A cry for help please

[Jayneflakes]

I am sure that many of you know the story of Troy Davis, a man who has been on Death Row for many years despite there being huge issues of doubt over his case.

http://www.kintera.org/AccountTempFiles/account11681/images/troydavis_stoptheexecution_actionimp.jpg

His clemency petition has been denied once again, despite it being well known that statements against him were extracted under duress by Local Police and these statements were later retracted by witnesses. There is also no physical evidence to link him to the crime, yet they still want to execute him.

I am against the Death Penalty even for those who are guilty, so to me this is just disgusting and vile.

Please help by joining in with this campaign. Thank you. (http://takeaction.amnestyusa.org/siteapps/advocacy/ActionItem.aspx?c=6oJCLQPAJiJUG&b=6645049&aid=516533)

Copy and paste this if the link does not work.

http://takeaction.amnestyusa.org/siteapps/advocacy/ActionItem.aspx?c=6oJCLQPAJiJUG&b=6645049&aid=516533

Cheers, Jayne.

[timwilky]

I got into an argument with the daughter when she was doing so pro bono work for a death row inmate in the states. Whilst I do not support the death penalty, I do support a sovereign nations right to make and execute (no pun intended) its own laws.

We would quite rightly get upset if a bunch of yanks started interfering in the British no justice system. What gives us the right to get involved in theirs. Until we fix our own, it is sheer hypocrisy.

[Bri w]

Done and signed, again.

Two wrongs don't make a right, get signed up Tim. Your name could be the one that saves the man's life.

Down the years I too have had many conversations with our daughter no.1. She's not a yoghurt knitter but a highly respected Barrister who can quote chapter and verse on what is wrong with the death penalty. She's convinced me.

[Biker Biggles]

Done.
Same sort of stuff goes on here but at least we dont kill them now,just release them ten or twenty years later with an inadequate apology.

[Lozzo]

It's America's business how they deal with law and order. I would resent any Yank coming here telling us how to run our justice system and for that reason alone I won't sign.

I'm in favour of the death penalty, but only in some circumstances, but we should keep our nose out of other country's affairs on matter such as this.

[minimorecambe]

For once I 100% agree with Lozzo

[gruntygiggles]

No...I don't believe anyone should be executed where there is any outstanding doubt.

I don't agree with the death penalty except in extreme circumstances and where there is absolutely no doubt, however, there is something I disagree with far more.

That is one country getting involved in another countries business. There are times for exception and that is where there is a common interest. For instance, if Troy Davis was a british citizen, I would feel I would be justified in signing the petition.

I agree with Lozzo. I think it is fundamentally wrong to force my opinion on the justice system of another country...I would be livid if it was the other way around.

I have however got a lot of friends in the US and some of them have signed the petition following me asking if they had or not, so I have helped in my own way.

[Bri w]

So if an American citizen was about to make a mistake you'd let them go ahead and make that mistake...

A Good neighbour doesn't interfere, they help. Its about how the message is delivered... don't tell them what to do, ask them why they're doing that way. Open the dialogue and hope they'll take on board the why's and the wherefore's.

[Biker Biggles]

I think its fair comment to say that the British government should think twice before wieghing in on this,but as individuals I think we have every right to voice our opinion to the yanks or to anyone else.Amnesty has achieved a great deal over the years by getting individuals from around the world to write to various governments expressing our views about what they do.There's quite a few people alive today who would'nt be if that had'nt been done.

[gruntygiggles]

So if an American citizen was about to make a mistake you'd let them go ahead and make that mistake...

A Good neighbour doesn't interfere, they help. Its about how the message is delivered... don't tell them what to do, ask them why they're doing that way. Open the dialogue and hope they'll take on board the why's and the wherefore's.

No, I wouldn't...that is a personal thing. I am always there to help others. When it came to an American government handing out justice though, I would not necessarily get involved.

That is me...there is a big difference between opening a dialogue and signing a petition.

I would support our government getting involved as I believe that they would have the gravitas to actually make a difference. The last time I signed an Amnesty International petition...I later found out that my signature would not count as I was a foreign national and yes...that was another death row petition.

I give my support to Troy Davis by having persuaded 7 american friends to sign the petition. Better than my 1 signature.

I think we have to be careful how much we get involved. Anyone that knows me will know I would do pretty much anything to help those in need...whether I like them or not. My issue is that it is very easy to say we want to push our opinions on the US department of justice for this as we feel it is wrong. Yet, we have our arms in the air any time we want justice in this country and the European Court of Human Rights sticks its nose in and takes that justice away from us.

I won't be a hypocrite. I don't like Europe overriding decisions made by our justice system, so I won't then go and attempt the same with someone elses.

Instead, I help in other ways...as I have on this occasion.

[Lozzo]

That is one country getting involved in another countries business. There are times for exception and that is where there is a common interest. For instance, if Troy Davis was a british citizen, I would feel I would be justified in signing the petition.


I don't believe I'd sign even if he was my brother.

It riles me when people get up themselves about Britons being incarcerated in foreign jails for committing crimes abroad or even, in extreme circumstances, facing the death penalty.

You take the punishment that is allowed under the laws of that land. If a country says it's the death penalty for stealing a bar of chocolate, then if you get caught with a mouthful of Cadbury's that you haven't paid for I'm not going to back you up or bitch about how unfair the punishment is. If you don't want to end up being bum-raped in the Hanoi Hilton - don't try smuggling drugs out of or into Vietnam.

It really is that simple.

[gruntygiggles]

I don't believe I'd sign even if he was my brother.

It riles me when people get up themselves about Britons being incarcerated in foreign jails for committing crimes abroad or even, in extreme circumstances, facing the death penalty.

You take the punishment that is allowed under the laws of that land. If a country says it's the death penalty for stealing a bar of chocolate, then if you get caught with a mouthful of Cadbury's that you haven't paid for I'm not going to back you up or bitch about how unfair the punishment is. If you don't want to end up being bum-raped in the Hanoi Hilton - don't try smuggling drugs out of or into Vietnam.

It really is that simple.

If that person were guilty...I would hope that they received the justice coming to them too....but where guilt is not proven or there is doubt, yes, I think they should have the support of their home nation.

[Milky Bar Kid]

I didn't put my name to any petition but I am rather dismayed that despite everything, the witnesses admitting false evidence and another suspect ADMITTING his guilt, the Georgia state and the Supreme Court executed this man. I think they may have just lost what support they had left for keeping a death penalty.

[Amadeus]

As I understand it (and I've read a number of articles in a number of places, but who trusts journalists?), not all witnesses have withdrawn their statements; tho no gun was found, I'm assuming the bullet used to murder the copper was found, and the ballistics tests showed it matched the gun used in the crime Mr Davis was previously convicted of (and didn't dispute). One of the arguments for clemency was that the ballistics was flawed but I've not seen any more detail than that (unless it's the "existence of God" argument - because you can't prove otherwise, it must be true).
It could be argued that because it was a copper who had been killed, there was more effort put into finding and convicting someone.

Personally, I'd rather vent my anger at the killings in places like Iran where people (sometimes children or mentally troubled people) are killed in public by strangulation (so slow as opposed to almost instantaneous when done with more traditional methods). A 17 year old was killed in this manner yesterday - the Iranian legal system said that the guy was 18 because of the lunar cycle (which is shorter than a calendar month). Any petitions for him?

I'd rather not have the death penalty at all but then I'd rather not just lock people up to stew either - get them doing something vaguely useful.

[Balky001]

All unfairness 'should' be challenged but we don't. We make out we don't care or have strong views the opposite way to justify inaction. As long as it doesn't happen to us then let is pass. I think it's generally apathy. I feel sorry for injustices but not really motivated to do anything about it. I'm not going to pretend I have strong conviction towards the independence or autonomy of a country's mickey mouse justice system. this case didn't motivate me to sign as there are those that don't murder that at persecuted (he was guilty of a previous murder wasn't he?). Save it for the more deserving.

[Milky Bar Kid]

I just felt the state were a bit like "we have a death warrant so we don't care what evidence there is the contrary, we are going to use it". I am not particulalry bothered about Troy Davis but I think they have made a huge error of judgement here. They appear to have undermined their own justice system. Why not just give him a retrial if they were so confident he was guilty? That way the masses couldn't criticise them for the conviction being unsafe. Or is it the case they realised they wouldn't get a conviction and that would have been most embarrassing.......an expensive......

[Amadeus]

I think for that argument there would have to be more compelling reasons that those of the Troy Davis case. I take your point, but I think it's probably not the right example.
I think giving a retrial would be like poor parenting - just give in and before you know it, all hell breaks loose.
The uneducated masses are always going to complain about something - think of all the conspiracy theories going around about all sorts of things.

[Milky Bar Kid]

I think for that argument there would have to be more compelling reasons that those of the Troy Davis case. I take your point, but I think it's probably not the right example.
I think giving a retrial would be like poor parenting - just give in and before you know it, all hell breaks loose.
The uneducated masses are always going to complain about something - think of all the conspiracy theories going around about all sorts of things.

You just cannot risk it when there is a death penalty. And I dont think a former president of the USA, former head of the FBI amongst others, can be declared the uneducated.

7 of the 9 witnesses have retracted their statements saying they were forced by the police at the time to make the statements. Suspect Cole has the same calibre of gun, and also made admissions to the killing. Far too much doubt.

I don't disagree with the death penalty but I think Georgia was wrong here. They better hope and pray other evidence isn't found now, because amnesty international and others will sure as hell be looking for it now.

[Amadeus]

And I dont think a former president of the USA, former head of the FBI amongst others, can be declared the uneducated.
I never intended to but a lot of people who believe in conspiracy theories (alien abduction, moon landing fakings etc) are in my mind.

Suspect Cole has the same calibre of gun, and also made admissions to the killing.
I've not read anything about Cole but I'd agree that if someone else has admitted doing it, then that does put a different slant on matters.

They better hope and pray other evidence isn't found now, because amnesty international and others will sure as hell be looking for it now.
Wouldn't it have been more useful to put that effort in whilst Mr Davis was still alive?

I suspect Mr Davis (given his history) wasn't a particularly nice man and won't be missed by many, but I would agree that if he's going to be executed, execute him for a crime he did commit.

[Jayneflakes]

Personally, I'd rather vent my anger at the killings in places like Iran where people (sometimes children or mentally troubled people) are killed in public by strangulation (so slow as opposed to almost instantaneous when done with more traditional methods). A 17 year old was killed in this manner yesterday - the Iranian legal system said that the guy was 18 because of the lunar cycle (which is shorter than a calendar month). Any petitions for him?

I'd rather not have the death penalty at all but then I'd rather not just lock people up to stew either - get them doing something vaguely useful.

There are currently several petitions to end the Death penalty world wide and there is currently a big push for Iran to end Death by Stoning. Amnesty is working hard to bring attention to all cases of the Death penalty, reports show that the numbers of prisoners being killed are dropping, but Amnesty do admit that they do not have figures for China, who continue to execute prisoners in secret.

Personally I have signed several petitions for people in Iran, I am also close friends with a Journalist from Iran who lives near me. When she goes back soon to see her family, I will be praying for her safe return to the UK. Iran is not forgotten, nor are any of the other eighty countries who still allow the use of execution.

Thank you every one who took time to post in this thread, you may not agree with what I asked you to do, but you engaged in discussion and for that I thank you. Some of you have expressed some very interesting views and as long as we keep discussing and not ignoring, good things can happen.

[Stuuk1]

I totally agree with the death penalty.

Those who commit murder/rape are not worthy to walk this earth and are better gone.




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I am here: http://maps.google.com/maps?ll=51.217427,0.245274

[Ed]

...and I totally disagree with you. It is never right to take another's life.

Oh and just because I abhor execution doesn't mean to say I want a country full of murderers and rapists.

[tinpants]

...and I totally disagree with you. It is never right to take another's life.

Oh and just because I abhor execution doesn't mean to say I want a country full of murderers and rapists.

I would disagree with you on that one Ed - for purely personal reasons. I've been in situations where it has been necessary to fire my weapon at others (and yes, I did hit them) but only because I "feared my life, or the lives of my colleagues, were in danger" The last bit is in quotes because thats what it used to say on the Rules of Engagement for Service Personnel in Northern Ireland.

Do I agree with the death penalty? For convictions where there is absolutely no doubt whatsoever, yes I do agree with it. Where there is the smallest doubt it should not be used. Having said that, I believe there is evidence to say that it is no deterrent at all. So if it is no deterrent, why have it? US States that have the death penalty have as high an incidence of murder as those state that don't. Go figure!


Just my 2p

[Amadeus]

Where there is the smallest doubt it should not be used.

Playing devils advicate here to some degree, if the accused insisted that it wasn't them who committed the crime, would that be enough to give that smallest doubt? In theory (and reality actually if you consider twins) DNA doesn't have to be unique so that wouldn't be enough to guarantee a correct conviction.
Surely it either stays where it is, risking the possibility of mistake, or remove it entirely. In Scandanavia it's legal to own weapons, but there are generally (recent events aside) very few gun crimes, so it's not the owning of guns that causes the problems directly (tho obviously it's easier for them to fall into the wrong hands if there are lots of them) but the society.

[flymo]

...stuff...

DNA, even if it is unique to that individual does not prove a crime, it merely adds to a list of evidence that builds up a picture of how likely it is a person committed a crime. Its the jury that weigh up what is before them to make a decision.

[Amadeus]

DNA, even if it is unique to that individual does not prove a crime, it merely adds to a list of evidence that builds up a picture of how likely it is a person committed a crime. Its the jury that weigh up what is before them to make a decision.

Indeed, but I think for a lot of people (should they be on a jury), it would be a major (even only) part of their decision process. I don't think a judge (or anyone) guides a jury through the decision making process, do they?

[flymo]

Yes they do, I've been on a murder jury. The legal representatives on both sides are there to examine/challenge the evidence in great detail

[Milky Bar Kid]

Indeed, but I think for a lot of people (should they be on a jury), it would be a major (even only) part of their decision process. I don't think a judge (or anyone) guides a jury through the decision making process, do they?

That's because DNA is normally a huge piece of the evidential process! If, for example, you have an eye witness naming the accused and then the accuseds DNA found at the scene that the accused denies having ever been at, that means the DNA is a HUGE link! It's like a 1 in a million, possibly more, chance that two people have the same DNA in the world. In the UK it's probably much higher.

You seem to have a pretty dim view of the general intelligence of people. Believe it or not, MOST people are fairly articulate and intelligent and capable of hearing a trial and the evidence for and against the prosecution case and then coming to a reasonable decision.

Oh and a Judge will instruct a jury. If something that is submitted by either side that isn't admissable a judge will direct the jury to disregard or otherwise.