View Full Version : bad drivers.... beware
SuzukiNess
11-05-11, 06:59 AM
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-13356057
may make people think twice bout their driving?
i personally think the idea is brilliant.. but then again when the idiot does the u-turn in front of you, pulls out on you etc etc... never seem to be any coppers about.
what you guys think?
It's a good idea in theory but surely it's everyone's right to be given a fair trial in a court if they have been accused of an offence. Or did I just dream that?
timwilky
11-05-11, 07:24 AM
Your word against a copper.
In theory a good idea as most cops seems to think poor driving is not worth the effort. I guess it then comes down to the attitude test. fortunately I have never failed that one. But I know plenty who have who would be even more anti cop for getting a fine for a bit of stupid driving instead of "advice".
Yesterday i overtook a tractor on my bike on double white lines. There was nothing dangerous about it in the slightest road was clear and I was on the wrong side of the road for less than 2 seconds.
Under the new law if a copper saw me doing that and had was having a bad day (maybe the donut shop was out of his favourites) then he could have given me a fine even though what I did was perfectly safe although technically illegal.
As Tim says it's just going to be down to the attitude test and the mood of the copper which is not fair.
I'd like to know who they're planning on implementing that when they are cutting the budgets for policing. And the same applies, it's only going to work if there's a copper there at that moment.
SoulKiss
11-05-11, 07:46 AM
Yesterday i overtook a tractor on my bike on double white lines. There was nothing dangerous about it in the slightest road was clear and I was on the wrong side of the road for less than 2 seconds.
Under the new law if a copper saw me doing that and had was having a bad day (maybe the donut shop was out of his favourites) then he could have given me a fine even though what I did was perfectly safe although technically illegal.
As Tim says it's just going to be down to the attitude test and the mood of the copper which is not fair.
Under the old laws you could have ended up in court for that and got points.
And it wasn't "technically illegal" it WASS illegal.
I am totally against this change as its not up to coppers to decide punishments beyond fixed penalties, and even then I am not 100% behind that, it then comes down to one person's word against another.
Megacity One here we come.
metalangel
11-05-11, 07:54 AM
I expect you'll see these things being handed out willy-nilly.
SoulKiss
11-05-11, 07:55 AM
I expect you'll see these things being handed out willy-nilly.
And the courts getting gummed up with people saying "Actually officer, I wont accept your summary justice, I'll have my day in court please"
Have you read the comments!! that is a good cross section in itself and a few that need educated in the first right- 20 in a 30 zone is ant-social - bet he doesn't have kids and its a maximum speed not mandatory speed.
as the number that don't know the legalities round varying speeds on multi lane roads
Though saying that remind me to stay out of Central Police Area when it comes in as they are right Bar stewards! THey are known for their 'charm' ahem!
However yu do need police to enforce it and that a scare commodity these days
punyXpress
11-05-11, 08:00 AM
No mention of those who hog outer lanes on motorways, then?
SoulKiss
11-05-11, 08:03 AM
Have you read the comments!! that is a good cross section in itself and a few that need educated in the first right- 20 in a 30 zone is ant-social - bet he doesn't have kids and its a maximum speed not mandatory speed.
as the number that don't know the legalities round varying speeds on multi lane roads
Though saying that remind me to stay out of Central Police Area when it comes in as they are right Bar stewards! THey are known for their 'charm' ahem!
However yu do need police to enforce it and that a scare commodity these days
If I get you right and the comment was that someone doing 20 in a 30 zone is wrong, well actually it probably is and the person doing 20 would get done for impeding the flow of traffic, and I am not 100% sure I would disagree.
If there is an argument that it is unsafe to do 30 then there are mechanisms for having the speed limit reduced.
Yes, I agree (and I used the word above) that its a limit, but its also expected for you to make good progress and use the limit as a guide to which speed to do, you CAN fail your driving test for driving too slow.
No mention of those who hog outer lanes on motorways, then?
nah just the those who have in anti-social side that do 65 in the middle lane and god for bid if your old - you should be banned.
HGV's are only allowed in the inside lane.
wonder how many complain about the hoggers actually tailgate and are the impaitent ones
grimey121uk
11-05-11, 08:05 AM
No mention of those who hog outer lanes on motorways, then?
or those who choose to join motorways at 45mph, who think if they stamp on the gas the engine will blow up
If I get you right and the comment was that someone doing 20 in a 30 zone is wrong, well actually it probably is and the person doing 20 would get done for impeding the flow of traffic, and I am not 100% sure I would disagree.
If there is an argument that it is unsafe to do 30 then there are mechanisms for having the speed limit reduced.
Yes, I agree (and I used the word above) that its a limit, but its also expected for you to make good progress and use the limit as a guide to which speed to do, you CAN fail your driving test for driving too slow.
Yes you can get done for going to slow but 30 is the lowest legal limit you can reduce to 20's are only advisory ( so i'm led to believe someone will keep me correct)
20 in a built up area is adequate 9/10 times - remembering that most people don't look any further than their own bonnet let alone further up the road. 20 does not necessarily impeed traffic - when it does it needs to been done something about but it highlights the case that this is not clear cut.
I'll agree there are some 30's that are stupid and should be higher but that because of the design of the road and number of entry/exits and junctions with other roads.
Most people react better at 20mph with more positive outcomes - (sorry road safety head on today)
I can't understand this great need to be everywhere instantly and I know I'm guilty of telling people to get up to speed but have a bit a patience round them
also just remembered that down south there is a great more usage of speed limits - yorkshire terrible 30-40-50-30-50-30. No wonder people get frustrated.
nah just the those who have in anti-social side that do 65 in the middle lane and god for bid if your old - you should be banned.
HGV's are only allowed in the inside lane.
wonder how many complain about the hoggers actually tailgate and are the impaitent ones
HGV's can use lanes one and two of a motorway and a dual carriageway I think, otherwise how would they be allowed to pass anything?
I dont tailgate people, but there's nothing more annoying than coming up the outside lane of the motorway at 70 to come across some muppet sitting at 50 or 60. Happened to me loads when I was going back and forth to Lincoln.
I still dont know how they are going to police it, and the automatic £80 fine and 3 points is ridiculous for safe but technically illegal things like over taking a tractor on double whites.
HGV's can use lanes one and two of a motorway and a dual carriageway I think, otherwise how would they be allowed to pass anything?.
this is what the comments are saying should happen!
I dont tailgate people, but there's nothing more annoying than coming up the outside lane of the motorway at 70 to come across some muppet sitting at 50 or 60. Happened to me loads when I was going back and forth to Lincoln..
Agree with you on that had it last night except i was the poor sod the lane hogger pulled into.
I still dont know how they are going to police it, and the automatic £80 fine and 3 points is ridiculous for safe but technically illegal things like over taking a tractor on double whites.
they way they look at tha,t i'm told by the ex traffic cop in here, is that its illegal end of. The double white are there to tell you it ain't safe to over take unless it the exceptions and a tractor ain't an exception. The laws there, you break it, you take the consequence.
timwilky
11-05-11, 08:21 AM
Please remember that in NSL, HGVs are limited to 40 in single carriage ways and 50 in dual, so the muppets doing 50 may actually be obeying the law.
SoulKiss
11-05-11, 08:23 AM
HGV's can use lanes one and two of a motorway and a dual carriageway I think, otherwise how would they be allowed to pass anything?
I dont tailgate people, but there's nothing more annoying than coming up the outside lane of the motorway at 70 to come across some muppet sitting at 50 or 60. Happened to me loads when I was going back and forth to Lincoln.
I still dont know how they are going to police it, and the automatic £80 fine and 3 points is ridiculous for safe but technically illegal things like over taking a tractor on double whites.
On the topic of Double Whites (and following my earlier post) it IS legal to cross them if there is slow-moving traffic and it is safe to do so.
You are actually allowed to cross the white lines to overtake bicycles and other vehicles if they are travelling at less than 10mph. Rule 129 of the highway code. Obviously the caveat of "if it is safe to do so" applies here as it does to every rule of the road.
EDIT: Scratch that - the Highway Code rule 129 is as such
129
Double white lines where the line nearest you is solid. This means you MUST NOT cross or straddle it unless it is safe and you need to enter adjoining premises or a side road. You may cross the line if necessary, provided the road is clear, to pass a stationary vehicle, or overtake a pedal cycle, horse or road maintenance vehicle, if they are travelling at 10 mph (16 km/h) or less.
punyXpress
11-05-11, 08:24 AM
THAT " your old - you should be banned. " is a bit below the belt, Q! ;)
See you around @ GM ?
Either way the police have to enforce it. Under the current system bad driving is seen the driver is then reported for the offence and then given his/her day in court.
Under the new system bad driving is seen the driver is given a FPN which they can request a court hearing. Or if they refuse the FPN they will be reported and given their day in court.
Getting a ticket for 3 points and a cash fine could be a good result bearing in mind that courts and award you up to 9 points for driving with out due care.
Please remember that in NSL, HGVs are limited to 40 in single carriage ways and 50 in dual, so the muppets doing 50 may actually be obeying the law.
But the HGV shouldnt be in the 3rd lane of the motorway...
this is what the comments are saying should happen!
I hadnt read the comments, had to get small to school.
HGV's can use lanes one and two of a motorway and a dual carriageway I think, otherwise how would they be allowed to pass anything?
I dont tailgate people, but there's nothing more annoying than coming up the outside lane of the motorway at 70 to come across some muppet sitting at 50 or 60. Happened to me loads when I was going back and forth to Lincoln.
I still dont know how they are going to police it, and the automatic £80 fine and 3 points is ridiculous for safe but technically illegal things like over taking a tractor on double whites.
Lorries are only allowed to use lanes 1 and 2 of motorways and both on dual carriageways. You can cross double white lines to overtake parked vehicles and certain others doing less than 11mph. Otherwise technically illegal doesn't come into it, it is illegal to cross double white lines, patience is a virtue and double lines don't last forever so why the need to try to save a few minutes, and a bike can soon make up for any time lost.
Daryl
THAT " your old - you should be banned. " is a bit below the belt, Q! ;)
See you around @ GM ?
these are not MY comments!!! they are off the BBC Website!!
SK - I did say there were exceptions when you could over take in double whites.
However again thats what i'm being told for our ex traffic cop - if it was tractor which assuming he will be going faster than 10mph it was an illegal manoevour.
It ridiculous I know I encounter cyclists every day doing 30 in a NSL on double white and we legally can't cross them - we don't cos we know if we get spotted we will be charged - it a local thing
FEn if you get a chance some of the comments are eye opening!! no wonder there are so many smidsy! - though I do have my road safety head on today so I'm probably slihgtly over zealous - hugs to small from me!!
timwilky
11-05-11, 08:32 AM
Sorry but round here we do still have some two lane stretches of motorway where the "outside lane" is legal for HGVs.
Pity the TV ads of my younger years have disappeared that reminded drivers the outside lanes were for overtaking only. Encouraging on the M6 a couple of weeks ago the overhead signs were giving a reminder.
And missing Tufty to teach kids how to cross the road safely without expecting traffic to hit the anchors hard because of their god given right to walk into the road without stopping, looking etc.
It Pees me off badly that a local road has been reduced from NSL to 30 because a kid rode out round a barrier in front of a car and was killed. The parents demanded the speed was reduced. They refuse to share the blame for not educating their kid that he had a responsibility to ride his bicycle in a safe and responsible manner if he is to use a public road. No the innocent driver and the irresponsible speed limit were to blame.
SoulKiss
11-05-11, 08:35 AM
SK - I did say there were exceptions when you could over take in double whites.
Never said you didn't - what I was referring to my "blanket" statement from before that where I implied that it was ALWAYS illegal, rather than there being a few little exceptions :p
SoulKiss
11-05-11, 08:37 AM
Sorry but round here we do still have some two lane stretches of motorway where the "outside lane" is legal for HGVs.
Pity the TV ads f my younger years have disappeared that reminded drivers the outside lanes were for overtaking only. Encouraging on the M6 a couple of weeks ago the overhead signs were giving a reminder.
They ALWAYS have that reminder, but without cops to pull people over and have a chat, they are not worth the electricity the light them up.
This is based on my observation of what the traffic ACTUALLY did when I was last on a Motorway with such signage.
Ah overhead signs - those things my OH never looks at - this is an Advanced rider and he never reads road signs and never looks at overhead gantrys - it does my box in!!
How many people read these things i wonder!!
I was explaining the other day to a driver of 20 years how the gantries on motorways let you know if the exit is a slip road off or a dedicated lane leaving the motorway. He never knew about it!
benji106
11-05-11, 08:46 AM
bit of a moot point really isnt it, you would need police there to enforce it. I very rarely see any police cars on my travels, bit too much to hope for that there would happen to be a police car there when some bint pulls out 10 feet in front of you and proceeds to trundle up the NSL road at 35 mph.
Anyway, I dont like the idea of the police being a one stop prosecution shop.
Seandesy1
11-05-11, 08:47 AM
I doubt this will change much in all honesty, driving without due care/ or careless driving is a much less clear cut offence than say no MoT/no insurance or using a mobile phone whilst driving. With the cutbacks in roads policing resources much of this is probably a move to push other frontline officers such as response sections to take up RPU duties.
I don't think anyone has realised yet that there's alreadya tremendous workload on them that's already getting worse, and as with any government body, officers will only do what they're audited on.
and yet:
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/motoring/news/8505741/Motorway-limit-could-be-raised-to-80mph.html
SoulKiss
11-05-11, 09:10 AM
and yet:
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/motoring/news/8505741/Motorway-limit-could-be-raised-to-80mph.html
Don't get it, whats the connection?
Well, erm... I suppose theres a tenuous link between bad driving and speed - we had the discussion briefly about speed earlier in this thread.
It's a bit like government ministers give with one hand (80mph on motorways) and take away with the other (on the spot fines).
Maybe I'm just seeing invisible links... lol It has been known. :p
SoulKiss
11-05-11, 09:25 AM
Well, erm... I suppose theres a tenuous link between bad driving and speed - we had the discussion briefly about speed earlier in this thread.
It's a bit like government ministers give with one hand (80mph on motorways) and take away with the other (on the spot fines).
Maybe I'm just seeing invisible links... lol It has been known. :p
I think you are :)
Everyday thousands of motorists travel at 80mph - or even much in excess of this, but due to the design/quality of modern vehicles this is perfectly safe (while illegal)
It could be argued that as almost 100% of those motorists will be of voting age, this could be seen as those thousands saying that the Government are actually wrong to set the policy that the speed limit is only 70mph, remember motorways didn't originally have speed limits, the belief being that the performance of the vehicles of the time would be the limiting factor.
Speed is NOT a problem, inappropriate speed is.
The thread is about the additional powers granted to the police, rather than an actual change to Traffic Law, although in my opinion it should be more about the corrupting of the UK Legal System to allow Police Officers to be Judge, Jury and Executioner.
Or maybe we just get the Police uniform redesigned to be something more like this.
http://cdn.comicartfans.com/Images/Category_42690/subcat_87731/CIMG4583.JPG
Pic by Gary Erskine (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gary_Erskine) (used one of his cos he's my Brother-in-law's Cousin :p)
lol....
well there will be some - like some of the commentors on the original link who will dislike that proposal.
The thread is about the additional powers granted to the police, rather than an actual change to Traffic Law, although in my opinion it should be more about the corrupting of the UK Legal System to allow Police Officers to be Judge, Jury and Executioner.
Either way a person can choose to go to court. In that respect nothing has or is going to change.
Geodude
11-05-11, 10:04 AM
I'd like to know who they're planning on implementing that when they are cutting the budgets for policing. And the same applies, it's only going to work if there's a copper there at that moment.
itmNiTwHOsM
Who else but Dredd ;)
Anyway laughs aside who else can you blame if you drive/ride like an idiot.
punyXpress
11-05-11, 10:31 AM
Nice to see BluePete in his working gear ( post #33 ), but I digress.
Will these proposals relate solely to Police, or will the Highways Wombles be given more ' authority ' ?
yorkie_chris
11-05-11, 11:42 AM
Either way a person can choose to go to court. In that respect nothing has or is going to change.
Well except that they get a massive extra punishment for daring to question the unfailing judgement of the police.
Personally I think it's a load of b*llocks and the police won't bother doing anything about the middle lane idiots holding the job up, instead they'll target people like us who perfectly safely go up the inside of aforementioned idiot.
454697819
11-05-11, 11:46 AM
Well except that they get a massive extra punishment for daring to question the unfailing judgement of the police.
correct, they will become judge judy and executioner, as this is such a subjective offence.
SoulKiss
11-05-11, 01:32 PM
Either way a person can choose to go to court. In that respect nothing has or is going to change.
With the implication that if they take the 3 points at the roadside its done with, but if it goes to court then the penalty could be worse?
Some people won't risk that, meaning that some people who would be fine if they went to court, will be unfairly penalised.
Mind you if this means more offences are reported and then EVERYONE asks for their day in court, courts will become like prisons - ie too full/busy, so a lot of people will be let off :p
Balky001
11-05-11, 02:46 PM
Personally I think it's a load of b*llocks and the police won't bother doing anything about the middle lane idiots holding the job up, instead they'll target people like us who perfectly safely go up the inside of aforementioned idiot.
Agree, many causes of frustation leading to tailgaiting and undertaking is due to poor lane discipline and/or poor observation. The lessons would be better given to those that need to learn what lane to me in on motorways and at roundabouts and how to drive defensively. I wonder how vigourously this will be enforced as the police still seem to be getting to grips with prosecuting mobile phone users.
SoulKiss
11-05-11, 02:53 PM
Agree, many causes of frustation leading to tailgaiting and undertaking is due to poor lane discipline and/or poor observation. The lessons would be better given to those that need to learn what lane to me in on motorways and at roundabouts and how to drive defensively. I wonder how vigourously this will be enforced as the police still seem to be getting to grips with prosecuting mobile phone users.
I was told, face-to-face that the police have no powers that they can apply to cyclists running red-lights by an Officer of the Metropolitan Police that I approached in the street to enquire what the current strategy on enforcing the RTA in respect to cyclists.
So when they don't even know the law, how can they enforce it?
Balky001
11-05-11, 03:13 PM
you'd hope they'd know the basics at least. I sometimes see cyclist get pulled in the City but only when it's a special push on red light jumpers. The same police usually turn a blind eye.
I'm not against improving road safety or on the spot fines for excessive speeding but this is more subjective and the police pulling you may not want to understand the circumstances. I know you can go to court but you are risking a heavier punishment.
maybe a better punishment would be any aggressive car driving is punished by two weeks commuting on a 50cc moped, let's see how aggressive they are then!
Bluefish
11-05-11, 04:44 PM
Ah overhead signs - those things my OH never looks at - this is an Advanced rider and he never reads road signs and never looks at overhead gantrys - it does my box in!!
How many people read these things i wonder!!
I was explaining the other day to a driver of 20 years how the gantries on motorways let you know if the exit is a slip road off or a dedicated lane leaving the motorway. He never knew about it!
Well seeing as most of the time they are on, it's only to tell you to slow down to 50 usually, as there was an accident there last week and we haven't bothered to change the signs yet, i would guess not many take any notice of them.
If it becomes "easier" for drivers to be stopped/accused/convicted/sentenced all at the side of the road, then more and more will be done (because it's easy), thus it will appear that driving offences are on the increase therefore more needs to be done so the laws and powers will become even more draconian. An evil spiral resulting from idiots with statistics. Just you wait and see........
metalangel
13-05-11, 02:22 PM
Agree, many causes of frustation leading to tailgaiting and undertaking is due to poor lane discipline and/or poor observation. The lessons would be better given to those that need to learn what lane to me in on motorways and at roundabouts and how to drive defensively. I wonder how vigourously this will be enforced as the police still seem to be getting to grips with prosecuting mobile phone users.
Well, yes. You overtake someone slow in lane 2, move back over to lane 1. The person who was behind you in lane 2 and up until that point had been fine to follow you (they'd have overtaken you, right?) suddenly decides NO they now want to go 2mph faster... so you're now stuck behind the next slow car in lane 1 as this clot slowly glides through your blind spot, and the clot behind him, and the clot behind him, and you swear and curse and decide you should have just stayed in lane 2 after all...
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