Unable to leave history in the past... [Archive] - SV650.org

SoulKiss

14-03-11, 08:15 AM

Spinning this off from the Japan Earthquake/Tsunami thread so as not to de-rail it

Am following this nuclear business with interest. It just gets worse and worse. After FIL's awful experiences at the hands of the Japanese at the end of WW2 I have tried to avoid Japanese stuff - yes I bought a SV and a Hornet - but this shows how silly all that is - they are people, cut them they bleed, just like us - and they need help.

What does that actually do or prove?

If a product has ANY chips in it made in Japan then you are buying Japanese, same as your TV or Microwave.

Is it only things MADE in Japan, or do you extend this to itms that are made from ideas and concepts developed in Japan, even if made in another country by a company in no way connected to Japan?

How about if you need life-saving surgery, but the technique was pioneered and developed by a Japanese doctor?

Ed, I have thought similar things tbh, not my opinion but I bet a lot of people mistreated in ww2 by the japs see this as a bit of karma?

Its been 65 years since the end of the war, how many little old 85 year old Japanese men got their "just deserts" the other day?

How many of the dead were women and children who's only connection to the war is that their Great Grandfather died when Hiroshima happened?

Its holding on to stuff like this, things that didn't affect us directly, that fuels on-going ill-feelings and problems.

Milky Bar Kid

14-03-11, 08:20 AM

I have to say, I fully agree with SK here.

Someone the other day made a comment to me about Pearl Harbour and I laughed in their face. These people affected now but the earthquake and tsunami have nothing to do with Pearl Harbour, no more than you and I have anything to do with the Iraq war or whatever.

timwilky

14-03-11, 08:23 AM

SoulKiss

14-03-11, 08:29 AM

My mother actively avoided Japanese product as she had a brother and two close family die in Burma.

What the Japs did to prisoners of war was inhumane and there is a generation of mainly elderly who remember their loved ones not coming home and the stories of those that did. You cannot blame them.

We live in a more enlightened world, but the atrocities did happen and many believe they were conveniently swept under the carpet.

No, I cannot blame them, and yes these things happened and must NEVER be forgotten.

I would even argue that its valid for you to have similar feelings and attitude.

Your kids however?

Forgive and Forget?

Well forgive anyway, lets not forget it so that the memory stops a repeat of these things.

14-03-11, 08:36 AM

SoulKiss

14-03-11, 08:45 AM

Then David you might as well ask about events closer to home - the Battle of the Boyne, 12 July no??? - and a whole host of other events in Scottish and Irish history which are still commemorated today.

I'm with TW on this.

But the whole point of what I wrote was that these people are suffering - terribly - and having a rather blinkered approach doesn't help.

I fully accept your point - you did after all say "but this shows how silly all that is".

MY point was how even after so much time has passed, no matter what the event was, then yes remember it, but don't perpetuate the hate.

The people who did the bad things, and indeed even the regimes under which they were commited have changed.

Oh and I had to look up that Boyne thing, everyone knows that the history is a sham and it was actually Davepreston that started it - and ended it :p

Seriously on that one tho, its a good example of how arguments about Invisible Friends can get out of hand.

Also that one has never really finished in some peoples eyes, with the conflict being ongoing.

davepreston

14-03-11, 08:54 AM

wheres the dam popcorn giff when you need it

ps careful ed my boy lol

Lozzo

14-03-11, 08:57 AM

As I've owned a multitude of Japanese bikes, cars and other products it's never been a problem, but when I was a small child living in Singapore the legacy of the Japanese occupation was still there for all to see walking the streets with limbs missing and disfigured faces. I've seen first hand what the Japanese did to the local population 20 years after the war ended and read books like 'The Naked Island' and 'End of a Hate' by Russell Braddon to know what the occupying soldiers involved were capable of.

My father refused to buy a Japanese car or much in the way of electrical goods until 1996, 30 years after we'd gone to Singapore, because as an adult he'd obviously seen and heard about more atrocities than we as kids had. I'm guessing the older generation take more convincing that the current generation of Japanese aren't to blame for the sins of their fathers, and our generation are far more tolerant, forgiving of this sort of thing and more likely to build bridges between us and countries who have committed these type of acts.

Anyone who claims this is Japan getting divine retribution for WW2 is an idiot. If that's the case, when can Britain and America expect their natural disasters in payment for the atomic bomb and the effect it had on the mainly civilian population of Hiroshima, Nagasaki and the surrounding areas?

21QUEST

14-03-11, 09:02 AM

I very much agree with what SK has written.

Thing is, we must remember, there are not many(if any) nations that can claim to the righteous.

I am pretty sure there are some people from other countries/continents who could argue along such lines ith regards to atrocities they believe/deem/know to have been commited by another set of humans...one example could be 'The Great British Empire' .

War I'm sure has allways been brutal and brutal actions have been carried out by all parties that have been involved. We might argue and refer to "elightended times" but the "fundamentals" of war could be argued, as reverting back to "primal" .....

The Idle Biker

14-03-11, 09:07 AM

A few years back I went to Burma, while I was there I visited the Death Railway and a Museum set up to honour the Allied troops. The Museum was so poignant full of heartbreaking and horrific stories. The place was a reconstruction of the huts and conditions the troops were made to stay in and were tortured in.

I stayed there all day and the only race of tourists that didn't respect the solemnity of the place were the Japanese. I promise you they chattered and laughed and took photos all over the place like it was Disney World.

I also worked in Japan for a spell and I sensed no sense of national regret about WW2 there. So I sympathise totally what happened in Japan last week, but I do try and avoid Japanese products too, albeit an almost impossible task.

keithd

14-03-11, 09:30 AM

I also worked in Japan for a spell and I sensed no sense of national regret about WW2 there. So I sympathise totally what happened in Japan last week, but I do try and avoid Japanese products too, albeit an almost impossible task.

Im really struggling with that sentence. How do you sense national regret? Are you expecting weekly buletins on the tv or radio saying they deeply regret the past? or is it the polar opposite and there are weekly celebrations of their atrocities? Maybe, much like the Germans, they have moved on.

Bibio

14-03-11, 09:35 AM

to be honest i think Ed was trying to make the point of 'forgive and forget' with his statement. but boycotting goods on the grounds of 'your brother beat up my cousin 20 years ago' attitude is a bit archaic these days. after all its not as though the British haven't committed any atrocities now is it.

carelesschucca

14-03-11, 09:37 AM

And our country is a pure as the fresh snow!!! We've never committed any crimes against humanity... EVER!!!

timwilky

14-03-11, 09:49 AM

What happens north of the border, stays north of the border;)

Of course we have reasons to hang our collective heads in shame. but I would have thought in the 20th century we were a much enlightened nation. We had signed up for rules as how we would treat prisoners and expected our opponents to "play" by the same rules. However to their shame, they did not.

Modern Japan, like modern Germany is a different country to that before the the wars of the 20th century. However both of them share a legacy that some of their great industrial companies made use of slave labour and the management failed to stop the associated brutality taking place on their premises.

Quedos

14-03-11, 09:50 AM

Stuuk1

14-03-11, 09:57 AM

I stayed there all day and the only race of tourists that didn't respect the solemnity of the place were the Japanese. I promise you they chattered and laughed and took photos all over the place like it was Disney World.

Errr don't all Japanese / Chinese people do this? They are obsessed with laughing and cameras. Their other obsession is with pigeons, it's very odd... While working in London for the few years I did all I saw was them photographing pigeons or picking up the odd pigeon feather, showing everyone, laughing at it then taking a photo of that to.

The Idle Biker

14-03-11, 09:58 AM

Im really struggling with that sentence. How do you sense national regret? Are you expecting weekly buletins on the tv or radio saying they deeply regret the past? or is it the polar opposite and there are weekly celebrations of their atrocities? Maybe, much like the Germans, they have moved on.

Course not, it's hard to sum up in an internet post. Lot's of isolated personal experiences like for instance - one group of middle management lackies I visited had paintings of Kamakazi Zero fighters planes around their boardroom. I really didn't like much about the culture in Japan at all. Happy for them to move on, just hope they don't forget.

thedonal

14-03-11, 09:59 AM

For f**ks sake- if you look back far enough (and it only needs to be 100-200 years in some cases), every country has pretty much committed atrocities on someone- whether it's within their own borders or outside that (ie an extended part of an empire).

Do you think the British have a squeaky clean history?

The USA?

Jeez- just drop it. Stop blaming people for the sins of their ancestors.

What's happened in Japan is really, truly awful- think of your own home town being swept away by the sea. People just like you and me.

Unbelievable.

keithd

14-03-11, 10:02 AM

Calm down Donal! Its a debate, and nobody is saying anything other than how awful the situation is over there.

SoulKiss

14-03-11, 10:02 AM

Course not, it's hard to sum up in an internet post. Lot's of isolated personal experiences like for instance - one group of middle management lackies I visited had paintings of Kamakazi Zero fighters planes around their boardroom. I really didn't like much about the culture in Japan at all. Happy for them to move on, just hope they don't forget.

So how about our Government supporting flights of Spitfires up the Thames?

Or the guys that privately fund the preservation of various other warplanes?

thedonal

14-03-11, 10:17 AM

Calm down Donal! Its a debate, and nobody is saying anything other than how awful the situation is over there.

Fair point.

Guess I'm just a bit fired up about it!

But I do get riled about such things...(and don't wish to belittle anyone's family's experiences either)

SoulKiss

14-03-11, 10:19 AM

Calm down Donal! Its a debate, and nobody is saying anything other than how awful the situation is over there.

I think you will find thats the other thread :p

The Idle Biker

14-03-11, 10:22 AM

So how about our Government supporting flights of Spitfires up the Thames?

Or the guys that privately fund the preservation of various other warplanes?

I think that's fine, from a historical perspective and remembering the bravery of the people that fought. I also think it's good to remember how our troops taken prisoner were systematically, brutally tortured, starved and killed.

(I would also question the taste of someone who had pictures of the Fire Bombing of Dresden on their wall).

Lozzo

14-03-11, 10:38 AM

So how about our Government supporting flights of Spitfires up the Thames?

Or the guys that privately fund the preservation of various other warplanes?

<Sarcky mode on>

But we won the war so we're allowed to be proud and jingoistic

</SM>

davepreston

14-03-11, 10:41 AM

Yeah and come to glasgow during marching season and see the hassles with it. I wish that they could be forgotten but hey there will always be blinkers no matter what generation because people think that its okay to continue it.

We should consider ourselves luck in a sense that we don't have major natural disasters otherwise we may find ourselves without much help at all.
whole new can of worms there love and one to be avoided on here, especially with me "in" this thread too :)

timwilky

14-03-11, 10:44 AM

SoulKiss

14-03-11, 10:50 AM

I think that's fine, from a historical perspective and remembering the bravery of the people that fought. I also think it's good to remember how our troops taken prisoner were systematically, brutally tortured, starved and killed.

(I would also question the taste of someone who had pictures of the Fire Bombing of Dresden on their wall).

I have to say that for some reason I read the description as Kawasaki Zero's rather than Kamakazi.

However that doesnt change much - those pilots were brave men, who gave their lives for their country.

The fact that they were sent into the war as an invasionary force (not at all like our guys in Iraq/Afganistan of course) doesn't mean that everything that every Japanese soldier/pilot/sailor was wrong.

I have spent a very short time in Japan, literally a couple of days in Osaka, but I realised from that time that they see the world VERY differently than we do in the west, and that there may even be an ingrained xenophobia (rather than racism) but there is also a great national pride.

What there also is, is a HUGE amount of flexibility, Osaka Castle was all but flattened in the 40's. The Japanese just rebuilt it, just like the original BUT they also made some interesting modernising decisions due to its role as a museum. They built lifts into the central column and put escalators in.

As said, end of the day people are dead, people have lost family members, and from my experiences in Osaka, I know that they can be extremely kind, courteous and friendly people, even when there is no means of communication, I ended up staying in an area where English was not understood, and my Japanese was even worse.

Quedos

14-03-11, 11:08 AM

whole new can of worms there love and one to be avoided on here, especially with me "in" this thread too :)

i'm sure your not that bad besides I'm not that fussed on the whole thing but we'll keep th e love going that this thread is showing!!:smt048

metalmonkey

14-03-11, 11:14 AM

I have spoken to my grandparents about the war alot growing up, what happened then I think is beyond most words...not matter what side you were on.

I have been working flat out, working on the road so today is really the first news reports I have seen I wouldn't wish what has happened in Japan on anyone, it is not pay back either if you think that well says alot about you as a person.

We should never forget what has happened so the same mistakes never happen again. But people should be judged on their actions in the present we all need to move foward to work togther.

Quedos

14-03-11, 11:18 AM

I wondered how many on here would boycott McD's and other americans then for their part in friendly fire and torture of prisoners. which have resulted in deaths of british soliders - or is that part of war these days.

I don't get the whole ethos - why we should boycott anyone for things have been done in the past in a time of war. I don't say forget but stop dragging it on make sure we remember but we remember in context on why it was being fought.
It may be playing nasty comparable to now but back them it was different.

now the exception is the older generation who were involved in it I can see them never forgiving - the same as I can see people in Iraq not forgiving sections becuase of their actions. the stories need to live but the hatred and narrowmindness needs to stop at the next generation who were not directly involved. ( if you get my drift)

14-03-11, 11:26 AM

How many on here boycott Israeli goods because of the way the Israelis treat Palestinians?

*Puts hand up*

Lozzo

14-03-11, 11:28 AM

How many on here boycott Israeli goods because of the way the Israelis treat Palestinians?

*Puts hand up*

<Puts hand up too>

I used to boycott French goods when their striking truck drivers were stopping British lorries and setting fire to British food products. Took me years to start buying things like Michelin tyres

Fizzy Fish

14-03-11, 11:35 AM

Regardless of who has done what to whom and when, it never does any good for either side to hold onto grudges and negativity.

IMHO the only exception is when something is still ongoing, and therefore a boycott has the ability to influence events (e.g. the Palestine/Israel conflict)

Quedos

14-03-11, 11:38 AM

<Puts hand up too>

I used to boycott French goods when their striking truck drivers were stopping British lorries and setting fire to British food products. Took me years to start buying things like Michelin tyres

Nah we just boycott the French stuff becuase its French!:D
If i drink their wine its less for them to drink

Specialone

14-03-11, 11:39 AM

So how about our Government supporting flights of Spitfires up the Thames?

Or the guys that privately fund the preservation of various other warplanes?

Hardly the same is it dude ?
For a start, they started the war !!

On the whole we didn't mistreat our pow's !!

We won !!

A picture of a zero fighter on their wall isn't exactly showing remorse for their part is it ?

Finally, if we should all forget how come black people constantly remind us of slavery ? Shouldnt they just forget and move on ?

I just hope none of you have to endure what pow's had to back then, you might just feel different the next time a discussion on this is brought up.

Btw, I do think it's terrible what has happened over in japan, I do hope the death count doesn't keep rising as well.

Quedos

14-03-11, 11:45 AM

So what about POW's we had - they weren't kept in 5* hotels.

A zero fighter was their plane of war so why should they display it the same as we do with ours. We may have won the war but I bet (don't know for certain) that Japan won a few battles.

Most people are not saying forget - but lets have rememberance it in context.
I hope more over that nobody has to endure what everyone endured back then - not just those who decided that they wanted to fight for their country.

The Idle Biker

14-03-11, 11:52 AM

So what about POW's we had - they weren't kept in 5* hotels.

A zero fighter was their plane of war so why should they display it the same as we do with ours.

Compared to what our guys had to endure, I think we gave them 5* treatment

I should have explained, the paintings weren't portraits they were mainly "action shots" dive bombing ships and troops. Makes a difference to me at least.

21QUEST

14-03-11, 12:10 PM

Hardly the same is it dude ?
For a start, they started the war !!
What does that matter?...if we are so concerned with "moralistic nuances" , then sure, it matters not who started some war or who took up an apparent challenge.

On the whole we didn't mistreat our pow's !!
"On the whole"? ...so you couldn't categorically say, they weren't mistreated then?

We won !!

And that changes and makes all the difference? Are those deemed to be heroes supposedly only those from a victorious side?

A picture of a zero fighter on their wall isn't exactly showing remorse for their part is it ?

Because like it or not, to some people...perhaps even those that lost friends and family... those fighters were indeed heroes. That is not to say, they believed in all that took place. The concept of remorse is a pretty funny one, when we talk of war. All sides have only one thing in mind and I'd hazard a guess, it's not to be the vanquished.

Finally, if we should all forget how come black people constantly remind us of slavery ? Shouldnt they just forget and move on ?

Totally agree...once genuine, real and unequivocal remorse has been shown :p

I just hope none of you have to endure what pow's had to back then, you might just feel different the next time a discussion on this is brought up.

Humans are creatures of emotions but that is not to say, emotion driven responses/thoughts are necessarily make for a better way of living our lives. We would always have to make allowances for that but if we believe we do indeed become elightened as time goes on, then it's healthy to challenge that concept.

Btw, I do think it's terrible what has happened over in japan, I do hope the death count doesn't keep rising as well.
Amen!! to that

toxic

14-03-11, 12:17 PM

How many on here boycott Israeli goods because of the way the Israelis treat Palestinians?

*Puts hand up*

I don't. I buy lots of stuff made in Israel, being Jewish will do that I suppose.

21QUEST

14-03-11, 12:17 PM

Perhaps we should spend more time and effort kick starting our economy...by buying only British...do more good, won't it :D ;)

21QUEST

14-03-11, 12:27 PM

For possibly my last post on the thread, I'd post part of an earlier post from SK

I have spent a very short time in Japan, literally a couple of days in Osaka, but I realised from that time that they see the world VERY differently than we do in the west, and that there may even be an ingrained xenophobia (rather than racism) but there is also a great national pride.

That above is one of the most difficult concept for people in general to see and accept. Once that is done, then a better understanding of diiferences can be reached.

I don't know about anyone else but sure as hell freezes, in certain situations, even I, still have to remind myself of the above.

ETA: The concept I speak about is one which says "People are all different....."

Pedrosa

14-03-11, 02:59 PM

EVERY leading nation of today has some degree of barbarism in their history. Be it in civil or tirbal type wars or when acting as invading nations. Many instances are not just barbaric per sé, but the cases where thousands of men were lost in the mind numbing stupidity of head to head battles.

Yes Japan has a questionable past,(if we anger for the deeds done to Allied servicemen in WW2, trust me that melts in to insignificance compared with what they did to ordinary Chinese civilians when they invaded there during that same conflict.)

The Japanese do though have a very beautiful and truly cultured past and many aspects over the centuries have captivated the minds and souls of us westerners.

Yet what we are all hankering on about is HISTORY, which is there for us all to learn from in the hope that misdeeds, bad judgements and outright mistakes are never repeated. History though is open to interpretation and re-application to suit any individual or collective ends.

(Think my entire post offered no value at all really!:confused:)

metalangel

14-03-11, 03:16 PM

No Pedrosa, it's a good post.

The past is in the past. Learn from it, don't forget it, and ensure you don't allow it to repeat itself.

thulfi

14-03-11, 03:51 PM

Boycotting Japs or saying this natural disaster is retribution for WWII is ludicrous. Two of my favourite quotes relating to war;

"There are no winners in wars, only losers".
"War is young men dying and old men talking".

Japanese civilians suffered a huge amount due to the atomic bombs, not just when it happened but many decades after with radiation poisoning and cancers etc. They got it worse than the Germans who committed many more atrocities.

Either way, as much as humans have a strong sense of national identity, we are all humans and never like seeing anybody suffering. The scenes in Japan were truly horrific, but to even have the thought that this is there 'come-uppence' truly baffles me.

Anybody watch The Pacific recently? It shows you that at times of war you're not fighting for your country but yourself. It's just you and your rifle and it's either kill or be killed. Doesn't matter what side you're on, because the 19year trooper only has one thing on his mind - to survive and return to his family.