"Hollowing out"

[Bri w]

The choice of Coronation St or a good book/magazine. I chose a decent book/mag every time. The current article I've been reading is about how middle Britain is being "hollowed out."

Basically, its about how changes in the economic climate have meant that succesive govts, and chancellors, have attacked the 'wealth' of middle Britain in the last 7 years. Using specific trends, e.g. car use and ownership, the article highlights a significant drop in the standard of living since 2004. The change in car use and ownership has also had a knock on effect in who lives where and has found to be damaging to the housing market.

Whether its via green taxes, council taxes or whatever, many of the changes have been drip fed into the system and it is only recently that many have really started to feel the squeeze. Equally, many have actually started to question the validity of some of the spending by govts on things that bring little benefit to society, and in some cases actually harms that society.

Although taxation has meant some areas of govt have had their spending largely protected, this increased demand on middle Britain has actually meant the spending by the population has diminished and this has caused more harm to a greater spread of industries and services.

The article questions whether the current level of taxation is the answer to society's woes? Does it hinder growth? Is it the cause of the double dip recession? Has it led to a significant drop in the standard of living of the majority of people who actually contribute the most (financially) to society?

Do you think you are worse off than 7 years ago?

[Lozzo]

Do you think you are worse off than 7 years ago?

Most definitely, but I was worse off before this current government came into power so I can't blame it on them. I lay the blame squarely at the door of the previous government who sent this country on a downward spiral that no-one will be able to stop and turn around in short order and without making drastic changes.

No-one likes the spending cuts, but if you need to blame anyone, there's a certain Mr Blair and his bum-chum, that one-eyed jock waste of space, Brown who are number one on my list

[Berlin]

Do you think you are worse off than 7 years ago?

Without doubt. and I too lay the blame squarely with the two terrorists mentioned above.

Good post!

C

[Winder]

I'm definately worse of now than 7 years ago but that is because I moved from Northern Ireland to Surrey! But the state the country is in is due to the previous lot in number 10.
I struggle every month to pay the bills but I do go out and work, I have almost imploded with rage a number of times when my nieghbour complains about not getting enough benifits. I wonder how many cans of Carlsberg I have indirectly bought her over the years.

[timwilky]

I too am significantly worse off. My ability to save has diminished to the point where I am now living off my income and having to also support grown up kids who cannot live off theirs.

I despair at todays society where some seem to be given money by the state yet others who have spent their lives fending for themselves and now desperate for help have no entitlement. Why pay a mortgage and buy a house when you could either P it away or put the money under the bed and the state will subsequently house and care for you in your retirement and dotage.

[andrewsmith]

Yep!

I can be on more on benefits* (if i got a O/H pregnant) than I can earn working 40 hours a week, and working a second job.
You can blame the previous govt, for the mess were in, but you can't blame them for the cuts. As the cuts (sorry deficit reduction) is this lot using the lowest govt debt (in the Western world) as a smokescreen for their normal routine.
Putting the debt into context, we can sell all the bank shares clear what thats cost plus most of the govt debt.

*I wouldn't go back on benefits as it was the worst 3 months of my life last year

[dizzyblonde]

For the current moment in time, I don't think I am any better or worse off than seven years ago. I was a single parent then, with my own home, and working enough to get by.
Whilst in the first year of Peg being here, we were reasonably bouyant, we were hit very hard when Oli was around 6 months due to my wages being reduced to nil for the latter part of my maternity. One wage that wasn't particularly spectacular to live on was horrendous. We didn't qualify for any benefits such as council tax reduction, but we got a relief with a bit of tax credits.
Having got new employment and getting wages to the tune of triple of what he earnt in those months we have got to a turning point and are square again.
Not sure how long that will go on for, but its got us back on track. However if it fell, we wouldn't get an increase in tax credits due to having got an upsurge in wage taking us well over the qualfiying threshold in the early part of the year.
The worry we have is needing to upscale in the house department, as we're overcrowded here, going up could squeeze us to the limit, as we're not necessarily looking at this area to stay in. Moving abroad has come into play again(it usually does for us both) It may be expensive where we'd like to head, but the standard of living you get is a much more preferable life to us, than the rat race here.

[Viney]

I am thats for sure. Im not aligned to any party and vote for whom i see fit at the time. That said, i dont think that the last labour government has really helped the situation, and sadly the ConDems are having to mop up the debris so everyone looks like bad guys.

This all said, am i worse off. Yes. Based on my income/outgoing ratio on all the things that i do in my owrk/personal life, i am financially worse off now than i was 7 years ago. Some of these things though are also down to the world economy, not just our own home groan (sic) economy. One thing for example are tyres. They have increased considerably over the last 7 years thans for sure.

The basics like food, fuel, travel etc, combined with 5 year pay freezes dont help matters. The job market slump doesnt assist with the seeking of something more gainful.

My main grip is home ownership. I am now 40, and i dont ever see myself being a home owner. These shared ownership schemes are all smoke and mirrors and frankly a waste of time as you essentialy pay the same as if you bought the place outright, but you can not get a mortgage for that value and you need 10-15% minimum deposit something, as Tim says, you dont have the money now to save for.

Still, i get up, go to work, do what i have to and moan...its the british way i tell thee.

[daveyrach]

I disagree with you, I am 24 married and live in rented accommodation with my wife and 4 children, I work 37.5 hours a week and get a decent salary (>20k). But i am still entitled to housing & council tax benefit, also we get child tax credits but no working tax credits.

Anyway I was paying more myself under the old Labour govt and since the coalition came into power my Housing & Council tax benefit have increased as has our child tax credits.

I myself hate having to rely on govt/local council for help as people seem to tar everyone ion benefits with the same brush (which is quite unfair in some cases) and would much rather buy my own home hence the reason i work and save etc. I could afford to live in my house without these benefits each month but would not be able to feed myself or my children, I could even afford a mortgage but the banks will simply not lend enough for me to buy a house despite me having a sizeable deposit. The help is there so I use it.

[Bri w]

I've not really quantified what we don't do or how much worse off we are now than 7 years back. I do know there isn't much going into the savings account, we've not had the holidays and weekends away we were having, we're not eating out anything like as much and there's a whole raft of things with the family that don't happen anymore. I guess that's the insidious aspect of it creeping up on us without realising. Its only when it actually impacts on the day to day living that it really starts to hurt.

I'd rather not turn it into a political rant, or have a 'go' at the benefit culture but there are two things that were in the news lately that really got my blood boiling.
1) A Somalian family were moved from a Council house to a 4 bed detached house in Hampstead because they needed to be near other Somalians that spoke the language. And the rent paid by the local council is £2,000 per week.
2) 80% of Somalians that have entered the UK are not working. And if you'd lived in a mud hut and move to another country where they'd give you the equivalent of a palace and feed and clothe you would you just ask for a "fishing rod to be able to feed your family for life."

It winds me up severely that someone can get a house like that under those circumstances when there's no way on earth I could ever get anywhere near affording the same unless I had a lottery win. Its a lifestyle choice for economic migrants... they think they've died and gone to heaven.

[timwilky]

I think that my situation reflects quite a bad future for the economy.

I do earn a reasonable salary and own my house outright. We used to eat out at least a couple of times a week and certainly had at least 3 nights a week out. I am lucky to eat out once a month these days and certainly not in the restaurants I used to use. No way will I today spend £50+ on a bottle of red no matter how nice it is. The couple of nights a week out are now at best 1 a week.

This must be reflected in the local economy as a real turndown if people such as myself no longer have the disposable income. My salary has changed little over the past 5 years. However my bill have shot up.

The worse of all this is that my reduced disposable income means I must now spend time with the wife.

[Owenski]

7 years ago I was 19 renting a house which had 3 other rooms to sub-let. The total let on these rooms far exceeded my monthly income at the time and covered all the rent and bills for the property leaving me to have my wage for me... Naturally I bought a big expensive car and pi55ed it all away.

7 Years later, Im living payslip to payslip have a mortgage and no car, a wife and a loverly baby boy. In that sense Im better off than I've ever been but I've not got a penny to my name. tbh it scares me that Mini Owenski is going to be going without certain things unless there is a sudden change... like a lotto win.

[Owenski]

To echo Tim above, my salary hasnt risen since 2008 at which time I was doing well for my age even though I still never had "fun money" but the cost of living increase has firstly cost me my car, then my SV and its not getting too unrealistic to predict me riding into work on a pushiron in the near future.

[Viney]

If people are getting a top up from the state to enable them to live and work, then i dodnt see any shame in that and nor should you. Needs must. It is the Benefit generation who do not work and think the world owes them a favour that get on my tits. There is no denying though that in some cases youa re better off not working and claiming no matter what way you cut it.

[daveyrach]

If people are getting a top up from the state to enable them to live and work, then i dodnt see any shame in that and nor should you. Needs must. It is the Benefit generation who do not work and think the world owes them a favour that get on my tits. There is no denying though that in some cases youa re better off not working and claiming no matter what way you cut it.

I agree, I can't stand people who expect something for nothing and have no interest in working, we have actually worked it out we would be better off entirely on benefits but we want to set an example for our children and want to eventually be self sufficient and not rely on benefits.

[sv4me]

In 1 of the many dull seminars I attended whilst training in accountancy, 1 tutor raised the subject of progressive direct taxation and whether it was fair or not. We discussed other means such as indirect through VAT and fuel tax. General consensus was that we have too much of both at the minute. Examine any burgeoning economy around the world (Hong Kong for one) and you'll see a fair, relatively low tax system that helps promote growth. You could argue this is simplistic as Germany has a similar tax system to our own. But they have 1 major advantage, they actaully make stuff :smt003

Spoken by many a smarter man than me, until we start making things in this country again we are going nowhere as a nation. Aside from that, its not enough to close down all heavy industry and manufacturing in this country. We then go and outsource huge chunks of our 'services' industry to countries on the other side of the world *sarcastic* =D>

And as has been said, tighten up the benefits system so people have a clear benefit to doing an honest days work, rather than sitting on their arses all their lives. And stop rolling out the welcome mat to every benefit claimant whose travelled through 7 different european nations to get to Britain, 'to escape persecution' :rolleyes: it won't happen overnight but we might have a chance if it happens at all

[Jabba]

Most definitely, but I was worse off before this current government came into power so I can't blame it on them. I lay the blame squarely at the door of the previous government who sent this country on a downward spiral that no-one will be able to stop and turn around in short order and without making drastic changes.

No-one likes the spending cuts, but if you need to blame anyone, there's a certain Mr Blair and his bum-chum, that one-eyed jock waste of space, Brown who are number one on my list

+1

Over more than a decade they squeezed that part of the population least likely to vote for them. This, together with the "laissez faire" lax attitude to banking regulation, is the reason why hell will freeze over before I vote for them again.

[suzukigt380paul]

dont worry who ever you blame for being better off or worse off,and the banks are to blame for a lot of the troubles,just hope the good old usa dont go tits up with there govenment borrowing which is £120.000 per usa household cos when the good old bank of usa does go to the wall all of the western world will become a third world country over night

[Bibio]

i would say that expenses have gone up 40p per pound since 7 years ago. leccy was 6p a unit now its 12p+, petrol was 80p a ltr now £1.32, loaf of bread was 40-50p now its £1-1.20. even in the past 4 years its got worse. its getting to a point where i can't make ends meet. ok no having a bash at unemployed and such but what are we supposed to do when the gov keep putting up the price of basics. has my money gone up 20p per pound in the last 4 years to cover the spiralling price rises. no it has not so how am i supposed to live given that i was scraping by 4 years ago. i cant afford to go out and buy the latest and greatest fuel efficient car, insurance is a feckin joke, so where does that leave poor people? up the shiz creak without a paddle that's where.

ok so i have just caved in and got a mobility car, but that car is going to be taking £50 a week from my account. so in the 3 years i will have the car i will have given them £7800. this is all because i can't get credit as i am classed as unemployed so lenders in this economic climate will not even look at me for a decent rate of interest.

because i have no savings now as the cost of living has gone skyward i can't go out and do what i used to and buy a car at a cppl grand and have it for a few years.

the only saving grace i have is that i don't have credit cards or loans. if i had i would probably put a rope around my neck and hang myself.

i really don't know how people are able to manage these days.

and yes i blame the last gov as they were a bunch of useless money wasting asswipes.

[Luckypants]

I do earn a reasonable salary <snip>

This must be reflected in the local economy as a real turndown if people such as myself no longer have the disposable income. My salary has changed little over the past 5 years. However my bill have shot up.

Exactly the situation for me and many others I speak in my line of work. We are being squeezed from above by pay restraint to generate profits in a time of low growth and from below by the government taking more and more of our cash, both directly and indirectly.

To ease the pressure from below, taxes - especially indirect taxes - need to fall which might then help growth to ease the pressure from above. Cannot see it happening in my lifetime though :(

[Sid Squid]

The problem isn't the welfare state as such, (although the amount of public money that goes to benefit of all varieties is truly scary), the problem is the vast and voracious mechanism of state.

If the state weren't taking so much of the money you earn our economic problems would be much reduced. Very simply the state is too big, and requires too much public money to run it. We need big cuts, proper cuts, not the faint scratches we've seen thus far, the state now controls far too much, lots of which has no business being a public responsibility, and government after government has demonstrated very fully that state control is a byword for waste and inefficiency - the bottomless pit of your money will always fill in the gaps, and if not well then there's always higher taxation.

That's the true problem.

[punyXpress]

With you on this one, Bri
So here's a story:
The Bird Feeder

I bought a bird feeder.. I hung it on my patio and filled it lovingly with seed... It was indeed a beautiful bird feeder.
Within a week we had hundreds of birds taking advantage of the Continuous flow of free and easily accessible food.
But then the birds started building nests in the boards of the patio, above the table, and next to the barbecue..
Then came the bird sh * t. It was everywhere; on the patio tiles, the chairs, the table ... everywhere! Then some the birds turned mean.
They would dive bomb me and try to peck me even though I had fed them out of my own pocket.
And other birds were boisterous and loud. They sat on the feeder and squawked and screamed at all hours of the day and night and demanded that I fill it when it got low on food.
After a while, I couldn't even sit on my own back porch anymore.
So I took down the bird feeder and in three days the birds were gone. I cleaned up their mess and took down the many nests they had built all over the patio.
Soon, the back yard was like it used to be ... quiet, serene and no one demanding their rights to a free meal...
Now let's see ....... our government give out free food, subsidised housing, free medical care, and free education and allows anyone born here to be an automatic citizen.
Then the illegals came by the millions. Suddenly our taxes went up to pay for the free services; small flats are housing 5 or more families; you have to wait 6 hours to be seen by a doctor in an emergency surgery because it is filled with illegal non tax payers; your child's year 12 class is behind other schools because over half the class doesn't speak English.
Corn Flakes now come in a bilingual box; I have to 'press one' to hear my bank talk to me in English, and people waving flags other than 'The Union Jack' are squawking and screaming in the streets, demanding more rights and free liberties.
Its just my opinion but:

maybe, just maybe, it's time for the government to take down the damn bird feeder.

If you agree, pass it on; if not, continue cleaning up the sh*t! :mad:

[dizzyblonde]

Seen that on viral email several times Puny, but in essence there is truth in it. Make you wonder why so many of us jump ship and burger off abroad. However, in a quest for a more peaceful life, which has a slower pace, escape from the rat race, more fulfilling for many reasons other than money.........are we just the same as all those who come here, we just burden some other country where we can't fit in, as we don't speak the lingo, don't know the culture etc etc.

[Bibio]

slight de-rail. i had to phone the HM revenue & customs and had to give a few details to authenticate myself. it turns out that our gov is using a credit reference agency to check that my details are what i say they are.

WTF has a credit reference agency got to do with my identity?

what makes it more spooky is that a CRA knows more about me than the government or why else would they use them.

[dizzyblonde]

Its not surprising.
For an example of why.....

Our governments departments are so rubbish with their clients details, they need a secondary back up system to cover all their mistakes.
A neighbour recently had a baby, and obviously went to claim her child benefit. After a few weeks of not hearing from them she gave them a call. I can't remember the whole story off the top of my head, but she was told she couldn't speak to anyone, as the details she gave were incorrect. Basically somebody had entered into a computer the incorrect NI number for her. Her partner could speak to them, as he could give correct details. Someone somewhere, with whatever NI number was getting her money!
Took her a very long time to sort it out, all because of one digit mistake. They weren't interested that she could give them every other detail about herself and her family.

[Quedos]

i was better off 7 years ago but my job paid more, I didn't have my bikes, I was still at home waiting for the sale to be concluded on the flat
However since then things have manage dto get a lot tighter and now I'm having to take a second job to make ends meet

[keith_d]

It's fairly clear why the government is bleeding the middle classes.

* The poor don't have any assets
* The rich can afford accountants to minimise their liabilities
* The super-rich can move to a favourable tax regime

Who's left to pay taxes? The people in the middle.

Add in ten years of spend-spend-spend government and you get the state we're in today.

[Biker Biggles]

The choice of Coronation St or a good book/magazine. I chose a decent book/mag every time. The current article I've been reading is about how middle Britain is being "hollowed out."

Basically, its about how changes in the economic climate have meant that succesive govts, and chancellors, have attacked the 'wealth' of middle Britain in the last 7 years. Using specific trends, e.g. car use and ownership, the article highlights a significant drop in the standard of living since 2004. The change in car use and ownership has also had a knock on effect in who lives where and has found to be damaging to the housing market.

Whether its via green taxes, council taxes or whatever, many of the changes have been drip fed into the system and it is only recently that many have really started to feel the squeeze. Equally, many have actually started to question the validity of some of the spending by govts on things that bring little benefit to society, and in some cases actually harms that society.

Although taxation has meant some areas of govt have had their spending largely protected, this increased demand on middle Britain has actually meant the spending by the population has diminished and this has caused more harm to a greater spread of industries and services.

The article questions whether the current level of taxation is the answer to society's woes? Does it hinder growth? Is it the cause of the double dip recession? Has it led to a significant drop in the standard of living of the majority of people who actually contribute the most (financially) to society?

Do you think you are worse off than 7 years ago?

I think most people are worse off than seven years ago but I dont think there is a specific policy to "hollow out" middle Britain as such.What has happened is that the whole of our society has been hollowed out over a much longer period than seven years,more like fourty years and the current recipients of hard times are the sort of people who are not used to belt tightening,and are also articulate and well represented politically,so are talking about it a lot.
If you were a miner,or an industrial worker in manufacturing,or a seafarer,you already got "hollowed out"ten,twenty or more years ago,but that process is now affecting the middle classes as the nation slides inexorably into bankruptcy.Maybe the political clout of these people will force the issue to be addressed in a way it has not been so far,but I doubt it.Shame no one took any notice in the Eighties when we shut down everything that could ever drag us out of the mire.Too late now I fear.

[metalangel]

The bird feeder story doesn't mention the bird that has a broken wing and dies a slow horrible death of starvation and exposure.

[littleoldman2]

This thread is pretty one sided due to the membership of the org and the wider motorcycle community being so similar i.e working but not mega rich. There are no benefit dependent here to give an alternative view. But what I will put foreward is this. When I was made redundent in 2004 I was a 50 year old man with heart problems and a great deal of skill & experience that nobody wanted. I applied for hundreds of jobs without success. So I went through the yellow pages looking for something I could do and became self employed without any help from HMG. Unfortunately I've been off sick since last October and have been very happy that tax payers via HMG have provided me with free NHS treatment and sick pay.
So to all you tax payers THANK YOU

[hardhat_harry]

Yes its pretty one sided the amount of tax I pay compared to the returns I get.

[littleoldman2]

Yes its pretty one sided the amount of tax I pay compared to the returns I get. Lets hope you stay fit, healthy and employed so you never need to get many returns. BTW I'm the only non waged in the house as my wife and three children all work and pay tax.
Alot of these problems are not new, in 1972 I met a chap who didn't work for all the wrong reasons, there was plenty of work about at the time, I spoke to him last in 2004 and he had never had a job. I feel the same frustrations not only from the financial side but also a pride side as I see people unwilling to work or contribute in any way.

[keith_d]

This thread is pretty one sided due to the membership of the org and the wider motorcycle community being so similar i.e working but not mega rich....

There's certainly an element of self-selection in a group like this. We're all bike owning, computer owning, and mostly employed. As bike riders we're likely to be reasonably healthy too. So we're likely to be paying plenty of taxes and not using the health/education/welfare services much.

This might be acceptable if I had any confidence that the government would provide for me in a few decades when I'm too old and feeble to ride my bike. But it's fairly clear they won't have the money when that time comes.

[Lozzo]

There's certainly an element of self-selection in a group like this. We're all bike owning, computer owning, and mostly employed. As bike riders we're likely to be reasonably healthy too. So we're likely to be paying plenty of taxes and not using the health/education/welfare services much.

This might be acceptable if I had any confidence that the government would provide for me in a few decades when I'm too old and feeble to ride my bike. But it's fairly clear they won't have the money when that time comes.

Conversely, I know a lass of about 27 who has two kids by two different dads. She hasn't worked for 6 years, has her rent paid for, has enough disposable to go on holiday every year, runs a 6 year old decent mid-sized hatchback, buys her kids designer trainers and clothes and recently bought a new laptop and a refurbished her bedroom with all new bed and furniture.

I'm doing something very bloody wrong, because I have a decent enough job, but I can't afford to go spending like she does. When I was bringing up 4 kids
I was earning twice what I do now, and that was when a quid bought a damn sight more than it does today. Even then I couldn't afford to go spending money like that, and our house was bought and paid for so we didn't have rent or a mortgage.

If anything the benefit system needs a serious shake up so people like her have to go and find a job, and so that the girls that follow her realise that laying back and getting their knees apart for the local lads does not mean you get a free house and your bills paid for the next 18 years.

[littleoldman2]

If anything the benefit system needs a serious shake up so people like her have to go and find a job, and so that the girls that follow her realise that laying back and getting their knees apart for the local lads does not mean you get a free house and your bills paid for the next 18 years.
When my oldest lad was homeless a couple of years ago the chap at the housing office told him he'd no chance a a council flat unless he got pregnant, sad but true.

[Bri w]

Conversely, I know a lass of about 27 who has two kids by two different dads. She hasn't worked for 6 years, has her rent paid for, has enough disposable to go on holiday every year, runs a 6 year old decent mid-sized hatchback, buys her kids designer trainers and clothes and recently bought a new laptop and a refurbished her bedroom with all new bed and furniture.

I'm doing something very bloody wrong, because I have a decent enough job, but I can't afford to go spending like she does. When I was bringing up 4 kids
I was earning twice what I do now, and that was when a quid bought a damn sight more than it does today. Even then I couldn't afford to go spending money like that, and our house was bought and paid for so we didn't have rent or a mortgage.

If anything the benefit system needs a serious shake up so people like her have to go and find a job, and so that the girls that follow her realise that laying back and getting their knees apart for the local lads does not mean you get a free house and your bills paid for the next 18 years.

When my oldest lad was homeless a couple of years ago the chap at the housing office told him he'd no chance a a council flat unless he got pregnant, sad but true.

We need the benefits system without a shadow of a doubt, if only to catch the "bird with the broken wing," but sadly I feel that there is quite a number of people, whether indiginous or economic immigrants, who see it as a lifestyle choice.

Personally, I agree with David Cameron et al who say that the benefit system should be capped. Why should someone pick up more in benefits than someone earning? Where's the incentive not to be a burden on the tax payer?

As has been pointed out by others, middle Britain is being hollowed out because that is where the finance comes from to pay for the state's grand schemes.

[Bibio]

the biggest problem is the gov paying for people to work as the cost of living is beyond peoples means. simple solution bring the cost of living down. i know it would upset a lot of people as property would have negative equity etc.etc. but in the long run it would benefit everyone. i really don't understand it all, i was always under the usumption that the gov took money from working people to run the country/services not give it away to them.

its not just middle britain its everyone who is being shafted. its worse for the poor as they end up paying higher rates of intrest and such like.

[Biker Biggles]

There's certainly an element of self-selection in a group like this. We're all bike owning, computer owning, and mostly employed. As bike riders we're likely to be reasonably healthy too. So we're likely to be paying plenty of taxes and not using the health/education/welfare services much.

This might be acceptable if I had any confidence that the government would provide for me in a few decades when I'm too old and feeble to ride my bike. But it's fairly clear they won't have the money when that time comes.

Interesting thought about self selection.Having been on this site a few years I do recall a wider scope of opinion up to a year or so ago though.There used to be several contributors here who had very different views to the Daily Mail norm,hardly any of whom seem to post any more.I for one miss the diversity that used to be on the org.

[Lozzo]

Interesting thought about self selection.Having been on this site a few years I do recall a wider scope of opinion up to a year or so ago though.There used to be several contributors here who had very different views to the Daily Mail norm,hardly any of whom seem to post any more.I for one miss the diversity that used to be on the org.

I think the reality is those who had fairly left wing and liberal views have come to their senses and shifted a bit more towards the centre or the right. Only recently both Messie and Ed, both to the left of Trotsky in my opinion, expressed views after the London riots that I'm sure we'd never have seen from them 2 or 3 years ago.

[Biker Biggles]

I think the reality is those who had fairly left wing and liberal views have come to their senses and shifted a bit more towards the centre or the right. Only recently both Messie and Ed, both to the left of Trotsky in my opinion, expressed views after the London riots that I'm sure we'd never have seen from them 2 or 3 years ago.

:D:D:D
Now that made me laugh.Ed to the left of Trotsky:D:D
Ive never met Ed but I feel I know him from this forum,and I respect his views enormously even if I disagree with them.His great political hero(ine)is Thatcher and I couldnt repeat her views on Trotsky on a U rated site.
As for all the lefties coming to their senses I dont think so.They just dont appear much here any more for some reason.Perhaps they dont feel the org is as welcoming or tolerant as it used to be?

[Sid Squid]

I for one miss the diversity that used to be on the org.
Allow me to cut through that to the reality: You're in a minority and people don't much agree with you. I don't imagine that dismissing those who don't share your opinions as 'Daily Mail Readers' will do much to bring them around to your way of thinking either.

Which brings me to; what is it you're missing? As I'm not sure I can tell - but diversity isn't it that's for sure - when people wise up that's not a lack of diversity.

[Messie]

Hello - you called?
Left of Trotsky eh? That's a new one on me! I respect Ed's opinions on many matters but I think that politically we're on very different sides.

I don't share my opinions much on here about such matters because it's tiresome being constantly shouted at for being a wooley leftie yoghurt knitter. I'm no hippy but I do try to see the other side to the debate.

So, I do agree that that our society is being hollowed out from the middle. I am now in the middle and can feel the squeeze. However, I am also in the very lucky position of being able to tighten the belt, and maybe be better off for it. But to all you welfare state haters out there I am only in this lucky position because of the welfare state. I was an unmarried teenage mother many years ago. I eventually got a council flat then went to college then university on a full grant. None of this would be possible now.
I fear for the young of today. My daughter now lives in poverty, despite having two jobs and her husband working. They don't have a hope in hell of everr buying their own place. Home ownership isn't the holy grail I know, but since the sell off of social housing and the lack of new social housing, respectable dignified renting is not an option.
I also agree (eek, with 'Dave')that there should be a cap on benefits, and that immigration should be looked at, but very carefully.
Biker Biggles - I think what you're seeing on the forum is a drift towards the mean ( I think that's the term for it). The group becomes more homogenised as the common majority take hold. People move on as well. I use the forum as a bit of light relief though, and don't want to stick my head above the parapet to get shot at very often

[Biker Biggles]

Hello - you called?
Left of Trotsky eh? That's a new one on me! I respect Ed's opinions on many matters but I think that politically we're on very different sides.

I don't share my opinions much on here about such matters because it's tiresome being constantly shouted at for being a wooley leftie yoghurt knitter. I'm no hippy but I do try to see the other side to the debate.

So, I do agree that that our society is being hollowed out from the middle. I am now in the middle and can feel the squeeze. However, I am also in the very lucky position of being able to tighten the belt, and maybe be better off for it. But to all you welfare state haters out there I am only in this lucky position because of the welfare state. I was an unmarried teenage mother many years ago. I eventually got a council flat then went to college then university on a full grant. None of this would be possible now.
I fear for the young of today. My daughter now lives in poverty, despite having two jobs and her husband working. They don't have a hope in hell of everr buying their own place. Home ownership isn't the holy grail I know, but since the sell off of social housing and the lack of new social housing, respectable dignified renting is not an option.
I also agree (eek, with 'Dave')that there should be a cap on benefits, and that immigration should be looked at, but very carefully.
Biker Biggles - I think what you're seeing on the forum is a drift towards the mean ( I think that's the term for it). The group becomes more homogenised as the common majority take hold. People move on as well. I use the forum as a bit of light relief though, and don't want to stick my head above the parapet to get shot at very often

Alleyuya :sunny::sunny:
Thats the sort of comment I mean.We used to have a lot more of it or do I just have my rose tints on?I even agree with everything you wrote in it:)
As for putting my head above the parapet Im ok with that,but Ive got the body armour just in case;)

[The Idle Biker]

I didn't read all the thread, I guess it's drifted from the original post a bit along the way, but my hats in the left half of the ring, I believe in the founding intentions of the welfare state.

PS; (I still like Sid Squid though) and thank you all for your contributions towards my Dad's dole when he got turfed out of his job of 32 years at the age of 62 and lost his 32 years of company pension contributions to the b***ards who killed Lyons Maid.

[dizzyblonde]

Alleyuya :sunny::sunny:
Thats the sort of comment I mean.We used to have a lot more of it or do I just have my rose tints on?I even agree with everything you wrote in it:)
As for putting my head above the parapet Im ok with that,but Ive got the body armour just in case;)


ssshhhh, its young people(there we go again, but its the truth) with little life experiences that know absolutely everything about the world, who shout rant and rave, and expect those with a differing opinion from their vast none experience in life to shut up and listen to them because their opinion and only their opinion matters.

The debaters grew tired and buzzed off to somewhere a little less hostile :p
Nowt to do with left or right in here, its all about me, me, me, me meeeeeeee:smt120
This isn't offensive, its just I don't wear rose specs, and aren't a whoolie knitter of yoghurt, as realistic as a sledgehammer:-dd

[Milky Bar Kid]

LOL! Lou - as realistic as a sledgehammer! I like that!

I think the issue we have benefits now is that everyone has become so cynical about them due to the cases where people are fraudulently claiming or just not getting off their backsides to get a job. We need a benefits system for the future Messies who are unmarried parents and need a bit of help to get to where they want to go etc etc.

The thing that angers me about the benefit system is how unfairly they treat people who have contributed when they turn around and need help. IIRC Tim Wilky has an excellent example of this when his wife wasn't well. My Grandfather is also a prime example. My Granma died a couple of years ago and because of his pension, that he had worked for and earned, it meant that instead of paying the half rent, half council tax, the LA put his rent and council tax back up to full! So he had less money coming in but they put his rent etc UP!? He's not rich, he gets by.

I will never ever grudge paying tax or NI to fund a benefit system or the NHS because, lets face it, I don't know when I might need it but we need to re-assess things.

Another thing that gets my goat is the fact that in Scotland now, even though our Policing numbers are being cut, our numbers of Doctors and Nurses are being cut, Alex Salmond has scrapped the £5 prescription fee. Now, people who were below a certain threshold, kids, pensioners, etc etc didn't have to pay for it anyway. I personally don't grudge paying for my prescription because IMHO, our country is in dire straits at the moment and we can't afford to be giving stuff away to people for nothing when they can afford to pay for it!

[Bri w]

I don't think the posters on here have strayed far from the point to be honest. At the end of the day "middle Britain" has seen their disposable income cut by various means, whether its in taxes or in no/low pay rises. I'd rather not argue whether a benefit is right or wrong but ask the question have those on benefits seen the same "hollowing out?"

However, on the issue of benefits, and the example of Somalians forming a large percentage of those who've come over and stayed on benefits, another Daily Wail sound bite. The greatest percentage of immigrants in prison are Somalians...

The danger of pointing the finger at any minority group is a "let's gas the jews" mentality. Why are the Somalians not getting jobs, and why are they the greatest percentage of crims? And more importantly, what can be done to help them integrate?

[Luckypants]

And more importantly, what can be done to help them integrate?They can learn to speak our language, learn our culture and fit in. Bri you are in danger of sounding like the liberal woolies that have led us into the mess where the few 'earners' are supporting the whole welfare state and the huge machinery of government that goes with it.

Do what we would have to do in any country you care to name, fit in and get a job. :-dd

[Bri w]

They can learn to speak our language, learn our culture and fit in. Bri you are in danger of sounding like the liberal woolies that have led us into the mess where the few 'earners' are supporting the whole welfare state and the huge machinery of government that goes with it.

Do what we would have to do in any country you care to name, fit in and get a job. :-dd

We're stuck with the ones that are here, and doing nowt won't resolve it. In my view its attend classes in language and Britishness and pass or you're out. That apart I'd say we're full and wouldn't admit anymore. Anyone that commits a crime I'd stick on a plane to their home country irrespective of the circumstances in the UK, wife/family etc, and irrespective of the welcome they'd get in their home country. They should have thought about that before they commited the crime. Any illegal immigrant I'd also send back without the wasted money of a hearing or long term housing.

I'd like to see us using the international laws that are already in place, e.g. those seeking political assylum should do so in a country that borders their own and can be sent back to the own country if they don't. And that illegal immigrants get sent back to the country they've just left irrespective of whether or not it is their own country - this would get the French to stop allowing illegals to just pass through.

Liberal, me? Sometimes but I'm more concerned with losing £xxxx per month in tax to fund people, British or otherwise, that see it as a lifestyle choice and would rob more off me given the chance.

[Lozzo]

However, on the issue of benefits, and the example of Somalians forming a large percentage of those who've come over and stayed on benefits, another Daily Wail sound bite. The greatest percentage of immigrants in prison are Somalians...

The danger of pointing the finger at any minority group is a "let's gas the jews" mentality. Why are the Somalians not getting jobs, and why are they the greatest percentage of crims? And more importantly, what can be done to help them integrate?

They won't integrate, mainly because they don't want to - it really is as simple as that.

No amount of money thrown at this problem is ever going to change that, so we may as well not bother and repatriate any of those who try and stay without showing any willingness to work and repatriate anyone as soon as they are convicted of any crime here... along with their families. The biggest problem with Somalia is the lawlessness of the place. The immigration authorities have absolutely no idea of who these people are and what crimes they may have been convicted of in their own country, and crime is a huge thing over there. We are allowing all manner of scum to enter this country and because we can't be seen to be discriminating against any one sector we have to open the door to them.

It's all very very screwed up.