View Full Version : braking problems
kiggles
17-03-11, 08:02 PM
hello fellow forum members,
got few problem when slowing down on my K3 (25,000miles). the brakes are pretty rubbish crap compared to my k5 (10,000 miles). i have checked discs and brake pads and they fine and re-bleed brakes. i have heard of these braided hoses, does anyone think this willl solve my problem.
for clarity i can stop with my brakes they work fine. just comparing them to a newer bike they just don't seem to have the same crisp performance. and as we all have those moments of going that little bit to quick, i need to sort it.
i have had a small look at some on intobikes.co.uk and have no idea what to get. can someone point me in right direct for how many lines i need, recommend some good reliable makes and fair prices. looks at spending £50
sam anon
17-03-11, 08:19 PM
Have you serviced your calipers at all?
I'd suggest giving that ago, there are plenty of threads on here about it. As it's your brakes be sure you know what you're doing, or get them looked at my a mechanic.
Braided lines do help, but don't offer any advantage over rubber hoses except that they last longer.
Braided lines do help, but don't offer any advantage over rubber hoses except that they last longer.
Are you sure about that?
kiggles
17-03-11, 08:27 PM
i think my dad serviced the callipers, i will double check on it. i was thinking that the bike is coming on 8 years old maybe the rubber hoses need changing? and if they not worth buying why do people buy them to pimp their machine?
Geodude
17-03-11, 08:36 PM
AFAIK Braided hoses give less expansion of the tubes so offer better braking pressure or so i was told but im no brake expert ;)
andrewsmith
17-03-11, 08:42 PM
AFAIK Braided hoses give less expansion of the tubes so offer better braking pressure or so i was told but im no brake expert ;)
thats the theory.
Suzuki say that the hoses should be changed every 4 years (well not at around £175 for fronts). I know a few mechanics that say the hoses will last a lot longer under normal conditions.
Most effective way to improve the brakes is a service/ overhaul (seals etc..) and braided lines. Mine are too brutal atm, hellish for pulling stoppies tho
Do you use the bike to commute?
If the brakes never really get used in anger the pads could be glazed.
Braided hoses can help make the brakes sharper, but rubber hoses give more feel. Rubber hoses are supposed to be replaced after 4 years anyway.
The easiest way to make sure all the air is out is to zip tie the brake lever back to the grip overnight. Cut it next morning and then check system for any sign of fluid leaks. Hope this helps.
I'm with the give them a good servicing gang. You m,ay be amazed how much better they'll feel.
benji106
18-03-11, 10:21 AM
Just a thought but if the calipers/disks/pads/lines etc are all serviced and in good nick it could just be different pads between the two bikes giving different feel.
yorkie_chris
19-03-11, 04:05 PM
Are you sure about that?
Yes. Between braided and new rubber ones there's no difference.
Between braided and 7 year old squishy rubber OTOH...
you need to diagnose what is wrong with the brakes, are they squishy? Is there drag in the lever? Or are they lacking bite (less deceleration for the same pressure)
yorkie_chris
19-03-11, 04:09 PM
Do you use the bike to commute?
If the brakes never really get used in anger the pads could be glazed.
Braided hoses can help make the brakes sharper, but rubber hoses give more feel. Rubber hoses are supposed to be replaced after 4 years anyway.
The easiest way to make sure all the air is out is to zip tie the brake lever back to the grip overnight. Cut it next morning and then check system for any sign of fluid leaks. Hope this helps.
Rubber hoses give more feel? I disagree. They make them squishy and hard to modulate pressure as you need to move your finger an inch. With good braided you just adjust the pressure and the lever stays more or less solid.
Nobody in their right mind would possibly ever replace the OEM lines with more OEM ones, they're more expensive than braided that last 10x better due to using decent stainless rather than cad plated cheese.
For another thing, if you like a bit of travel to modulate then you can allow a tiny air bubble into the system, but that seems mental to deliberately make them worse.
for another thing, how does tying the lever back overnight release any air?
wattyfred89
04-04-11, 10:25 PM
Whilst your on this brake thread......ive serviced my brakes ive got new seals, new fluid, brand new braided hoses and my discs are fine and there is absolutely no air in the system
...but i still have lots of excess movement on my brake lever....my brakes work well and strong but the lever comes so close the bar!?
the bikes done 23,000 miles i had it from new and the front brake had so little movement upto about 18,000
fastdruid
04-04-11, 10:47 PM
One issue I've had with bikes with a remote res is you can get air hanging around in the tube to the res.
Bleeding the bike has actually made things worse, the only way I 'solved' it was to either keep giving the tube to the res a squeeze every time I pumped the lever (while bleeding) or to ensure the res was unbolted from its perch and as near vertical as it would get (without spilling fluid everywhere) to ensure the bubbles actually migrated up the tube.
Also beware of bubbles located in the banjo bolts, typically the M/C banjo ends up being the highest point in the system, you can either crack the bolt a smidge and pull the lever before tightening or take the lever off and bleed it on a bit of bar.
The other good way is to remove the calipers, remove the pads, stick a bit of wood in between and pump the pistons until they touch the wood, clean them if they are at all cruddy then push them all the way in. Repeat a few times. The massive amount of fluid movement tends to overwhelm any tendency of air to hang around without the PITA of using loads of fluid in bleeding.
Druid
yorkie_chris
04-04-11, 10:50 PM
Well if there's absolutely no air in there then your discs must be warped, if the lever is squishy on the move.
fastdruid
04-04-11, 10:52 PM
for another thing, how does tying the lever back overnight release any air?
I suspect what happens is the air is slowly forced past the M/C piston seal.
It certainly makes a difference.
Druid
yorkie_chris
04-04-11, 10:55 PM
If it was going to get up there anyway then it would have bubbled up transfer port.
My theory is no air moves anywhere, just pistons creep up in seals a bit and give impression there is less air in there
I suspect what happens is the air is slowly forced past the M/C piston seal.
It certainly makes a difference.
Druid
+1
Works for me too, but for the race bike I have to lean it over as if it were on the side stand and put the bars in the left lock position making the reservoir the highest point, then tie the lever back.
Makes a big difference.
Maybe it removes the micro fizz that you get when bleeding the brakes?
C
wattyfred89
05-04-11, 03:05 PM
Well if there's absolutely no air in there then your discs must be warped, if the lever is squishy on the move.
the lever is not squishy its firm once pulled in. The problem is you have to pull it in too far.
I have had the bike up on the stand and checked the front discs and there fine.
wattyfred89
05-04-11, 03:10 PM
One issue I've had with bikes with a remote res is you can get air hanging around in the tube to the res.
Bleeding the bike has actually made things worse, the only way I 'solved' it was to either keep giving the tube to the res a squeeze every time I pumped the lever (while bleeding) or to ensure the res was unbolted from its perch and as near vertical as it would get (without spilling fluid everywhere) to ensure the bubbles actually migrated up the tube.
Also beware of bubbles located in the banjo bolts, typically the M/C banjo ends up being the highest point in the system, you can either crack the bolt a smidge and pull the lever before tightening or take the lever off and bleed it on a bit of bar.
The other good way is to remove the calipers, remove the pads, stick a bit of wood in between and pump the pistons until they touch the wood, clean them if they are at all cruddy then push them all the way in. Repeat a few times. The massive amount of fluid movement tends to overwhelm any tendency of air to hang around without the PITA of using loads of fluid in bleeding.
Druid
so your saying that after a 3 bleeds of perfect fluid coming through and a good 200 miles letting it settle and all that there still maybe air between the M/C and my banjo at the top?
wattyfred89
05-04-11, 03:12 PM
+1
Works for me too, but for the race bike I have to lean it over as if it were on the side stand and put the bars in the left lock position making the reservoir the highest point, then tie the lever back.
Makes a big difference.
Maybe it removes the micro fizz that you get when bleeding the brakes?
C
when this is done should you remove the reservoirs lid and rubber bit or should it not make a difference.
fastdruid
05-04-11, 03:17 PM
so your saying that after a 3 bleeds of perfect fluid coming through and a good 200 miles letting it settle and all that there still maybe air between the M/C and my banjo at the top?
Yes.
Druid
yorkie_chris
05-04-11, 04:39 PM
so your saying that after a 3 bleeds of perfect fluid coming through and a good 200 miles letting it settle and all that there still maybe air between the M/C and my banjo at the top?
Perfectly plausible, especially on fairy bikes where the MC points uphill.
Bleeding system out through banjos is pretty much SP... thought you said there was no air in it ;)
wattyfred89
05-04-11, 05:40 PM
bleeding system through banjos sounds messy!
thanks,
Fred
wattyfred89
06-04-11, 06:55 PM
Perfectly plausible, especially on fairy bikes where the MC points uphill.
Bleeding system out through banjos is pretty much SP... thought you said there was no air in it ;)
done! no difference! ... im thinking master cylinder spring and seals has given up on me
Have your calipers been serviced? You were going to find out if your Dad did them.
AndyBrad
07-04-11, 11:42 AM
From what i understand the idea of tieing your leaver back means that the system is under pressure and all the little bubbles migrate into one big bubble that can be bled out of the system. Whether this actually happens im not 100% convinced but it does work. If it was the seals creaping would it not have the same/better effect by just pulling the leaver very hard?
Just as a side note now much have you got left of the pads? if your having to pull the leaver far then they are either worn or the system has air in it. Servicing your calipers will also help. Ive found that with time old seals will "pull" the pad back from the disc meaning that when you next apply the brakes the system has not compensated for the piston movement and you have excessive leaver travel.
my 2penneth. ;D
Having to pull the lever back further than normal should have absolutely nothing to do with how much good material is left on the brake pads. The pistons travel shouldn't be any greater than if the pads are brand new or have only 1mm of material left.
AndyBrad
07-04-11, 02:39 PM
they will if the pistons are not returning or they are creeping back due to the seals.
they will if the pistons are not returning...
I assume you mean if the pistons are returning more than they should.
That could indeed be the problem. My post was so anyone with a similar problem reading this who is unfamiliar brakes doesn't assume more lever travel means the pads are on their way out, similarly to the OP's original post about buying braided lines before figuring out if they're the problem.
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