Engine just went pop :(

[DarrenSV650S]

Can anyone help figure out what might be wrong with my bike. It's a K3 with 40k miles. I was out today and suddenly noticed a lot of vibration through the pegs and it wasn't running right. Sounded like the exhaust was blowing. Just louder and rougher than normal. Stopped to have a look if any pipes had come off the airbox or if something was loose but couldn't see much, so kept going.

Got on the dual carriageway and as I was overtaking a car the exhaust started popping and banging really bad and it stuttered for a bit then completely died. I tried starting it but it wouldn't turn over. When I try it, it doesn't turn over fully, as if the battery is dead. But the battery is still reading about 12.5V. So I'm thinking maybe the engine is seized? The oil level is just above the low mark, so it has gone down a bit.

I've got the bike home now rather than paying for it to stay at a garage, but I don't really know where to start. Should I just start stripping the engine? Is there any way to check if it is the engine?

My poor bike :(

[husky03]

drop the oil and see if there's out in it

[Specialone]

It could be electrical, if a coil had gone that would make it run crap for instance, don't condemn it just yet.

If it's got good compression then I'd doubt its gone pop but I'm no expert.


Actually, I think it might be the crank, no I'm certain it's the crank :)

[DarrenSV650S]

Took the battery out and it's 12.7v. I've stuck it on charge just in case but I doubt it's that because that wouldn't really explain the rough running. I'll drain the oil tomorrow and see.

It would be good if it was electrical, but it sounded more serious than that. And since it won't turn over now I think something must be jammed

[barwel1992]

try and turn it over by hand (take cap off left hand side casings and turn it over

[Dicky Ticker]

Remove the spark plugs and see if it spins over on the starter

[-Ralph-]

Have you tried turning it over by any other means but the starter motor?

[DarrenSV650S]

try and turn it over by hand (take cap off left hand side casings and turn it over
I'll try that tomorrow

Remove the spark plugs and see if it spins over on the starter
It doesn't move on the starter just now. Do you think something is jammed against the plug?

Have you tried turning it over by any other means but the starter motor?
No I'll try that tomorrow. I'm guessing it is normally quite hard to turn over by hand since it's so difficult to bump start sv's?

[barwel1992]

not that bad to turn over, u can use a socket + breaker bar to turn it over easy enough

[TamSV]

It doesn't move on the starter just now. Do you think something is jammed against the plug?

With the plugs out there's no compression, so you should be able to turn the motor over very easily - for example you should be able to wheel the bike around in any gear or turn the engine over by hand (in gear/clutch out) using the back wheel with the bike on a paddock stand. If the motor stops turning at any point that's officially "a bad thing".

All the suggestions for turning the motor over (and there's more than one way of doing it as you have now discovered!) are intended to give you a clue if it's something mechanical that's stopping it.

[DarrenSV650S]

ahh right got ya. Cheers

[Specialone]

The back wheel on a paddock stand is the easiest method IMO, rear tyre gives you a good lever as well and helps you feel what's going on, whereas a socket you have to keep moving it around.

[DarrenSV650S]

The oil is completely clean. Nothing in it at all. I took out the plugs and turned the wheel by hand in 6th and it seems to turn ok. I've never done it before so not sure how it should feel but there wasn't anything stopping it turning. It was just stiff then loose, stiff then loose. Tried it on the started briefly and it turns ok.

Bit confused now :?

[-Ralph-]

Put a spark plug in each HT lead in turn, and hold the side of the spark plug against the engine block, and briefly turn over your starter motor. Make sure the plug is visibly sparking. If it isn't sparking, try the other plug, if it still isn't try the other HT lead. Once you have a plug sparking in one of the HT leads, try that plug which you know know is a good one in both leads.

What we are trying to determine is if HT voltage is being supplied to both leads, and if both your plugs are in working order. If both plugs spark in both leads, you have eliminated your ignition circuit, your plugs and your coils from the equation. If not, you've either found the problem or narrowed it down significantly.

When the SV starts running on one cylinder it can feel pretty drastic, and in some circumstances on my K6 the ignition needed switched off and back on again to clear the FI light, before the starter motor would turn over again.

[DarrenSV650S]

Both plugs are sparking in both cylinders. Just refilled the oil, put the plugs back in and it isn't turning again :?

[TamSV]

I'm not the best with electrics so I'll be backing away from this thread and watching from a safe distance. Random thoughts before I go - if it's an electrical problem I always start by making sure the battery is fully charged and the earths (battery and main bike earth) are good. Might be worth a go (costs nowt). I also like to go over my dodgy modded wiring every now and then for any signs of problems - this may or may not apply to you ;).

I know you've done a lot of mods - is the battery still standard SV? I had similar sounding starting problems with my wife's car recently that turned out to be the battery not producing sufficient cranking amps, although fully charged. It was a PITA cos everything individually seemed to check out fine. Stuck the battery in from my car (higher CCA rating) and it fired straight up.

All of the above is quite probably of no help to you. Soz. :(

[Bibio]

check the green connector (ignition) and associated wiring.

take plugs out and check for valve contact at top of piston by shining a bright torch down so you can see the top of the piston. if there has been valve contact it usually leaves a mark on the carbon deposits.

buuut it sounds like the reg/rec unit has failed. even a good fresh battery wont fire up the sv if the reg unit is dud and if it does it wont run for long and it will run rough as a badgers arz. or as sugested it might be an earth problem.

[Specialone]

So ignore not firing up, will the starter motor turn engine at all ?

Could the starter have jammed or lost teeth?

[DarrenSV650S]

I dont think its electrical. The starter motor can crank it with the plugs out but with them back in it wont turn. So does that not mean a valve is maybe stuck and the compression isnt getting out?

[Bibio]

a hamster on a wheel will turn the bike without the plugs being in. if there aint enough juice then the starter will be lazy as.

only way the compression is not getting out is if the camshaft is broken and not turning as its near impossible to jam a valve shut unless its been bent and pushed up by the piston and even then there would be a small gap.

but as usual i'm probably wrong.

[-Ralph-]

Both plugs are sparking in both cylinders. Just refilled the oil, put the plugs back in and it isn't turning again :?

What do you mean by it isn't turning?

Is there any noise or movement at all when you hit the starter button? If it turns with the spark plugs out, even if something was wrong engine wise, it would turn a little bit until it hit or re-compressed whatever is causing this lock.

Or is there just no response to the starter, as if it's not getting any power fed to it at all? ie: nothing at all happens when you hit the starter button.

Can you still turn the rear wheel when the bike is in 6th gear? Never tried it on a v-twin, but even my 600cc single will allow you to turn the engine over with the rear wheel in 3rd gear or above.

[Bibio]

yup. even with plugs in you should be able to turn the engine by hand in gear.

[DarrenSV650S]

When i try to crank it now the starter tries to turn but cant move it and the dash lights go off and on

I havent tried turning it by hand now that the plugs are back in. Im at work now so will have to try later tonight

[yorkie_chris]

Since it is turning over OK by hand but not on starter that suggests an electrical issue.
Is it doing the clicky click thing from the relay?

[Bibio]

if dash lights go off when you hit starter then its juice related.

[-Ralph-]

When i try to crank it now the starter tries to turn but cant move it and the dash lights go off and on

I havent tried turning it by hand now that the plugs are back in. Im at work now so will have to try later tonight

OK, try that and you'll see whether there isn't enough juice to turn the starter, or whether something mechanical is locking your engine.

If you can turn the wheel in a forwards direction by hand with spark plugs in and the bike in 3rd or 4th gear, without having to turn into the incredible hulk, then forget mechanical problems and concentrate on electrics. I assume since you gave us a battery reading, you have a multi-meter?

[yorkie_chris]

Also there is nothing in OP to suggest mechanical carnage. Sounds very plausibly the standard issue charging fail.

[DarrenSV650S]

Since it is turning over OK by hand but not on starter that suggests an electrical issue.
Is it doing the clicky click thing from the relay?

Not sure. It just sounds like the starter cant move the engine

When i was cranking it with the plugs out it sounded a bit clattery, but maybe just cos the plugs were out?

[-Ralph-]

Since it is turning over OK by hand but not on starter that suggests an electrical issue.
Is it doing the clicky click thing from the relay?

He hasn't tried it by hand since he put the plugs back in.

Does he not need to try that first to rule out a valve issue, or a cylinder full of fluid?

[DarrenSV650S]

Yeh got a multimeter which said the battery is fine and it was on charge all last night. Should i try cranking it with the multimeter on the battery?

[-Ralph-]

When i was cranking it with the plugs out it sounded a bit clattery

You were turning it with the rear wheel, you would hear clattery noises from the chain and sprockets turning.

[yorkie_chris]

He hasn't tried it by hand since he put the plugs back in.

Does he not need to try that first to rule out a valve issue, or a cylinder full of fluid?

If valves were hitting piston, plug makes no difference. They would hit with plugs out.

How would cylinder get full of fluid while riding? Cranking with plugs out would clear it too.

[DarrenSV650S]

You were turning it with the rear wheel, you would hear clattery noises from the chain and sprockets turning.

No i cranked it with the starter motor with the plugs out

[mickhew]

Sounds to me like the battery is knackered. Don't trust multi meters, and optimiser chargers, when they say the battery is o.k it doesn't always mean it has cranking power. As someone has said, if the lights dim than it's probably electrical. If the starter can turn the engine with the plugs out, but not when they are in, could mean the battery is so weak it can't even make the compression in the cylinder.
Also. I have read somewhere, that if the reg-rec fails, it can often "take the battery with it", think it was MCN, but that comment might have been made from a reporter not a mechanic.
I would look into the possibility of jump starting it from another bike. If you were near me I'd help but I'm not sadly.

[DarrenSV650S]

The battery is a month or two old. The recovery guy tried jump starting it but it wouldnt turn at all

[Specialone]

I'd put a live feed from another battery directly to the starter relay and see what the turning over is like, if it's nice and strong then I'd suspect that battery.

Speedplays battery died on a rideout last year and wouldnt go with a jumper off the AA guys booster pack, a cell had separated in the battery but was still showing voltage.

It wouldn't even bump start, so just because battery is new it can still be fubar.
They are subjected to harsher conditions and vibrations than car batteries and can just go Pete tong without warning.

[DarrenSV650S]

Ive got a spare battery i can try

[-Ralph-]

Ive got a spare battery i can try

Is it charged? Do you know that battery isn't dead too? You may be better just using jump leads from another vehicle.

[DarrenSV650S]

Yeh it works fine its just the terminals are knackered. Thats why i changed it

[warmshed]

It is possible that the starter has gone faulty. Check the main earth and battery connections. When the start button is pressed you say the lights go out, measure across the battery terminal when this happens, it will tell you if its the starter motor or the wiring and give a part indication as to the battery,

It will only prove that the battery probably ok if you get a good 12 volt reading when trying to crank over in the "stalled " position. wiring would be suspect then.

If the voltage falls down to one or two volts then it could be either the battery or the starter drawing too much current.

[mikerj]

Feeble starter could be a poor/corroded connection on any of the battery cables i.e. either end of the earth cable, the battery to solenoid cable and the solenoid to starter cable. The lights dimming would tend to narrow it to one of the frist two though.

Measure the voltage across the battery whilst you attempt to turn the engine over; it shouldn't drop by more than a couple of volts (maybe as much as three if it's very cold). If it drops much more than this the battery is dead. If it is ok, then measure accross the ground cable and then across the battery to solenoid cable, and then across the solenoid terminals; voltage drop across any of these when cranking should be minimal; a few tenths of a volt at most so select a low range on multimeter if it's not auto-ranging (e.g. 2v)

[-Ralph-]

Corroded earth worth looking for, but issues with the cables to starter and solenoid wouldn't cause the breakdown described in the OP.

[DarrenSV650S]

Ok tried the other battery but pretty much the same happened. This time though it did manage a few full revolutions. Sometimes it sounded clunky, sometimes it sounded fine :confused:
Voltage before was 12.69v, ignition on it was 12.18v, while cranking it went down to about 6 or 7v

With the plugs in I can turn the rear wheel by hand and doesn't feel like it's hitting anything. With the plugs out I can see both pistons moving up and down

Rear cylinder
http://i88.photobucket.com/albums/k164/DarrenStewartTait/05c5d77b.jpg

Front cylinder
http://i88.photobucket.com/albums/k164/DarrenStewartTait/056b1df4.jpg
http://i88.photobucket.com/albums/k164/DarrenStewartTait/41607dd1.jpg

[-Ralph-]

Forget mechanical failure, it's an electrical issue.

Stick that other battery on charge overnight, because I assume it hasn't been used for a while, and so only managing a few revolutions isn't surprising.

The battery doesn't just need to turn the starter, it also has to feed the coils with sufficient voltage to create a good spark. The spark needs voltage, the starter motor needs amps.

Either missing due to the battery and it won't start.

[DarrenSV650S]

I've got the battery that was originally on the bike charging. Could have had them both charging but conveniently sold my 2nd optimate the other week :rolleyes:

[Dicky Ticker]

Am I right in thinking that you refilled the engine with oil,removed the spark plugs and spun it over on the starter motor and heard a mechanical noise not just a popping through the plug holes. You also say it was moving free then tightening up--was this when turning the rear wheel by hand?
What is puzzling me is that you were riding when it locked up.An elect fault will not stop you from turning the engine over unless it is starter related and you say it spins over freely with the plugs removed on nil compression

[DarrenSV650S]

Am I right in thinking that you refilled the engine with oil,removed the spark plugs and spun it over on the starter motor and heard a mechanical noise not just a popping through the plug holes. You also say it was moving free then tightening up--was this when turning the rear wheel by hand?

Refilled it yes, it sounded rattly to me, but I've never spun it with the plugs out before so I don't really know if it's normal noise or not. Yeh turning the rear wheel it was tight, loose, tight loose etc. I'm guessing that was the pistons moving up and down?

[yorkie_chris]

It will go tight/loose etc. as you're having to move the valvegear.

They often sound a bit weird when they're low on juice as the camchain slaps about and the starter drive decides whether it's got the poke to kick it past compression/valve resistance.


Dicky, it didn't lock up, just lost power then stopped and refused to start.

[Dicky Ticker]

Sorry went back and re-read the first post but that is a big drop when the starter is engaged, pointing to electrics

[warmshed]

The volt drop of over 6 volts is too much, as long as you took this reading direct from the battery terminals then you can discount the main wiring feeds. So possible faults.
1. The battery is in poor condition and cannot supply sufficient current to the starter motor, this will pull down the voltage and has a knock on effect of preventing the fuelling and ignition from working.
2. The starter motor is stalling, therefore drawing too much current for a good battery to supply.
This could be due to a mechanical fault in the engine or the starter motor, or the starter motor windings have gone down.

I agree with Ralph that this starting fault does not sound like the original running fault. I would suspect the ignition pickup triggers. It may just be that you have had the bad luck of a faulty battery to confuse you. Obviously it is worth checking that the fuel pump is starting when you switch on the ignition and that all ECU and ignition plugs/connections are sound.

It may be worth removing a spark plug from one cylinder and try to start the engine, with the reduced load the starter motor may well turn it over OK. if no luck try the other cylinder. If it starts it will be rough and sound noisy. As you have electronic ignition it is essential that the removed plug is connected to its HT lead and is in contact with an earth (engine casing) so it can spark.

Have a go report back and we can analyse the fault further. Regards Dave

[mickhew]

If you are using the battery that was originally taken off, why was it taken off previously, because it was knackered? I had no end of slow turn over problems last winter. Bought a new battery, was fine for 2 days then basically died. Bought a new reg/rec, and a Yuasa battery, and it's been lovely ever since. I would focus on the electrical as others have suggested. I would try bump starting it down a hill in 3rd gear if that were my bike, just to get it going. That will at least tell you if the engine fires up or not. A fully charged battery, that hasn't go the cranking power, should still get the engine fired up if you bump it. Bump starting isn't recommended all the time, but just this once....

[DarrenSV650S]

Thanks for the suggestions. Before I try that have a look at this. Sounds very clunky and mechanical to me :(

The weird fuel pump noise at the start is because I had the tank off

lZwJkBhvjCo

[Luckypants]

Engine sounds fine to me...

I'd be looking for electrical issue as others have said.

[DarrenSV650S]

The volt drop of over 6 volts is too much, as long as you took this reading direct from the battery terminals then you can discount the main wiring feeds. So possible faults.
1. The battery is in poor condition and cannot supply sufficient current to the starter motor, this will pull down the voltage and has a knock on effect of preventing the fuelling and ignition from working.
2. The starter motor is stalling, therefore drawing too much current for a good battery to supply.
This could be due to a mechanical fault in the engine or the starter motor, or the starter motor windings have gone down.

I agree with Ralph that this starting fault does not sound like the original running fault. I would suspect the ignition pickup triggers. It may just be that you have had the bad luck of a faulty battery to confuse you. Obviously it is worth checking that the fuel pump is starting when you switch on the ignition and that all ECU and ignition plugs/connections are sound.

It may be worth removing a spark plug from one cylinder and try to start the engine, with the reduced load the starter motor may well turn it over OK. if no luck try the other cylinder. If it starts it will be rough and sound noisy. As you have electronic ignition it is essential that the removed plug is connected to its HT lead and is in contact with an earth (engine casing) so it can spark.

Have a go report back and we can analyse the fault further. Regards Dave
The fuel pump is definitely working and the plugs are sparking, so does that not mean all wiring and connectors should be ok?
The starter has turned the engine over a few times with both plugs in and it didn't want to fire

If you are using the battery that was originally taken off, why was it taken off previously, because it was knackered? I had no end of slow turn over problems last winter. Bought a new battery, was fine for 2 days then basically died. Bought a new reg/rec, and a Yuasa battery, and it's been lovely ever since. I would focus on the electrical as others have suggested. I would try bump starting it down a hill in 3rd gear if that were my bike, just to get it going. That will at least tell you if the engine fires up or not. A fully charged battery, that hasn't go the cranking power, should still get the engine fired up if you bump it. Bump starting isn't recommended all the time, but just this once....
That video was using the battery that was on the bike when it broke down. The older battery was taken off because the terminals were fooked. Bump starting on a hill would involve a looong push lol

Engine sounds fine to me...

I'd be looking for electrical issue as others have said.
It maybe doesn't sound it in the video. It sounds really loud to me :-k

[Bibio]

it take it in the vid you were turning the bike over without the plugs in?

[warmshed]

You say the plugs are sparking, and the fuel pump is working but you dont know if the ECU is telling the injectors to squirt fuel in. Do the plugs get wet? if not try a little fuel down one of the inlets or even the plug hole then try starting. If you get compression and the correct spark at the right time and there is fuel, it WILL fire. One of them is not there.

Good Idea the video but it is still hard to diagnose remotely, I assumed the plugs were in, I would have thought the battery would last more than two short attempts before falling in voltage, still suspect.
Were the meter leads on the battery? if so try on the starter contacts and try again to prove the integrity of the leads.

Try with one plug in as mentioned, check fuel.

[DarrenSV650S]

The plugs were in in the video. Smells like fuel is going in but I'll check. Yeh the meter was on the battery terminals.

Just got a compression tester so away to try that

[DarrenSV650S]

The tester doesn't even come with an adaptor and nobody has one :smt013

[DarrenSV650S]

You say the plugs are sparking, and the fuel pump is working but you dont know if the ECU is telling the injectors to squirt fuel in. Do the plugs get wet? if not try a little fuel down one of the inlets or even the plug hole then try starting. If you get compression and the correct spark at the right time and there is fuel, it WILL fire. One of them is not there.

Good Idea the video but it is still hard to diagnose remotely, I assumed the plugs were in, I would have thought the battery would last more than two short attempts before falling in voltage, still suspect.
Were the meter leads on the battery? if so try on the starter contacts and try again to prove the integrity of the leads.

Try with one plug in as mentioned, check fuel.

The front plug is wet, back isn't. I put fuel in the rear cylinder but nothing changed. Tried the meter on the starter motor and it showed the same drop in voltage when starting. With one plug it couldn't turn it. Both plugs out it still turns it over fine

[Owenski]

The tester doesn't even come with an adaptor and nobody has one :smt013

I might, I've defo got a compression tester with multiple connectors you can borrow the whole bunch if needs be.
Im not much of a spannerman but just brainstorming here have you:
Checked the air intake / have you modified them in anyway?
Jets Clean?
Coil Packs firing?

Is that an imobilisor/alarm LED which is flashing on the dash??

[DarrenSV650S]

I might, I've defo got a compression tester with multiple connectors you can borrow the whole bunch if needs be.
Im not much of a spannerman but just brainstorming here have you:
Checked the air intake / have you modified them in anyway?
Jets Clean?
Coil Packs firing?

Is that an imobilisor/alarm LED which is flashing on the dash??

Cheers but I think I'll just order one online.
I used to run it without the snorkel, just put it back on recently. I was on my way back from buying a new air filter when it broke down so guess I may as well try that.
Dunno about the jets but the spark plugs are firing

The flashing LED is just the inforad/gps

[DarrenSV650S]

All the caps seem to move up and down fine. How do you check the valves at this stage?

Rear
http://i88.photobucket.com/albums/k164/DarrenStewartTait/DSCF0021-3.jpg

http://i88.photobucket.com/albums/k164/DarrenStewartTait/DSCF0022-5.jpg

http://i88.photobucket.com/albums/k164/DarrenStewartTait/DSCF0023-7.jpg

Front
http://i88.photobucket.com/albums/k164/DarrenStewartTait/DSCF0024-7.jpg

http://i88.photobucket.com/albums/k164/DarrenStewartTait/DSCF0025-4.jpg

http://i88.photobucket.com/albums/k164/DarrenStewartTait/DSCF0026-5.jpg

[mickhew]

If you buy a compression tester bear this in mind.. Last time I used one, the instructions said the engine must be turned over for a period of time, I think it was around 8-10 seconds, was a long time ago. Your battery will need to be up for this. Maybe look on youtube to see if there are any videos of other people doing it. Cars should be the same process, or therabouts. If your battery dies quickly you won't get a true reading.
Mick.

[-Ralph-]

Hang on a minute.

The original battery drops to 6v on starting.

The battery with the fooked terminals has been sitting in the garage for how long? And hasn't yet had a full charge?

Everyone is telling you it's electrical and pointing at your battery.

You need to get a battery on the bike which is known to be in good health and known to have a full charge.

Why are the top end covers off, and why do you want to inspect the valves at this stage?

If you want it fixed stop jumping from one thing to the next, and go through a logical step by step process of elimination.

HTH ;-)

[DarrenSV650S]

Both batteries have been charged. Im trying the valves because it doesnt sound right to me.

[Bibio]

ding ding, stop the bus.

http://img710.imageshack.us/img710/7424/dscf002251.jpg (http://imageshack.us/photo/my-images/710/dscf002251.jpg/)

unless that cam has a different dwell angle on each lobe then something is up as the valve buckets are at different heights.

[DarrenSV650S]

Cant see very well on my phone. Look the same from here?

[Bibio]

must be the angle of the camera.. lol

[yorkie_chris]

Sounds very clunky and mechanical to me :(



Sounds flat to me.

[beabert]

Hang on a minute.

The original battery drops to 6v on starting.

The battery with the fooked terminals has been sitting in the garage for how long? And hasn't yet had a full charge?

Everyone is telling you it's electrical and pointing at your battery.

You need to get a battery on the bike which is known to be in good health and known to have a full charge.

Why are the top end covers off, and why do you want to inspect the valves at this stage?

If you want it fixed stop jumping from one thing to the next, and go through a logical step by step process of elimination.

HTH ;-)

+1 you still havent used a strong new battery, you are getting way ahead of yourself.

[andrewsmith]

ding ding, stop the bus.

http://img710.imageshack.us/img710/7424/dscf002251.jpg (http://imageshack.us/photo/my-images/710/dscf002251.jpg/)

unless that cam has a different dwell angle on each lobe then something is up as the valve buckets are at different heights.

Looks like the camera angle. I thought the same when I looked at the pic.

Darren
Try the new battery, nick a battery off something else in the garage if need be.

You tested and inspected the fuel pump/ lines? as that didn't sound over smart.

[DarrenSV650S]

must be the angle of the camera.. lol
Must be. They both look flush with the metal to me

Sounds flat to me.
Flat as in normal? Sounds horribly loud and knocky when I'm cranking it :(

+1 you still havent used a strong new battery, you are getting way ahead of yourself.
The battery with the fooked terminals is totally healthy and has been charged.

Looks like the camera angle. I thought the same when I looked at the pic.

Darren
Try the new battery, nick a battery off something else in the garage if need be.

You tested and inspected the fuel pump/ lines? as that didn't sound over smart.
Don't have any other batteries to try unless the car battery would be ok?
Do you mean the fuel pump when I switch it on? That's just because I had the tank off, so it was sucking air to begin with

[beabert]

Must be. They both look flush with the metal to me


Flat as in normal? Sounds horribly loud and knocky when I'm cranking it :(


The battery with the fooked terminals is totally healthy and has been charged.


Don't have any other batteries to try unless the car battery would be ok?
Do you mean the fuel pump when I switch it on? That's just because I had the tank off, so it was sucking air to begin with

Car battery is fine, rig some jump leads up.

[andrewsmith]

Must be. They both look flush with the metal to me


Flat as in normal? Sounds horribly loud and knocky when I'm cranking it :(


The battery with the fooked terminals is totally healthy and has been charged.


Don't have any other batteries to try unless the car battery would be ok?
Do you mean the fuel pump when I switch it on? That's just because I had the tank off, so it was sucking air to begin with

rules that out then.

As bearbert has said, rig a car battery up to do the test

[-Ralph-]

You cant possibly know that the battery with the fooked terminals is any healthier than the one that was on the bike. To be healthy batteries need to be in use, sat on a shelf in your garage leaking away charge for months on end theres no guarantee it is excepting charge and able to deliver the current your starter needs. The optimiser is nothing more than a voltage meter built onto a battery charger. It may give the battery te green light, but until that battery has been used to sucessfully start a motorbike (any motorbike) you cant say anything about it with any certainty.

The problem may not be battery related, but you need to eliminate it from your diagnosis. So long as you have something in the system you are not sure about youll go round in circles.

You will be swearing if your half way through pulling something apart that you didnt need to and you shear one of your Suzuki cheese bolts, leaving yourself with two problems to fix, one you dont know what it is and one you unecessarily created.

[hindle8907]

Why haven't you tried to bump start it ?

[warmshed]

"The problem may not be battery related, but you need to eliminate it from your diagnosis. So long as you have something in the system you are not sure about youll go round in circles."


Well said Ralph, It would be top of my list.

[Specialone]

Ralphs correct, check / replace the easy stuff first.

How many of us have barged straight into pulling something apart convinced it's that then find out it was something cheap and easy to fix.

I once ripped 6 month old hydraulic rockers out of my mk2 golf because it was sounding like a tank and I'd heard this noise before. £100 lighter and a days messing later, still got noise.
I'd had a new polished and ported head and fast road cam so discounted this, turns out when checking out the new repair I feel a blow by the exhaust manifold, the stud had broke and was causing a bad blow.

So stripped manifold off and drilled it out, fixed it straight away in about 3 hours, moral of the story, don't assume, I don't always get it right.

[DarrenSV650S]

Tried bump starting it yesterday, no joy. Just tried the car battery and it wouldn't turn over with that either

[Geodude]

Is the ecu ok? i remember muzikill having starting probs and im sure it was that?

[Bibio]

muzikill was the injectors blocked.

[Nobbylad]

Set fire to it and claim a new one on the insurance.

[Geodude]

muzikill was the injectors blocked.

Ah righto bib it was 21quest ecu wire (http://forums.sv650.org/showpost.php?p=2542389&postcount=17) sorry

[DarrenSV650S]

I know I know, I shouldn't be checking this, I should be concentrating on electrical problems. But can someone please confirm if this chain is off by one tooth? The rear cylinder looked fine. This is the front and to me it looks like the markings are off. It is lined up with the F mark

http://i88.photobucket.com/albums/k164/DarrenStewartTait/DSCF0033-7.jpg

http://i88.photobucket.com/albums/k164/DarrenStewartTait/DSCF0021-4.jpg

http://i88.photobucket.com/albums/k164/DarrenStewartTait/DSCF0030-8.jpg

http://i88.photobucket.com/albums/k164/DarrenStewartTait/DSCF0024-8.jpg

http://i88.photobucket.com/albums/k164/DarrenStewartTait/DSCF0031-4.jpg

[TamSV]

Looks OK to me Darren. So long as you've got 16 pins between the 2 and 3 marks, and the chain is tensioned, then you're good.

Obviously can't count them with the guard in the way, but you do definitely have an even number of pins between the marks, and that even number is very likely to be 16.

Take the guard off and count the pins if you need to satisfy yourself.

Don't worry about the actual position of the chain looking different to the diagram. It's just a chain - it doesn't care which particular pin the markings are pointing at.

[DarrenSV650S]

Yeh it is 16

[TamSV]

I think you've comprehensively ruled out engine seizure.

Have you tried the other simpler stuff mentioned? i.e. Checked your earths? Unplugged and checked all the connectors?

[DarrenSV650S]

Checked most of the connectors. Still cant belive that noise is normal :?

[Bibio]

i know you have said that the plugs are sparking but have you tried swapping them out for another set?

[DarrenSV650S]

No just figuired they are working so thats that. Surely they couldnt both go at the same time. And wouldnt explain why it wont turn over

[warmshed]

Did you check the fuel is being injected? Ignition should be checked to ensure its sparking at the correct time. too far advanced can stall the motor against the starter but I would have thought you would get some indication that the fuel was being ignited even at the wrong timing, a pop or bang.

Easy for me to suggest ... I think I would then try the starter motor, at least remove it and check it, connect it to the wires and see if it is spinning freely, if OK, next I might then look at the starter sprag clutch.

I am always reminded that the most difficult faults normally have a very easy solution so double check each thing before dismissing it and moving on to something more involved.

[Bibio]

this is going to sound stupid but have you tried tapping the starter with a hammer while you are cranking the bike over? it may be gummed up. i know that it works with lazy starters on cars.

have you tried turning the bike over without the plugs in?

BTW a bike that is running rough or misfiring will sound like potatoes and nails in a tumble dryer.

you have also said that one plug is wet and the other is dry so that would indicate that one cylinder is indeed firing or at least trying to.

[warmshed]

You may have two faults, if the engine is free to turn without the plugs then the starter must come under suspicion, even if it has nothing to do with the rough running. the fueling is controlled by the ecu so it could affect one or both cylinders, did you try a drop of petrol down the inlets or plug holes?


The starter sprag could be jamming, that would make a noise and affect the running.

[DarrenSV650S]

Did you check the fuel is being injected? Ignition should be checked to ensure its sparking at the correct time. too far advanced can stall the motor against the starter but I would have thought you would get some indication that the fuel was being ignited even at the wrong timing, a pop or bang.

Easy for me to suggest ... I think I would then try the starter motor, at least remove it and check it, connect it to the wires and see if it is spinning freely, if OK, next I might then look at the starter sprag clutch.

I am always reminded that the most difficult faults normally have a very easy solution so double check each thing before dismissing it and moving on to something more involved.
Havent checked the fueling yet. The starter can spin fine with the plugs out

this is going to sound stupid but have you tried tapping the starter with a hammer while you are cranking the bike over? it may be gummed up. i know that it works with lazy starters on cars.

have you tried turning the bike over without the plugs in?

BTW a bike that is running rough or misfiring will sound like potatoes and nails in a tumble dryer.

you have also said that one plug is wet and the other is dry so that would indicate that one cylinder is indeed firing or at least trying to.yep turns fine with no plugs. Doesnt with 1 out.


You may have two faults, if the engine is free to turn without the plugs then the starter must come under suspicion, even if it has nothing to do with the rough running. the fueling is controlled by the ecu so it could affect one or both cylinders, did you try a drop of petrol down the inlets or plug holes?


The starter sprag could be jamming, that would make a noise and affect the running.
Dropped some fuel in and got in trouble for it on the local forum lol.








Ill need to find out how you check if fuel is being injected properly

[-Ralph-]

The bike was running fine, then you had a breakdown. I doubt that two faults occurred at the same time, but accept that the one fault could have created another before the engine came to a stop.

I would still recommend that you troubleshoot one thing at a time. In any case what good is it knowing whether fuel is getting into the engine, or whether your spark plugs are good, if you can't turn the engine over and ignite the fuel in the first place?

You have a bike where the starter motor won't turn over. This is the problem you need to concentrate on fixing!

The starter motor is actually a very simple system. Here it is, this diagram is what makes it go, and as we know that when you press the starter button it tries to turn, we know you get a live feed from the switch to the starter relay, so everything inside the red box is good. What is left outside the red box that could be faulty? Not much eh!

http://i227.photobucket.com/albums/dd82/colinbal4/startermotorcircuit.png

Battery - We think it's good. I've harped on about batteries enough, so going to assume the car battery you used wasn't one that came out of a Ford Cortina in 1977 and has sat in your dads garage ever since. If that battery can start a car, it can start your bike. The best one to use would be one you've taken out of, or are using jump leads from, a working car.

Earth from the battery - check connections, corrosion, breaks in the cable.

Starter cable from battery to starter relay - check connections, corrosion, breaks in the cable

Starter relay - working but making a very poor connection which isn't allowing enough current to flow

Earth from the starter - it's bolted into the engine, this should be fine, but there is an earth strap from the engine to the frame, check connections, corrosion, breaks in the cable

Starter motor itself knackered - why would this cause the breakdown? As a last resort remove the starter and check condition of brushes, commutators, and armarture coil.

These are what makes the starter motor go. Engine failure is unlikely I think, but there's still the chance that something in the engine is making the starter motor stop, but given it turns with the plugs out, you can only be looking at valves/compression.

[-Ralph-]

Just watched your video a few times, first time I've been on a high enough speed connection to do so in the last few days.

Everyone - on the last time he turned it over, the rotation seemed to speed up momentarily. Was the engine just starting to fire?

If so, all he needs to do is get that starter motor spinning properly and this engine will start.

[-Ralph-]

Other thing to note from the video is between each attempted start the fuel pump primes, which suggests each time he hits the starter button, the current drain in the system is so great, the ECU thinks he's switched off his ignition.

[beabert]

Still sounds electrical. Where was the car battery from lol.

Probably not but at this poor sv.


broke down the other day bike was making funny clinking sound when being started then just cut out on the way home on taking the dyno cover off found a magnet missing and a few teeth missing from the flywheel god knows what its done to the rest of the engine!6HtRrOvG4Ak

[yorkie_chris]

Unlikely. If timing had moved then cams would not line up in any way as makes sense. For moment I agree with ralph as before. Still sounds flat to me.

[DarrenSV650S]

The bike was running fine, then you had a breakdown. I doubt that two faults occurred at the same time, but accept that the one fault could have created another before the engine came to a stop.

I would still recommend that you troubleshoot one thing at a time. In any case what good is it knowing whether fuel is getting into the engine, or whether your spark plugs are good, if you can't turn the engine over and ignite the fuel in the first place?

You have a bike where the starter motor won't turn over. This is the problem you need to concentrate on fixing!
That's a good point. One reason I wanted to be certain there wasn't something mechanical stopping it from turning properly.

The starter motor is actually a very simple system. Here it is, this diagram is what makes it go, and as we know that when you press the starter button it tries to turn, we know you get a live feed from the switch to the starter relay, so everything inside the red box is good. What is left outside the red box that could be faulty? Not much eh!

http://i227.photobucket.com/albums/dd82/colinbal4/startermotorcircuit.png

Battery - We think it's good. I've harped on about batteries enough, so going to assume the car battery you used wasn't one that came out of a Ford Cortina in 1977 and has sat in your dads garage ever since. If that battery can start a car, it can start your bike. The best one to use would be one you've taken out of, or are using jump leads from, a working car.

Earth from the battery - check connections, corrosion, breaks in the cable.

Starter cable from battery to starter relay - check connections, corrosion, breaks in the cable

Starter relay - working but making a very poor connection which isn't allowing enough current to flow

Earth from the starter - it's bolted into the engine, this should be fine, but there is an earth strap from the engine to the frame, check connections, corrosion, breaks in the cable

Starter motor itself knackered - why would this cause the breakdown? As a last resort remove the starter and check condition of brushes, commutators, and armarture coil.

These are what makes the starter motor go. Engine failure is unlikely I think, but there's still the chance that something in the engine is making the starter motor stop, but given it turns with the plugs out, you can only be looking at valves/compression.
On my to do list tomorrow

Just watched your video a few times, first time I've been on a high enough speed connection to do so in the last few days.

Everyone - on the last time he turned it over, the rotation seemed to speed up momentarily. Was the engine just starting to fire?

If so, all he needs to do is get that starter motor spinning properly and this engine will start.
It wasn't even thinking about firing. But since that video I have tried turning it over a few more times and the most I got out of it was an exhaust backfire when I opened the throttle while trying to start it


Other thing to note from the video is between each attempted start the fuel pump primes, which suggests each time he hits the starter button, the current drain in the system is so great, the ECU thinks he's switched off his ignition.
Yep, sometimes the dash goes completely blank then restarts


Still sounds electrical. Where was the car battery from lol.

Right to clear this up and put an end to it. The battery is from my car which I use every day. It's bursting at the seams with electricity. It is a hulk of a battery. It's so powerful it has bi-ceps. It does 200amp push ups just for fun. It's so feckin immensely powerful when I went to get it out the car it unbolted itself and pounded its way over to the garage, leaving battery shaped pot holes in the driveway.