Mini Twin Police!! [Archive] - SV650.org - SV650 & Gladius 650 Forum

TC252

16-04-11, 10:53 AM

Hi everyone,
I suppose all you able bodied racers will be off to East Fortune this weekend-i'm not at all jealous!!

So-time to throw a moggie amongst some pidgeons-maybe??

I was at the NEMCRC meeting at Croft last weekend-spectating. I was a little concerned about the fact that there was only 1 Curvy in the Minitwin field as i'm in no position to buy an injection. While walking round the paddock there were quite a lot of people talking about horsepower etc...
Looking at the Saturday results there were several "Modified" bikes that were beaten by "standard" bikes!

So-I think as far as the North East club is concerned, I'd like to start off a discussion about the MiniTwin class and the supposed 72 bhp limit.

First and foremost-the reason I chose MiniTwins is my limited cash funding, and I liked the idea of racing motorbikes and not chequebooks!!
So finding a class where the horsepower is limited was very appealing!

This week I got in touch with the MiniTwin Rider Rep at Bemsee and discussed how they "police" there class. She explained they have there own Dyno and the first three bikes in every race plus several random others are Dyno'd to ensure no "shenanigans"!

So now the crux....
we at the North East club dont have a dyno...So how can we ensure that everyone is on a level playing field as far as horsepower is concerned??

And yes-I know that it isn't just horsepower that leads to a good lap time!!

But the next time-if ever, that someone leaves me for dead out of a corner or blasts past me on a straight-(sound familiar to anyone?) at least the devil on my shoulder wont be shouting-what's he/she been doing we're all supposed to be limited to 72 brake!!

Lastly-this post is in no way aimed at anyone in MiniTwin racing-I just think we'd all be a lot happier if things were a bit more regulated!!

Happy Racing

TC 252

mike_red2uk

16-04-11, 01:10 PM

Too true Tony!
Ive glad you have the balls to raise this issue, Im tired of getting spanked in a straight line by what is meant to be equally powered machines, yes my body mass may have an infeluence but not to see supposed minitwins doing sub 1:36 Croft laptimes. And yes seeing minitwins faster than acknowledged lightweight 650 vtwins.
If everyone agrees, I would with pleasure contribute to the hire of a mobile Dyno at our next race meet!

crisis95

16-04-11, 01:27 PM

A dyno at north east and Melville meetings is well overdue. There was one for one meeting a couple of years ago but it was never seen again. Id happily pay a bit extra to cover it's cost.
Be prepared to be disappointed though. The vast majority of people are playing by the rules. Speed down the straight is dictated by your speed through the preceding corner. And you can't point the finger at lap times either. When the dyno was there, someone with a 68hp carby was doing 1.32's. But I agree it would stop people pointing fingers and get on with racing.

mike_red2uk

16-04-11, 04:57 PM

Speed down the straight is dictated by your speed through the preceding corner. .
i agree but that is not always the case, u know what i mean, Im not an idiot.
The point Tony has started here is, that we SHOULd as you put it "get on with racing", as opposed to look how fast my bike is!

coxxy

16-04-11, 07:13 PM

Bemsee do indeed use their dyno rigorously. We have been tested three times so far this season after only three rounds but that is what we want. We have also had our bike inspected for irregularities in the airbox, throttle butterflys, air solenoid sytem and fuel. Our rad has been questioned and we have had protracted discussions with scroots about ram air systems.
The bike is perfectly legal and each time its dyno'd and checked we know what it is turning out and that our front places are being honestly earned, which feels good enough.

The more checks you can get for your club the better.

coxxy

crisis95

16-04-11, 10:45 PM

mike_red2uk

16-04-11, 11:06 PM

Mike- I'm sure you're not an idiot mate, I'm in agreement with you and Tony. I'm just making the point that when the 72hp limit is enforced people will still pass you down the straight and achieve lap times that make you scratch your head and wonder how the **** did they do that? :-)

To explain my rebuff is as follows,
every lap at the weekend i would get on the gas early throught the chicane, sling shot past other minitwins only for them to then accelerate away along the back straight, not just pull away slightly but **** off from view! I could name names on here of lads racing on what I know are modified sv's as minitwins.
I accept the fact im no Valentino Rossi and yes other lads have more talent, I understand corner exit speed can then dictater the speed on the next straight, we have all got it right and indeed wrong on the same corner sometimes and seen the difference it makes. Tony and I are making a valid comment about pure straight line speed.

Getting a corner right, passing people in the corner or even catching them around the corner only for them then to pull sharply away is NOT playing fair.
My personal view is next year it might be worth an extra tank of diesel in the van to go and RACE with others on a level playing field.
Thats all we want in the northeast.
If people want to modify their power then let them be man enough as other have to sign up to the Lightweights.
Please this isnt an attack on yourself as ive seen how smooth you are, but its about time people got off the fence over this issue!
I think we could end off with a bad name for ourselves !!!

coxxy

17-04-11, 08:30 AM

Sam, do bemsee own the dyno or is it hired or provided by a sponsor?
I'm not racing north east this year but I would like to see the Scottish minitwin scene try and take enforcement of regs a bit more seriously. It's starting to take over from the 400's , a decent 21 bike field for east fortune this weekend so it's big enough to justify some enforcement.
Mike- I'm sure you're not an idiot mate, I'm in agreement with you and Tony. I'm just making the point that when the 72hp limit is enforced people will still pass you down the straight and achieve lap times that make you scratch your head and wonder how the **** did they do that? :-)

Yes Bemsee own their own dyno and use it at every meeting. On the power front we know of several minitwin engines being modified down here for use elsewhere - they wouldnt pass the Bemsee power tests though.
On the drive front, gearing springs to mind as we have found for certain circuits it matters more than we had imagined in the past - the more corners, the better 14:44/45 works for us.

Mike1234

17-04-11, 08:37 AM

One of the biggest problems in the class is that people feel the need to cheat to gain some kind of advantage but also others feel the need to cry foul when they are beaten. I totally understand that nagging doubt that comes in to your mind when you are overtaken but there are plenty of reasons why a bike should be able to drive past people even from something as simple as different gearing.

On the other hand there are also plenty of people riding bikes that they think are well set up but they have actually been shortchanged, particularly if it is a carb'd bike and very susceptible to engine temperature. Just because it has been on a dyno and was fuelling perfectly when just about warmed up it doesn't follow that it will still be fuelling well once the engine has been run during a race.

Carb'd bikes get tired. The inlet rubbers in the carbs do need replacing as they get weak with age and can be worth a couple of hp. Repacking your exhausts can give you back a couple of hp. A different model of exhaust can be worth several hp more than the next bike.

A fuel injected SV650 doesn't need a Power Commander as the best fuelling adjustment comes from adjusting the stock ECU using a Teka or Yoshi box. A good air filter and a good exhaust are all that is required. We used to use BMC Race filter and M4 or Leo Vince exhausts. I think Arata are supposed to be good also but have never used them.

For a carb'd bike most of the above holds true. A BMC Race RS filter works well and JHS Racing sell a dynojet kit that I used to fit (165 main jets if I recall) and, assuming it was fitted correctly, didn't even need a dyno to be confident that it was making optimum power.

At the end of the day do you think a bike with 70 hp will be hopelessly outclassed by a bike with 74 hp? Unlikely and the best advice is to not worry about it and focus on getting your own machine set up well and then learn to ride it the bets you can.

I am sure if you want to weed out a few people bending the rules then a dyno at an event will certainly help but a few manual inspections, even ones you can organise yourselves, won't hurt.

mike_red2uk

17-04-11, 10:54 AM

At the end of the day do you think a bike with 70 hp will be hopelessly outclassed by a bike with 74 hp? Unlikely and the best advice is to not worry about it and focus on getting your own machine set up well and then learn to ride it the bets you can.

Mike/and others,
please cease with the obvious, my bike (and tonys carby) has the correct gearing, which is changes to suit each track, it has a healthy engine, filter n full system, also has a PC dyno'd to give perfect fueling.
RIdden by lads who can ride.
This issue Tony started is releavent and not simply dismissed as a RIDER/GEARING/SLIGHT TUNING issue!!!

andrewsmith

17-04-11, 10:55 AM

To explain my rebuff is as follows,
every lap at the weekend i would get on the gas early throught the chicane, sling shot past other minitwins only for them to then accelerate away along the back straight, not just pull away slightly but **** off from view! I could name names on here of lads racing on what I know are modified sv's as minitwins.

Getting a corner right, passing people in the corner or even catching them around the corner only for them then to pull sharply away is NOT playing fair.

As spectator on this (non-racer), there was bikes at croft which were ****ing off on the straights, one that appeared suspect was running 14/ 47.

I do agree with the policing of the Northern classes as cheating seems to be common place.

Mike1234

17-04-11, 11:01 AM

Mike/and others,
please cease with the obvious, my bike (and tonys carby) has the correct gearing, which is changes to suit each track, it has a healthy engine, filter n full system, also has a PC dyno'd to give perfect fueling.
RIdden by lads who can ride.
This issue Tony started is releavent and not simply dismissed as a RIDER/GEARING/SLIGHT TUNING issue!!!

That's rather arrogant, I thought you were asking for advice from those with more experience than yourself. Just because you think your bike is well set up doesn't mean it actually is under race conditions.

As someone who oversaw the dyno at Bemsee for three years, and has kept in touch with the results since, I can tell you that many bikes, including those set up by quite experienced and reputable dyno operators, are not always optimum over the length of a race.

If you are so confident that your bike is at it's best then either stump up for a dyno to prove it or pay to protest the bikes you think are cheating. Both are easy to do but not quite as easy as complaining on an internet forum.

Mike1234

17-04-11, 11:03 AM

As spectator on this (non-racer), there was bikes at croft which were ****ing off on the straights, one that appeared suspect was running 14/ 47.

I do agree with the policing of the Northern classes as cheating seems to be common place.

If a bike has more power than it will still run out of revs running 14/47. It will give it more acceleration but less top speed. Obviously at the track in question better acceleration was more important.

mike_red2uk

17-04-11, 11:15 AM

That's rather arrogant, I thought you were asking for advice from those with more experience than yourself. Just because you think your bike is well set up doesn't mean it actually is under race conditions.

As someone who oversaw the dyno at Bemsee for three years, and has kept in touch with the results since, I can tell you that many bikes, including those set up by quite experienced and reputable dyno operators, are not always optimum over the length of a race.

If you are so confident that your bike is at it's best then either stump up for a dyno to prove it or pay to protest the bikes you think are cheating. Both are easy to do but not quite as easy as complaining on an internet forum.

Thats rather yet another stupid reply, I wasnt asking for advice personally, however drumming up support for paying for a Dyno at one of our race meeting yes!
I can see why so many dont bother raising this issue/fit a larger bore/ keep their mouths shut.
Divint shoot the messenger MIKE!
And dont worry it'll be the last time i complain on an internet forum pal!

Mike1234

17-04-11, 11:21 AM

Thats rather yet another stupid reply, I wasnt asking for advice personally, however drumming up support for paying for a Dyno at one of our race meeting yes!
I can see why so many dont bother raising this issue/fit a larger bore/ keep their mouths shut.
Divint shoot the messenger MIKE!
And dont worry it'll be the last time i complain on an internet forum pal!

So if you aren't interested in learning from the experience of others perhaps you could suggest modifications that could result in certain bikes driving away from you then?

Just how much extra horsepower, or torque, do you think they have? Can you explain the example of the faster accelerating bike using the 14/47 gearing when your gearing is apparently optimum?

Strange how the Bemsee SV650 MiniTwins lap records are generally faster than the big bore SV650 ThunderBike times at the same round...

andrewsmith

17-04-11, 11:52 AM

Mike what is need to be added on my half with the 14/47 gearing at croft, there is less than a second between a rider on 14/47 and riders on 14 or 15/45.

Also with croft and the club, minitwins and modified are in with GP125's so the pace is rapid and carnage 4 a few laps

TC252

17-04-11, 04:07 PM

Hello again all,
well it looks like i've kicked off an emotive issue and there seem to be ruffled feathers aplenty!!

First can I make a few things crystal clear...

I know it's not just horsepower that is a factor in a good lap time-i've already said that!!
At the moment there is simply zero policing of the North East and Scottish clubs.
I'd like to know what peoples opinions are about the fact that there is no policing in a class that has specific regulations regarding horsepower.
If horsepower makes no difference then why do Bemsee dyno bikes so rigorously??
Does anyone think that any club without dyno facilities should perhaps not run a MiniTwin class??
Would people be happier knowing that everyone in "our" class had been dyno'd??

The main reason I started all this is i'm having an enforced break from racing and i'm concerned about whether I should bother returning to a Club and Class that doesn't seem to be giving everyone a fair crack of the whip in a sport that is both very expensive and time consuming for the average working bloke-or even on the sick bloke!!!

I'm very inclined to go along with Mike's thoughts and choose Clubs and fixtures more carefully-i.e. try racing with Bemsee. Or maybe quit racing and just give track days a try??

Keep em coming!!!!

TC 252

Bibio

17-04-11, 05:27 PM

crisis95

17-04-11, 05:43 PM

I thought mike1234's reply's were spot on. Let's get a dyno at north east and Melville meetings and try and get a tech official familiar with the minitwin rule book and let him inspect the bikes. I'll email Diana at melville and I'll see what she thinks would be possible.
It would be in the clubs interest to sort it because it's one of their biggest grids. It's one of the reasons I'm not racing with NEMCRC as the addition of tuned minitwins has really muddied the water and there is zero policing of it.
Mike reed- if you rode a bike as quick as you took offence you wouldn't have to worry about people tuning their bikes.
Tony- Have you been in touch with the people who own the rights to the series name? They might have something to say on all this.

andrewsmith

17-04-11, 06:41 PM

i dont race but i'd like to ask a question.

as said the bhp limit is 72hp. for minitwins. is this why you dont see people racing hyosung gt650's as the quoted hp is 82?

so if a bike comes from the factory producing more hp that is allowed would you have to de-tune the said bike?

Has to be to the 72 brake limit, also Hyosung are known for overly optimistic power claims. Ducatti 800SS's are run but a retuned to comply. There is nothing illegal (within the rules) against running monster 796's is they're neutered 10 brake to match (in stock guise)

I thought mike1234's reply's were spot on. Let's get a dyno at north east and Melville meetings and try and get a tech official familiar with the minitwin rule book and let him inspect the bikes. I'll email Diana at melville and I'll see what she thinks would be possible.
It would be in the clubs interest to sort it because it's one of their biggest grids. It's one of the reasons I'm not racing with NEMCRC as the addition of tuned minitwins has really muddied the water and there is zero policing of it.
Mike reed- if you rode a bike as quick as you took offence you wouldn't have to worry about people tuning their bikes.
Tony- Have you been in touch with the people who own the rights to the series name? They might have something to say on all this.

To clarify here-say- has a dyno been mentioned to the North east club for ultralights?

On to melville, most racers who run a minitwin spec bike (like you Crisis, TC252, Mike, Berlin and whole load of other racers on here that run to spec bikes) some cheating that does go on there is not discreet. The dyno is a very good idea

The other options (I personally can see) to this is for clubs to go down the Irish Road racing/ Manx spec classes, which makes it a big bucks class against the ethos of the Minitwin idea or go down the same idea that Auto66 run, the Lites class

crisis95

17-04-11, 07:05 PM

To be honest Andy I don't think much cheating, if any, goes on.
I appreciate if you've been in my awning after I've come in and been frustrated at not winning you will have heard me say differently but racers are competitive little *******s and for those few minutes after the helmet comes off, like the footy manager with the microphone stuffed in his face, it's everyones fault but ours.
I can honestly say noone has ever beat me who didn't deserve it and I believe if your a worse rider than me an extra 4 hp isn't going to help you, I'll get past you.
I still want a dyno though ;-)

andrewsmith

17-04-11, 07:19 PM

I know what you mean with the frustration seen it often enough now to be immune.

Your just wanting a run for free!

mike_red2uk

17-04-11, 07:57 PM

Mike reed- if you rode a bike as quick as you took offence you wouldn't have to worry about people tuning their bikes.

HA HA HA HA HA too right ! :smt040

Berlin

17-04-11, 08:55 PM

I think they should also introduce a weight penalty system too :)

I'm a big fat man and its not fair that the blokes I'm competing against aren't carrying 7 stone (and sometimes more) of lead on their bike! :)

There should be a saddle bag system loaded with lard (for realism) and you have to strap your saddle bags on the bike before the race :)

I'm all for Dyno's at random meetings but what happens if you had your dyno set up dome on a 35 degree summers day and when it happens to be dyno'd at East Fortune in April and its 6 degrees? It would be making a lot more than it did in the summer.

If it were a fiver or a tenner to have it dyno'd at a race meeting I wouldn't object. Probably only those that knew their bike was likely to fail would.

I'd actually like to know what my bike puts out at each race meeting so I can see if it has any bearing on my race results. But that's just the scientist in me. I could probably find a better correlation to the number or beers we drank or the crapiness of the scrubs we're running :)

Yep, for me, bring on the dyno. It can only be a good thing.

C

keith_d

17-04-11, 09:21 PM

I'm not a racer, and have no axe to grind here. But if your meetings don't overlap with Bemsee every time would it be worth discussing with their management committee hiring their mobile dyno for a meeting?

There are a couple of reasons for this.

1) Some commercial dynos can overstate horsepower because this is what the customer wants to hear. The Bemsee dyno team are used to testing bikes accurately and that's really what you need.

2) If you're going to pay, it's better to keep the money in club racing. Even if it's not your club.

If you find big discrepancies, that's the evidence you need to push for regular dyno checks. If everyone is below 73 horsepower that's the subject closed.

Just a thought,

Keith.

Berlin

18-04-11, 12:19 PM

and just an aside to the above. if someone is found to be over that shouldn't mean they can't race, just that they go in the modified section.
and I'd be quite happy to have say a 2BHP disgressionary buffer just in case atmospherics do have an effect.

C

mike_red2uk

18-04-11, 12:52 PM

Roll out the Dyno tests!

crisis95

18-04-11, 01:56 PM

How would that work with Melville? They don't have a modified class. I think you should run in the thunderbikes with the 1098's to teach you a lesson.

Berlin

18-04-11, 02:17 PM

Yep, fine by me. Last time I tried that...I crashed :)

gavd

18-04-11, 02:29 PM

Interesting topic we have here lads, personally I would like to see a dyno at the north east/melville meetings although I think most of us would be bhp legal( some very good riders in our clubs i fink). I have had my bike on a dynojet and now a dynapro dyno showing 69bhp on the first and 63bhp on the dynapro (just a end can, filter and standard mapping) so we would also have to decide which dyno make to go for. re mike reed- i know your bike was set-up on a dynojet dyno so although you may think it is at max bhp for our class others may be using dynapro(quotes lower figures) but i dont wana upset you anymore after that last race at croft haha!!

Also if we enforced the rules to the letter i think we would have nearly no minitwins left at our club- for example tank spacers, dog bone lengths, fork caps, air box snorkels, and Pair system removal(mine is removed is this illegal mike?)(rules mike not mike reed) although it makes no differance to bhp i dont think.
But if we did enforce them i think this would create a much fairer playing field.

Power aint everything anyways i beat a couple rc8s, ducatis and fireblades on sunday at croft in the thunderbikes, Pity i couldnt recreate that form in the minitwins race lol .

coxxy

18-04-11, 05:50 PM

Pair system removal(mine is removed is this illegal mike?)

That aint legal - several riders caught out last season at MRO minitwins with missing solenoid and pipes - all blanked off. It has to be present as per stock bike but doesnt have to work.

Straight from Mike Edwards (horses mouth)

crisis95

18-04-11, 06:13 PM

Gav you cheat!:-p

gavd

18-04-11, 06:49 PM

Landed myself in it ther haha

anteater

18-04-11, 06:51 PM

Interesting topic we have here lads, personally I would like to see a dyno at the north east/melville meetings although I think most of us would be bhp legal( some very good riders in our clubs i fink).

Some very very good riders between the two clubs, and yes a good fresh debate. :thumbsup:

I have had my bike on a dynojet and now a dynapro dyno showing 69bhp on the first and 63bhp on the dynapro (just a end can, filter and standard mapping) so we would also have to decide which dyno make to go for. re mike reed- i know your bike was set-up on a dynojet dyno so although you may think it is at max bhp for our class others may be using dynapro(quotes lower figures) but i dont wana upset you anymore after that last race at croft haha!!

The intersting point about this is the minitwins rules have always been based on SAE method and dynapro dyno's.

Dynojet dyno's read higher as you've demonstrated above, and are usually quoted in DIN rather than SAE. Pretty much any machine that reads 75 bhp or less on a dynojet machine will actually be class legal. Above that I'd start to worry about yer legallity!

The minitwins site is down, but the regs in full are on the BEMSEE site;

http://www.bemsee.net/info-centre/cat_view/132-2011-class-regulations

The rule clarifiaction is also worth reading, a ram air effect isn't against the rules (if done right) ;)

anteater

18-04-11, 06:58 PM

anteater

18-04-11, 07:11 PM

Has to be to the 72 brake limit, also Hyosung are known for overly optimistic power claims. Ducatti 800SS's are run but a retuned to comply. There is nothing illegal (within the rules) against running monster 796's is they're neutered 10 brake to match (in stock guise)

More intresting points here;

Hyosung, dont think they are really 80 in stock trim (although Hyosung claim it, it has to be a crank measurement)

800ss is an easy one to explain; they dont need detuned, a set of cans, K&N filter and a power comander lift you up to the class limit from about 66-67 ish, and thats it, nowt else is touched. The Ducati advantage is more torque, but this is levelled out by the extra weight...... also it's all over by 8000 rpm, SV's and ER's rev higher and liquid cooling always gives a higher specifc power for a given capacitry compared to air cooled.

Did anyone ever read my build thread on Ducati up north? I did a couple of posts on dyno stuff between the SS and the ER6 (strongest engine in the class from what I've seen) :)

I think a 796 would struggle to get below the class limit; it's a modern engine streets ahead of the ss lump in design but; I reckon a 696 could easily be set up to be 70-ish hp and would be the better bike for doing so, lighter and more nible than the 796, double sided swinger helps a lot with this.

Apart from all that, I'm all for a dyno............... at a meeting near me soon!

mike_red2uk

18-04-11, 07:18 PM

Landed myself in it ther haha

no Gav, you landed me in it! in the 2nd sunday race.

:smt019

mike_red2uk

18-04-11, 07:26 PM

Gav you cheat!:-p

now now Gordon!
Remember to generalise and not be specific ;)

We all agree atleast a dyno test would stop the cheaters (i could be specific but i wont) as well as the wingers ! :mrgreen:

There were only 10 mintwins at Croft this weekend? Is that not telling the club summit?:smt115 Gordon you choice to race where you want is exactly the same thought both Tony and I am thinking, so how many others have or will their be?

crisis95

18-04-11, 09:33 PM

Clubs tend not to think in terms of the class but the grid. That much was evident at the club meetings I went to. And the ultralight grid was big so they see the class as a success and I can understand where they're coming from.

If we want things better for our class we're going to have to fight for it. 22 minitwins on the Sunday at east fortune I think, if you added the north east lads who don't race with Melville it would be over 30 minitwins. Only bemsee can better that in the whole country.

The interest is there, we need to take a leaf from bemsee's book now and start doing it right.

Naughty Wheelie

18-04-11, 09:51 PM

andrewsmith

19-04-11, 07:48 AM

so what if your bike isnt making 72 hp. but you wack a tank riser in or remove the snorkel to give you that extra bit. so it makes it 72 hp. would that make any difference. as long as your bike is under that magic number

Ilegal mods mate. Stripping the snorkel is classed as modifying the air box.
Depending upon how the club runs the classes, you'd be plonked in the modified class (North East Club) or Thunderbikes or not allowed to race

The snorkel mod does give a bhp gain as the air box is freer flowing. I think gains of 3 bhp have been had

Berlin

19-04-11, 08:39 AM

Yep, a race system, good air filter and remap and (if required) later cams, (in the right way round) should easily see it hit 72.

Big bore kits, cams accidentally put in backwards or accidentally purchased from JHS, accidental port polishing and gas flowing are all a little bit naughty.

... and don't get me started on fork caps! :-P

C

toot

19-04-11, 11:34 AM

Well, my fork caps are now standard. And i only had them in as i had read the rules as i could. :smt019 :rolleyes:

So, at all north east and hopefully Melville meetings (to be sorted) any bike found with none Minitwin kit, that includes parts removed will be in the modified group.

That includes :- Airbox mods, snorkel removal, dog bones, tank risers, solenoid and pipes, master cylinders, forced air induction, fork caps, 72 BHP and everything else stated in the rules.

This can of worms has been opened. Enjoy....................

crisis95

19-04-11, 03:10 PM

Howay Tony and Mike you've gone all quiet. You should be applauding toots efforts to clean out the cheats.
...or have you just remembered those fork caps and dog bones?

What's a solenoid?

Berlin

19-04-11, 03:23 PM

What's a solenoid?

Something that'll go away in a about a week with the right cream.

green1

19-04-11, 03:58 PM

crisis95,
whats a solenoid,thats a bit teckno for you leave it to your man !!!!
you concentrate on draining the water out over the winter dont overload
yourself with the technical side.

crisis95

19-04-11, 04:22 PM

Yes, it's nice to have someone who knows what they're doing spannering for you. Especially when you font know one end of a bike from another.

If you could do better than 7th someone might think it was worth helping you out...:-)

mike_red2uk

19-04-11, 05:08 PM

This can of worms has been opened............

Dont you mean a barrel of snakes? :confused:

toot

19-04-11, 05:24 PM

Nope, worms it is Mike.

And i'm not the one that opened it. ;)

mike_red2uk

19-04-11, 05:31 PM

worms always remind me of spaghetti

Berlin

19-04-11, 05:53 PM

You're buying the wrong kind of spaghetti!

mike_red2uk

19-04-11, 06:02 PM

See thats it, I can only afford the Lidl stuff :(

TC252

19-04-11, 06:44 PM

Blimey-the moggie's slayed so many pidgeons it might be time to call the RSPCA!!!

So lets just clarify a couple of things

If I want to race in Pre Injection 600, I have to have er... a 600 and er... it must have carbs on it???
Now I see those as class regulations-correct??
So if I 'forget' to leave the carbs on and accidentally fit injectors does that mean I cant race PI 600??

So if the 'Minitwin' class regulations say 'no dog bones, no tank spacers, etc etc...surely it means if I have dog bones or tank spacers fitted then surely-NO!! I cant race in Minitwins!!!

It sounds pretty simple to me!!

The only reason there are any worms in any cans is also simple!!

Too many people haven't tried to sort this situation out for too long!!

It's yet again simple!! It's time we all took a good hard look at the MiniTwin regs, sort out a Dyno and someone to inspect bikes for conformity and we would have a class to be proud of, ran along the same lines as Bemsee, and to quote Gordon 'we'd stop finger wagging and get on with racing!!

MiniTwins is supposed to be an entry level type class with minmal outlay...It's supposed to encourage people to give road racing a try.
In my opinion it should be well policed and regulated if it's not then surely we'll be nipping many racing careers in the bud!!

Come on Tiddles-it's time for your milk!!!

TC 252

mike_red2uk

19-04-11, 06:53 PM

is that full fat or semi skimmed?

leon#51

19-04-11, 06:54 PM

By solinoid i take u mean the pair system?

TC252

19-04-11, 06:55 PM

MiniTwin cat feeding rules say only fully skimmed allowed!!

You should be in Thunder Cats!!!

Berlin

20-04-11, 07:06 AM

Dyno Pricing Menu
Dyno Hire Hourly (minimum half hour £20)
Per Hour
£35.00
Dyno Hire per day (bring your karts, parts and some friends) 9.30 - 16.30
Per Day
£150.00
Mobile Dyno Hire (plus £1.20 per mile return trip)
Per Day
£175.00
Dyno Testing at the track or Dyno Shootout (inc. report)
Per Run
£15.00

From Here (http://www.viper-racinguk.co.uk/html/dyno_testing.html)

So ignoring the transport costs, because he's nowhere near the tracks, its about 8 quid a head if there's 21 minitwins in a race, with no subsidy from the club.

add in the transport costs for a bloke in Scotland who's say 50 miles from the track and its about £15 a head without subsidy from the club.

if it was a full grid it'd be down to £8.75 if the hire and transport was £350

and I can't believe in a paddock full of race bikes no one there would want a run for a tenner. So spread that across even more people and it works out at about a fiver a head.

So who's going to organise it? Is it to be a Minitwinner who knows the rules or a Scrutineer that may not be fully conversant with them?

toot

20-04-11, 08:31 AM

Good find Carl. but we obviously need to find one thats nearer for us to use. That's the problem at the minute. Wasn't there about 9 MT's at Croft ?

Bob Grant has one in his shop at knockhill. Hopefully the club can sort something out with him. It would still be good to find a mobile one as well for the other two circuits.

It will be two existing scrutineers that will be checking the bikes for conformity.

I agree with Tony. It's been left too long and needed to be looked at. The club agree with this and are sorting it, that can only be a good thing.

Not sure anyone will be finishing any further up/down the field from it, but we'll see.

TC252

20-04-11, 09:09 AM

Right then lads and lasses.

After getting a good look at my shoulder Xrays on Monday and realising my arm looks like Barry Sheenes legs I may be looking to retire from racing-but it's not 100% yet!!

If it comes down to retiring then what you have here is one willing volunteer-and they say 1 volunteer is worth 10 pressed men!!

So if the club need somebody to be trained up and operate said Dyno and impliment some MiniTwin class checks and tests then i'm prepared to put my name in the frame!!

As i've still got at least another 2 months spare time on my hands I could even try chasing up on some of Carls research and see what we can sort.
That's if everyone would be agreeable to that.

I'd like as much feedback as possible though-cos I dont want to become as popular as a Fa*t in a spacesuit!!!

Bring It On !!!

TC 252

andrewsmith

20-04-11, 09:11 AM

Cracking find mate, I'd say that cost would come cheaper very quickly. As 21 Scrut Dyno runs would be roughly 4 hours @ 10 minute runs.

Having a re-read through this again. The right can of worms has been opened at the right time.

mike_red2uk

20-04-11, 09:48 AM

Can I just say, welldone to all of us for this honest thread, lets hope things do change, for the better for everyone

crisis95

20-04-11, 10:49 AM

It's great it's getting sorted but I still detect far to much joy at what should be a fairly minor admin matter.

Yes great, let's get peoples bikes checked but the vast majority of people are playing by the rules. For those that feel they're being held back from being at the front by the vast army of cheats in front of them, all I can say is you're in for a nasty shock.
The only change that will come from this is those that are frustrated at their lack of progress will realise it's their riding that needs attention not everyone elses bikes.

toot

20-04-11, 11:36 AM

Totally agree with Gordon. After all this is in place, i very much doubt the finishing positions will be that different. But atleast you know your on a level playing field...

Tony, I would get in touch with Matty and see how you could help the club on that side. I doubt we would get involved in the actual running of the Dyno but an extra set of hands the club could alway use.

Berlin

20-04-11, 12:16 PM

Cracking find mate, I'd say that cost would come cheaper very quickly. As 21 Scrut Dyno runs would be roughly 4 hours @ 10 minute runs.

Nowhere near that long Andy. A couple of minutes a bike. Roll it on, strap it down, run it, take it off.

It could be done in a lunch hour for 21 bikes.

and of course they could also be done during scrutineering in the morning and on the night before the racing.

Well done Tony. You might even end up with a little business for yourself there ;)

C

anteater

20-04-11, 12:20 PM

Back in 2007 (I was on F400 at the time) N.E. club brought a dyno to the May meeting at East Fortune.

Worth asking someone in the club if they can remember where they got it from?

PS, it's true to say the minor infringements happen a lot - quite often innocently, but like has been said, I dont beleive there is whole scale mass cheating going, you'll still find the guys that can do 1:05's will be still be doing them after the crows have flown in & gobbled up all the worms.

On the flip side how many bods will be running around frantic at lunctimes trying to sqeeze 3hp out of their set up when the've been dyno'd at 69 on the sae method! ;) Could be fun.....

andrewsmith

20-04-11, 01:12 PM

Nowhere near that long Andy. A couple of minutes a bike. Roll it on, strap it down, run it, take it off.

It could be done in a lunch hour for 21 bikes.

and of course they could also be done during scrutineering in the morning and on the night before the racing.

Well done Tony. You might even end up with a little business for yourself there ;)

C

Thats what i was working on that bike scrut is at the same time.
Tony good luck with gettin involved with the clubs

Berlin

20-04-11, 01:14 PM

You realise how many big bore kits are going on Ebay if this happens? :)

EssexDave

20-04-11, 01:30 PM

[QUOTE=Berlin;2521893]I think they should also introduce a weight penalty system too :)

I'm a big fat man and its not fair that the blokes I'm competing against aren't carrying 7 stone (and sometimes more) of lead on their bike! :)

There should be a saddle bag system loaded with lard (for realism) and you have to strap your saddle bags on the bike before the race :)

I can offer you a simple solution to this issue.

£35(ish) per month will buy you a gym membership. This amount will easily be saved by reducing the booze intake, and eating less food. This way, it's easy to make yourself competitive in terms of your weight.

Competitive bike racing (for those that wish to move up and progress) should include fitness. Strapping 10 stone of weight to each rider that isn't obese is not really an option that I would find acceptable or satisfying.

I'm assuming your post was meant in a slightly sarcastic way, and I can appreciate the need for a weight controlled class. However, it should not be there to allow fat oafs to compete in a sport where fitness IS a factor.

mike_red2uk

20-04-11, 01:54 PM

If this is put in place, I do hope it is.
The fast lads will still be fast, but atleast they'll have the reward of doing it in a true minitwin championship.
So as we have seen, lads will stop walking away to other clubs or championships!
I personally never raised this issue out of contempt for being slow and overweight, it was purely from the side of integrity. As a Chartered Surveyor I deal with millions of pounds of payment on a monthly basis, so integrity is my highest if not only trait.
So im sorry if as Tony said feathers have been ruffled, but at the end of the day we are the ones paying alot of our own hard earned cash to take part in this sport.
So anyhow, can Tony work a Dyno with only one arm?:rolleyes:

crisis95

20-04-11, 02:50 PM

green1

20-04-11, 03:44 PM

sorry no motors for sale,but i might have a quickshifter,slipper clutch,brembo brakes,skimmed heads and some huuuuuuge cams going spare.

andrewsmith

20-04-11, 03:52 PM

anyone got a nos system going spare? :lol:

Berlin

20-04-11, 04:39 PM

mike_red2uk

20-04-11, 05:27 PM

There's no feathers being ruffled and I'm all for the enforcement of the rules. I'm just against the "that'll sort them" attitude and the presumption of cheating going on at the front. And that's what you mean, because no one gives a **** what's going on behind them do they?

Anyway, has anybody got a standard motor for sale as mines developed a..er..fault.

Was never aimed at anyone, just the situation, I'd love to see all machines turn out to be standard !:rolleyes:
Anyone wana buy some tank risers?

Glad to see humour lives on, after all someone did say all this was meant to be fun! :cheers:
I'll see TC252 tonight as we ganin to watch that TT3D, so i'll encourage his approach to the club.

toot

20-04-11, 05:28 PM

So im sorry if as Tony said feathers have been ruffled, but at the end of the day we are the ones paying alot of our own hard earned cash to take part in this sport.

I don't think anyones feathers have been russled at all Mike. If it relates to me saying about a can of worms. That relates to people on here complaining about the 72 bhp rule when they know their bike is not Minitwin legal for various reasons.

No mentioning any names mind :cool:

mike_red2uk

20-04-11, 05:30 PM

I don't think anyones feathers have been russled at all Mike. If it relates to me saying about a can of worms. That relates to people on here complaining about the 72 bhp rule when they know their bike is not Minitwin legal for various reasons.
Got me standard fork caps getting fitted as we speak (type) :mrgreen:

yorkie_chris

20-04-11, 05:56 PM

There's a few cases in point about people breaking the rules innocently.

To name a few, the PAIR system, which does next to bugger all except cause a bit of popping and farting on the overrun, and costs nowt to get rid of. Or fork caps, I've seen quite a number of the carpimoto/matris fork kit caps on bikes which are illegal, yet are literally exactly the same function as the stock, preload only, fork cap. But they look purdy.

mike_red2uk

20-04-11, 06:04 PM

yorkie_chris

20-04-11, 06:08 PM

I was considering stamping my modified ones with C or R depending which adjustment is hidden inside which, but I think I'll leave them be. Just hope I/someone else can remember right = rebound.

leon#51

20-04-11, 06:37 PM

So the removal of the pair system is illegal, that i never knew as all it does is put fresh air into the exhaust lol!

Naughty Wheelie

20-04-11, 07:10 PM

sorry no motors for sale,but i might have a quickshifter,slipper clutch,brembo brakes,skimmed heads and some huuuuuuge cams going spare.

Al take the lot. if you carnt beat them join them..... lol

coxxy

20-04-11, 08:09 PM

Yes great, let's get peoples bikes checked but the vast majority of people are playing by the rules. For those that feel they're being held back from being at the front by the vast army of cheats in front of them, all I can say is you're in for a nasty shock.
The only change that will come from this is those that are frustrated at their lack of progress will realise it's their riding that needs attention not everyone elses bikes.

I believe this to be true too and this has come about at Bemsee following two seasons of constant checking of bikes. Every podium bike and a selection of up to 6 others from the following pack, middle or back - it hasnt mattered. This has put more pressure on riders to perform better in their riding, suspension set up and tyre use - as well as ensuring their bikes are legal. It has made the class very competitive and full due to the attraction of a real stock series that is also relatively cheap.
Lap times have come down and records broken at Cadwell and Snetterton by a significant margain in the last 6 months of racing - Bemsee may have taken a real lead on this but other clubs should do all they can to catch up. This Good friday finds Bemsee MRO minitwins represented at the BSB meet at Brands Hatch. Practice, Qualifying plus three races of 12 laps in one day - a real endorsement of the quality in the class.

toot

20-04-11, 08:13 PM

What happens if someone reads 73bhp on the dyno Coxxy ?

andrewsmith

20-04-11, 08:15 PM

What happens if someone reads 73bhp on the dyno Coxxy ?

+1

as 1 brake make a very marginal difference

toot

20-04-11, 09:02 PM

It's still illegal :smt104 :D

andrewsmith

20-04-11, 09:06 PM

It's still illegal :smt104 :D

I know that 72.1 bhp at crank is ilegal, am with you and would like to know how Besmee go about it.

Be a laugh to turn up with Pixie's bike or Dave Bell's ER6 and see how much they've got over everyone else

crisis95

20-04-11, 09:07 PM

I'd be very surprised if there's a tolerance. If you say it's 72 but 73's ok then it's a 73 hp limit isn't it?
I'd like to know what happens if you fail it. Are you whipped naked through the paddock?
How does the bemsee dyno compare to dynojet dyno's? Ive been told it's a dynapro and reads lower than dynojet. This could of course be bollox.

yorkie_chris

20-04-11, 09:09 PM

Dynojets do overread. All started with the Vmax...

toot

20-04-11, 09:26 PM

So if you were found to be 74bhp. whats the best way to lose the power, restrict the airflow a tad ?? or get the bike really hot and dyno it again !!

yorkie_chris

20-04-11, 09:38 PM

Loads of tricks.
Half the tuners out there use them to make their "before" and "after" numbers look good :-P

andrewsmith

20-04-11, 09:40 PM

you implying the testing maps YC?

yorkie_chris

20-04-11, 09:42 PM

Huh?

All I am saying is there are ways to make dynos read big numbers and small ones and if you wanted to be a proper cheat you would think of a way.

andrewsmith

20-04-11, 09:45 PM

I was told that most dyno's (i think it was Dynojet units) have 3 different condition modes which all give different results.

yorkie_chris

20-04-11, 09:49 PM

Yeah.

Basically a dyno measures acceleration of a big bit of metal*. This is a dead simple calculation to determine the amount of power. It's absolute, no buggering about, physics.

Then you make it complicated by getting correction factors involved to try and guess what difference certain atmospheric conditions make to the engine, the idea being that the same engine will give the same numbers at different conditions. It doesn't work, all a dyno is good for is vague comparisons or precise back-to-back runs.

*An inertial one anyway, a brake one is even simpler in simple terms

coxxy

21-04-11, 08:36 AM

What happens if someone reads 73bhp on the dyno Coxxy ?

Good question. Firstly the bemsee dyno does under read against other dynos by approx 5%. Secondly, they test engines immediately after a race when they are very hot so would tend to be lower anyway. Most riders are more than happy to get 70 ish in these conditions. If it were to read over at 73 then its illegal and the rider would be disqualified according to the rules. In practice they do issue advisories for minor transgressions, against any rule, and then disqualify if no action is taken. Of course there is always the protest rule for riders who are not happy with these common sense arrangements?

This set up is probably the best you could ask for in the situation and judging by the performance of the front riding bikes there is nothing between them on power in a straight line. It all seems even and fair at Bemsee MRO.