View Full Version : pay cut
aaron020873
09-04-11, 02:01 PM
does anyone know what my rights are to this?
the company want to give me a paycut of 5%, on top of this they want to take away the money i get paid for travelling i.e as it stands i have to drive for 45 mins a day unpaid, then after that i get paid for the rest of my time spent driving at my normal hourly rate,i could be working anywhere in the country so this can be quite a lot of driving (and money). They are also stopping our benefit of 2 hours extra pay per day when working away from home, and also our 100% pay when leaving before 5.30am.
i'm after info on the driving side of this more than anything as i live 25 mins from our office and get there for 7am and i'm paid from 7-4, but the problem is i could then be working 3 hours away?? so should i be expected to drive 3 hours home with no payment????
i have done some calculations based on my last twelve months pay slips and it averages out that i would lose about £85 a week, for me this is a big hit.
so there you go any advice guys??? ps i'm already looking for a new job..LOL
Dicky Ticker
09-04-11, 02:20 PM
I would imagine travelling to and from your office is your responsibility BUT-----
if your hours paid are based on the office hours and that is your place of employment
surely you must be entitled to drive back there on completion of your days work which in theory is still part of your working day as your employer has designated where you are working that day.Alternatively you finish and drive back to your place of employment within your working hours as in finish at the location allowing yourself time to drive back.
I TAKE IT YOUR GRIPE IS NOT BEING EITHER ALLOWED OR PAID FOR TRAVELLING TIME
aaron020873
09-04-11, 03:47 PM
my gripe is that 1 day i could be working 10 mins away from the office, the next i could be 3 hours away and all that travelling time is not paid for, in other words i could be working 40 hours 1 week, and then 55 hours the next with no extra pay. Also i'am still expected to go out of my way to drop people off on my way home making the journey even longer, and also that on average £85 a week loss is alot to lose.
i just can't seem to find any rules anywhere about if i'm actually entitled to payment or not outside of my normal working hours.
yes travelling to and from my office should be my responsibility but surely without extra payment then i should start there at 7am and finish there at 4 pm. and leave the van there.
That's normal for salary pay isn't it? I can work 70+hrs some weeks but font get paid anymore for it.
As for the paycut... It sucks but they can do it, my previous employer gave everyone a 12.5% paycut. If you don't like it, vote with your feet and leave, that's what I did.
aaron020873
09-04-11, 05:29 PM
i'm not on a salary i'm paid weekly by the hour!!!! salaries tend to take a certain amount into consideration don't they then it's upto you to take the rough with the smooth.
and as for voting with my feet it may be the only option!!
timwilky
09-04-11, 05:36 PM
Think yourself lucky to have a job.
I drive an hour and a half each way to get to my current place of work. Do I claim the time. No I work 8 hours once I get there. those entitled to payment in my back seat do claim
Pay cut, I went 4 years without a pay rise. I reckon I am still on 20% less than what I was earning 5 years ago when I was getting bonuses etc.
Specialone
09-04-11, 06:07 PM
Afaik, if you have an employment contract they cannot lower your pay without your approval.
It is a request not compulsory, problem is most will say it's either cut or cut staff, so most agree to it.
Look at it from another perspective. A company is struggling courtesy of the current economic climate and has a choice between lowering wages/benefits or going under. They ask their staff to consider a paycut or carry on as they are but with the potential of going to the wall.
No one wants to cut wages, absolutely no one wants to cut wages. If wages are cut people leave, and if it's a skilled job there is a potential for even greater costs when seeking a replacement.
None of the above is of any help to you, and what and how you deal with it is very much up to you. Pay rises, and cuts are at the discretion of the employer.
keith_d
09-04-11, 11:25 PM
Where I work they implemented a back door pay cut by removing benefits worth about fifty quid a week. We've lost four people out of our group and I'll be spending the next few months training one of the replacements.
If they had to make pay cuts to stay afloat things might be different, but according to our internal communications we've just had a record year. So I'm not exactly motivated at the moment. (dilligaf)
In a small company it's rather different. If they're that close to going under you need to be leaving anyway.
Just my thoughts,
Keith.
In a small company it's rather different. If they're that close to going under you need to be leaving anyway.
Have to say I think it's a shame so many people have this opinion. As Bri said some companies are really struggling now and lowering staff costs is the only way to continue operating.
I'd never want to lower wages either - it's not exactly a morale booster - but I'd hope if I did that people would understand and stick with us. (Wouldn't be surprised if they didn't though)
To the OP - I don't know the legal side of it. If it was me I'd agree that you have a right to some form of compensation for the extra time, but there may not be an automatic 'right' to it. Do you have a written contract? And are there any written policies in place?
aaron020873
10-04-11, 07:32 PM
yes i have a written contract, but it is the policies that are in place that are changing.
i understand the need to make paycuts, and although it makes me mad i understand the reasons behind it, but the driving side i can't get my head round. If i was traveling to one place on a daily basis i could understand, but when i could be sent anywhere in the country and expected to travel outside of my working/paid hours for no extra money seems wrong, especially as we have always been paid before.
Specialone is right in a way, if you have a contract then you have to agree with the pay cut, problem is if you dont then you effectively terminate your contact anyway but then you should get paid redundancy.
As for your travelling they should pay your business mileage but dont have to pay you. It's a change to their t&c they can do it im sorry to say
Source= hr advisor
-Ralph-
10-04-11, 08:01 PM
Citizens advice bureau?
This is the best bit of advice on this page so far. Go speak to people who can put you in touch with someone who knows exactly what they are talking about. Take your contract with you.
Dave20046
10-04-11, 08:13 PM
I'd speak to management before CAB tbh, just make sure you're clear on things/try come to an arrangement?
Ask them if this means you are required back to the office at 4pm each day (i.e downing tools early) if they're not paying overtime (which is essentially what they've said re. the driving/travel time side of things if I understand correctly).
aaron020873
10-04-11, 09:37 PM
thanks for all the different thoughts guys, got a meeting tomo so will try and get them to listen to me and see if we can sort something out.
keith_d
11-04-11, 05:52 AM
Have to say I think it's a shame so many people have this opinion. As Bri said some companies are really struggling now and lowering staff costs is the only way to continue operating.
When a company reaches the point that it needs to cut salaries to stay afloat the employees have to make a guess about whether the company will make it. It's a guess, not an informed decision because we don't really know how close to the edge the company is.
Most of us need a steady source of income to pay the rent/mortgage. In the current climate it's going to be hard to find another job, so if my current job started looking risky I would have to start looking elsewhere. It's not a "stuff you, I'm leaving" decision at all. It's a decision born of necessity.
personally if it were me I would weigh up the various aspects of the job, what you like about it and what you dont. Not forgetting that for many people the aim of going to work is to earn enough to fund your chosen lifestyle.
If it didn't live up to expectations I would move on. If you enjoy the job and have a desire to stay (be honest with yourself about this) then request some time with your boss, explain what the changes mean to you both motivationally and financially and see what happens. If you dont see the response that you need, look for a replacement. Plenty of work out there.
Salary - theys should consult with you and pit the proposal on the table and advise you. If you don't like it they can dis engage your present contract under the legal time and re enagage you in your new contract. Its forcing you to either take the job or make your self jobless (means no payment re redundancy and 8 week wait before you can apply for benefits)
commute to work - sorry but that is your responsibility the only way I know that you get payment for this is if the company moves you offices and the mileage is now longer - but its not a right.
Business miles - that is company specific - though it should be in your contract what you should get. I get a lump sum and 45p mile (well waiting for confirmation on that)
Though - our working hours ar 7am-9pm so that affects any overtime.
Are the policies changing to reflect the cuts? becuase the crux basically the company can do what it doing legally.
In an ideal world you would get paid for your mileage within the hours your are contracted to do (ie 7-4)
To expect you take wear and tear on your own private car and the hit of business insurance without some payment is slightly unfair but not uncommon. T&C's are beeing hammered at the moment
read the policies and the new contracts very carefully and I sympathise with it I have just taken a cut of 33% :rolleyes:
aaron020873
11-04-11, 07:31 PM
i may of not explained the travel side of this properly, the travel is done in a company van so milage wear and tear etc is not an issue, i don't expect payment for getting to the office/yard for 7am, and likewise wouldn't expect payment for travelling home from the yard at 4pm, but fact that i could be any where in the country at 4pm when my pay stops and that i'm then expected to travel (in many cases) an unreasonable distance home in my own time with no pay makes my blood boil..... i mean would you get a job say 120 miles from home and travel it for no pay???
speedplay
11-04-11, 07:52 PM
Take the cut, STFU or get a different job.
Sorry to sound harsh, but if you dont want to do it, theres millions out there that would replace you tomorrow.
I've travelled within 3 hours each way for the last 15 years without pay, its called "earning a living".
Yes you may find it harsh losing £85 a week but when the alternative is £65 a week on benefits, kind of sums it up really.
-Ralph-
11-04-11, 08:06 PM
Ever the diplomat Rob ;-)
If you talk to your mates you'll find that quite a few who've either had no pay rise, taken a paycut or had more work lumped on them and no pay rise, pay cut etc. You're in the same boat with lots of other people.
If its boiling your blood that much find another job, or as my boss said a couple of years ago to someone who was bumping their gums. "Here's the number for Woolies. Oh just remembered they've gone bust too." ;)
aaron020873
11-04-11, 08:10 PM
it sucks and i will defo be looking for another job!! in the mean time i will be doing the company no favours, although i will still do a days work as expected to protect myself from any disciplinaries, and as for the van i have made it quite clear that i will not be driving it and having the other responsibilities that come with it.. and most of the other lads feel the same way... so if we stick together we may get some justice.
speedplay
11-04-11, 08:11 PM
Ever the diplomat Rob ;-)
Yup.
Millions out of work and people struggling to find work, pay bills etc.
I'll say it as it is Col, you know that, but I have no sympathy for anyone who moans about something rather than take the proactive route.
1, take the cut and stay in work.
2, find a different job.
Its not rocket science is it?!
Yup.
Millions out of work and people struggling to find work, pay bills etc.
I'll say it as it is Col, you know that, but I have no sympathy for anyone who moans about something rather than take the proactive route.
1, take the cut and stay in work.
2, find a different job.
Its not rocket science is it?!
Hey Rob, did you get that job with the UN diplomatic corps then;):smt016
speedplay
11-04-11, 08:34 PM
Turned it down as they were a bunch of tossers...
a shortage of jobs does not give an employer the right to treat their employees like crap. Personally I would be looking for another company to work for, one that gives a crap about its staff. They do exist.
Biker Biggles
11-04-11, 08:55 PM
Just remember we are all in this together and your bosses will be taking a haircut just like you are.In my experience those who have most always lead by example and would not ask their poorer compatriots to make sacrifices which they would not make themselves.Then I woke up and stopped talking absolute sh1te.Join a union and stand together with thousands of others to defend yourself against this kind of exploitation.Employment is a battleground,and you need clout to avoid getting walked over.
Shellywoozle
11-04-11, 09:11 PM
sorry not read this but I feel your pain .... you wanna be a copper, my lump sum from my pension which would have been over £100,000 may have suddenly disappeared (plu a few pay cuts here and there for me too) ......... bum bags for the economy.
Bluefish
11-04-11, 09:22 PM
Well I'm with the op on this one, presumably they want you to drive the van back after finishing at 4pm, well in that case you are working and should be paid for it, either that or you arrive and leave from the office every day, but know they don't like that cos it costs them, so they want you to do the work but not pay you, not, not pay at a reduced rate ie for traveling but sfa, I'd be looking for another job pronto, if discussions are not amenable.
johnmaciver32
11-04-11, 09:54 PM
I certainly wouldn't be happy with that.
Where I work has recently changed our contract. I'm a home based engineer. Basically I sit at home and wait for a fault to fix, which could be between 20 miles and 300 miles from home. We are now field based and don't get paid for an hour each way. They state its to fall in line with office based colleagues. I don't see how they can stop paying you at 4, when you can be several hours from home. Have they offered toil, or can you use the travel hours as time off in lieu?
Sent from my HTC Wildfire using Tapatalk
Just remember we are all in this together and your bosses will be taking a haircut just like you are.In my experience those who have most always lead by example and would not ask their poorer compatriots to make sacrifices which they would not make themselves.Then I woke up and stopped talking absolute sh1te.Join a union and stand together with thousands of others to defend yourself against this kind of exploitation.Employment is a battleground,and you need clout to avoid getting walked over.
I know a boss who refuses leave at Xmas coz he has to tell his staff they have to work.
I know a boss who got his staff another £500 quid on their annual bonus and another 1.5% on their pay rise. And is currently arguing for a mid year rise coz inflation is higher than expected.
I know a boss who buys them lunch out of his own pocket as a thank you even though he could get it on expenses.
I know a boss who has paid for several holidays for employees and their families.
We're not all ****s (****s)
i may of not explained the travel side of this properly, the travel is done in a company van so milage wear and tear etc is not an issue, i don't expect payment for getting to the office/yard for 7am, and likewise wouldn't expect payment for travelling home from the yard at 4pm, but fact that i could be any where in the country at 4pm when my pay stops and that i'm then expected to travel (in many cases) an unreasonable distance home in my own time with no pay makes my blood boil..... i mean would you get a job say 120 miles from home and travel it for no pay???
so you have a company van which means you have no wear and tear on your car and no fuel costs no excess insurance requirements.
you get paid on an hourly rate ( which is the same as a salaray btw its worked out on hourly rates) and you get paid 7-4.
so saying that you don't want to work the 55hrs without pay - I'm assuming then that you work a full 40hrs every single week and your full hours every day. and its not every day that you are working so far from home.
Unreasonable distance - sorry BUT if you thinks its reasonable on the works time and are happy to drive to it then you are also agreeing to the fact that you are aware of the distance and happy to drive back from that distance. if not then you have to use the tongue in your head.
The thing that you need to highlight is that if you are technically not working after 4 you are not actually insured to drive the van is if it a work van - so try that tact.
also be warned you stand together you may all go together! as for not doing your company any favours - remember they still need to a reference for you I wouldn't stop driving the van - It doesn't look too good from an employers eyes.
I'm also assuming that the meeting didn't go well seeing as there is no mention of it!
I have a mobile job and all fo the companies are clawing back the little perks there used to be around being a mobile worker. Making extra money on the travel is out these days.
I just left a job where I had to do 11 hours a day before I got travel money at standard rate. 2 hours free travel and the one hour lunch that there was never enough time to take. They also expected you to be on the client's site by 8am regardless of where it was in the country. Long long days.
Current job I do a 9 hour day before getting standard rate for travel, but the guys here used to get paid door-to-door and when the T&C's were changed they weren't happy. Ultimately they either accepted the new deal or they left. We also have trackers and fuel costs are very tightly controlled. Every mile must be logged for the tax man. My basic rate is less here, but because I'm not doing 15 hours unpaid I'm actually ahead.
stormingjoe
12-04-11, 10:19 AM
This country is F@~CKED has been for the last 10 years, our place has had paycuts in real terms for last 5 years and voluntary reductions in our pay, bottom line we have had enough, the company has made profit every year our efforts to help pay for a fleet of new vehicles, we no longer have any benefits, even pensions have gone, cost of living is high and now one of the lowest paid within the business in London area and still not got the promised new vehicles, which law has now forced their grubby hands. As been said "it's a job":( which I enjoy:D and so does my colleagues.
Owenski
12-04-11, 10:48 AM
Seems to me aaron you've felt a bit of a bum wrap in this thread, I for one dont disagree with the posts by Q or the ever subtle Speedplay. I do however think its been misinterprited and that infact you were just trying to establish some facts before making a more informed decision (ie to either accept it or leave).
Im not the most experianced employee in working Britain but here's a few things I've learnt:
1. Keep your mouth shut and your head down,
2. Mind your P's and Q's when with company,
3. Never confied in co-workers (they'll blow the whistle to save thier own ass).
4. If changes happen in policy - accept it ( or at least appear too while you seek work else where).
5. Give a serious review to your employer, ie are they actually a good employer is it purely the new changes which have rocked the boat or were you already looking for an excuse to leave?
6. Like speedy said, £85 less is prob still more than £65 on the doll so respect the fact your still getting paid.
7. Look at your personal expenses, do you have skysports etc which can save you £24/month if you were to scrap it making the hit only £61 - where else can you make similar savings which may ultimatly balance it all out anyway.
Finally and most importanlty, dont get sucked into complaining about employment on a public forum there will be many reading it who are far worse off than yourself and for that reason sympathy will be very hard to come by. The responses you get may leave you feeling a little battered and beaten, but thats purely the frustration of others coming out in thier words try not to take it too hard - and keep your chin up!
Biker Biggles
12-04-11, 04:28 PM
I know a boss who refuses leave at Xmas coz he has to tell his staff they have to work.
I know a boss who got his staff another £500 quid on their annual bonus and another 1.5% on their pay rise. And is currently arguing for a mid year rise coz inflation is higher than expected.
I know a boss who buys them lunch out of his own pocket as a thank you even though he could get it on expenses.
I know a boss who has paid for several holidays for employees and their families.
We're not all ****s
Just remember we are all in this together and your bosses will be taking a haircut just like you are.In my experience those who have most always lead by example and would not ask their poorer compatriots to make sacrifices which they would not make themselves.Then I woke up and stopped talking absolute sh1te.Join a union and stand together with thousands of others to defend yourself against this kind of exploitation.Employment is a battleground,and you need clout to avoid getting walked over.
Sounds like the OP doesnt work for one of the good guys though.Hence the need for some clout in the workplace warzone.Join one of the general unions like Unite and put up an organised front to the employer.It wont work a miracle,but it will stop arbitary pay cuts and bullying of individual workers who rarely meet their colleagues.
aaron020873
12-04-11, 06:09 PM
thanks owenski, finding out a few facts about my rights was the original intention of the thread, obviously pi**ed a few people off along the way though, but hey i don't take that to heart everyone is entitled to their opinion.
I agree many people are worse off than myself and my collegues but that doesn't give our boss the right to exploit us, hense the reason of targeting a large audience to see if anyone maybe more in the know about this sort of thing.
As for pay freeze's that some people have brought up, we have also not had a pay rise for 4 years which is why this is so hard to take, after all it's not just the companies cost of living that has gone up.
Biker Biggles
12-04-11, 06:25 PM
How are your bosses doing?Still driving the classy company cars and living in big houses at the expensive end of town?Still pulling salaries good enough to keep the kids at public school,the spouse in the accustomed luxury,and the servants happy?They will always look after themselves,but its up to you to take steps to look after your interests.They wont.
Aaron - I know you were looking for facts and still trying to see if there's anything examples I can get.
I'm Unite steward ( for my sins) and get het up about people being shafted however Ive been mgt for a long time too and get good at playing devils advocate. Everything I've posted has been used in arguments before re the stripping of T&C's
Probably not the next at putting it across at the mo (spending my days looking at botched contracts and policy changin) so apologies if its come across a little short - never intended.
And you have the right attitude for asking the question - and public forums are always good for getting the info you need.
From what I've found T&C's are the first thing to withdrawn and there is not lot you can do about it. They need to consult with you but this may be a this is what we are doing rather than what do you think about it.
any union will bargain on your behalf as a group once reocgnised, however at the mo you are all individual and its down to you to talk to the management about it.
If you have colleagues that will stick with you then great but as Owen says you don't want them stabbing you in the back when it comes doen to hard stuff.
Something not mentioned in all of this is the length of your working week. It might be worth keeping a diary of your hours worked, including the travel hours. If over a 17 week period your average is over 48 hrs you can argue the point. There used to be an opt out, which you had to agree to, before you could legally work more hours. If you exceed that, you could offer to opt out but only if they offer more money.
As others have said, you need to ask the right people.
http://www.direct.gov.uk/en/Employment/Employees/WorkingHoursAndTimeOff/DG_10029426
aaron020873
13-04-11, 03:56 PM
fair point there bri, another tact worth bearing in mind, thanks.
to quedos
appology accepted :)
at the moment we have just had a meeting and been told of the changes that are going to take place, we were given a letter detailing the reasons why, and then exactly what they intend to do ( or take off us) about it. We all read this and then tried to take it away with us but they wanted it back as it was only a rough draft???? so i will have to see what the real copy says. i have been told that we will have 1 months notice of the changes when they take place.
In the mean time i have lined myself up an interview for this friday at another company so fingers crossed i might not have to suffer these changes. And yes i know there is prob alot of people going for the job but i have to be positive..
Owenski
13-04-11, 04:13 PM
In that case pal, good luck in your interview:thumright:
aaron020873
13-04-11, 05:39 PM
thankyou :thumbsup:
Dave20046
13-04-11, 07:21 PM
Good luck - what is it you do by the way?
aaron020873
14-04-11, 03:04 PM
i'm a joiner dave.
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