View Full Version : Cam Swap Pointy?
squirrel_hunter
04-03-11, 09:45 PM
We've all heard about the curvy cam swap, I've even done it. But what about a cam swap for the pointy?
I've heard about it before but weecorey's for sale add reminded me, whats the deal? Apparently its put the curvy intakes into the pointy exhaust. But what about getting the timing right which marks do you use, anybody got a good picture like the one used for the curvy? What are the power gains etc?
Just interested really as I think I have a couple of curvy cams that aren't doing much and I know of a pointy engine that I'd like to mess with...
It is exactly same as on curvy except you don't touch intake cams.
Nobbylad
05-03-11, 05:51 AM
Is there any benefit though?
squirrel_hunter
05-03-11, 10:18 AM
It is exactly same as on curvy except you don't touch intake cams.
So you use the same picture to get the timing marks set up correctly?
http://www.hostile-takeover.com/mackeystingray/SVcamswap/03intake-front.jpghttp://www.hostile-takeover.com/mackeystingray/SVcamswap/03intake-rear.jpg
You using same cams in same places on both bikes so marks are same.
squirrel_hunter
05-03-11, 08:06 PM
Cheers Zadar. Might have a go at this soon then...
_Stretchie_
05-03-11, 11:35 PM
Ha haaa, it's funny because I know who owns the guinea pig bike....
So do I .... And that's why it's not funny :(
Nobbylad
26-11-11, 12:04 PM
Is there any benefit though?
Not as much as on curvy.
Does anyone know if there is any benefit of doing this?
Seems like it would make good sense for pointy owners all over the land to be swapping cams with their curvy cousins if there was.
If there is any benefit at all, I'd have a set available to swap with a curvy owner.
Nobbylad
29-11-11, 11:07 AM
Does anyone know the benefits?
Squirrel_hunter - did you do this and if so, was there any noticeable difference?
squirrel_hunter
29-11-11, 01:46 PM
Not got round to doing this yet. It's not my bike that its going in you see, its BaP's bike. But I have the cams for it ready. As for the difference to be sure we would need to Dyno it before and after so will see whats possible, however it won't be any time soon as the bike in question is parked up at the moment.
SVXR650
29-11-11, 11:50 PM
You using same cams in same places on both bikes so marks are same.
Correct me if I am wrong...
1st Gen SV650 uses 2nd Gen Intake cams on intake, and 1st Gen Intake Cams on Exhaust...
This makes about 4 horse power to 1st Gen SV650...
2nd Gen SV650 uses 1st Gen Intake Cams on exhaust...
This makes about 2-3 horse power to 2nd Gen S650...
If you get the adjustable cam sprockets and degree the cams, you get the most power available....
Getting the Bored Out Throttle bodies and removing secondary butterflies makes about 3 horse power on the 2nd Gen SV650... Installing better injectors helps atomize fuel better...
Removing the lid of the air box is bad... Removing the intake snorkel does not help make more power... Installing a SV1000 snorkel does help a little... Velocity stacks do help funnel the air in...
:D Luis
Correct me if I am wrong...
1st Gen SV650 uses 2nd Gen Intake cams on intake, and 1st Gen Intake Cams on Exhaust...
2nd Gen SV650 uses 1st Gen Intake Cams on exhaust...
If you get the adjustable cam sprockets and degree the cams, you get the most power available....
Removing the lid of the air box is bad...
You are not wrong, you just repeated what I said. You will not get 3hp on 2nd gen, maybe 1-2.
Cam degree will move power around in different rpm's, not necessary give you more power.
Why is it bad to remove lid?
SVXR650
30-11-11, 02:28 AM
Well when installing the intake cams on exhaust, you can not use the existing intake marks for exhaust markers...
At least it is the way I understand it...
As far as removing the top lid is bad because you are reducing the volume of the airbox and killing the resonance engineered into it... The ultimate test is Dyno results... If the numbers go down it is bad in my book...
:D Luis
Nobody said you can. It is said to use same marks for both gen bikes using same cam combo.
Dyno is not ultimate test, just like you can't test ram air on dyno. Or like perfect fuel/air mixture shown on dyno may not be the best when riding. Ultimate test is riding on road with real world conditions.
SVXR650
30-11-11, 04:30 AM
Unfortunately, you can not verify results from a test ride... Dyno-butt lies!!!
The Dyno gives you fact numbers, you can change settings and verify results are positive or negative...
Air/fuel mixture can be verified under load on a Dyno from exhaust gasses, a correct air/fuel mixture assures efficient burning engine that produces the most Power...
Of course the bike in question must be in excellent mechanical conditions before and after the upgrades in question...
I am sorry if I fail to see how the Dyno is not the best tool to measure power output... Most people will not be able to notice 2-3 horse power increase from a test ride...
That is why real bikes have data loggers. You think world level racing guys are spending hours on dyno tuning their bikes :)
Dyno is good tool but not tell it all. You can have perfect fuel/air graph on dyno and have on/off switch for throttle. Sometime you have to tune it different than dyno tells you.
SVXR650
30-11-11, 06:45 AM
A 85 horse power SV650 hardly compares to a World SBK... :D
How many SV650 do you think run Data Logging capabilities?
How many SV650 use traction control or anti wheelie control?
I do joke around saying that my SV650 has traction control... When people ask me what brand is it, I reply: It is called "80 horse power" :D
It would be nice if Suzuki gave us a revised SV850cc and a big mama SV1200cc... But I do not see that happening!!!
It looks more likely that the Gladius will come with half fairings and replace the SV650S...
:D Luis
Do you even have clue what you arguing? :)
You could not figure what marks on cams we talking about and you bringing traction and wheelie control.
How about sticking to subject and showing your extensive dyno tuning without airbox lid?
SV650Racer
30-11-11, 03:26 PM
Airboxes: worth a read if you have a spare few minutes or so:
http://motorcycleinfo.calsci.com/Airboxes.html
Nobbylad
30-11-11, 03:58 PM
Airboxes: worth a read if you have a spare few minutes or so:
http://motorcycleinfo.calsci.com/Airboxes.html
Interesting...thanks for sharing.
Notice header on that article, it say theory.
In real world you may not have perfect air box and your bike may run better without it. Only way to know is not by reading articles but to try.
You can take complete air box of and put individual filters on carbs, tune it to compensate for change and gain power everywhere and have better running bike.
If it was simple calculation all bikes would run perfect :)
SV650Racer
30-11-11, 05:48 PM
Yes it gives the theory behind airboxes and how they work. It doesnt say you cant modify them. I posted it up because alot of people dont realise how they can or do work.
davegixer1300r
01-12-11, 09:01 PM
Notice header on that article, it say theory.
In real world you may not have perfect air box and your bike may run better without it. Only way to know is not by reading articles but to try.
You can take complete air box of and put individual filters on carbs, tune it to compensate for change and gain power everywhere and have better running bike.
If it was simple calculation all bikes would run perfect :)
Yes but by doing the math you can reasonably work out what you could expect to gain or lose before trying it
Yes but by doing the math you can reasonably work out what you could expect to gain or lose before trying it
How you going to calculate your gain by removing air box?
How you calculate how much hot air from radiator enters snorkel? Or how much oil mist enters air box through crankcase vent.
My point is you can't just say that removing air box will take away or add hp by reading article on air box principles. You have to test it, it is only way.
SVXR650
02-12-11, 12:25 AM
Do you even have clue what you arguing? :)
You could not figure what marks on cams we talking about and you bringing traction and wheelie control.
How about sticking to subject and showing your extensive dyno tuning without airbox lid?
Well I did not do the dyno runs... But, I trust the person that did the dyno runs...
If you lose power on the dyno... Do you expect to do the same thing to other SV650 and have different results?
:D Luis
But, I trust the person that did the dyno runs...
Sounds like personal problem :)
SVXR650
02-12-11, 03:00 AM
Oh yeah... I forgot you do not trust dyno results...
But, if you have a better way to make a bit more power out of an SV650... Share what you have!!!
:D Luis
I never said I don't trust dyno.
However I can say I don't trust what you say :)
davegixer1300r
02-12-11, 06:34 PM
I am sure a lot of race teams would be very interested in employing you as they get rid of a lot of very over paid techinicians they obviously do not not need.
And you can measure air speed and temperature flowing into carburretors actually. The system collectively is called telemetry. Everyday cars use it along with modern motorcyles in fact they need it to run their fuel injection. A couple of These sensors are called Mass Air Flow [MAff] and Air temperature sensors along with a whole host of other clever little senors.
Like I originally said you can use the Math to predict an out come that can then be proven.
From what you say obviously the fastest bike on track is the more powerfull, rider skill aside, of course.
davegixer1300r
02-12-11, 06:47 PM
Sorry Rant Over Had bad day should not take it out on here I appologise
Good on you for apologising Dave. Have a beer.
Your first paragraph on post 31 made me ROFL though. :smt082
I am sure a lot of race teams would be very interested in employing you as they get rid of a lot of very over paid techinicians they obviously do not not need.
And you can measure air speed and temperature flowing into carburretors actually. The system collectively is called telemetry. Everyday cars use it along with modern motorcyles in fact they need it to run their fuel injection. A couple of These sensors are called Mass Air Flow [MAff] and Air temperature sensors along with a whole host of other clever little senors.
Like I originally said you can use the Math to predict an out come that can then be proven.
From what you say obviously the fastest bike on track is the more powerfull, rider skill aside, of course.
Already employed :)
You just said same thing I did, you can use electronics and sensors to measure everything in real world. Which is why teams do have technicians at track. How many have dyno at track?
ps. there is none of this sensors on curvy.
Nobbylad
03-12-11, 12:17 AM
Anyone want to swap their curvy cams for some pointy ones?
SVXR650
03-12-11, 05:47 AM
And this thread is about Pointies... (2003 and up fuel injected SV650)
I can see people use the Flat Slides carburetors with pod filters on Curvies...
We all know how sensitive the Flat Slides can be to elevation and temperature variations...
This is not something we see on 2nd Gen SV650... A good dyno run on a hot dry day will assure a good result on an average day...
Most guys racing an SV650 do not have a team behind them...
:D Luis
This thread is about cam swap, remember the thing you said we can't use same marks.
You also said dyno is ultimate test which I don't agree. Ultimate test is real world conditions that can not be duplicated on dyno.
You can also run pods on pointy and gain power. Been there done that. From all the set ups you can do I had the best result with lid removed. ymmv.
SV650Racer
03-12-11, 09:25 AM
LOL guys handbags down. Everyone has a differing opinion as to what works respect that please.
We have done alot of testing on various airboxes on the dyno (yes have seen a difference on all of them) and tested on track (yes have felt a difference on all of them)...we have now found what works best for us.
The funniest one which worked along with the theory I linked to was on my Ducati. Running a supposed performance air filter in the airbox with aftermarket air scoops made the bike feel on track strangled. On the dyno it lost 5bhp!. Running stock airtubes and stock filters gave the urgency back on track and the bhp back on the dyno. Strangely the fueling didnt alter much at all between the 2 but by god could you feel it!. Performance filter binned. Duke airboxes are very sensitive to volume and resonance. Yet so many duke owners wont listen and insist on if it says performance it must be better!..sometimes stock can be a better option.
SVXR650
03-12-11, 09:47 AM
What I said was that if you are to install intake cams on exhaust side, you can not use the marks on intake cams...
A Dyno gives you real numbers... Getting on your bike and going for a spin is not nearly as reliable... Dyno butt lies...
:D Luis
SV650Racer
03-12-11, 09:55 AM
^ I would disagree on one part that riding the bike aswell as using a dyno is the best way to tell if an improvement has been made as a dyno will show fueling and power, torque and gains but riding also backs up what the dyno is telling you.
Ok just riding and not using a dyno I agree is not ideal by a long way and butt dynos do tend to lie and cant tell you that the reason the bike pulls so strong at the top end is because its pulling out of the hole you have created in the midrange LOL.
^ I would disagree on one part that riding the bike aswell as using a dyno is the best way to tell if an improvement has been made as a dyno will show fueling and power, torque and gains but riding also backs up what the dyno is telling you.
You can also have dyno not backing up riding.
Tune pointy so your mixture is perfect. Now take throttles off and put set of flatslides on bike. You will have more power, better throttle response and faster bike. Put it on dyno and your mixture will not look as good as first one.
Just because dyno shows flat mixture across rpm's does not mean your bike will run perfect on track. It is common to end up with on/of switch for throttle.
This graph here shows pretty good map but bike is terrible to ride. It is nice and smooth once you are on throttle but when you go in to corner, downshift couple gear, closed throttle to the apex and than when you get back on there is hesitation. Bike bugs and than you open little more throttle and all sudden you get power kick.
http://i141.photobucket.com/albums/r71/twf164/r1.jpg
Or this one, why is power curve perfect and mixture bad?
http://i141.photobucket.com/albums/r71/twf164/dynorun2002sparemotor.jpg
SV650Racer
03-12-11, 10:24 AM
Carbs and FI react very differently hence why we also ride aswell as dyno specifically on bikes with carbs, especially flatslides, you know that anyway.
FI is the future LOL
SV650Racer
03-12-11, 10:49 AM
First graph is FI.
Thats a full throttle run?. Whats it show on loaded part throttle runs?.
Thats a full throttle run?. Whats it show on loaded part throttle runs?.
I don't know, did not tune bike. I rode it and it was bad so I called guys that tuned bike and they sent me dyno print out.
The point is that print out looks good but bike runs bad. I found problems riding bike which are not present when bike is on dyno.
In this case bike will go back to mapping and than tried again, repeat until bike is ridable. Dyno will be used as tool to see change and what end result will be which does not have to be dyno's ideal line.
If dyno is ultimate test what would be point of having 2 or 3 different maps on bike that you can switch between?
yorkie_chris
03-12-11, 10:00 PM
Dyno could be an ultimate test, you could do transitions and roll-ons etc but it would be a bit of a bugger to program for. Easier to just print one sheet of paper eh :P
SV650Racer
03-12-11, 10:58 PM
Look at the fueling on a loaded part throttle run. that will show exactly what's happening. the print outs only really show bhp / torque or what people want to see but aren't indicative to how the bikes ridden. part throttle runs show a truer picture and are more relative to real riding. bet the fueling way off on them.
It is not part throttle that is problem, it is closed throttle :)
Dyno could be an ultimate test,
Maybe but if you tune it today on dyno and next day ride in rain your ultimate dyno map (if such thing exists) may not be hot ticket :)
Ultimate test is lap time, at least in racing :)
SVXR650
04-12-11, 03:25 AM
I think you may be misunderstanding a Dyno Tune, with just a Dyno Run...
A Dyno Run does not change anything to the bike... It Just shows where the bike is at... Part of a Dyno Tune is making a Dyno Run to see the differences from and to... For a Dyno Tune, the Engine Builder / Tuner checks and adjust the Air Fuel mixture from idle to full throttle, at 5% throttle opening intervals under load... Then he prints out a Dyno Run and inspects it... From there, he goes back and tunes, adjust to make a smooth throttle response at any given point on the RPM range...
At the end, you end up with a bike that it's smooth a silk to ride... With optimized air fuel ratio and maximum power from the combination of power upgrades you have on your bike... A good Dyno Tuner can do a custom map in a few runs...
You can not do this from riding, and a screw driver or wrench... You can tweak your own bike, an probably get it to where you think it rides nice... A good engine tuner can make it ride even better with a Dynamometer... Maybe you have had bad experiences with an incompetent Engine Builder / Tuner... Just saying.
There is probably 20 shops in Arizona that claim to have Dyno Tuners... I trust only one... and, it is not the shop.... It is the guy that works there I trust... He is good!!!
As for the guy who tested the SV650 with and without snorkels, he is Zoran Vujasinovic from TWF Racing... www.twfracing.com
:D Luis
As for the guy who tested the SV650 with and without snorkels
Did he tell you to run snorkel? If yes he is bs you because he runs with no lid. :)
yorkie_chris
04-12-11, 10:19 AM
I think you may be misunderstanding a Dyno Tune, with just a Dyno Run...
Knowing zadar and sv650racer, I really doubt it.
SV650Racer
04-12-11, 01:50 PM
^ lol
squirrel_hunter
28-12-11, 05:18 PM
So with the general consensus being the Cam Swap on a Pointy will give a couple of horses it was about time to perform the operation. So I found a spare set of Curvy Cams in my back passage and conveyed them to BaP's for experimentation. So here is a little step by step of the progress should anyone be interested...
http://i153.photobucket.com/albums/s216/squirrel_hunters_photos/Cam%20Swap%20Pointy/IMG-20111227-00540.jpg
The test subject.
http://i153.photobucket.com/albums/s216/squirrel_hunters_photos/Cam%20Swap%20Pointy/IMG-20111227-00543.jpg
We removed the tank, air box and radiator to get to the front cylinder and cam chain tensioner
http://i153.photobucket.com/albums/s216/squirrel_hunters_photos/Cam%20Swap%20Pointy/IMG-20111227-00545.jpg
With the valve cover removed the original cams were exposed.
http://i153.photobucket.com/albums/s216/squirrel_hunters_photos/Cam%20Swap%20Pointy/IMG-20111227-00546.jpg
The Curvy cam is then marked up using the pictures from post #5 (http://forums.sv650.org/showpost.php?p=2495479&postcount=5).
http://i153.photobucket.com/albums/s216/squirrel_hunters_photos/Cam%20Swap%20Pointy/IMG-20111227-00549.jpg
And then the Pointy exhaust cam is replaced with the Curvy in let cam.
http://i153.photobucket.com/albums/s216/squirrel_hunters_photos/Cam%20Swap%20Pointy/IMG-20111227-00553.jpg
With the front complete the rear was then swapped.
The bike was then reassembled and fired up. Unfortunately no before or after test as the bike is currently SORN but in a couple of weeks time BaP will get it back on the road and is looking forward to a 50% in crease in power, I suspect he will be slightly disappointed.
This was the first time I'd done this on a Pointy and the first time I'd played around so much with a SV engine in the frame. Most of the work was straight forward apart from the cam chain tensioner's. I knew Suzuki changed the design but I didn't realize that the change was so different. I was hoping we could just take the tension off to replace the cam but had to take the whole tensioner out which I wasn't expecting.
http://i153.photobucket.com/albums/s216/squirrel_hunters_photos/Cam%20Swap%20Pointy/IMG-20111227-00552.jpg
I also wasn't expecting the pain the rear tensioner gave us. There is very little access to it and after removing the rear wheel, the mud flap, we had to remove the suspension linkage to drop the swing arm out of the way.
According to Haynes only the rear wheel need be removed. But fear not it sounds worse then it is. Its still a pain to access, so if anyone has any better suggestions please say? The great book of lies also makes no mention of the difference in tensioner design or the difference in Cam between the models. Oh and clearances were checked on assembly, all within tolerance.
But I couldn't write all of this without including the following photo...
http://i153.photobucket.com/albums/s216/squirrel_hunters_photos/Cam%20Swap%20Pointy/IMG-20111227-00554.jpg
This is BaP screwing the rear plug back in. Nothing notable there apart from the fact it would not tighten. This left BaP confused. But eventually he realized the reason. He was attempting to insert it upside down.
Rear tensioner is easy on pointy. Usually I will just unbolt rearset to get hand in there. You only need to take out 12mm plunger, not whole tensioner.
maviczap
28-12-11, 07:05 PM
Now you tell him :p
I shall point out that, although I concede I did have the plug in upside down, I did do the rear tensioner. Utter pain
squirrel_hunter
28-12-11, 09:55 PM
Rear tensioner is easy on pointy. Usually I will just unbolt rearset to get hand in there. You only need to take out 12mm plunger, not whole tensioner.
We did take the rearset off but couldn't get a clean enough angle on the mounting bolts as the swing arm prevented a clean line to the bolt head and we didn't want to risk rounding it. I think this might be due to the GSXR1000 shock thats on the bike as I think it changed the ride hight slightly and thus the angle of the arm even when not under load.
However if you take the 12mm bolt out and then the spring, would the tensioner not still be under tension? I thought it was a ratchet mechanism with the release being within the engine when the tensioner is mounted?
yorkie_chris
28-12-11, 11:35 PM
I have no idea how you are making it such hard work. 1/4" ratchet, middlin' sized extension, dead easy :confused::confused:
squirrel_hunter
28-12-11, 11:52 PM
I have no idea how you are making it such hard work.
Its a talent of mine?
1/4" ratchet, middlin' sized extension, dead easy :confused::confused:
Didn't have 1/4" drive with a matching hex bit with us to do the mounting bolts, but taking the 12mm bolt out was easy. We were using 3/8th and a verity of extensions. However it didn't appear possible to release the tension without removing the whole tensioner assembly?
yorkie_chris
28-12-11, 11:54 PM
You can't release the tension but you can stop it from pinging out to full tension by removing spring.
squirrel_hunter
28-12-11, 11:56 PM
Would that still give enough slack in the chain to enable the removal of the cam?
However if you take the 12mm bolt out and then the spring, would the tensioner not still be under tension? I thought it was a ratchet mechanism with the release being within the engine when the tensioner is mounted?
Ratchet mechanism can be released very easy by pushing on little part that locks it in. You just use screwdriver or similar and push on it from top, right next to cam sprocket. Push back side of it down and than push on can chain between sprockets which will push tensioner back. That is all tension you need to release to get cams out.
I do same on curvy, take 10mm bolt out of tensioner, use screwdriver to wind it and than hold cam chain between sprockets down. Insert little tool and tension is released. I never take whole tensioner out except front on curvy.
Did/has any one ever tried/done the swap of the curvy intake cams onto a pointy exhaust outlet?
I have a the curvy cams ready to go in.....just what to do now? Is it really worth it?
squirrel_hunter
21-04-12, 02:41 PM
As documented here me and BaP did it to his bike. Unfortunately no results to present. The bike is still on SORN as the silly boy bought a house and got a proper job. I am disappoint. However if you have the kit, the know how (not that any lack off stopped us), and the will then go for it...
Could you expand on 'know how'? :s
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