Independence referendum..

[The Guru]

When (not if) theres a referendum on independence what would you vote?

[Bibio]

independence.

i would like to see it happen, i'm not an english hatter (far from it) i would just like to see us make a go of it. ok so it might take a cppl hundred years or it might take a cppl decades but if other countrys can do it then i'm sure that we could.

[TamSV]

My feelings exactly Bibio. I'd like to see Scotland stand amongst the other nations of the World. Too many Scots believe the pish about us being subsidised. Independence removes the excuses and we need to get on with it.

I hope it's not taken the wrong way in England though. It gets misrepresented as some kind of anti-English thing but that's just the football :)

I'll be voting Yes by the way.

[WeegieBlue]

I'm English and have lived in Glasgow for 7 years now. I think it may be a bad idea. I would expect a lot of companies would leave the new independent Scotland especially if Salmond gets his way and starts playing with taxes. Its not broke so why try to fix it?

I haven't looked into it too much but I just have a feeling it would all end in tears.

[Sally]

Lets be honest, if it isn't broke, its not far from it.

I can't disagree with what Tam said!

[The Basket]

I will vote no.

[gedt5]

i'm all for staying in the union.
i was more than happy to give the snp my vote for gov. as i think they have done a good job minus a few wee mistakes [ala magrahi] but i would defo vote no to independence.

[Milky Bar Kid]

i'm all for staying in the union.
i was more than happy to give the snp my vote for gov. as i think they have done a good job minus a few wee mistakes [ala magrahi] but i would defo vote no to independence.

I'd also vote no.

As for Abdel Baset Al Megrahi....not a chance in hell Kenny MacAskill made that decision without instruction from Westminster and the Whitehouse!:rolleyes:

[Dicky Ticker]

Could the no voters expand by giving reasons please as I believe in hearing both sides of an argument

[The Basket]

I just hope that any referendum is based on cold hard facts.

Not petty nationalism. We shall see.

[fenjer]

I'd vote yes in a referendum.

I think an independent Scotland could bring a wealth of benefits to a lot of aspects of our lives, NHS, policing, farming, imports/exports, immigration, jobs, improved economy, perhaps even a reduction in the bureaucratic bullpoo that gets filtered across from Europe and Westminster.

edit: While I am proud to call myself Scottish, I am not "anti-English", nor anti European. I just think we, as a country have enough oompf about us to go it alone. My point in my idle banter post still applies though, there are far too many people who are not aware of the full implications and impacts of independence. It's things like "I'll need to show my passport every time I go to Carlisle" (MBK - it's not just you that I've heard express that sentiment so that isn't to be taken personally) that people fixate on, and that frankly wouldn't be true. We're not about to resurrect Hadrians Wall and have armed guards at the border....

[Blue Flame]

... We're not about to resurrect Hadrians Wall and have armed guards at the border....

Agreed but the other side of 'no mans land' might be a different scenario entirely ;)

[carelesschucca]

I like the idea of independence but it may and probably would cost me my Job and most of the 2000 people that work in my building.

[appollo1]

if Scotland was to be independant then what would happen to the UK Armed Forces? There are lots of Scottish people that are based at units in Englandshire so would they have to move back to Scotland and would all the English folk stationed in Scotland have to move back to Englandshire?

Scotland could not afford to run its own Armed Forces. Look at what is happening to all 3 services across the UK with all the job cuts, aircraft, ships and equipment being reduced.

[Milky Bar Kid]

The thing about the passport was mentioned because it cannot be ruled out. None of us can say for definate that England, if it becomes a foreign country, won't decide that they want a border control!

Anyway,as I have already stated, I cannot fathom how we could possibly sustain our independence. Our unemployment rates are sky high, people living off benefits are sky high, we have some of the highest rates of alcoholism, drug abuse, heart disease and obesity in Europe. I just think independence is biting off more than we can chew.

And I echo Apollos sentiments about Armed Forces. Similiar can be said about Police mutual aid resources.

[Bibio]

i find some of the responses quite interesting.

i think a lot of people have the misconception that everything would come crashing down and that once Scotland became an independent country that was that and we would be left to our own devices. thats never going to happen. it will take decades to gain actual 'full' independence form the union. there are far toooooo many variables at stake to cut ties in one go.

as for the police force, well dont we already pay for our own as it is.

as to the armed forces, that would be decided by the powers that be.

for all those scardy cats that think the world is going to end if we do gain independence then let me put your minds at ease and say that NOTHING will change. ok we may end up paying more tax buuuut at the same time we might just end up paying less.

[carelesschucca]

Bibio are you willing to guarantee my income if we split? If you can yeah I'm quite happy to be run by a government that our country wants.

[WeegieBlue]

Can anyone tell me some actual tangible benefits of independence? Do you not think that it'll be the same old story, just with the people making the decisions being a bit closer to home?

[Bibio]

that would depend on what you do for a living. if you are some quango employee sitting in an office making stuff up as you go to keep yourself in a job, then i'm afraid it would be the axe then again maybe not, job creation and all that to lift the spirits of the public.

if on the other hand you are part of the NHS/services then i would presume that your job would be safe.

this is all speculation and the only way to find out would to go independent.

from what i know and that was yeeeears ago Scotland gets £50b form westminster to run our affairs but when asked what the actual figures are that we send its point blank refused and always come up with some excuse or another.

[The Basket]

To say that Scotland should be independent is purely a nationalist policy sounds to me.

It isnt based on economic or military or social or transport...nobody has the first idea what will happen as Scotland has never been independent before in the last 300 years. So it is a total case of hope for the best.

The idea that anyone can vote independent and for the standard of living to fall means you are voting to be poorer? How does that fly?

You can't eat a flag.

[Bibio]

how do you come up with 'the standard of living will fall' that's just media bullshizz.

i'm going to stop now.

[Milky Bar Kid]

To say that Scotland should be independent is purely a nationalist policy sounds to me.

It isnt based on economic or military or social or transport...nobody has the first idea what will happen as Scotland has never been independent before in the last 300 years. So it is a total case of hope for the best.

The idea that anyone can vote independent and for the standard of living to fall means you are voting to be poorer? How does that fly?

You can't eat a flag.

+1

[The Basket]

how do you come up with 'the standard of living will fall' that's just media bullshizz.

i'm going to stop now.

How do you come up with the standard of living will rise?

Thats just media Bullshizz.

Nice of you to say that due to independence you have lost your job.

that would be comfort to those who do.

[Dicky Ticker]

Unfortunately nobody can guarantee that you will keep your job,the old job for life scenario went out the window a long time ago Many moons ago I worked in Glasgow then Bathgate in the vehicle industry but when things got iffy I moved down south thinking it would be more secure-------wrong
A fact of today's modern life is you have to go where the work is,hoping to stay put and waiting for it to come to you isn't the answer
Funding for public services such as Police and Fire Service are part of your local rates so these can be taken out of the equation. Like some others I would like to know how much revenue is generated for the national coffers by Scotland
I would want to know all the facts before national pride would influence a descision and this will probably be in the minds of most voters.Till that day I reserve my perch on the fence

[The Basket]

Unfortunately nobody can guarantee that you will keep your job,the old job for life scenario went out the window a long time ago Many moons ago I worked in Glasgow then Bathgate in the vehicle industry but when things got iffy I moved down south thinking it would be more secure-------wrong
A fact of today's modern life is you have to go where the work is,hoping to stay put and waiting for it to come to you isn't the answer
Funding for public services such as Police and Fire Service are part of your local rates so these can be taken out of the equation. Like some others I would like to know how much revenue is generated for the national coffers by Scotland
I would want to know all the facts before national pride would influence a descision and this will probably be in the minds of most voters.Till that day I reserve my perch on the fence

Sounds like a plan to me. Good call.

[husky03]

timing is great eh?-just as the oil is about to run dry in the north sea, you'll get the braveheart mob shouting for independance-yeh right-by all means be responsible for your own affairs but as local councils have shown already they can't run a single town correctly never mind a country.

[punyXpress]

Just wish you'd done this 15 years ago.
. . and kept the Member for Dunfermline East and ( separately ) Kirkcaldy your side of 'adrian's wall.

[Kilted Ginger]

what are the tangible benefits??
Other than the nationalistic shout of freedom, what will it change, never mind improve??
I would like to see an educated and informed debate, but frankly i dont think that will happen. It will be media and spin and flag waving rhetoric, style over substance.
North sea oil.. running out fast, who says we could claim it as our anyway, the world is becoming smaller, why would we want to become more insular rather than more connected.Britain plays an over inflated role in the world as it is due to historic empires and inflated egos, look at other countries our size and how much they interfere / contribute to wolrd events. Would we be big enough to become small, not to be "important" but to concentrate on self interests and improvement, i dont believe so.
Have a look at other like sized countries and their taxes, income, standard of living, world status, etc.
We are a small, moderately industrialized, poor service tourist economy, ISLAND. which in itself presents many issues. I understand the blood pumping, freedom, hard done to, unlistened to attitude but i cannot see a deceleration of independence changing that much.

[TamSV]

Here's some excerpts from the McCrone Report commissioned by the Heath Government in the 1970's and then stamped "Top Secret" and buried for 30 years. It remained secret under the Callaghan, Thatcher, Major and Blair Governments until released under a Freedom of Information request.

"..large revenues and balance of payments gains would indeed accrue to a Scottish Government in the event of independence...The country would tend to be in chronic surplus to a quite embarrassing degree and its currency would become the hardest in Europe...just as deposed monarchs and African leaders have used the Swiss franc as a haven of security, so now would the Scottish pound be seen as a good hedge...the Scottish banks could expect to find themselves inundated with a speculative inflow of foreign funds"

Things don't change..

"Our biggest problem is lowering the expectations of the Scottish people" Martin O'Neill MP (Labour) 1984

"We have got to engender fear of the SNP" Douglas Alexander MP (Labour) in a leaked memo, 1999

[stuartyboy]

I'd also vote no.

Since when did someone from Germany have a say?

[lammypie]

Though i was born english id vote yes.. (then i can make up jokes about it being our version of mexico) just kidding.. same opinion as northern ireland. If the people that live there want independance they should ofcourse be allowed to have it.. and holyrood seems to be doing alot better job than westminster at the moment. i just hope its well thought out and about the facts instead of a campain slogan of a weegie screaming about hating the english

[Milky Bar Kid]

Since when did someone from Germany have a say?

Seriously. How long have I been on the forum? I'll let you into a wee secret...*whisper mode* I'm not really from Germany...

[The Basket]

I see.

Oh dear. Ah well.

[carelesschucca]

isn't it lucky we weren't independant when The Royal Bank of Scotland went bust.

[The Basket]

isn't it lucky we weren't independant when The Royal Bank of Scotland went bust.

And HBOS.

[Blue Flame]

Looks like the Independants are streaks ahead in the poll :)

[stuartyboy]

Seriously. How long have I been on the forum? I'll let you into a wee secret...*whisper mode* I'm not really from Germany...
Seriously...I've no idea how long you've been on the forum but I go on what I've seen and read from you - bumping your gums and sniping about this year's GM when you're not actually going - hypocritical:rolleyes:

You might not "be" from Germany but if you're "domiciled" there then you didn't don't have a say and preaching from afar is as hypocritical at its best!

[SoulKiss]

Being a Scot myself, thought I'd pitch my pennysworth.

I'm not sure if I would want independence or not, as said there are a huge number of factors that I just don't know enough about to make that decision yet.

However on the "where would the money come from" question if Independence WAS the way forwards. Feel free to pick holes in the following, most of it is being written as I think of it rather than it having been a considered set of thoughts, condensed over months of mulling over...

Simple, as a resource-poor (lets leave the oil out of it for now, as said, its running out) nation then the economy has to be fueled by the people, so its going to be skills based.

Fortunately we have a history of doing just that, so IF that can be re-ignited then wheres the problem?

Which skills, well it has been mentioned how well regarded the Scottish members of the UK Armed forces are, wouldn't it make sense to focus on this.

Ok so it means effectively becoming Soldiers for Hire, but the support infrastructure for such a venture would fuel employment, after all the weapons and equipment need to be designed and built somewhere, and by keeping that internal, would create jobs.

I have to admin that the idea above comes from some books I read years ago - http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dorsai!

One spin off of the becoming "World Police" would be the need for Language to become important, which would also lead to the possibility of the Scots becoming brokers in business with us providing Translation services to the world, if every Scot was taught to be fluent in even one World Language other than English (and I guess we should learn English too). The Language thing would serve the Armed Forces well as well as the Business World.

So basically, build an economy based on the People.

[fenjer]

Seriously...I've no idea how long you've been on the forum but I go on what I've seen and read from you - bumping your gums and sniping about this year's GM when you're not actually going - hypocritical:rolleyes:

You might not "be" from Germany but if you're "domiciled" there then you didn't don't have a say and preaching from afar is as hypocritical at its best!

Stuart, what the heck are you talking about, she's from Newton Stewart and she lives there you walnut. Anyone is entitled to a say and an opinion on anything they wish. And unless I'm reading different threads to everyone else MBK has hardly commented on the GMIV. Unless it's the top secret PM pact thing again...

:-s

AND even if she was "domiciled" in Germany, as a Scottish (or British as MBK may prefer) national she would still be entitled to an opinion and to vote on Independence for her home country. Which is why people all over the world get proxy and postal votes.

[stuartyboy]

Unless it's the top secret PM pact thing again...


Let MBK speak for herself. I've no knowledge of where she's from and it says Germany as her location.

As for the "secret pact" - I've had it on good authority that you're behind the secret pact trying to spoil things.

[fenjer]

Spoil what? A referendum on independence?

[Milky Bar Kid]

Since when did someone from Germany have a say?

Seriously. How long have I been on the forum? I'll let you into a wee secret...*whisper mode* I'm not really from Germany...

Seriously...I've no idea how long you've been on the forum but I go on what I've seen and read from you - bumping your gums and sniping about this year's GM when you're not actually going - hypocritical:rolleyes:

You might not "be" from Germany but if you're "domiciled" there then you didn't don't have a say and preaching from afar is as hypocritical at its best!

Let MBK speak for herself. I've no knowledge of where she's from and it says Germany as her location.

As for the "secret pact" - I've had it on good authority that you're behind the secret pact trying to spoil things.

Eh? I haven't been bumping my gums about the GM? And if you look, I have provisionally booked accomodation to go but if that's the way the organiser is treating me then I don't think I will bother! I haven't moaned at all!

And I am not from, nor do I live in Germany! Even if I was, it is an internet forum and I would be perfectly entitled to express my opinion.

Stop talking about the GM on this, I have no idea what your problem is but clearly you are getting stressed over nothing. Stop the derail.

[gerbrox]

Getting back on track laddies and gents.

Just on a ramble, but here's my two penny's worth.

I'd vote yes, depending on if there was a opt back in perhaps with some penaties to be paid back into the union, if ti goes pear shaped.

If the UK government are looking for cuts then saving x amount of MP's would be a good start? Then what about all the other countries seeking independance NI, Wales, could it be seen as weakening the UK adn ripe for a takeover.

As most have said, I'd expect that not much would change early on so why not, nothing ventured nothing gained.

In future, if England default's on it's debt would we have to bale them out?

S

[Quedos]

I'm definitely on the fence.
I'm worried about it going pear shaped but I do think we could hold our own. though then comes the debate about joining the EU as a seperate country. I would worried about the small minority of nationallist that want Scots for the Scots.
There's also many questions over forces emergency service etc etc. Which we don't know the answer for
and I'm not sure we would get the clear and transparent info we need to make the informed decision.
I can't see them telling us we would need to pay higher taxes so we can get ourselves stable.
Though if we can kick the 3rd/4th cycle benefits spongers out and provide extra secure mental homes for those with paranoia /bi polar what ever its called today - it may sway me!

My heart says yes but head says no. - I would want all the fact

[Nelson]

A decent watch if you've got 30 minute to spare to watch an entertaining and informative documentary about independance:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Bwy2VcBg4sU

[The Basket]

A decent watch if you've got 30 minute to spare to watch an entertaining and informative documentary about independance:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Bwy2VcBg4sU
You forgot to say one sided.

[Messie]

Why doesn't anyone ask if the English want to be independent of Scotland, or Wales or Northern Ireland, or any of the Commonwealth countries come to think of it?

[The Guru]

Why doesn't anyone ask if the English want to be independent of Scotland, or Wales or Northern Ireland, or any of the Commonwealth countries come to think of it?

Because the English colonised and took over other countries. So what, now that they don't want them they just discard them??

[Bibio]

they could. but they would have to hand over the administrative powers to another one of the remaining country's. they could also get rid of the act of union with agreement of the other country's so everyone in the union would end up independent.

[Nelson]

You forgot to say one sided.

Of course it's one sided...

[-Ralph-]

Because the English colonised and took over other countries

Not in Scotlands case. Though Westminster may have become the centre of rule for both Scotland and England, Scotland was not colonised and taken over.

The origins on Union are quite the opposite in fact, Mary Queen of Scots was the first to advocate a union, James VI of Scotland was the first to put it firmly on the political agenda.

Charles I and Charles II also followed this up, but Oliver Cromwell conquered the lot for a while, and England was in civil war, and Scotland sat in republican union, but when Cromwell died this fell apart and Charles II returned to the throne from exile.

Eventually Scotland ended up flat broke through bad trade (google the Darien scheme) and it was primarily Scotland that sought Union with England to gain financial stability (funny that eh!? RBS/HBOS anyone?).

What was in it for England was that they secured control over the Scottish monarchy long term and prevented Scotland as a separate entity from choosing a different monarchy from the united monarchy that existed, it was a parliament of union to be run from Westminster, and they gained control over their fiercest opponent, who they had learned not to underestimate in the Scottish wars of Independance. Englands strategy was kind of 'keep your friends close, but your enemies closer'.

[TamSV]

Not in Scotlands case. Though Westminster may have become the centre of rule for both Scotland and England, Scotland was not colonised and taken over.

The origins on Union are quite the opposite in fact, Mary Queen of Scots was the first to advocate a union, James VI of Scotland was the first to put it firmly on the political agenda.

Charles I and Charles II also followed this up, but Oliver Cromwell conquered the lot for a while, and England was in civil war, and Scotland sat in republican union, but when Cromwell died this fell apart and Charles II returned to the throne from exile.

Eventually Scotland ended up flat broke through bad trade (google the Darien scheme) and it was primarily Scotland that sought Union with England to gain financial stability (funny that eh!? RBS/HBOS anyone?).

What was in it for England was that they secured control over the Scottish monarchy long term and prevented Scotland as a separate entity from choosing a different monarchy from the united monarchy that existed, it was a parliament of union to be run from Westminster, and they gained control over their fiercest opponent, who they had learned not to underestimate in the Scottish wars of Independance. Englands strategy was kind of 'keep your friends close, but your enemies closer'.

Nice summary there Ralph. I would add (well I would wouldn't I?:)) that the union was pretty violently opposed by most normal Scots. It was the lairds and commissioners in the Scottish Parliament who were looking to recover their Darien losses who pushed it through - and the pro-unionists duly received their bribe.

The Act of Settlement, Scotlands Act of Security and then Englands Alien Act (an embargo on the import of Scottish goods) are worth a google for anyone interested in the lead up to union.

Not that any of this is relevant to the future.

I agree that casting the English as the evil colonists doesn't hold up to scrutiny. Wherever the British Empire went, the Scots and English were side by side, bayonetting the natives.

[stuartyboy]

Why doesn't anyone ask if the English want to be independent of Scotland, or Wales or Northern Ireland, or any of the Commonwealth countries come to think of it?

Can't comment on the Welsh and Irish, but here in London, Scottish Independence it's quite the topic wherever I go. I'm asked about it all the time and I've not had a single English person say they want Scotland to break away. If anything there seems to be genuine concern that Scotland might break away. I've had a bit of fun pretending to be pro union with one group I know and pro independence with another. In both cases though they've said they want us to be in the union. I would pretend to be English but I can't do the feckin accent. That's just my experience but hardly scientific.

[The Guru]

Stuff...
I know that. My post was in response to Messie saying why don't the English have a a say.

Why doesn't anyone ask if the English want to be independent of Scotland, or Wales or Northern Ireland, or any of the Commonwealth countries come to think of it?

England can't (or at least shouldn't be able to) make that decision it should be down to the individual country to decide if they want independence. England took over lots of countries, some forcefully and some by mutual consent. The countries that are still part of the commonwealth or the Union should have the right to decide themselves.

[Blue Flame]

..... I've not had a single English person say they want Scotland to break away.

I agree. I am frequently down south and most of my working colleagues are from down south. I haven't had a single comment from anybody saying that.

There will always be exceptions of course. Kelvin MacKenzie springs to mind but he is just an erse. :D

[SoulKiss]

I agree. I am frequently down south and most of my working colleagues are from down south. I haven't had a single comment from anybody saying that.

Living in London I have never heard anyone commenting.

but he is just an erse. :D

Isn't it wonderful when your normal pronunciation of a word body-swerves the sweary-filter :)

[Blue Flame]

Isn't it wonderful when your normal pronunciation of a word body-swerves the sweary-filter :)

Git it Roon' ye yi baw bag

My my... so it does :)

[The Guru]

Git it Roon' ye yi baw bag

My my... so it does :)

:smt082

[STRAMASHER]

I can see where this thread is going.[-X







Intae the gutter, ya tadgers!:)

[stuartyboy]

Feckin bunch of bawsacks with yer breeks full of clag nuts and yer dome's full of pish so get it up yir hole ya barrel of pishy erse'd fuds.

Oh - so it does

[Quedos]

I would pretend to be English but I can't do the feckin accent. .

That made me lose my tea! Why would you want to pretend to be English?

[Milky Bar Kid]

I know that. My post was in response to Messie saying why don't the English have a a say.



England can't (or at least shouldn't be able to) make that decision it should be down to the individual country to decide if they want independence. England took over lots of countries, some forcefully and some by mutual consent. The countries that are still part of the commonwealth or the Union should have the right to decide themselves.

I think that England would have as much right as us to say that they wanted independence because, as Ralph stated and you know, England did "take over" us, we freely joined the union.

Why shouldn't they be able to say that they want independence then? A lot of those countries that were taken to become the commonwealth were done so by the British Empire, not just England. So if that's you point, then why should we be allowed to ask for independence???

[Messie]

Err ... I wasn't being entirely serious lol!

But I'm loving the swearing bypass!

[TamSV]

Aye, back to the swearing.

I assume "shut it ya plamf" and "yer a pure dobber, man" are both acceptable?

EDIT: yep :D

[Milky Bar Kid]

Bawbag, fud, and erse are my most frequently used adjectives....

[-Ralph-]

http://i227.photobucket.com/albums/dd82/colinbal4/425560_3095470434865_1507215333_2938856_171656546_ n.jpg

[carelesschucca]

Feckin bunch of bawsacks with yer breeks full of clag nuts and yer dome's full of pish so get it up yir hole ya barrel of pishy erse'd fuds.

Oh - so it does

Ach its gid tae hiv yea back ya baw bag!!! ;)

[-Ralph-]

Ach its gid tae hiv yea back ya baw bag!!! ;)

Check the date ;)

[Tiger 55]

Check the date ;)
Check this thread :-)
http://forums.sv650.org/showthread.php?t=174694

[Blue Flame]

Check mate

[-Ralph-]

Bolox

[punyXpress]

http://i227.photobucket.com/albums/dd82/colinbal4/425560_3095470434865_1507215333_2938856_171656546_ n.jpg

A Keith D option would have been polite? ;)