E=mc2

[beabert]

:smt040 Had always kept an open mind on this, and always will. Could the light speed rule it be wrong after all, at least in 3 dimensions. I really hope so.

This being one reason :mrgreen:

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/programmes/newsnight/9598802.stm

Or do i already know the answer? :)

[ravingdavis]

Lol, you can never say for certain one way or the other. Would love to see him go through with his promises but I would suspect he is pretty safe!

[andreis]

You need to read what the experiment is about:

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/science-environment-15017484

Essentially, they don't yet have an explanation as to why or how those particles move faster than light (keep in mind this is NOT like the cerenkov effect where light may travel slower than others things in some mediums), but they definitely do it... Statistically, it's clearly been proven (they've done 16K repetitions of the experiments to get the statistical significance of a rock mountain).

It's such an exciting time to be alive... But you can only be sad and stand in awe of how idiotic we are... It took us 100 years to reach a critical point in relativity theory, but we had plenty of time to do a couple of world wars, "develop capitalism" and so on..

[timwilky]

<Pedant>Is is not e=mc2, but e=mc². Squared and not *2 means a lot different.</Pedant>

[timwilky]

Oh and just joshing you. My Physics aint up to this level.

[andreis]

Meah, neither is mine... Most of us just want a piece of the action and the excitement :D

[yorkie_chris]

Do neutrinos have mass?

[andreis]

Do neutrinos have mass?

Now you're just teasing people to start looking into it :smt019

[yorkie_chris]

Who me? :-P

If you're of a mind to care about this sort of thing then I'm sure you need no teasing. I find the whole thing fascinating and wish my maths was anywhere near good enough to join in any properly informed discussion on it.

[andreis]

Who me? :-P

If you're of a mind to care about this sort of thing then I'm sure you need no teasing. I find the whole thing fascinating and wish my maths was anywhere near good enough to join in any properly informed discussion on it.

I know what you mean... The math was once strong in me, but I've left it for the dark side many moons ago... I still have friends that work in the field, but am no longer able to sustain a proper technical discussion :(

Then again, I'm still up to some properly geekish stuff still ;)

[yorkie_chris]

I've always been more interested in engineering really, though the maths of that still boggles me.

http://imgs.xkcd.com/comics/purity.png

[andreis]

I've always been more interested in engineering really, though the maths of that still boggles me.

http://imgs.xkcd.com/comics/purity.png

:smt043 :smt043 :smt043

That's pretty much the consensus, yes

[andreis]

The big bang theory show describes how neuro-psychology takes it one step further with saying something along the lines of "yes, but we can duplicate your thought processes and thus override the need for theoretical physicists or mathematicians" :cyclopsani:

[Sid Squid]

Could the light speed rule it be wrong?
Yes, of course it is - I have comprehensively demonstrated faster than light travel in my workshop many times. I also have a much simpler proof for Fermat than Andrew Wiles does - too easy, and I am currently developing a new two speed gearbox employing a my recent work on particle-wave duality.

Spannering motorbicycles is merely a sideline.

Anyway, CERN:

I think they've done the right thing - essentially they've said:

"We're demonstrating something that seems wrong, but we can't see what we're doing wrong despite testing it lots."

And asked for everyone to check their data and tell them where they've slipped up.

Or not - depending.

Which would be quite exciting.

[beabert]

<Pedant>Is is not e=mc2, but e=mc². Squared and not *2 means a lot different.</Pedant>

I didnt know how to write in superscript, you pendantic beast :mrgreen: Should have pasted, theres always one :smt019

[yorkie_chris]

c^2 gets the point across.

[beabert]

I think they've done the right thing - essentially they've said:

"We're demonstrating something that seems wrong, but we can't see what we're doing wrong despite testing it lots."

And asked for everyone to check their data and tell them where they've slipped up.

Or not - depending.

Which would be quite exciting.

Exactly, i hate the way its twisted in the press.

The big bang theory show describes how neuro-psychology takes it one step further with saying something along the lines of "yes, but we can duplicate your thought processes and thus override the need for theoretical physicists or mathematicians" :cyclopsani:

New series just started too :smt040

[beabert]

c^2 gets the point across.

I know but it looks a mess :mrgreen:

[andreis]

Exactly, i hate the way its twisted in the press.



New series just started too :smt040

I know, can't wait to get some free time to watch the new episode :smt040 :smt040

I'm hooked

[Balky001]

Do neutrinos have mass?

Yes, I believe they are Roman Catholics


So if something can travel faster than light time travel could be possible. But surely that's just being somewhere before you can see them leaving, not travelling back in time??

[yorkie_chris]

They're talking about dimensions being twisted around so they don't actually go faster than light in one direction, they take a short cut. I'm not sure what that says about the possibility of time travel when viewed from the normal plane of reference.

[Balky001]

Yes, I was just wondering about application. The usual time travel questions came up on this story, well beyong my understanding

[PsychoCannon]

This has so many implications as far afield as Standup comedy!!

The barman says "We don't serve Neutrinos in here!"
A Neutrino walks into a bar.

[andreis]

They're talking about dimensions being twisted around so they don't actually go faster than light in one direction, they take a short cut. I'm not sure what that says about the possibility of time travel when viewed from the normal plane of reference.

I'd think that it would imply not time travel, but space travel. If the problem is that light isn't taking the shortest available route, there is a shorter route (e.g. the one taken by the neutrinos would be one), then it would mean that traveling can be shortened by some amount by traveling the route the neutrinos are :d Surely, this takes place in the 11-manifold so I'd be really worried about following in the particle-steps of those neutrinos :-s

This has so many implications as far afield as Standup comedy!!

The barman says "We don't serve Neutrinos in here!"
A Neutrino walks into a bar.

:D :smt043:smt043
I laughed, I laughed

[Richie]

just on a side note, I've a old school friend who works at Cern, and is apart in the Light speed experiment... :0)
he's asking for donations so he can build a 25Km high tower to measure the speed of light over 730Km.
I asked him why he needs a 25km tower and why 730Km... His reply was..

‎730km is the distance from CERN to gran Sasso (Italy) where the Opera experiment measured the speed of neutrinos to be ever so slightly faster than the speed of light in vacuum. 25km high allows for the curvature of the earth so you can have a direct line of sight over 730km. And use the same gps system etc. to measure time and distance as opera....

[EssexDave]

Do neutrinos have mass?


It used to be assumed that they didn't - but this changed a while back and they accepted that neutrinos have a mass - but that it is tiny.

Time travel fits with the rules of physics if you are travelling into the future.
Part of this is because of time dilation experienced at either high gravities or at intense speeds (near the speed of light) - It's to do with the formula for kinetic energy.

Ke = mv^2
(where m is mass and v is velocity)

Kinetic energy is the energy something has when moving. So the amount of energy something moving has increase to the square of the speed (hence why high speed crashes are so much worse than low speed, and why stopping distance increase so fast with speed.

However, when you near the speed of light, and you add energy to the moving object, it has been observed that the mass starts to increase as opposed to the velocity meaning that you need an inordinate amount of energy to reach those levels. At those speeds, time actually slows down for the traveller.

Bkackwards travel is potentially possible but we don't have any real evidence. Some of the ways include wormholes (which there is no real evidence for but nothing to say they cannot exist).

These type of machines would only allow time travel back to when the machine was made.

Anyway, hope some of you found this interesting :)

[andreis]

Please don't be mad, but I am going to be a little pedantic:


Ke = mv^2
(where m is mass and v is velocity)


Actually,
Ke = 1/2 * m * v^2



and why stopping distance increase so fast with speed.


...and this is also what makes computing stopping distances so difficult when on the move... However, stopping TIMES are linear in speed:

Stop_Time = a * v + b

where :

b = reaction time
a = amount of stopping time required for 1 unit of speed

Generally speaking, you'd need ~0.7sec reaction time (this is calculated from when something occurs to when your fingers start to move) if you're not drunk, and about ~1.2sec after 2-3 beers (that is why you can usually tell someone's been drinking when seeing the accident -> no braking evidence).
Add to that ~0.3sec if your fingers are not already on the brake lever (e.g. you don't cover the front brake).
Also, if computing speed in multiples of 40mph, a = 1sec (it takes 1sec to stop from 40mph when applying the brakes perfectly). Of course, because we generate without ABS about 0.7G on average (instead of 0.9-1G with abs) on perfectly dry roads, then this time is about 1.4sec.



These type of machines would only allow time travel back to when the machine was made.


This is sad, so saaaaad... Otherwise, we would've known by now...


One more thing to note is that actually, travelling faster than the speed of light is possible even under the current paradigm : you just need to compress the space in front of you (high intensity gravity field) and expand the space behind you. Effectively, this would be sort of like running space through a space-turbine...

Of course, we don't have the tech to generate this sort of space-bubble, so, no fast intergalactic travel for now :(

[Richie]

whole conversation :0)


David B
Need to raise money to build a 25km-high tower and measure the speed of light over 730km.....
Like · · Share · Saturday at 22:41 · Privacy:
Andrew Purbrick and Steven Lowette like this.

Richard Jay Sponsored walk? Spot the Higgs Boson competition? Fete with homemade jam stall? I have other ideas if they don't work :)
Saturday at 22:47 · Like

Rad Youngman Why????
Yesterday at 01:03 · Like

Nick Robertson can't you estimate it over this distance using a laser over a 1 meter lenght in a sealed vault in Paris?
Yesterday at 02:12 · Like

Goony Twoshoes I was already wondering what you did with those neutrinos on red bull
Yesterday at 09:31 · Like
Richie Williams does the thickness of the air slow Light down?
Why 25Km tall and measured over 730Km????
if the speed of light is 299792458 metres per second then.......
my head hurts now....
Yesterday at 10:30 · Like

David B ‎730km is the distance from CERN to gran Sasso (Italy) where the Opera experiment measured the speed of neutrinos to be ever so slightly faster than the speed of light in vacuum. 25km high allows for the curvature of the earth so you can have a direct line of sight over 730km. And use the same gps system etc. to measure time and distance as opera....
Yesterday at 10:38 · Like

Rad Youngman URGHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHH ..there was a reason I hated physics at school...sorry David!!..Im sure I would have more fun poking sicks in my eyes!!!
Yesterday at 10:41 · Like

David B sicks? is that some aussie lingo? :-)
23 hours ago · Like
Richie Williams Miss-typed Sticks I believe :0)
21 hours ago · Like

Rad Youngman Was supposed to read sticks.. Thanks richie!!
12 hours ago · Like

Gary Welch I’m thinking balloons, frikkin’ laser beams and Pythagoras – but then that’s my answer to everything.
2 hours ago · Like
Richie Williams Are you also going to eat your pants David?
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/programmes/newsnight/9598802.stm

BBC News - Newsnight - Physicist vows to 'eat shorts' over light speed claims
news.bbc.co.uk
Professor Jim Al-Khalili, Professor of Theoretical Physics at the University of ...
See more
2 hours ago · Like ·
Richie Williams Now I see why you need a25KM tower :0)
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/science-environment-15017484

Light-speed results baffle Cern
www.bbc.co.uk
Scientists are baffled by experiments that appear to show subatomic particles known as neutrinos have exceeded the speed of light.
2 hours ago · Like ·

David B if you have a couple of free hours have a look at: http://cdsweb.cern.ch/record/1384486?ln=en

CERN Document Server: New results from OPERA on neutrino properties
cdsweb.cern.ch
Webcast: Please note that this event will be available live via the CERN Webcast...
See more
2 hours ago · Like

David B balloons move about too much - and a laser beam powerful enough to go 730km will likely pop them! hmmm, sounds like part of the Moonraker plot to me...
2 hours ago · Like

Gary Welch OK. How about the mirrors left on the moon, a protractor and frikkin' laser beams?
about an hour ago · Unlike · 1 person
Richie Williams Damn you Gary, thats what I was just about to suggest....
but I guess they already thought about that... :0/
about an hour ago · Like

David B ah! but the mirrors are there to be able to measure the distance to the moon assuming we know the speed of light. chickens and eggs....
about an hour ago · Like
Richie Williams but then the moon moves at 60 miles per second does it not therefore it's not a fixed point in space...
about an hour ago · Like

David B well if we had a big piece of string between the big frikkin laser and the mirrors....
about an hour ago · Like
Richie Williams this sounds like a script from Monty Python now...
Your just being silly... Stop it. lol
about an hour ago · Like

David B actually I think I recall a piece of string being left between the moon and earth - it has a plastic cup at either end and was used for communication purposes....perhaps we could use that?

[kiggles]

he is a professor at my university.

[Richie]

then you should do your home work young man... ;0)
and Please give him my kind Regards as an old friend :0)

[BigBaddad]

The world is still flat, always will be.

[Richie]

Only round King's Lynn and the Fen's Mate :0)
I should know I lived there for some time and the wife's from there....!