Strike day tomorrow!

[MisterTommyH]

So, everywhere I turn I hear about public sector workers striking tomorrow. There seems to be lots of support from other public sector workers, but I haven't heard one word of support from private sector workers.

Any thoughts? Which sector do you work in, and do you support the strikes?

[Kenzie]

Private sector and thank god I don't have kids! I haven't been reading too much into it so not sure if they are upset about pay or pensions this time but surely strikes shouldnt be allowed in hospitals?

[Specialone]

You forgot self employed that thinks striking is nothing but detrimental to the country.

[MisterTommyH]

I'd class self employed as private sector i.e. no employed by the government - but happy to have the option added if anyone knows how to do it.

[Davies]

Damn right I support the strikes and will be striking myself tomorrow. I don't know what the government was expecting to be honest.....freeze people's pay for two years then double their pension contributions (which were revised and agreed on two years ago) and expect them to work longer? Feckers.

And to announce today that pay increases will be capped at 1% for the next 2 years really takes the pi$$ as it means that any public sector worker will effectively be around 25% less well off in 2 years time.

Time to move private :smt039

[yorkie_chris]

I'd class self employed as public sector i.e. no employed by the government - but happy to have the option added if anyone knows how to do it.

You mean private surely?


Reason I am against the strike is it causes so much inconvenience to ordinary people. Like teachers going on strike, it's not the kids parents fault (beyond who they may or may not have voted for I suppose) but those actions will be effectively punishing them by the loss of a days pay, not very fair.

[MisterTommyH]

You mean private surely?




Yup

[Bluefish]

voted wrong, meant to be private sector sgainst, not public :rolleyes:

[Specialone]

Oh fecking woe is me !!!
No pay rise for 2 years, only getting 1%.

Don't like the pension conditions? Don't have one then, it's that simple.

Regular wage, don't have to work too hard, no tax man breathing down your neck, no increased business or material costs, no tight ar5e customers trying to screw you for every penny, forgive me if I don't give much sympathy.

My wife works in the Nhs, is she striking and bitching about things, no, shes grateful she's got a decent job.

Cheeky cnuts at unison said if you're not striking could you donate the days wage to the cause? Feck right off, them cnuts are still getting paid so they can donate.

And breath...

[Stenno]

I'm private sector and back the strikes fully. If I had kids in education I'd also be keeping them at home for the day rather than let them be taught by the scabs not striking.
Thankfully, people are standing up to the government rather than rolling over and taking it on the chin. Public sector workers are being asked to pay more and work longer for less money. The government pushes us all to take out private pensions and is now screwing people over for doing so. It's a joke.

[MisterTommyH]

In case you couldn't tell from the first post, I'm private sector and against the strikes.

People in our company haven't had payrises since about 18 months before public sector workers had a pay freeze. Thats also no bonus, no increase in holiday, and had sick pay reduced to SSP (although that is now back). All this at the same time as having less job security than most public sector workers and having the increased workload because of less staff and more competition. There also seems to be the attitude from the unions that all private sector workers have it good and have caused this just like the bankers.

I can understand why people would want to stop their conditions being changed, but I always thought that for a strike such as this to work it needed widespread public support - from what I've seen / heard this doesn't exist hence the poll (anyone know the ratio of public/private workers in this country?)

Thinking about it, it would be just as interesting to have a poll showing political affiliation vs support of the strikes.

[Kenzie]

I haven't had a pay rise since 2007 AND have had a pay cut in the meantime. Some people should be greatful they have jobs to start with.

[Specialone]

I haven't had a pay rise since 2007 AND have had a pay cut in the meantime. Some people should be greatful they have jobs to start with.

Couldnt agree more and considering on average there's 50 applicants per vacancy, there is plenty of people willing to fill your boots.

[maviczap]

Cheeky cnuts at unison said if you're not striking could you donate the days wage to the cause? Feck right off, them cnuts are still getting paid so they can donate....

If you go on strike your wages get deducted for the strike days.

For some its a lot of money

[dizzyblonde]

I am not in any of those categories.

I'm at home with the kids. Where mums should be IMO.

However, I am fully in favour of the strikes. I do not believe that people should be paying even more into a pension and having to work much longer for a smaller share, with no wage increases etc.

When we had a pension discussion at Willy Wonkas a few years back, I made comment about the fact they were trying to con us into a new 'revised' pension, and that they had 'revised' it five years previous.

They weren't amused at what I was trying to get at.
My mum has a frozen NHS pension, and last year they tried pulling the wool over her eyes with a glossy booklet, in an attempt to get her to change hers for a 'revised' version....which would con her out of a fortune. I told her to tell them to get lost and keep what she had!

[Stenno]

A strike doesn't need any public support, that's the power of forming a Union.
An opinion poll commissioned by the BBC suggests that 61% of people support the public sector strikes on 30 November.

As for your company not giving a payrise for longer, again, why put up with it? All too often we roll over and let companies/governments tickle our bellies rather than put food in our bowls.
Our company wanted a pay freeze, I was even stupid enough to vote in favour for it. Luckily others didn't and I ended up with 2.5% plus £300, and the business didn't have to remortgage.

If the government didn't mismanage schools and hospitals etc and their pensions, it wouldn't be the workers having to suffer for it.

[Specialone]

If you go on strike your wages get deducted for the strike days.

For some its a lot of money

I know that, I was on about full time unison workers.

[maviczap]

I always thought that for a strike such as this to work it needed widespread public support - from what I've seen / heard this doesn't exist hence the poll (anyone know the ratio of public/private workers in this country?).

Depends which Poll you read, there was one in the Daily Star that said 65% were in support of the strike. But that might reflect the readership of the paper.

Can't remember what the % was, but it also blamed Dave for stirring it up and making things worse. From what I've seen, that not far off the mark, but he's used his Ministers for stirring things up.

[maviczap]

I know that, I was on about full time unison workers.

Wasn't clear in your post.

I'm sure they'll be dipping into their pockets :rolleyes:

[MisterTommyH]

Surely if there is no public support then they're just going to p1ss everyone else off - or are they happy to say up your's to everyone else? Private sector is, after all, what makes money for the country and pays corporation tax etc. (Thats not saying I don't appreciate public sector workers, but if the government employed everyone surely it would all go round in an ever decreasing spiral).

As for why put up with it? Because there are numerous other companies in the same industry going bump because of the current situation, and it's a job. Don't fancy applying for any more jobs with 50 applicants for each position.

[krhall]

I need another option, I am a public sector worker who is losing a days money tomorrow, but not because I am striking because my kids school is closed and can't afford to get them looked after a child-minder!

The rest of the PS need to get real, everyone is suffering and we all need to make sacrifices - it isn't nice but do we want to be like Greece?

[Stenno]

As for why put up with it? Because there are numerous other companies in the same industry going bump because of the current situation, and it's a job. Don't fancy applying for any more jobs with 50 applicants for each position.

I agree that there isn't always room for pay increases etc. But Union's are well armed with the facts of how a business is doing and with information from within the same sector.
Union's have to be sensible and build strong relations with the business involved.

As for the public services, it's one thing having pay freezes (reductions based on inflation) but to start toying with pensions is outrageous. If that doesn't get someones back up enough to strike then I don't know what will.

[thefallenangel]

I agree with the strikes. Until the ministers put the cuts on the fat cats in london with millions the rest of us won't follow suit.

If a company director of every bank takes a pay cut of £1million a year thats got to be another 200-300 nurses in work

[flymo]

...rather than let them be taught by the scabs not striking.


Is that kind of insult really necessary? People have a right to strike just as they have a right to go to work. I cant afford to skip my days pay, doesnt mean I dont sympathise with the protest.

[maviczap]

As for the public services, it's one thing having pay freezes (reductions based on inflation) but to start toying with pensions is outrageous. If that doesn't get someones back up enough to strike then I don't know what will.

Which is where the Private Sector went wrong by allowing their pension pots to be raided, so they not worth what they should be

Or was it the Government who allowed it to happen.

[Stenno]

Is that kind of insult really necessary? People have a right to strike just as they have a right to go to work. I cant afford to skip my days pay, doesnt mean I dont sympathise with the protest.

I mainly mean those who join a Union as some kind of insurance policy but won't support the strikes. Or those that aren't Union members but will quite happily take the pay rises and working rights each year that the Unions fight to achieve for their members, whilst slating the Unions.

[Stenno]

Is that kind of insult really necessary? People have a right to strike just as they have a right to go to work. I cant afford to skip my days pay, doesnt mean I dont sympathise with the protest.

However if you can't afford to lose a day's pay, good luck paying increased pension contributions.

Short term pain, long term gain.

[metalmonkey]

Which is where the Private Sector went wrong by allowing their pension pots to be raided, so they not worth what they should be

Or was it the Government who allowed it to happen.

It was Brown who raided the pensions, sold the gold and said were doing fine. What does he care he is loaded it won't affect him.

[flymo]

However if you can't afford to lose a day's pay, good luck paying increased pension contributions.

Short term pain, long term gain.

And I respect that this is a persons individual choice, it should not be forced on anybody. It is my decision if I want to attend work during a strike, I am not a union member for the very reason that I do not wish to strike.

[flymo]

However if you can't afford to lose a day's pay, good luck paying increased pension contributions.

Short term pain, long term gain.

Those of us not in the public sector already have increased pension contributions.

[Kenzie]

Those of us not in the public sector already have increased pension contributions.

I don't have a pension and I'm 28. Something I've been meaning to do!

[flymo]

I don't have a pension and I'm 28. Something I've been meaning to do!

Entirely your choice, but you can bet that if/when you do decide to you will be paying more than many public sector workers are doing.

I'm not saying that it is therefore right that the government is now changing those agreements but just to put into perspective that many of us are already in that boat.

[maviczap]

I don't have a pension and I'm 28. Something I've been meaning to do!

Better to start it sooner rather than later, stop meaning to do it and get one sorted

[Bri w]

Whilst I agree wholeheartedly that it's unfair to change someone's T&C's like this just what is the choice in the current economic climate?

There's a huge shortfall in the Treasury's coffers that means they have to go to the banks for money, or tax people even more. We've already seen in today's reports that the Govt will need to borrow an extra £111 billion.

OK, lets go to the European banks and borrow extra and potentially affect our triple AAA credit rating. Don't forget we already owe more than Greece, Spain, Portugal and Italy but are borrowing at a cheaper rate because of the austerity measures that are in place. We borrow more and interest rates go up. Interest rates go up and private industry struggles even more to find money, and some go bust. More people on the dole = less tax for the Treasury and more money needed for benefits. More bailouts mean the major European powers like Germany and France force a resignation of the Prime Minister and impose an unelected pro-European ex-commisioner just as happened in Greece and Italy onto the British people. Hey Presto, we're all little Germans and French with even less say in what happens in Britain... ask a Greek or Italian if that couldn't happen.

[dizzyblonde]

Better to start it sooner rather than later, stop meaning to do it and get one sorted


Better stuffing the money under the bed in an old sock. Might not be any interest, but at least its a gauranteed save, unless the house burns down. The way pensions are going, there will be SFA by the time most of us have retired.


Funnily enough there was a story like that not so long ago...bloke found old sock in wardrobe with 10k in it:shaking2:

[Specialone]

I wouldnt trust a private pension if it was given to me for free, aint worth the paper their written on imo.

My wifes uncle had a well paid job at an airline and paid a small fortune into his pension, when he cashed it in, it had performed really badly and he lost loads.
So now runs a part time job to supplement his pension payments, he wouldnt have had one if he had the benefit of hindsight.

Get your money in property, not as lucrative as it once was but as a long term investment, there aint many with better returns.

[andrewsmith]

I'm for the strikes as its both my parents that stand to lose out big time from the cuts.

All my Da's pensions are all virtually worthless for the money that he's put in over the years
My mother's only pension is a NHS/ State sector scheme and has to work to 67 to receive it.

If you do some reading to some of the schemes (One of the Teacher schemes springs to mind), quite a lot were renegotiated in 2007-9 and were deemed to be viable (by the Treasury no less) with the calculation done for a raise in the age and increasing wage contributions.

I don't support the wage rises but forward after the Freeze, as I'm just happy to have a job this year. For the record I'm only on £1 p/h more than Minimum wage [Salaried for 35 hr week and I doing closer to 50] doing a Building Manager's job in a large multi-let office (the equivalent job would be £18k- 26k in a council, max in the Private Sector is £22k unless managing places like the Trafford Centre)

[Stenno]

Plus a lot of pensions are linked to stocks & shares rather than hard assets. Business always complain of shortfalls when the stock-market is down and when it's up they take payment holidays on their own contributions. Don't fall for their propaganda.

[andrewsmith]

Whilst I agree wholeheartedly that it's unfair to change someone's T&C's like this just what is the choice in the current economic climate?

There's a huge shortfall in the Treasury's coffers that means they have to go to the banks for money, or tax people even more. We've already seen in today's reports that the Govt will need to borrow an extra £111 billion.

OK, lets go to the European banks and borrow extra and potentially affect our triple AAA credit rating. Don't forget we already owe more than Greece, Spain, Portugal and Italy but are borrowing at a cheaper rate because of the austerity measures that are in place. We borrow more and interest rates go up. Interest rates go up and private industry struggles even more to find money, and some go bust. More people on the dole = less tax for the Treasury and more money needed for benefits. More bailouts mean the major European powers like Germany and France force a resignation of the Prime Minister and impose an unelected pro-European ex-commisioner just as happened in Greece and Italy onto the British people. Hey Presto, we're all little Germans and French with even less say in what happens in Britain... ask a Greek or Italian if that couldn't happen.

Bri, its still the lowest in Western Europe (by GDP).

I've just had a thought, why don't we remove the Golden Goose scheme from Parliament that would offset the cuts proposed to other scheme.
MP in London, the only job in the world where you can get £70k a year for working 40 weeks a year and claim everything but the butler that wipes your **** (no wait you can, its a staffing cost)

[DJFridge]

100% against.

I have a lot of respect for the people who work in the public sector and they are not to blame for the way the system is set up. But the system is wrong and has been since it was set up. I work in the private sector. If the company is successful, our pay increases. If the company is not doing so well, our pay stays where it is. How did we end up with a system where public sector pay effectively goes up in line with inflation, regardless of how well the country is doing? It is very unfortunate that people who work in the public sector now, went in to those jobs with an expectation of salary rises, retirement age and pensions that the country could never afford. Unfortunate because they have been totally misled by politicians and unions for many years.

If you want a Swedish style welfare state and public sector, vote for Swedish style taxes at the next election. Otherwise, accept the same working conditions as the private sector. Going on strike and hurting people who have not had those annual pay increases, can't afford to retire and have naff all in the way of pension provision is not the way to get the country on your side.

We have two kids, both of whom will be at home tomorrow. PITA but I'm sure we'll cope.

Here endeth the rant.

[MisterTommyH]

If you do some reading to some of the schemes (One of the Teacher schemes springs to mind), quite a lot were renegotiated in 2007-9 and were deemed to be viable (by the Treasury no less) with the calculation done for a raise in the age and increasing wage contributions.



Yes, but that was Alaistair Darlings Treasury, the one that left a note to this government saying sorry we've run out of money!

Also, I heard of a head teacher complaining that this change would make teachers work until 65 and it was a hard job. Now I have lots of teacher friends, and I wouldn't do the job, but thats personal choice. There are much harder jobs (both physically and mentally) where people regularly have to work to 65 and beyond. Boo hoo that you have to come in line with everyone else.

[andrewsmith]

Look at a Govt. department the Face Changes but the backroom doesn't.

I wouldn't like to be a teacher at 65 at my old High school (rough as a badgers badger)

[MisterTommyH]

Backroom staff aren't the policy makers though.

And i agree about teaching at 65, but I wouldn't want to be building at 65 either, or any number of other jobs. No one wants to be working at 65, but we've seen what happens to countries that say you can retire at 50 etc...

[Sid Squid]

but I haven't heard one word of support from private sector workers.
Does this surprise you?

A selfish, irresponsible strike that purports to be about public sector pensions, (it isn't anything of the sort), isn't greatly supported by the people that will have to actually pay for those pensions.

Hardly a revelation, is it?

And the support for the strike by union membership is how much?

I hope every public sector worker that doesn't go to work tomorrow fully realises that this is no noble strike, this is an tantrum thrown by a trade union system that no longer has a government in their pocket, union members are simply being expoloited, this action has nothing to do with any benefit to them.

The TUC disgust me. Again.

Union's have to be sensible
This is never going to happen. Ever.

Unions long ago gave up any thoughts of workers rights, they are now self-interested political organisations that expolit their membership as cruelly as any bad boss could ever hope to.

[Biker Biggles]

!00% in favour.Its about standing up for yourself against some very powerful forces.If you dont stand up they will be back for more---and more----and more.You may not win the battle but they at least they know you are not a pushover.Food for thought for them when they want the next bite.
But alls well.We are all in it together.Arent we?

[Dicky Ticker]

I can never work out how withdrawing your labour helps your cause-----The mining industry,which was a national industry tried with a lot more effort than this lot and where are they now?

[Bluefish]

100% against.

I have a lot of respect for the people who work in the public sector and they are not to blame for the way the system is set up. But the system is wrong and has been since it was set up. I work in the private sector. If the company is successful, our pay increases. If the company is not doing so well, our pay stays where it is. How did we end up with a system where public sector pay effectively goes up in line with inflation, regardless of how well the country is doing? It is very unfortunate that people who work in the public sector now, went in to those jobs with an expectation of salary rises, retirement age and pensions that the country could never afford. Unfortunate because they have been totally misled by politicians and unions for many years.

If you want a Swedish style welfare state and public sector, vote for Swedish style taxes at the next election. Otherwise, accept the same working conditions as the private sector. Going on strike and hurting people who have not had those annual pay increases, can't afford to retire and have naff all in the way of pension provision is not the way to get the country on your side.

We have two kids, both of whom will be at home tomorrow. PITA but I'm sure we'll cope.

Here endeth the rant.
I was just going to say the same, lol. Hit the nail on the head there mate :D

[Biker Biggles]

I can never work out how withdrawing your labour helps your cause-----The mining industry,which was a national industry tried with a lot more effort than this lot and where are they now?

Looking back the mining industry died because it became possible to get energy cheaper from gas.Looking a bit short sighted as a policy now but thats what happened in the 80s.The last strike was an attempt to stop that but was doomed in the long run.
A current example would be train drivers.Well paid job and good luck to them,but automation will overtake them sooner rather than later.and the job will go.Strikes will make no difference either way.

[Stenno]

This is never going to happen. Ever.

Unions long ago gave up any thoughts of workers rights, they are now self-interested political organisations that expolit their membership as cruelly as any bad boss could ever hope to.

Not with that attitude no. Hence why I became a Union rep at work in order to add some sense within the business.
We do a lot of fantastic work within the business, between my safety rep and myself I know the work place is a lot safer and happier.

[Stenno]

I can never work out how withdrawing your labour helps your cause-----The mining industry,which was a national industry tried with a lot more effort than this lot and where are they now?

You can hardly compare the current strikes to that of an industry that was dwindling due to cheaper imported fossil fuels or north sea gas. Sadly those strikes were the swansong of a dying trade.

[Stenno]

Looking back the mining industry died because it became possible to get energy cheaper from gas.Looking a bit short sighted as a policy now but thats what happened in the 80s.The last strike was an attempt to stop that but was doomed in the long run.
A current example would be train drivers.Well paid job and good luck to them,but automation will overtake them sooner rather than later.and the job will go.Strikes will make no difference either way.

+1 albeit I think there will always be a role for train-board staff of some sorts for safety reasons.

[MisterTommyH]

Well, at least the roads were clear!

Another issue, if we forget all the temporary inconvenience, is that of successful this WILL result in a tax rise (either direct or indirect) as the government aren't just going to shuffle things around to pay for it (they can't!).

So in the big scheme of things private sector workers will have to pay increase tax so that public sector workers can keep better conditions than them.

(and yes, I know public sector workers pay tax too, but at leas they'll be benefitting from it)

[maviczap]

Well, at least the roads were clear!

Another issue, if we forget all the temporary inconvenience, is that of successful this WILL result in a tax rise (either direct or indirect) as the government aren't just going to shuffle things around to pay for it (they can't!).

So in the big scheme of things private sector workers will have to pay increase tax so that public sector workers can keep better conditions than them.

(and yes, I know public sector workers pay tax too, but at leas they'll be benefitting from it)

Worse than that, with the extra job losses planned, you'll also be paying for Private Sector companies to do the work of that the Public Sector used to do.

As a result maybe they'll be less direct burden on the tax payer, but maybe they'll be a bigger indirect tax burden on everybody?

[Bri w]

A strike; I guess that's where an employee doesn't like what the boss is doing. So rather than a) accept that the boss has the right to change how a business is run, or b) change job, he/she blackmails the boss.

And in this case, as Tommy H posted, it's those in the private sector that will pick up the bill. So take out the public sector workers from the poll above and it looks like there's no a huge amount of support from the private sector.

[Davies]

Oh fecking woe is me !!!
No pay rise for 2 years, only getting 1%.

Don't like the pension conditions? Don't have one then, it's that simple.

Regular wage, don't have to work too hard, no tax man breathing down your neck, no increased business or material costs, no tight ar5e customers trying to screw you for every penny, forgive me if I don't give much sympathy.

My wife works in the Nhs, is she striking and bitching about things, no, shes grateful she's got a decent job.

Cheeky cnuts at unison said if you're not striking could you donate the days wage to the cause? Feck right off, them cnuts are still getting paid so they can donate.

And breath...

Thanks for that, very constructive. Let's see:

1) regular wage, well, you'll get one of them in either a private or public sector permanent job so I don't see your point. If you are self employed then I guess that is your choice.
2) don't have to work too hard do me a favor. I have no idea where you get that from, but I'll forward your opinion that I should work a 9-5 to my boss
3) no tax man breathing down your neck again, public/private sector, if you are self employed then no difference.

I choose to have a pension because I want to be able to live comfortably later in life and have something to show for the work I've done. The country is in trouble and yes we all have to do our bit, but what I object to is the manner in which these changes are being proposed. When you sign up to a pension scheme you agree to certain terms and conditions, and to have those changed and for those changes to be imposed without proper debate is bollock$, hence why I think so many have chosen to strike.

As an example, there was a teacher on the news this morning who was saying that to get the same pension she signed up for, £7500/year which let's face it isn't exactly extravagant, that her contributions would go up by 50% per month and she'd have to work an additional 7 years.....fair deal?

[maviczap]

When you sign up to a pension scheme you agree to certain terms and conditions, and to have those changed and for those changes to be imposed without proper debate is bollock$, hence why I think so many have chosen to strike.

Yep, that's the crux of the whole thing

[timwilky]

I am private sector and after 3 years of no salary increase, cancellation of bonus schemes, withdrawal of company car etc I am about £5,000 per annum worse off than I was 5 years ago. Forget increases in cost of living over that 5 years.

My pension is nowhere near where it was projected to be. I have no choice if I want a comfortable old age I need to increase my payments. My scheme will not permit "early" retirement as it is in deficit and the catch up plan is over 20 years and after yesterdays announcement it looks like I will have to work an extra year to get it. The schemes T&C have changed several time during my membership. It has closed in one form and reopened in another, my schemes death in service is now only 4 times instead of 8 times salary. My payments are now 7.5% and my ill health options are far worse. But I continue my payments (I wonder why) plus have other private policies to cover weak points in my pension scheme.

I have fundamental objections to unions. Whilst I have always worked with them and been open and honest to staff representatives I find them once outside of the business membership to be political conniving animals that are in business of promoting their own interests above that of their membership.

My wife works in the NHS, she should be on strike today. Instead as she had advised her manager she would be available to work, she was rota'd off duty today in order that her clinic could be shut down without staff twiddling their thumbs. so at least she gets payed for today and doesn't need to cross picket lines etc.

[Stingo]

Being one of the great 'fence sitters' of our time, I find it quite interesting to note how some members of the public and private sectors continue to have a pop at each other over this whole issue of pay, pensions and conditions.

What seems to have been missed is that 'something' has happened to divide the population into two large camps who 'seem' politically opposed to each other. They would rather beef about how the grass is greener on the opposing side whilst ignoring what it was/is that has divided everybody in the first place.

Should the population not be all working towards a similar ultimate goal i.e. for the good of the country for example?

It just seems a shame (to me anyway) that people continue to be envious of others with regard to public/private sector issues.

What I see in my work area is the continual erosion of the ability of the public sector to automonously 'get the job done' because the private sector are now employed (in order to reduce costs) in running much of the public sector. This has resulted (in my experience) the need for more barriers to be negotiated by the public sector in order to successfully complete some of the most basic of tasks and has become quite frustrating. I don't blame the private sector for this per se - I just see it as a result of decisions that have been made at a much higher level. For me, the tail is now firmly wagging the dog.

[dizzyblonde]

I choose to have a pension because I want to be able to live comfortably later in life and have something to show for the work I've done.


Wether you work in the private or public sector, you must have the wool firmly pulled over your eyes by the info fed to you every day, if you think that you will live comfortable on a pension later in your life.

I know people who have paid substantial amounts into pensions over many years, who are at retiring age and need to carry on working past it, due to the fact they will be worse off, as all that money they've coughed up, amounts to a small paltry pension that they can't live on.
Thus rendering saving for a pension a pretty useless thing to do with your money.

[Stenno]

Being one of the great 'fence sitters' of our time, I find it quite interesting to note how some members of the public and private sectors continue to have a pop at each other over this whole issue of pay, pensions and conditions.


+1. I was just about to say that thus far a lot of the arguments have been about jealousy. The 'why should you have what I haven't' argument. It reminds me of an org'ers post to an article on the 'monkeysphere' and how we can't relate to other people.

:smt014

[The Idle Biker]

It's strange to me that some who work in the private sector as I do, and some who feel hard done by with all the pension abuse that's gone on, like I do, and some who feel powerless and frustrated in their ability to make an effective plan for retirement, like I do, appear to resent others in the public sector for trying to stick up for themselves and fight for what they believe are their interests.

[maviczap]

+1. I was just about to say that thus far a lot of the arguments have been about jealousy. The 'why should you have what I haven't' argument. It reminds me of an org'ers post to an article on the 'monkeysphere' and how we can't relate to other people. :smt014

I was thinking the same thing, but this is where I have sympathy for the Private Sector in that its very hard for them to change things, as they don't have anything to bargain with.

If you don't like it, you know what you can do would be their employers reaction I guess

[Paul the 6th]

Being self employed and relatively young I still find the whole pensions issue quite alien with regards: paying a shed load of monthly wage away into scheme, then when you retire it pays out around £700/month for example. But then as many are complaining, their pensions aren't reaching anywhere near projected, mainly because some pished up w*nker banker in the city started juggling numbers and making bets with money which wasn't his so then the scheme either devalues massively or goes belly up..

Is it just me that thinks paying regular payments into the bank of mattress in the spare room is a safer more reliable option?

[dizzyblonde]

Is it just me that thinks paying regular payments into the bank of mattress in the spare room is a safer more reliable option?

Think I must have mentioned it somewhere....................


Socks, fill rather nicely with rolled up 20's;)

[timwilky]

I don't think it is jealousy from within the private sector. But a realisation that when your employer says he cannot afford. He may just be telling the truth.

My own employers were bankrupted by dodgy practices within one of our business sectors and the share price fell from about £20 to 20p. Massive sales of assets and request to governments for help. The British Government said no. Whereas the French said No job losses in France. Guess where the job losses hit. 3 years later the French government made a profit on selling us back into the private sector. During this time we were pruned. Salaries and terms and conditions renegotiated. You had no choice you accept or find a new employer who can afford you.

I therefore think that the private sector employees look at this strike thinking the public sector has not moved on from the 70s. The head in the sand attitude of union leaders who think they can bring down or change a government by industrial action. Did the miners strike etc not teach them anything. I am ex Leyland and seen strikes because it is a nice day for fishing. What happened to Leyland?

Time for people to grow up, pick up the toys and dummies and talk.

[Paul the 6th]

Exactly, on a serious note it's paper currency, risk free in relation to the markets & governments (unless the sterling collapses but we'd all have bigger things to worry about if that happened), you can take a payment break if you fall on hard times and you can happily fit a fire safe & not tell anyone about it so security isn't an issue..


.... or you could give a load of your money to a company who's gonna try & win roulette with it and then give some of the winnings back to you?
Hmm.

[dizzyblonde]

.... or you could give a load of your money to a company who's gonna try & win roulette with it and then give some of the winnings back to you?
Hmm.

This is basically why I didn't take a pension with the ex employer as theyd already boogered up in the previous five years and basically said we had to cough up for the shortfall....to which I said to the representative...so we'll see you back here in five years when you feck up again? The management weren't overly impressed with my remarks, but I bet they ain't too happy now cause everything I said is here today!!
It may be in the private sector, but its no different in the public either.....kinda glad I didn't get pushed into taking out their bullplop pension....the rubbish that they tried to glorify it with was rediculous!

[Davies]

Wether you work in the private or public sector, you must have the wool firmly pulled over your eyes by the info fed to you every day, if you think that you will live comfortable on a pension later in your life.

I know people who have paid substantial amounts into pensions over many years, who are at retiring age and need to carry on working past it, due to the fact they will be worse off, as all that money they've coughed up, amounts to a small paltry pension that they can't live on.
Thus rendering saving for a pension a pretty useless thing to do with your money.

Thank you for your concern but I can assure you that my eyes are wide open. I'm not naive enough to think that only a pension will support me later in life and that the only relatively good investment for the future is property. I am building now at a young age to live the life I want later on. I joined the public sector over 10 years ago and was lucky to be offered a good pension so I took it up as soon as I started working........hence the reason why I'm concerned about protecting it as much as I can.

[Owenski]

100% against.
As Tim mentioned, I'm in a similar postition not only have I not had the project increases for the last 4 years, not only have I had zero increases, I've acutally had a 20% pay cut.
If you couple that with the lack of bunus im nearly £10,000 a year lower than it would have been expected to be by now and im sure Tim would agree - WE'RE THE LUCKY ONES!!!

The wifes a teacher and a member of the NUC so trust me we've had this discussion in depth in recent times.

Before her dummy has been spat out it usually goes along the lines of:
Wife: Our pays are been frozen - Me: I've lost 20% of my initial salary its also not moved since 2007, and any bonus scheme has been scrapped.

Wife: Our Pension Contribution is going up - Me: Ours has long since been scrapped along with our private health cover

Wife: Our payouts are coming down - Me: I'll get no payouts and I've lost whats already been invested.

Wife: Im expected to work longer now before I retire - Me: Im 26, I'll be 70 before (and if) I can afford to retire.

It usually goes quite around the point I hit her with the following monolouge.
I know im fecking lucky to still have a job, I work in construction - the UK largest industry and the first to feel any economical climate shift. I've seen countless collegues and contacts loose thier jobs over the last 5 years. But again, do I moan about my lack of salary increase, do I moan about my scrapped schemes, do I moan about no longer getting bonus'... do I feck! Im realistic and know that Im one of the lucky ones.

You lot striking and thinking its for a good cause need to spend today in the job centre asking the people there what they used to earn 5 years ago and in what job they earnt it. Get a grip of yourselves and understand everyone else is making huge sacrifices to survive in these cash strapped times, IMO its actually extremely selfish of you not to happily accept the cuts if they preserve your jobs and give the economy a chance of bouncing back, especially as those around you have been suffering the same fate for nearly 5years now.

[Stenno]

...

The wifes a teacher and a member of the NUC so trust me we've had this discussion in depth in recent times.

Before her dummy has been spat out it usually goes along the lines of:
....
It usually goes quite around the point I hit her with the following monolouge. ....

Wow, she's a lucky woman to have such a supporting husband!
The government openly says that the public sector has to help pay for the losses made by the banks which they govern and allowed to gamble our futures away.
Your wife undoubtedly studied hard, became a teacher which in itself is a difficult but crucial role in society. She signed a contract and up to a pension scheme which she has paid money into. She's kept her end of the bargain. And now the government turns round to her and says, sorry, due to our mishandling of the country and the bankers, we want to move the goal posts now. We want you to pay more and work longer, for less. Win.

If the strikes don't work, let's all hope your school of thought is added to the curriculum so that our children are all taught to roll over and die whenever the government barks.

[Bri w]

It's strange to me that some who work in the private sector as I do, and some who feel hard done by with all the pension abuse that's gone on, like I do, and some who feel powerless and frustrated in their ability to make an effective plan for retirement, like I do, appear to resent others in the public sector for trying to stick up for themselves and fight for what they believe are their interests.

My resentment, if it is that, is the fact that is I'll be picking up part of the tab. When the public sector goes on strike just who does it affect at the time and who picks up the bill later?

Apparently, if the media is to be believed, almost £300 of my Council Tax goes towards local govt pensions. Why am I funding a pension for someone else that is a better pension than the one I'm funding for myself? I work in a job that's mirrored in the public sector, and I'm on a comparable wage. Paying towards their salary I don't have a problem with but I'm paying my own pension contributions and a decent chunk of their's... tht's where my resentment lies.

[dizzyblonde]

Its all a ploy for worldwide mass slavery.

Look at the state of affairs in all our EU crippled countries right now....what are the public striking for, rioting for and showing their disgust at their goverments for?

tax hikes, pension deficits, no pay rises......anyone see a pattern here?



Of course it can't be called slavery, as people are negotiating packages suitable for all....suitable for who I may ask......its not for the likes of the hard working people amongst us, be it private, public. Its only suitable for those who have wacking great big salaries.

[Sally]

Has anyone one got actual figures of what's happening here?

I am reading so much opinions that I don't actually know what's fact.

Amount of increased hours?
Cost of payment increases?

Also private sector against the strikes.

[MisterTommyH]

I don't think it is jealousy from within the private sector. But a realisation that when your employer says he cannot afford. He may just be telling the truth.

My own employers were bankrupted by dodgy practices within one of our business sectors and the share price fell from about £20 to 20p. Massive sales of assets and request to governments for help. The British Government said no. Whereas the French said No job losses in France. Guess where the job losses hit. 3 years later the French government made a profit on selling us back into the private sector. During this time we were pruned. Salaries and terms and conditions renegotiated. You had no choice you accept or find a new employer who can afford you.

I therefore think that the private sector employees look at this strike thinking the public sector has not moved on from the 70s. The head in the sand attitude of union leaders who think they can bring down or change a government by industrial action. Did the miners strike etc not teach them anything. I am ex Leyland and seen strikes because it is a nice day for fishing. What happened to Leyland?

Time for people to grow up, pick up the toys and dummies and talk.


+1 Not jealousy, but realism. I wouldn't want to work in the public sector because of the bureacracy (sp?). But, irrespective of what has been signed and agreed to, there has to be a realisation that the country cannot afford the current spending.

We've already had almost two years of the unions saying 'you can't cut that' to everthing that has been cut - well I'm sorry but it has to come from somewhere.

The reason I find this to be so split down public / private lines is that private workers have already had this, and have the realism to accept that if they forced payrises it could endanger the company and many jobs (hence there have been no big industrial strikes despite the resuctions/ 2 or 3 day working weeks imposed etc). The public workers have always been under the protective banner of the government, who will always pay out,, won't go bump etc. Well this time it's the government that IS is trouble. When your employer is in trouble you have to roll with the punches so that the company can survive.

As I've said before, i understand why they are miffed, but there doesn't seem to be an appreciation of the wider situation from the Unions.

Fo example, various friends who are public workers have argued long and hard to get me to see their point of view, determined that I couldn't see it because I didn't understand (rather than choosing to disagree). But when I point out that it's been that way in industry for a while, where there is not government safety net, and often no union, their attitude is 'well thats your problem for being in that industry then'. Why should I support their cause, when it will eventually be to my detriment - especially when the attitude as a whole doesn't support my cause.

[Owenski]

Would it make me a better husband to stand there and lie to her? or am I just meant to forget I've got principals of my own? I'll support her principals when I agree with them. Tell me Im wrong.

So if the government are openly saying it, does that not suggest its sort of important? Pretend for a minute teh government roll over and NUC get a 100% settlement in their favour. Does that erase the cashflow problem? Does it feck, so what will they do to balance the books? Either layoff more workers or tax those who still are.

You must be reading from the same fluffy cloud NUC propaganda that she does, your argument has a focus just as narrow as hers.
have I not invested time and money in Uni courses?
Have I not been trained and worked hard to get where I am?
The paths which led us to our careers are subjective and as such irrelevent to the discussion.

The elements in question are:
Has she had a pay cut. Nope
has her pay since been frozen for 4 years. Nope
Has she lost all previous pension investmet. Nope
Have her benifit schemes been removed. Nope

But the punch line is I dont pi55 and moan about my situation, I just get on with my job and do my best to make damn sure Im not the next one in job centre ques because thats how it is in the private sector.

[Owenski]

Has anyone one got actual figures of what's happening here?

I am reading so much opinions that I don't actually know what's fact.

Amount of increased hours?
Cost of payment increases?

Also private sector against the strikes.

Its scary reading Sal but I do genuinely have the spreadsheets to show income/outcome calcs for home.
It shows the contributions both me and my wife are required to pay in order to balance the account by the end of the month.

The scary reading is that it shows how our combined contribution has roughly been required to rise by £50 every 6months over the last 4 years.

It doesnt however show how my salary took a 20% cut when I got reduced to 4 day working weeks,
nor does it show how my salaray stayed static when I returned to a 5 day working week.
Nor does it show I had to sell my car as I couldnt afford to insure bike and car,
Nor does it show I had to sell my bike to buy one cheaper to run/maintain

We're in hard times and we've all to make sacrifices in order to get through it. This is the first pinch those on strike are feeling and they're crying about it.

[Sally]

Its scary reading Sal but I do genuinely have the spreadsheets to show income/outcome calcs for home.
It shows the contributions both me and my wife are required to pay in order to balance the account by the end of the month.

The scary reading is that it shows how our combined contribution has roughly been required to rise by £50 every 6months over the last 4 years.

It doesnt however show how my salary took a 20% cut when I got reduced to 4 day working weeks,
nor does it show how my salaray stayed static when I returned to a 5 day working week.
Nor does it show I had to sell my car as I couldnt afford to insure bike and car,
Nor does it show I had to sell my bike to buy one cheaper to run/maintain

Sorry lad, I meant the figures about which these strikers are striking against?

[maviczap]

Being self employed and relatively young I still find the whole pensions issue quite alien with regards: paying a shed load of monthly wage away into scheme, then when you retire it pays out around £700/month for example. But then as many are complaining, their pensions aren't reaching anywhere near projected, mainly because some pished up w*nker banker in the city started juggling numbers and making bets with money which wasn't his so then the scheme either devalues massively or goes belly up..

Is it just me that thinks paying regular payments into the bank of mattress in the spare room is a safer more reliable option?

Gold, buy gold, as its been the most consistently safe place for your money.

Especially when economic times are tough.

Don't stick it in the mattress

[Owenski]

Gold, buy gold, as its been the most consistently safe place for your money.

Especially when economic times are tough.

Don't stick it in the mattress

Unless its a matress made of gold ;)

[maviczap]

Unless its a matress made of gold ;)

Bleedy uncomfortable

Otherwise bricks and mortar is another option to invest in

Shares in Greek, Spanish & Italian banks aren't a safe haven IMHO :albino:

[Owenski]

Sorry lad, I meant the figures about which these strikers are striking against?

Lol ok
not those facts/figures exactly but still interetesting reading, taken from a friends facebook. He works for government but I dont know if that has any baring on the origin of these figures.

"Here are a few facts, which I found surprising given that the country’s going to lose a day of education for its young people tomorrow and cost the UK economy somewhere around £300m.

Turnout (i.e. cared enough to vote on the strike action) by Union members of those unions which are encouraging ALL members to strike tomorrow.

Unison – 29%
Unite – 31%
GMB – 33%
PCS 31%
NUT 41%
NASUWT: - 40%
UCATT – 27%"

Wow they all so clearly care.

[Bri w]

Some intersting figures just quoted on TV.

Average public sector wage, £28,000.
Average private sector wage, £27,000.

And having worked in the public sector I know how good the pension is compared to the one I will be getting from my private sector job.

Frightened & Vulnerable.

So what does this strike mean to me at this minute?

I had a heart attack just short of two weeks ago. This morning at around 11am the chest & arm pains start again. Thankfully the GTN spray calms the Angina attack. But for half an hour my fear was if I call an ambulance will there be enough operating to get to me in time. And when I get to hospital will the right staff be there or are they sat at home?

What sympathy do I have for those who are putting me, and many like me around the country, in danger?

[dizzyblonde]

Gold, buy gold, as its been the most consistently safe place for your money.

Especially when economic times are tough.

Don't stick it in the mattress

You should have advised GB before he got rid of the UKs pile;)

Did you know the value of silver has gone up 900% or something rediculous?

[maviczap]

You should have advised GB before he got rid of the UKs pile;)

Did you know the value of silver has gone up 900% or something rediculous?


Yes, loads of people were selling their family silver, so in years to come there won't be much in the antique market. I think the bubble may have burst on silver at the mo?

A mate told me that Screwfix were doing an offer on copper pipe that was so crazy, that it was worth buying as much as you could and then taking it straight to a scrap dealer, as you'd come out with a profit :confused: Crazy

[EssexDave]

The new pension deal for people who have joined the civil service recently is merely a pay cut.
Why should I have to pay it? Because that is preferable to living in a country such as Greece where they have been destroyed by excessive public spending for years upon years and have ended up as they are now. Some public sector workers taking 25% pay cuts. My pay cut equates to around 1% of earnings. Yes there is a pay freeze and in real terms my earnings are worth about 10% less than this time last year.

However, I should make it clear my personal circumstances mean that whilst I have less disposable income, I do not pay a mortgage or have kids (I live with parents) and so in the grand scheme of things, I am fairly safe.

I can completely understand that strike action taken by some of my colleagues but certainly do not agree with it.

The private sector have been laying off workers, forcing pay cuts/redundancies/pay freezes for the last 4 years and the civil service must do their part to ensure that this is not something that will ruin our country.

Just to clarify as well, unlike traditional pensions where a pension fund will buy you an investment and depending on how that investment does will depend on how much your pension pot grows by.
In the government pension, you are guaranteed something depending on when you joined. Those who joined a long time ago can be on final salary pensions and can retire earning as much as they did in post, at the age of 60, and do not have to pay anything. (So long as they work for 40 years on that scheme)

Mine is an average salary scheme, I pay around £60pm for my pension (tax free) and this will get me after 30 years the same as I earn currently.

There is no money put aside, the government does not save for civil service pensions it merely comes out of the 'government pot' e.g all money realised from tax (including road tax), NI etc everything.

I am not happy at taking a pay cut, but needs must. I'd rather be worse off in a country performing well, than be well off in a country that has turned to **** with riots everywhere and inflation at 150%

[Owenski]

Yes, loads of people were selling their family silver, so in years to come there won't be much in the antique market. I think the bubble may have burst on silver at the mo?

A mate told me that Screwfix were doing an offer on copper pipe that was so crazy, that it was worth buying as much as you could and then taking it straight to a scrap dealer, as you'd come out with a profit :confused: Crazy

+1
I knew people doing it.
They were making around £10 on every £60 spent.

[dizzyblonde]

A mate told me that Screwfix were doing an offer on copper pipe that was so crazy, that it was worth buying as much as you could and then taking it straight to a scrap dealer, as you'd come out with a profit :confused: Crazy
Thats pretty funny actually:p The price of scrap has gone up too!
The local pikey with a white van comes round here regularly now. Next door keeps telling him he can't have his spare car bonnet, that he has under his window then last week while he wasn't in...the fecker nicked it!!

Sign of the times, the common man is so skint he has to cash in all his silver, all his gold, and all his scrap, right down to someone elses car bonnet!

Thankfully i haven't been desperate to get rid of my gold mountain for a short term cash relief.........not thatI have a mountain of it, its more like a molehill!

I reckon its another propaganda technique...price of precious stuff going up, get you to sell it, then you are still skint as not only do you have no pension, you have no family jewels to fall back on to make you rich either! keep the poor man down, never let him rise above his station in society!!!

[Sir Trev]

I'd rather be worse off in a country performing well, than be well off in a country that has turned to **** with riots everywhere and inflation at 150%

Change the "performing well" to "that lives within it's means and avoids bankruptcy" and you have it bang on. You and I cannot keep borrowing to fund a lifestyle and neither can the country.

You cannot borrow your way out unless there is a market for what you produce. As most of our country's "customers" are in the same boat we cannot expand to get out of this hole, we can only save our way out. It is not rocket science and I'm constantly amazed at how many people cannot see this.

[Paul the 6th]

My f**king printer has gone on strike today, Sage Line 50 is still discussing what to do with the rep as it keeps stopping work and the kettle has buggered off christmas shopping..

Owenski, email sent re: decking

[andrewsmith]

My f**king printer has gone on strike today, Sage Line 50 is still discussing what to do with the rep as it keeps stopping work and the kettle has buggered off christmas shopping..

Owenski, email sent re: decking

Hahaha

I wish my tenant had went on strike instead of my entire local PC network.

[arc123]

lol at all of the private sector workers crying about this.

"my conditions are sh1te, so I want public sector conditions to be sh1te too"

waaa waaa waaa.

Taking this approach is just the race to the bottom of the barrel to see who can be worst off first.

[Stenno]

My bank rang me this morning and asked me if, despite me being on a fixed mortgage, whether I would mind paying an extra 2% and for five years longer. I said I wasn't happy but in these tough times, we all have to pay a price.

[arc123]

My bank rang me this morning and asked me if, despite me being on a fixed mortgage, whether I would mind paying an extra 2% and for five years longer. I said I wasn't happy but in these tough times, we all have to pay a price.

haha. better bend over and take it then. And i'll support this because my bank did that to me, so why should you be any different?

[Paul the 6th]

My bank rang me this morning and asked me if, despite me being on a fixed mortgage, whether I would mind paying an extra 2% and for five years longer. I said I wasn't happy but in these tough times, we all have to pay a price.

Did you say yes?

[SoulKiss]

lol at all of the private sector workers crying about this.

"my conditions are sh1te, so I want public sector conditions to be sh1te too"

waaa waaa waaa.

Taking this approach is just the race to the bottom of the barrel to see who can be worst off first.

No, its more "We have been putting up with this kind of rubbish for years (drops in pay/no payrise, changes in terms and conditions) so now its your turn, shut up and quit whining"

[arc123]

No, its more "We have been putting up with this kind of rubbish for years (drops in pay/no payrise, changes in terms and conditions) so now its your turn, shut up and quit whining"

As I said, race to the bottom of the barrel. maybe a better idea would be to stand up for your own contracts rather then expect public workers to bend over and take it the same way you have.

[Owenski]

lol at all of the private sector workers crying about this.

"my conditions are sh1te, so I want public sector conditions to be sh1te too"

waaa waaa waaa.

Taking this approach is just the race to the bottom of the barrel to see who can be worst off first.

My bank rang me this morning and asked me if, despite me being on a fixed mortgage, whether I would mind paying an extra 2% and for five years longer. I said I wasn't happy but in these tough times, we all have to pay a price.

You both want new dummies or you just gonna pick those 2 up?

I should point out that the new dummies will have to be bought by yourselves because we're too skint now after paying for you lot to take the day off.

How many of you actually stood on the picket lines from 9 until 5 today?

[SoulKiss]

As I said, race to the bottom of the barrel. maybe a better idea would be to stand up for your own contracts rather then expect public workers to bend over and take it the same way you have.

Or maybe its being able to see the reality of the situation, ie the country is screwed unless we stop spending money?

Maybe the reality is that the Public Sector Ts&Cs were always way too generous, it just took the current crisis and years of running it to show it up?

[MisterTommyH]

Or maybe it's got nothing to do with wanting you to have crap conditions, but not wanting to have to pay for the inevitable tax rise to cover what you want?

As said above realism.

And 'lol' at public sector workers 'crying' about thei conditions so I'm going to stamp my feet and inconvenience everyone for a day.

I haven't seen anyone say I want your conditions to be bad just because ours our - but some people seem to be able to see the wider situation of the economy and country as a whole rather than how it affects 'me'.

[Biker Biggles]

Accurate figures for the various schemes are hard to come by,with the teachers asking for for an audit of their scheme for the last six months.The government refused to value the scheme making meaningful negotiations difficult.
One figure I have seen is that the NHS scheme which was renegotiated only three years ago currently contributes a surplus to the exchequer of some £2 billion,and will rise to £3 billion after the current contribution rises are implemented.Im sure some other schemes have not been updated and are not "solvent" but as in any war the first casualty is truth.

One thought about unions,the race to the bottom and private sector woes------
Perhaps workers in the private sector should rethink the habits of the last thirty years and join unions like they used to.Whatever the rights and wrongs of any particular issue you will be screwed over as an individual in a spat with a corporate body when negotiating pay and conditions.Its a power relationship and most individuals have very little power unless they band together in some way.Life isnt fair,and you need to look after your interests as best you can.Rest assured the employers will.