View Full Version : Death by Dangerous Driving... on a rideout
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-12730242
All have been charged with causing death by dangerous driving!
Not guilty yet obviously... but if they are found guilty thats 5 years for each of them :o
I don't know the story obvioulsy but it sounds rediculous.
Worth stopping for an accident you were not directly involved in? at the risk of somehow being implicated?
Luckypants
14-03-11, 01:52 PM
Not enough information in that snippet to know what was going on, so we will have to wait for the details to come out before commenting.
I will say they would not have been charged if CPS did not think there was a good chance of conviction
SoulKiss
14-03-11, 01:53 PM
Not enough information in that snippet to know what was going on, so we will have to wait for the details to come out before commenting.
I will say they would not have been charged if CPS did not think there was a good chance of conviction
+1
Much more cause for concern is the awful editing skills at the BBC these days...
"Four of men, aged 26, 28, 29 and 31, have each been charged with two counts of causing death by dangerous driving."
Dave20046
14-03-11, 02:09 PM
Was also going to post this but at a glance I couldn't work out if the 4 men were in the car they hit or other bikers (that was how I read it at first but thought it too ridiculous to be possible). Unless they can prove they were racing that's an impossible conviction .
SoulKiss
14-03-11, 02:20 PM
Was also going to post this but at a glance I couldn't work out if the 4 men were in the car they hit or other bikers (that was how I read it at first but thought it too ridiculous to be possible). Unless they can prove they were racing that's an impossible conviction .
I am guessing that the 4 being charged caused the car to hit the 2 bikers that they were riding with and who died.
Or going from the ghost of a memory about some new law posted on here a while back, if all the vikers were speeding and were considered to be to blame for the accident then dangerous driving could be thrown at them.
I'll watched with baited breath - only just came accross it too
Owenski
14-03-11, 02:55 PM
Is this not similar to something posted last year shortly before AR which said, all members of a group of riders will be charged for any offence which one is found guilty of? Someone with a better memory than mine will im sure be along to correct/post a link.
metalangel
14-03-11, 03:06 PM
It's not this (http://www.motorcyclenews.com/MCN/News/newsresults/General-news/2009/November/nov1909-speeding-penalty-for-leading-rideout/_/R-EPI-120282) you're thinking of, Owenski?
not really enough info to have a real opinion about it but there surely must be a bit more to this, theres no-way they would ALL be charged unless some real bad situation occured which lead to the crash.
i do really resent the fact the car driver had no insurance. that just really makes me mad, we all pay for our insurance, so why did he think he didnt have to.
Owenski
14-03-11, 03:22 PM
It's not this (http://www.motorcyclenews.com/MCN/News/newsresults/General-news/2009/November/nov1909-speeding-penalty-for-leading-rideout/_/R-EPI-120282) you're thinking of, Owenski?
Indeed I was, thank you :)
I can't see how a conviction for all them is going to be possible. There must be one hell of a lot of clear evidence around for them to be confident of being able to convict.
Luckypants
14-03-11, 03:32 PM
i do really resent the fact the car driver had no insurance. that just really makes me mad, we all pay for our insurance, so why did he think he didnt have to.Where does it say that? It says 4 have been done for causing death by dangerous driving and one has been done for causing death by dangerous driving while uninsured. No mention of a car...
Like previously said, just not enough detail in there to form informed opinion.
SoulKiss
14-03-11, 03:35 PM
not really enough info to have a real opinion about it but there surely must be a bit more to this, theres no-way they would ALL be charged unless some real bad situation occured which lead to the crash.
i do really resent the fact the car driver had no insurance. that just really makes me mad, we all pay for our insurance, so why did he think he didnt have to.
Wasn't the car driver that was uninsured, it was one of the bikers.
"North Yorkshire Police said all five men had been riding motorcycles at the time of the crash on 25 August.
Group of motorcycles
Four of men, aged 26, 28, 29 and 31, have each been charged with two counts of causing death by dangerous driving.
A 36-year-old man has been charged with two counts of causing death by dangerous driving and two counts of causing death by dangerous driving while uninsured."
SoulKiss
14-03-11, 03:36 PM
I can't see how a conviction for all them is going to be possible. There must be one hell of a lot of clear evidence around for them to be confident of being able to convict.
Or someone wanting to try out the legislation that Metalangel linked to before the season starts.
So I would guess that all the bikers were speeding. The last bike took a corner wide, hit the car, got thrown off and killed.
The 5 bikers in front were then charged as they had each been leading the last bike
maybe
Can I, at this early opportunity, ask that Irons and possibly also Ralph, be banned from this thread?
;)
SoulKiss
14-03-11, 03:45 PM
Can I, at this early opportunity, ask that Irons and possibly also Ralph, be banned from this thread?
;)
No you cant - we all ready have a Banning thread :p
Or someone wanting to try out the legislation that Metalangel linked to before the season starts.
So I would guess that all the bikers were speeding. The last bike took a corner wide, hit the car, got thrown off and killed.
The 5 bikers in front were then charged as they had each been leading the last bike
maybe
I still say they would have to have proof that each and every one of the bikers were speeding in the first place. We all know that positions change in a rideout. I just can't see this is ever going to end in a conviction. At least not in a conviction for all the riders under the charge stated. A lawyer would rip it apart. The only way I can see the police ever hoping to get a result was if a helicopter was videoing the whole thing and all the bikers.
not really enough info to have a real opinion about it but there surely must be a bit more to this, theres no-way they would ALL be charged unless some real bad situation occured which lead to the crash.
Really? You honestly thing logic comes into play when the CPS get involved with something. Think again.
You only have to look at how many obvious scumbags walk free without cases even going to court when the evidence is stacked up against them to see that the CPS are ar5es in many instances.
I can't see how a conviction for all them is going to be possible. There must be one hell of a lot of clear evidence around for them to be confident of being able to convict.
Or a barrister who can sensationalise the events to make it look like they deliberately conspired to kill the two who died. Don't put anything past a prosecuting council.
These four are pretty much screwed, because they've been hung drawn and quartered in the press before the case even gets a date set - they're bikers ffs, they must have been doing a million miles an hour in a village with a school within 10 miles of it. Guilty... hang them.
Can I, at this early opportunity, ask that Irons and possibly also Ralph, be banned from this thread?
;)
<jumps childishly up and down>
Ooh ooh... and me too?
Or someone wanting to try out the legislation that Metalangel linked to before the season starts.
So I would guess that all the bikers were speeding. The last bike took a corner wide, hit the car, got thrown off and killed.
The 5 bikers in front were then charged as they had each been leading the last bike
maybe
My defence would be he wasn't told at gun or knife point that he had to keep up. Everyone can ride their own ride and back off if they are outside their own comfort zone.
I fail to see where the death of a couple mean that nobody was at fault. If witness statements show that the bikers were speeding and/or riding dangerously, they'll have to prove they weren't in court.
Being charged is one thing, having it proven is another and witness testimony with no other evidence won't be good enough unless the witness is a copper/road safety expert.
<jumps childishly up and down>
Ooh ooh... and me too?
NO!
Although you argue, and at times churlishly, you do not go on and on and on, whilst missing the whole point.
YOU have to stay ;)
andrewsmith
14-03-11, 05:25 PM
Or a barrister who can sensationalise the events to make it look like they deliberately conspired to kill the two who died. Don't put anything past a prosecuting council.
These four are pretty much screwed, because they've been hung drawn and quartered in the press before the case even gets a date set - they're bikers ffs, they must have been doing a million miles an hour in a village with a school within 10 miles of it. Guilty... hang them.
That the problem with this case they've been all but convicted and the case hasn't reached the court.
This is the second case like this, there was another one a couple of years back. They got off (if i remember rightly) but they were financially ruined
<jumps childishly up and down>
Ooh ooh... and me too?
me me me aswel :D
Dicky Ticker
14-03-11, 06:34 PM
I think if it is the same case I followed it is a lot to do with the statements they made to the police and incitement was mentioned along with racing.This is the same case that was outlined in MCN and what has been said by the media is hearsay as far as I am aware
There's always three sides to a story,Prosecution,Defense and the truth,I hope they have good legal defence as methinks they will need it to get an honest and fair outcome.
NO!
Although you argue, and at times churlishly, you do not go on and on and on, whilst missing the whole point.
YOU have to stay ;)
B*gger
I think if it is the same case I followed it is a lot to do with the statements they made to the police and incitement was mentioned along with racing. This is the same case that was outlined in MCN
Lesson 1 - Ignore anything written in MCN and regard it all as fabricated lies, even the date and price on the front.
Lesson 2 - Never divulge to the police any more than they need to know.
Dicky Ticker
14-03-11, 06:50 PM
No reflection or disrespect to anybody but it is my PERSONAL reason for not riding in large groups although in the case stated it doesn't seem like it was a large group. It is human nature that people want to "Keep up" and although it may not seem that way, in my experience people unwillingly tend to ride faster and faster.Restraint in a group ,for me, is very hard due to the competitive spirit and I try to eliminate this by riding on my own either at the front or back where I am setting my own pace.
Lesson 1 - Ignore anything written in MCN and regard it all as fabricated lies, even the date and price on the front.
Lesson 2 - Never divulge to the police any more than they need to know.
Both good advice.
First off; RIP and thoughts go out to the families involved.
It's like a BBC NEWS puzzle!
Maybe the 4 bikers caused the car to go into the couple who died? That's the only way I can see why they are being charged.
metalangel
14-03-11, 08:23 PM
No reflection or disrespect to anybody but it is my PERSONAL reason for not riding in large groups although in the case stated it doesn't seem like it was a large group. It is human nature that people want to "Keep up" and although it may not seem that way, in my experience people unwillingly tend to ride faster and faster.Restraint in a group ,for me, is very hard due to the competitive spirit and I try to eliminate this by riding on my own either at the front or back where I am setting my own pace.
This.
I know everyone took the p*** at the AR as pretty much the first thing I did on each leg was move over to the left with my indicator on and wave everyone past but I feel exactly the same as Dicky says above and I can always crop the TEC out of the photos of me riding past when I get home.
punyXpress
14-03-11, 09:37 PM
This:
Arrests made following fatal motorbike collision on the A162 between Tadcaster and Sherburn-in-Elmet
8:31am Tuesday 2nd November 2010
FIVE men have been arrested on suspicion of causing death by dangerous driving in connection with a crash which killed a couple in North Yorkshire.
The arrests followed a series of early morning raids across the Bradford area yesterday.
Police arrested a 28-year-old man at his home in Halifax Road, Cullingworth, in connection with a crash which killed solicitor Helen Slater, 37, and her husband Dean, 40.
The couple of Thornton, Bradford, died after being thrown from their motorbike when it was in collision with a car on the A162 between Tadcaster (http://www.yorkpress.co.uk/search/?search=Tadcaster) and Sherburn-in-Elmet.
A 31-year-old man from Leafield Crescent, Eccleshill and a 25-year-old of Etna Street, Great Horton, Bradford, were also arrested after a team of 20 North Yorkshire Police officers simultaneously raided their homes at 6.15am yesterday.
Officers arrested a 28-year-old man of Ryecroft Avenue, Bingley, and a 36-year-old man of Clough Fold, Keighley, as part of the operation.
The men were being questioned at police stations in North Yorkshire yesterday in connection with the fatal road crash, which happened on August 25.
The couple had been travelling on a black Yamaha bike – Mrs Slater riding pillion – in a group of six motorcycles, when they were involved in a collision with a green Vauxhall Vectra travelling in the opposite direction.
Assistant Chief Constable Sue Cross said North Yorkshire Police had taken the unusual step of carrying out the dawn raid as part of the “serious” investigation into the double fatal crash.
was the last time this was aired here.
keith_d
14-03-11, 10:12 PM
By the sound of it they were on a 'spirited' rideout and one of the bikes ran wide and was involved in a fatal collision. North Yorks Police are now trying to say that they were all equally to blame for the collision because they were riding together at the time. To me that sounds like 'guilt by association', and would make events like the AR very difficult to organise if everyone present could be charged in the event of an accident.
By all means charge individual riders with Dangerous Driving if there is sufficient evidence to support a prosecution. But trying to say that they are responsible for how other people in the group ride is not reasonable. Nobody tells me how much to twist the throttle (except on a dyno run), that's part of the fun of biking.
Let's hope the jury sees it that way too,
Keith.
davepreston
14-03-11, 10:31 PM
dawn raids , now thats just taking the mick, north yorks ploice get a grip ffs, hopefully they just used the lines, wake me up when my briefs present, then i'll answer any questions
Specialone
14-03-11, 11:03 PM
Personally i cannot see how they could muster enough evidence for a conviction.
They would have to fess up or have shed load of witnesses at the scene for a solid case surely?
Your responsible for your own actions unless one of them done a dodgy overtake or something and caused the deceased to lose control, so charge one not all, they cant of all caused it.
Thats why i ride to my abilities (if indeed, lack of ability caused this accident), if i tried to keep up i would crash im sure.
My pace will come but im not gonna force it just to keep up with the fast riders at the front.
Im more interested atm in getting smooth rather than going double the speed limit.
I really hope the outcome of this dooesnt end with convictions, it will open the floodgates imo.
Personally i would plead that i was out riding on my own and it was coincedence i was there at the time of the accident, how could they prove you was part of the group?
Bluepete
14-03-11, 11:32 PM
As normal, speculation is running away with itself and the .org has decided the case has no merits and the prosecution is doomed to failure.
I'm not getting on my sopa box, but trust me when I tell you, the amount of evidence, from witnesses, interviews, CCTV, physical evidence from the scene and so on will be huge.
Without having access to that file of evidence there is no way to decide what happened and why such charges have been brought. The CPS decision will have been made after alot of thought and the entire case reviewed by a seperate CPS lawyer from a different area who has to make the same decision as the first before the case proceeds. (They don't, however always make the right decision - not a comment on this case, but one from experience)
Even a "Simple" fatality produces vast amounts of evidence, in support of both the prosecution and the defence. With so many riders and God alone knows how many witnesses involved, the number and detail of the statements will be mind boggling.
As for lesson two, often, especially when someone has died, the parties involved WANT to talk about it. It's cathartic. People will tell me their most intimate secrets when the emotion is running high in a fatal interview.
So please, feel for the families who have lost loved ones, but don't judge the survivors, either favourably or not.
Pete
davepreston
15-03-11, 06:46 AM
pete can i ask you if you think the "dawn raids" were in anyway nessesary or just some grandstanding
Bluepete
15-03-11, 07:52 AM
pete can i ask you if you think the "dawn raids" were in anyway nessesary or just some grandstanding
I don't know.
As for grandstanding, no. Fatal enquiries are serious and not given to PR stunts.
Pete
Specialone
15-03-11, 08:48 AM
Pete, obviously the details haven't come out, but what scenario in your opinion would these other bikers be charged? In other words what could they have done to influence the deceased enough for them to lose control and making them liable to prosecution ?
Bluepete
15-03-11, 08:55 AM
Pete, obviously the details haven't come out, but what scenario in your opinion would these other bikers be charged? In other words what could they have done to influence the deceased enough for them to lose control and making them liable to prosecution ?
I'm not going to get into speculation about it.
Pete
thedonal
15-03-11, 08:57 AM
I nearly posted this up yesterday, but really don't know what to make of it- information is so scant. So hard from the information given to work out what happened, so refraining from judging.
I do hope that it's not simply "you were riding in the same group so you're all guilty"- as I find it hard to see why other riders in a group should be prosecuted unless there's strong evidence that they were at fault...
And that BBC article is awful- their journalism is getting worse and worse and sensationalism is really rising with their headlines.
Maybe the Beeb should all be arrested for dangerous publishing...
Specialone
15-03-11, 09:02 AM
I'm not going to get into speculation about it.
Pete
I was kinda asking generally as I genuinely can't think of a scenario apart from association where a charge would emerge.
I'm just interested where the law stands in these things.
would be interesting to find out what happened, as everyone is responsible for their own actions, and everyone on a rideout knows to go at your own pace, especially if your riding with pillion.
a situation would be if one of the bikers undertook the couple and caused them to somehow swerve across the road and into path of the car??
This earlier article (http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-york-north-yorkshire-11151377) might shed a clue:
Traffic Sgt Julian Pearson, who is leading the investigation, said: "I am particularly interested in hearing from two joggers who were on the A659 in the area of Newton Kyme and the driver of a Morris Minor which was entering Tadcaster on the A659 outside the primary school.
"The joggers and the car driver had to take evasive action to avoid being struck by members of the groups of motorcyclists."
It's an unfortunate fact that even if they weren't directly involved in the accident, statements saying that they were previously seen riding like idiots will be massively damaging to them. Always keep in mind how other road users will view your actions.
I don't know how many people have read the thread on PistonHeads about a young lad (Daniel Olley, username "10 pence short") who was put in jail after badly injuring a biker whilst returning from a group drive. Witness statements of his driving prior to the accident were primary evidence, coupled with his post history on an owner club forum. It's well worth reading his blog (http://prison-diary.blogspot.com/) it if you have some spare time, he's totally open and honest about the whole ordeal and it makes very sobering reading.
Yes but it's one thing to use public evidence to prosecute for Dangerous Driving, but another to say they are directly responsible for the death of anyone else in the group who was riding in the same manor. The report leaves lots of scope for own opinons of what is fact or isn't.
Dicky Ticker
15-03-11, 11:11 AM
And there-in lies the answer,fact is fact,supposition is something else but unfortunately EXPERT OPINION is not always correct as has been proved in the past and this is based on opinion
Impossible to comment on the specific case as there is no information at all.
As a legal argument I can't agree with other people being held accountable for the independant actions of an individual in full posession of their faculties. We're not sheep. The argument would seem along the lines of "Your out drinking with friends, one turns into a drunk tosser, lamps someone and you're all charged because you've all been drinking together."
The argument for this sort of collective responsibility/ punshment would be to discourage others thus making the world a safer place. Could probably argue it all the way to the EEC.
Thoughts to familly and any and all innocent bystanders caught up.
Dicky Ticker
15-03-11, 11:24 AM
Case specifics will vary but it could be incitement---even in the drinking scenario if you encouraged the actions
Somebody standing on a roof contemplating suicide and you tell them to jump,is that assisting suicide???????
The drink example did contravene my "In full possession of faculties". would still argue that encouraging drinking is not the same as a "Go on - thump 'im" encouragement. Isn't there an american law that has collective responsibilty when someonce drops dead commiting a crime - can't bring wording to mind...
metalangel
15-03-11, 02:25 PM
It's an unfortunate fact that even if they weren't directly involved in the accident, statements saying that they were previously seen riding like idiots will be massively damaging to them. Always keep in mind how other road users will view your actions.
Yup. Shortly before I crashed my car, I overtook some woman who was doing 35mph in an NSL (60mph) area. When they reached the accident they stopped and told the cops this. I don't think it ended up having any bearing on the outcome but in another situation it might have.
Kind of same thing that happened to me, I filtered to the the front of a traffic light and took off when it went green. Speed limit went to NSL shortly after.
A woman in an old merc drove out of a side street without looking and I t-boned her.
6 people stopped and told the cops I was speeding and 2 of them claimed I didn't have any lights on.
I got 6 points, case was found in her favour, I was 3rd party only...
Maybe if I hadn't been dressed like Snake Plissken I wouldn't have been blamed.
punyXpress
15-03-11, 04:23 PM
Think there was a similar one 3 or 4 years ago:
Group had visited Squires and Bridlington & cameras showed they had comfortably averaged above the NSL despite going through several lower limits. A rider was killed attempting a wheelie and they hardly endeared themselves to the court by having ' humerous ' slogans on their hi-vis.
They were all from South Yorkshire.
Beware Joint Enterprise (http://news.bbc.co.uk/panorama/hi/front_page/newsid_8366000/8366280.stm).
This law doesn't aply to everyone of course, when certain groups of people go out in organised gangs and one happens to overstep the mark and hits/pushes someone and they later die, then no-one is held accountable let alone all of them. ;)
Beware Joint Enterprise (http://news.bbc.co.uk/panorama/hi/front_page/newsid_8366000/8366280.stm).
This law doesn't aply to everyone of course, when certain groups of people go out in organised gangs and one happens to overstep the mark and hits/pushes someone and they later die, then no-one is held accountable let alone all of them. ;)
That's entirely different. A total different set of circumstances.
Bluefish
16-03-11, 06:45 PM
That's entirely different. A total different set of circumstances.
same law used to prosecute though
yorkie_chris
16-03-11, 07:02 PM
We don't know with this lot whether it is "egged on and lost control", which is obviously BS as the dead feller had hold of the throttle, nobody else. If they've charged for that then it's a travesty and I hope it gets thrown out.
Or a more sinister case like they passed him mid corner on the inside and pushed him wide, which would rightly lead to some serious convictions.
It will be interesting to see what turns up
skidmarx
16-03-11, 09:12 PM
We don't know with this lot whether it is "egged on and lost control", which is obviously BS as the dead feller had hold of the throttle, nobody else. If they've charged for that then it's a travesty and I hope it gets thrown out.
Or a more sinister case like they passed him mid corner on the inside and pushed him wide, which would rightly lead to some serious convictions.
It will be interesting to see what turns up
OMG! I'm shocked that for once.... I agree with the above. First time for everything. Who knows what happened here, speculation is pointless. If it is a case of 'collective endeavour' or whatever then f*%k that. Once you close the visor, ALL decisions are your and yours alone. Unless, as said, it was a forced decision caused by someone acting without any consideration for anybody else and for no good reason apart from a fragile ego. We will wait and see.
punyXpress
16-03-11, 09:33 PM
This is the one:
You are here
News (http://www.yorkshireeveningpost.co.uk/news)
>
Latest News (http://www.yorkshireeveningpost.co.uk/news/latest-news)
http://www.yorkshireeveningpost.co.uk/logger/p.gif?a=1.2198556&d=/2.14729/2.14730/2.17103
Four bikers in court over Knottingley man's death crash
Sponsored by http://www.yorkshireeveningpost.co.uk/webimage/travel2airport_com_1_3081543%21image/169348167.gif_gen/derivatives/landscape_106/169348167.gif (http://www.travel2airport.com/)
Published on Wednesday 26 November 2008 06:54
FOUR bikers have appeared in court charged with causing death by dangerous driving and driving dangerously after a fifth biker in their group was killed when he left the road and crashed into a wood.
The prosecution at York Crown Court alleges the group "egged each other on" at speeds of more than 100 mph on the A162 Sherburn-in-Elmet bypass and between Sherburn and Scarborough on October 15, 2006.
The biker who died had allegedly performed a high-speed "wheelie" stunt before crashing. He was Martin Firth, 33, of Beal, near Knottingley.
Before the court are Paul Backhouse, 48, of Thorpe Lane, Thorpe Audlin, Pontefract, Andre Holland, 35, of Carlton Road, Pontefract, Peter Jackson, 48, of Hillside, Byram, Knottingley, and Kevin Moreton, 49, of Sowgate Lane, Ferrybridge.
All have pleaded not guilty to causing the death of Mr Firth by dangerous driving on the A162 Sherburn-in-Elmet by-pass, driving dangerously between Sherburn-in-Elmet and Scarborough, and driving dangerously on Sherburn-in-Elmet by-pass.
The bikers were riding from South Milford across the Yorkshire Wolds to Bridlington and Scarborough before returning via Norton, near Malton.
Other motorcyclists at a roadside cafe on the edge of the Yorkshire Wolds told how they heard the sound of high revving engines.
One biker told how as the group pulled up one had to brake sharply, raising his rear wheel off the ground.
Anthropomorphic
16-03-11, 10:15 PM
Four bikers in court over Knottingley man's death crash
They got a conviction on that one a few years back too.
http://www.gazetteherald.co.uk/news/4072143.Motorcyclists_banned_for_four_years/
Cases look fairly similar.
lukemillar
16-03-11, 10:48 PM
Can I, at this early opportunity, ask that Irons and possibly also Ralph, be banned from this thread?
;)
NO!
Although you argue, and at times churlishly, you do not go on and on and on, whilst missing the whole point.
Messie, you're my hero! ;-)
keith_d
17-03-11, 07:17 AM
Four bikers in court over Knottingley man's death crash
They got a conviction on that one a few years back too.
http://www.gazetteherald.co.uk/news/4072143.Motorcyclists_banned_for_four_years/
Cases look fairly similar.
Not really. That group were charged individually with Dangerous Driving. This time the group are being charged with Causing Death by Dangerous Driving which is rather different since it implies that they were directly responsible for the fatalities.
From the accounts in the media (apply credibility filter here) charging the recent group with Dangerous Driving would be a pushover. But, since we weren't there and haven't seen the evidence we don't really know.
Keith.
It really doesn't make much difference what the circumstances were. I do not see how ALL of the other bikers can be charged and convicted of death by dangerous driving of a biker who was in control of his own motorcycle. He alone is the one that twists the throttle or uses the brakes. Even if one of the bikers undertook him as Chris has suggested as a possible scenario, then that would be one conviction. Granted, all of them could be convicted of dangerous driving, but all convicted of killing the fifth biker? I think not.
Ceri JC
18-03-11, 05:28 PM
It's not this (http://www.motorcyclenews.com/MCN/News/newsresults/General-news/2009/November/nov1909-speeding-penalty-for-leading-rideout/_/R-EPI-120282) you're thinking of, Owenski?
I sincerely hope that applies to cages in packs two. Twice I've come incredibly close to being taken out by "Car Club" tossers. In one case, the front two were quite clearly 'racing' one another (oh how I laughed and laughed when he put his car on its roof a few bends later). Only once have I had a problem with a group of knobbers on sportsbikes trying to force their way into the oncoming lane at vastly in excess of the speed limit.
Only once have I had a problem with a group of knobbers on sportsbikes trying to force their way into the oncoming lane at vastly in excess of the speed limit.
Unfortunately it only takes the once for this to have an unhappy ending.
There are quite a few people out there who selfishly will ruin it for the rest of us.
When you consider that most bikers are over the age of 30 you would think they would be just a little bit smarter.
keith_d
19-03-11, 12:09 AM
I sincerely hope that applies to cages in packs two. Twice I've come incredibly close to being taken out by "Car Club" tossers...
What you need is a road straightening scheme, take out all those nasty twisty bits and the car clubs will have to go somewhere else for their jollies. If it was good enough for the Romans, it's good enough for me.
Keith.
http://www.dailyrecord.co.uk/news/scottish-news/2010/07/28/teenage-pair-jailed-after-fatal-90mph-country-road-race-86908-22446646/
This was in my area not long ago. The stretch of road the two raced on was only about 6 miles long, though the number of vehicles they overtook and statements obtained was massive. On a spirited ride-out on motorbikes, I can imagine the number of spirited overtakes to be much higher.
The death in the above case was directly caused by the two car drivers racing each other, with one losing control and killing his passenger and if that were not happening, the death would not have occurred, therefore they caused the deceased's death by driving dangerously even though one car was not even directly involved in the crash.
In the bikers case, I can only imagine the dawn raids on specific properties were to secure some sort of specific evidence, perhaps there was some suggestion the bikers had cameras fitted to their bikes, and there would be fears it would "go missing". Pure speculation, but that's all I can think of.
..........
Personally speaking, I don't wish to minimise the fact that people lost their lives in this case - it's an awful tragedy, but we know nothing of the circumstances, and it seems a lot of orgers are quick to leap to their defence purely because they are bikers.
These bikers could equally fall into that category of bikers that do ride like nutters everywhere, and give the rest of us bikers a bad name.
I'll sit on the fence on this one.
yorkie_chris
20-03-11, 10:47 AM
The fact that one of them wasn't insured suggests at least one was a bit of a c**t
.................
For those wanting the exact legislation -
Section 1 - Road Traffic Act 1988 (Death by Dangerous Driving)
A person who causes the death of another person by driving a mechanically propelled vehicle dangerously on a road or other public place is guilty of an offence.
And also related
Section 2A - Road Traffic Act 1988 (Meaning of Dangerous Driving)
(1)For the purposes of sections 1 and 2 above a person is to be regarded as driving dangerously if (and, subject to subsection (2) below, only if)—
(a)the way he drives falls far below what would be expected of a competent and careful driver, and
(b)it would be obvious to a competent and careful driver that driving in that way would be dangerous.
(2)A person is also to be regarded as driving dangerously for the purposes of sections 1 and 2 above if it would be obvious to a competent and careful driver that driving the vehicle in its current state would be dangerous.
(3)In subsections (1) and (2) above “dangerous” refers to danger either of injury to any person or of serious damage to property; and in determining for the purposes of those subsections what would be expected of, or obvious to, a competent and careful driver in a particular case, regard shall be had not only to the circumstances of which he could be expected to be aware but also to any circumstances shown to have been within the knowledge of the accused.
(4)In determining for the purposes of subsection (2) above the state of a vehicle, regard may be had to anything attached to or carried on or in it and to the manner in which it is attached or carried.
Subsection 3 is quite specific, in that regard should be given to the circumstances of which the riders could be expected to be aware but also to any circumstances shown to have been within the knowledge of the riders.
punyXpress
06-12-11, 11:31 AM
Cases dismissed.
gruntygiggles
06-12-11, 12:04 PM
Cases dismissed.
Hmmm. I for some reason have only just seen this thread.
Wonder why it was dismissed, because the way I see it, for CPS to go for the harsher charge for all four of them would mean that poosibly it was a scenario where the four bikers over or undertook the bike of the deceased making it impossible for him to avoid the fatal accident, but that is speculation of course.
Also...surely it had to be the car driver that wasn't insured. All four bikers were aged 31 and under, yet the person charged with not being insured was 36...and he could also have been charged with causing death by dangerous driving if him being over the white lines at the time of the collision also meant that the bike of the deceased could not avoid that collision.
I think the main point to take from this though is that two people lost their lives in what was deemed to be an entirely avoidable accident.
Stay safe out there people and RIP to the couple involved...thoughts to their families...this will not be a nice Christmas for them.
Littlepeahead
06-12-11, 12:16 PM
http://www.yorkshirepost.co.uk/news/at-a-glance/main-section/motorcyclists_cleared_following_death_of_lawyer_an d_husband_1_4033915
Sounds like the rider was on the wrong side of the road and hit the car driver. If the car driver was insured and on the correct side of the road then I do really feel for them as that will probably give him nightmares for the rest of their life.
My friend was convicted of death by dangerous driving. He was taking his very ill wife back from hospital, having been told 15 minutes earlier that her illness was terminal. While driving within the speed limit he blacked out at the wheel and swerved, hitting a Suzuki rider coming the other way in Epping Forest. He's a gentle soul in his late 50's, with a clean licence, not a reckless uninsured driver. It was an accident, he'll live knowing that he took someone's life forever, and he served time in prison for his 'crime'. It was shown that the mototrcyclist was speeding on his sportsbike.
Not all stories are clear cut.
punyXpress
06-12-11, 12:19 PM
Shedload of reasons - will transcribe it later
gruntygiggles
06-12-11, 02:57 PM
http://www.yorkshirepost.co.uk/news/at-a-glance/main-section/motorcyclists_cleared_following_death_of_lawyer_an d_husband_1_4033915
Sounds like the rider was on the wrong side of the road and hit the car driver. If the car driver was insured and on the correct side of the road then I do really feel for them as that will probably give him nightmares for the rest of their life.
My friend was convicted of death by dangerous driving. He was taking his very ill wife back from hospital, having been told 15 minutes earlier that her illness was terminal. While driving within the speed limit he blacked out at the wheel and swerved, hitting a Suzuki rider coming the other way in Epping Forest. He's a gentle soul in his late 50's, with a clean licence, not a reckless uninsured driver. It was an accident, he'll live knowing that he took someone's life forever, and he served time in prison for his 'crime'. It was shown that the mototrcyclist was speeding on his sportsbike.
Not all stories are clear cut.
Indeed they are not! What a horrible thing to have happened to your friend. I feel for anyone that is involved in anything like that. To be honest...even when people are idiots and cause death by sheer stupidity, I still feel sorry for them. One day they will mend their ways and never be reckless again...but they too will still always have to live with that memory.
Bluefish
06-12-11, 06:24 PM
It seems the correct verdict was reached, and the chap just made a mistake and didn't make the corner.
yorkie_chris
06-12-11, 06:25 PM
I think the main point to take from this though is that two people lost their lives in what was deemed to be an entirely avoidable accident.
Aren't most of them?
yorkie_chris
06-12-11, 06:28 PM
It was shown that the mototrcyclist was speeding on his sportsbike.
Not all stories are clear cut.
Whether you're doing 60 or 160, a car randomly swerving directly up your nose is almost certainly going to kill you.
Not meaning to be insensitive but why did he black out?
gruntygiggles
06-12-11, 06:36 PM
Aren't most of them?
I think so!
Very interesting article in the Yorkshire Post and if you haven't read it then please do.
'CCTV footage approaching Boston Spa showed all were over the 40mph limit, with the prosecution estimating Hannon doing a minimum average speed of 91mph, followed by Wheater “doing a wheelie” at 100mph, followed by Lerman also doing a wheelie at 82mph. There was then a six second gap to the others with the Slaters last doing 57mph.
But it was notable at that stage Mr Slater did not appear to be trying to catch up with the leading group. After Tadcaster it appeared the second group increased speed to catch up the others ahead but Mr Slater made his own decision about that.'
Luckypants
07-12-11, 10:07 AM
Yorkshire Post article linked to makes interesting reading and I think the judge was right to throw out the charges. Nice to see common sense prevailing in the law.
gruntygiggles
07-12-11, 12:09 PM
Yorkshire Post article linked to makes interesting reading and I think the judge was right to throw out the charges. Nice to see common sense prevailing in the law.
+1
I just hope they all come to terms with it and if they feel any guilt...find a way to forgive themselves.
AndyBrad
07-12-11, 12:30 PM
tbh i can see the death by dangerous driving being given to the guy who crashed due to his pillion. but not to the other guys.
Have these four been convicted or charges dropped yet?
Luckypants
07-12-11, 03:00 PM
Cases dismissed.
http://www.yorkshirepost.co.uk/news/at-a-glance/main-section/motorcyclists_cleared_following_death_of_lawyer_an d_husband_1_4033915
Sounds like the rider was on the wrong side of the road and hit the car driver. If the car driver was insured and on the correct side of the road then I do really feel for them as that will probably give him nightmares for the rest of their life.
My friend was convicted of death by dangerous driving. He was taking his very ill wife back from hospital, having been told 15 minutes earlier that her illness was terminal. While driving within the speed limit he blacked out at the wheel and swerved, hitting a Suzuki rider coming the other way in Epping Forest. He's a gentle soul in his late 50's, with a clean licence, not a reckless uninsured driver. It was an accident, he'll live knowing that he took someone's life forever, and he served time in prison for his 'crime'. It was shown that the mototrcyclist was speeding on his sportsbike.
Not all stories are clear cut.
Have these four been convicted or charges dropped yet?
all on the previous page, lazy bones! :D
yorkie_chris
08-12-11, 07:35 PM
+1
I just hope they all come to terms with it and if they feel any guilt...find a way to forgive themselves.
They should not feel guilty.
If I was following someone and F'ed up and killed myself, I would like them to rest easy. You are in control of your own life and throttle is only in your hand.
gruntygiggles
08-12-11, 10:57 PM
They should not feel guilty.
If I was following someone and F'ed up and killed myself, I would like them to rest easy. You are in control of your own life and throttle is only in your hand.
I agree with you...but for many people, it is impossible not to think,"if i hadn't done this or that, things might be different". I hope that is not the case, but that if it us, they let it go and just try and grieve for their friends.
Milky Bar Kid
09-12-11, 01:54 AM
Indeed they are not! What a horrible thing to have happened to your friend. I feel for anyone that is involved in anything like that. To be honest...even when people are idiots and cause death by sheer stupidity, I still feel sorry for them. One day they will mend their ways and never be reckless again...but they too will still always have to live with that memory.
Agree in most circumstances with this. If someone has just made a dodgey overtake and had ahead on and someone has died as a result then I always find it a bit of a double punishment to jail them. I understand why they do and there are some who most certainly do deserve it but most people with a licence will have had a "oooh that was a bit tight" moment at some point but managed to get away with it.
I think if I caused the death of someone it would kill me. I don't think I could cope with that guilt and the replay of the incident everytime I closed my eyes. As such, I have every sympathy with people like LPH's friend. I hope that through good fortune I never have to end up in a similar position. *touches wood*
-Ralph-
09-12-11, 09:25 AM
Yep, I find jailing otherwise innocent and law abiding motorists too harsh.
If they have a good stack of previous offences and/or a criminal record, and/or they were drunk, then fair enough, they probably need taught the lesson. But 45 yr old Dad of three with a clean license who's never been in trouble in his life, fecks it up on the road and kills somebody, so they send him to jail to inhabit an environment that he's not the type of person to be able to cope with, he'll get raped in the shower every day, and he'll come out with post traumatic stress and a changed personality to wrecked career, a wife that's moved on and kids that don't know him anymore? No. It was an accident, a very unfortunate one, but an accident nonetheless. I hope if anyone close to me ever gets taken out like that, I'll still be able to see it the same way.
SUPERSTARDJ01
09-12-11, 03:53 PM
Bloke in Milton Keynes came off the road and hit a tree and his head came off, the others in the group weren't charged.
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