View Full Version : For the green laners...
-Ralph-
30-10-11, 08:04 PM
BBC4 Tonight at 9pm
Tales from the National Parks
Season 1 Episode 2
The Peak District - Richard Macer spends a year filming in the Peak District, where the increased use of off-road vehicles on the area's green lanes has angered many walkers, horse riders and residents of local villages, who believe drivers are ruining the area's natural beauty. He follows campaigners as they try to get the vehicles banned from their local lanes, and meets officials from the Peak District Park Authority who are trying to resolve the conflict
husky03
30-10-11, 08:09 PM
I thank you sir:)
AndyBrad
30-10-11, 08:15 PM
too bloody right! get em banned!
-Ralph-
30-10-11, 08:17 PM
too bloody right! get em banned!
:smt116
Specialone
30-10-11, 08:30 PM
Cheers Col, sky +ed
BBadger
30-10-11, 08:55 PM
bah green lanners are a foolish bunch all about 17" rims :p
shull be watching!
Specialone
31-10-11, 08:47 AM
Well, what a bunch of selfish, horrible, single minded old c**ts.
The programme was heavily biased with only two really small pieces from the other side of the things, the laners.
Its being discussed heavily on off road forums so don't wanna repeat everything but what are people's thoughts on here who seen the programme?
husky03
31-10-11, 09:16 AM
same as you mate-old selfish moustache wearing stinking of pi$h geriatric rambling fools-and that was just the women.They want the use of the land for themselves and themselves only and can't see their own ignorance. There needs to be some come and go on both sides as i wouldn't fancy having the dogs out a walk and having half a dozen bikes shooting by.
The estate management need to look at passing places and better land management so that the safety of all is the priority.
husky03
31-10-11, 09:34 AM
oh and what a fecking jobsworth that copper was-"i need to get my book so turn the camera off" quite ok for them to film the bikers getting stopped but not to show the copper giving him a ticket-double standards
Specialone
31-10-11, 10:02 AM
oh and what a fecking jobsworth that copper was-"i need to get my book so turn the camera off" quite ok for them to film the bikers getting stopped but not to show the copper giving him a ticket-double standards
Yep, he was on the side of the ramblers obviously, he could go running back to the meetings them and say I've caught so many bikers this month.
Major cok IMO.
My biggest problem is walkers/ ramblers have tons of byways, paths to use which go across farmers land etc and when farmers get annoyed at them, they oppose this too which is no different to the green laners.
They want everything and Bolox to everyone else.
husky03
31-10-11, 10:05 AM
yeh mate -we coppers need to be transparent in everything we do and if he was not willing to issue a ticket on camera he shouldn't have taken the cameras with him in the first place.
-Ralph-
31-10-11, 10:19 AM
Notice the cameras weren't allowed in a couple of the 'meetings' either. So what was there to hide that wouldn't have done their case any good?
To be fair to the copper, he may have told the cameras he was 'getting his book out', then given the two lads a rectification notice each. He may have wanted to do it off camera so he didn't get flak for NOT writing a ticket.
Icanopit
31-10-11, 11:56 AM
Declaration of interesty, I HAVE A FOOT IN BOTH CAMPS.
The areas of concern I rode competitive motorcycle events some years ago and in recent years favoured the area for walking.
To be constructive, the main DAMAGE is being made by uncaring large numbers of HIGH SPEED 4 x 4s and quad bikes, as can be seen by th deep extent and sideways erosion of the said ruts which creates the broadening/deepening effect of the lanes, which will obviously upset the residents and the walkers and invariably makes it impassable for 2 wheels with or without engines.
Access to most of the areas of concern is a privilage and freedom of access to us all, it is such a great shame that an increasing number are abusing these rights without due consideration and will eventually loose this access for everyone.
As the Parks executive said, people won the right to have the countryside open and to have a right to access. They cannot back down and do the reverse.
I too found the program very biased in favour of the green lane protestors. Their wants and demands were flawed and unreasonable by all means. IMO i think that the Park was doing a good job in being impartial and not caving in to the demands of the self righteous stamping their feet.
I'd be interested to see if there is a follow up program to this to see what is happening with it all
Icanopit
31-10-11, 01:20 PM
I think theres another one next week but unsure what the format/region is?
I watched it and to be fair, they 4x4 fans hardly did themselves any favors. Their arguments were really weak and offering to cut back some hedges was a bit pathetic.
The National Parks were opened up to allow people access to areas of outstanding beauty, mainly ramblers. I don't think in 1932 they ever envisaged gas guzzling 4x4s tearing up and down the roads, cutting massive trenches into the ground etc.
I think there needs to be a sensible approach and respect shown to all. If I feel like riding at high speed, I book a track day etc. If people want to test their vehicles off road, then do it off road on private land, not in someones backyard, even if that means you have to pay £80 for the privilege.
To me they just want to have their fun for free on someones else's turf and not have to worry about the road repairs after.
Specialone
31-10-11, 02:32 PM
Speaking from me and the green laners I know, you've got it all wrong mate.
Average speed on most I've been on has been less than 20 mph, but that's not the point, these are mostly ancient roads, used for centuries by horses, people, armys in some cases, what right have a few ramblers got to change it just for their benefit.
It's not free play either, it's about freedom to ride roads we pay for, these aren't somebody's back garden like a lot of the footpaths these wee smelling walkers use, they are mapped roads on the whole.
I agree some discretion by both sides is called for, it can't be sustained the way it is.
husky03
31-10-11, 02:42 PM
"The National Parks were opened up to allow people access to areas of outstanding beauty, mainly ramblers."
I think you'll find mate that the parks were opened up to allow EVERYONE access to enjoy the environment, not mainly ramblers but any person.Maybe there should be certain restrictions and an annual fee which would provide funding for estate management-bottom line is the people who can afford to live in these areas do not want to share them with anybody outwith their own group.
Speaking from me and the green laners I know, you've got it all wrong mate.
No you've got it all wrong thinking I've got it all wrong, mate. And two wrongs don't make a right, right? And two rights mean you've gone back on yourself.
Average speed on most I've been on has been less than 20 mph, but that's not the point, these are mostly ancient roads, used for centuries by horses, people, armys in some cases, what right have a few ramblers got to change it just for their benefit.
My point exactly, despite the horses, people and armies, only now do the lanes get ruined! And it's the ramblers that got us the national parks in the first place.
It's not free play either, it's about freedom to ride roads we pay for, these aren't somebody's back garden like a lot of the footpaths these wee smelling walkers use, they are mapped roads on the whole.
I think it's fair to say they're riding these roads for sport, and the more ruts in the road the better the challenge, so it's in their benefit to ruin the green roads even more.
Saying we pay road tax isn't a valid reason to justify this. In that case I may as well put snow chains on my car even in summer and get my monies worth from my tax disc.
"The National Parks were opened up to allow people access to areas of outstanding beauty, mainly ramblers."
I think you'll find mate that the parks were opened up to allow EVERYONE access to enjoy the environment, not mainly ramblers but any person.Maybe there should be certain restrictions and an annual fee which would provide funding for estate management-bottom line is the people who can afford to live in these areas do not want to share them with anybody outwith their own group.
Yes, mate, enjoy the environment. And you can only enjoy it, if you maintain it. You also have to respect those effected by your actions in order to preserve it for future generations. So by tearing up and down green lanes, destroying them, getting stuck, hitting walls and leaving debris in your wake isn't exactly helping their cause.
Specialone
31-10-11, 03:29 PM
Again, youve got it wrong.
Firstly, 4x4's do some damage, bikes do not.
1000's of ramblers walking the same routes damage trails, paths, byways etc, this isnt my opinion btw.
If it wasnt for green laners, a lot of these lanes wouldnt be accessible for anyone, ive been on quite a few where they are severly overgrown and i know for a fact the ramblers wouldnt walk them, vehicular access at least keeps some of these lanes open.
I like the fact im riding these roads i couldnt access in my car, for me its not about going fast, in fact the ones that are churned up i avoid cos they are a pain in the winter as you literally have to crawl through with your feet down half the time.
Some of the ROADS are even on satnavs, why shouldnt i use them within the law?
Oh btw cut the crap about sport, you dont take a corner fast on the road or break the speed limit ever do you? If you do, why do you do it? thats only for tracks apparently.
BIG difference between the off ( on road actually cos most are roads) road community and ramblers etc is, we dont want to stop access for them, we want everyone to use these lanes, they just want them all to their selves.
We see horse riders sometimes on the lanes, most are friendly and appreciate our courteous nature by keeping noise down and even turning engines off sometimes while they pass.
I suggest you learn a bit more before tarring everyone with the same brush mate.
Luckypants
31-10-11, 03:50 PM
The National Parks were opened up to allow people access to areas of outstanding beauty, mainly ramblers.
Read here (http://www.nationalparks.gov.uk/press/history.htm) for more information on the creation of National Parks, you will see it was most definitely NOT mainly the ramblers. Just because an area is a National Park, it does not give you the right to wander about wherever you like nor to drive on any road you like, as you seem to intimate.
I don't think in 1932 they ever envisaged gas guzzling 4x4s tearing up and down the roads, cutting massive trenches into the ground etc.
No I doubt that they did as vehicles can only be used on roads and Rights of Way where vehicular rights exist. These are not affected by National Parks and Access to the Countryside Act of 1949. Basically no right of way on the road, you are driving illegally on private land (see the idiot (http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-wales-north-west-wales-15387484) who drove his 4x4 up Snowdon) and likely to be charged with dangerous driving or similar (http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-wales-north-west-wales-15215767)
Where the 4x4s are being driven in this program, from what I see it is legal to do so and the folks who are objecting are objecting to people pursuing a legal pastime.
-Ralph-
31-10-11, 03:57 PM
@Stenno
Rambling is a sport, mountain biking is a sport, riding your bike on the road unless there is a specific destination, is a sport. Half the of the people in the Peak District at the weekend are there for the sport.
This is part of the argument, people using the land for pursuit of their sport/recreation, want to prevent other people from also enjoying that land in pursuit of theirs. As said earlier, less that 2% of rights of way are open to motorised traffic, the ramblers have the other 98% upon which to practice their sport, yet want to ban green laners and have the whole 100% to themselves. Kinda selfish eh?
"Despite the horses, people and armies, only now do the road get ruined!" - because in the days when these roads were used for transport, they were maintained, and traffic was few and far between. Now these roads are no longer part of the core transport network, they are no longer maintained, and so have naturally fallen in to disrepair as a result of that, then on top of that they carry LOTS of traffic, mainly ramblers, some mountain bikes, etc. Rights of way being eroded and widened is not a problem unique to green lanes, some of the footpaths in the peaks, Snowdonia and Scotland, with no motorised traffic, are so wide and eroded they can be seen from space like a scar across the landscape!
I agree with you that 4x4's churning up the lanes and making them more and more unpassable, in order to make them more of a challenge are a problem. Some of the best lanes in Northants for bikes, are those that have been TRO'd for 4 wheeled vehicles. I agree with lanes being TRO'd because of environmental impact, but think this should only be until they can be reinforced with gravel or stone, such that the 4x4's can again use them without causing damage. It is also an offence to damage a highway, and I'd like to see some of those ripping up these green lanes prosecuted, as they are the ones who are going to spoil it for everyone.
Woah, calm down dear! You seem to be letting your emotions enter this discussion. Firstly I've not mentioned bikes yet, only 4x4s. I agree that ramblers/walkers also cause damage (albeit not to the same extent) and I fully support these issues being addressed as well with the necessary maintenance and controls put in place.
I'm saying I can sympathise with those living locally that at one time could walk or horse ride along a green lane, only for it to be destroyed by vehicle access for pleasure.
And as for the crap about sport, yes I speed on occasion but I don't ride round the houses at 120mph trying to get my knee down (or face down more recently) on mini roundabouts. No I pay for the privilege of using a purpose built track and facilities.
Times change and just because a green lane is an ancient means of access... for pedestrians and horses... I fail to see how tearing it up with a 4x4 is justifiable.
-Ralph-
31-10-11, 04:02 PM
The OAP NIMBYS are just ridiculous. As is the campaign on Chirpit Lane, no reason to close that there at all. The desire to ban all off-road activity in the Peaks is totally discriminate, and if achieved, these people would just find the next thing to moan about. If they could have sports bikes banned from the main roads, and village speed limits dropped to 10mph, they would campaign for it. If they achieved that, what next? Ban mountain bikers 'cos they go too fast too? They just have zero credibility IMO. They are just moaners with nothing better to think about. It gives them something to occupy their time during retirement.
Peak District authority (Shaun Prendegast et al) seems to be doing a good job at taking a unbiased stance , though at the end it seems as though Jim Dixon may be starting to bow to pressure. John Herbert (the guy who was questioning if the TRO investigation was taking place fast enough, then called for a 'review of green lane' policy which is now happening), just shows how important it can be to have one influential voice at the right place at the right time. Unfortunately on that occasion the voice was not for the side most people on this forum would support, and the way the BBC spins it, it seems as if he got his voice heard.
Now this view will be unpopular on this forum! The sections of Chapel Gate shown in the film, and the section that the farmer had videoed where he said he was worried about his walls being knocked down, and the section where the horse was struggling to get his footing... those were totally ripped up! I support the Park Authority in their recommendation and decision to put an experimental TRO on Chapel Gate, that road at least needs time to recover (based upon what was shown in the programme, I haven't ridden it). I don't support closing that lane permanently, and think the track needs strengthening (like the lane where Mike Rhodes said the ford was totally chewed up and it had been surfaced with stone) then re-opened.
The fact that Chapel Gate is subject to a high court appeal, assuming that the BBC showed a fair picture of the state of the lane, doesn't do the pro green lane movement any favours IMO. It makes us look as if we will oppose ANY TRO, regardless of whether it is actually needed or not. It makes us as bad as the OAP NIMBYS. The Peaks Authority didn't recommend that closure to discriminate against us, they recommended based upon environmental impact. We shouldn't be campaigning for the TRO to be lifted so we can make it worse, we should be campaigning for the lane to be strengthened against that environmental impact and re-opened for everyone's use on that basis.
The guys who go out there in their 4x4's and bikes, looking for maximum fun and the muddiest challenge, and aim to get stuck so they can winch each other out, don't do us any favours.
So I don't have to write it again.
Specialone
31-10-11, 04:03 PM
Woah, calm down dear! You seem to be letting your emotions enter this discussion. Firstly I've not mentioned bikes yet, only 4x4s. I agree that ramblers/walkers also cause damage (albeit not to the same extent) and I fully support these issues being addressed as well with the necessary maintenance and controls put in place.
I think it's fair to say they're riding these roads for sport, and the more ruts in the road the better the challenge, so it's in their benefit to ruin the green roads even more.
Pardon?
There is a lot of common sense there in your post Ralph.
EDIT: I don't mean that to sound patronising. It makes sense to portray a good image. As for the documentary, the missus and I were laughing at the cucumber sandwich eating 4x4 fans who couldn't put up an argument for the earth being round even if they had to.
Pardon?
Driving then. I've got riding on the brain.
Red Herring
31-10-11, 11:11 PM
I think any program on emotive subjects like this will always provoke debate amongst some and argument amongst others. The lady filmed declaring that it was impossible to enjoy a quiet peaceful walk along that lane, whilst doing exactly that, pretty much summed up how narrow minded her argument was, and the clip with the Landrover charging through the rutted puddles just about nailed why the 4x4 brigade get so little support.
What most, on both sides, seem to forget is that these roads are just that, roads. You drive up your local high street with the same gay abandon that some off roaders, both two and four wheels, display and see just how you last before getting nicked. Likewise try standing in the middle of a village with your arms out like that chap did to the approaching motorcyclists and see what happens....... We have more than enough rules to ensure all types of roads can be used safely by everybody, we just need people to be sensible about it.
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