yay...David Cameron Saves Britain.

[BigBaddad]

At last a politician with balls.http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-16104275

[Specialone]

At last a politician with balls.

+1

I've just watched his speech and it just confirmed he is the right man for the job IMO.
One eyed brown would've just bent over and took it just to try and be popular.


I wonder if we didn't join all those years ago where we'd be now, population would be smaller that's for sure.

[Drew Carey]

Some of the comments on the BBC page are hilarious.

I'm sorry, but people who think that "we should be producing our way out of ruin - not financing our way out" need a reality check.

As an economy - long gone are the days where we can mass produce items to export - and I believe that it will be almost impossible for us to become globally competetive on that front again.

I can totally understand why Cameron has said no - like it or not, the financial business is too important to the British economy to let it fail. Giving up control of that to Europe would have been far far worse. We would have ended up becoming uncompetetive as new rules, levies etc are applied. Banks would pull the plug in the UK and up ship and base all operations in America or even countries like China / Russia.

In turn, the economy would be cast into an even bigger black hole than it is already in. So I say well done Mr Cameron - now lets focus on the more important markets - China!!!!

[Bri w]

Well, I'll go to the foot of our stairs backwards.

After years of listening to Labour politicians making all the right noises then rolling over and letting the EU tickle their tummies I was expecting another capitulation. Stunned.

[dizzyblonde]

So.....he does have a spine!

Wonder if it was hidden under the table giving him pointer cards?:D

That did make me giggle...John Major didn't know what to do with the Euro 20 years ago, so hid an aid under the table to hand him notes:laughat:



Whateve happens next, Britain will get a rough time anyway, theres no getting out if it, even if distanced fromm the Euro.

[Reeder]

I think we should close our borders and interbreed.

[robh539]

I think we should close our borders and interbreed.

Only you would ;)

Im Glad he did this, i was fearing for the worse. Like drew as posted it would off been the start of the end for us. Labour would of rolled over and let us go down with the Euro. We have a chance of getting sorted now, although i cant see Europe being to kind to us in the future but hey-ho.

[punyXpress]

" a requirement to submit their national budgets to the European Commission, which will have the power to request that they be revised "

For how many years have the EC's accounts not been signed off by the auditors?

[Drew Carey]

To be honest - if things are run correctly - then this could lead to the UK becoming great again.

I know that a lot of people bemoan banks etc - but they are critical to our economy. If the Eurozone group impose sanctions on each other for bad management etc - it wouldn't suprise me to see more European based subsidiaries of global banks closing European offices and consolidating it into their UK offices - leading to more income etc into our economy.

With regards to other parts of Europe that effects us - it will remain unchanged. As Cameron will simply Veto any changes at the EU if the Eurozone tries to change the EU in any way.

[Amadeus]

I know that a lot of people bemoan banks etc - but they are critical to our economy.

I wouldn't disagree with that, but it's also the banks that have got us into the position we're in. They've shown they can't, or won't, self-regulate.

[Bri w]

I wouldn't disagree with that, but it's also the banks that have got us into the position we're in. They've shown they can't, or won't, self-regulate.

Just playing Devil's advocate.

Who deregulated the banks and who forced individuals to take on loans they couldn't afford - thinking of the toxic subprime market?

[robh539]

I wouldn't disagree with that, but it's also the banks that have got us into the position we're in. They've shown they can't, or won't, self-regulate.

Yes they did but it the goverments, us etc also allowed they to get into that situation.

Drew that was my thought about more business coming here and boosting the uk. The Eurozone will become a bigger nightmare than now for sure.

[Biker Biggles]

I wouldn't disagree with that, but it's also the banks that have got us into the position we're in. They've shown they can't, or won't, self-regulate.
Ah.The reality check after last nights euphoria:D
I dont know if Cameron has balls or wanted to use the veto,but he did what he did because he had no choice.His own party would sack him if he agreed to the Germans demands whether they were right or wrong,good or bad.
What the Germans want is a Europe wide Tobin tax on bank transactions,and tighter regulation of banks generally.Despite everything that has happened over the last four years across the western worlds banking system we seem to think that controlling the banks is a bad idea.Almost no one else agrees,not in Europe anyway.The Yanks might agree with us,but they are in as bad a state themselves,while the Chinese laugh all the way to the errrr bank.
As for Cameron doing the right thing rather than making himself popular,I think the straw poll on here shows he has made himself very popular,bordering on the populist?;)

[Amadeus]

Bri/Rob - indeed, they were allowed to get into that position.
Personally, I don't think that it was the wrong decision at the time (and without getting political, Labour obviously didn't either for a long time). However, as the banks are not willing to regulate themselves, surely something has to be done about it? But by doing so, it may make finance in the UK less attractive unless it's all done in the same way (I suppose in a way a bit like banning smoking in pubs which has only worked because all pubs had to follwo the same rules).
One thing that bothers me is people who have savings/pensions/whatever in a bank and it folds and it's all gone. I'd be pretty gutted if I'd invested cautiously for my working life and then found I was going to be on state pension due to an individual bankers greed.

Any structure like Europe where there is a veto means it's actually rather weaker (consider the UN for example); unless Europe is one, I can't see a single currency ever working. If that is true, then Cameron certainly did the right thing.

I can't help thinking as well that we're unlikely to come up with a solution - after all, a bike forum probably wouldn't be the first place people would come to if they wanted financial advice... :-)

[Dicky Ticker]

The 4th Reich have had a spoke put in their wheel again by Britain being unwilling to capitulate.
Although it may bring even more hardship I honestly think that Britain would be better off as an EFTA country than being a second rate EU member
At least it would be able to restore the immigration and control its own Fiscal and and legal policies without going cap in hand and having to fight to keep our nationality which as been eroded by policies made by the EU.

Regarding bringing more hardship,this could be eased by investing the contribution we make to the EU being used to benefit reinvestment in industry be it construction or manufacturing and infrastructure.

Perhaps I am blinkered in my thinking but when I look at Switzerland and its status,comparing it with ours I wonder how wrong I am, and they are slap bang in the middle of Europe,we are an island.

[Drew Carey]

I wouldn't disagree with that, but it's also the banks that have got us into the position we're in. They've shown they can't, or won't, self-regulate.

Lol....no-one has been forced to borrow money etc.

I agree, some of the products previously created were reckless. But also - if you leave a private company to do as is - then they will do all they can to make money. All banks worked within the rules set by Govts. If people start labeling banks unethical as the media do - then actually - it is the govts that also need to take that to heart also.

Also, banks have started self regulating - but because it is not in the medias interest it is not reported. The products currently being pushed in all banks now are safer Listed Derivatives - rather than the OTC Derivatives that were traded in such massive volumes previously.

Plus we are seeing banks offer clients services such as Asset Segregation so that assets are kept safe if the banks go under. This is all being done within investment banks now off their own back - because its what big clients want.

You may have guessed I work for an investment bank - oh and no......we don't get big bonuses....another miss-conception......we employ over 80k people at the bank I work for, and of these approx 1% get bonuses ie Front Office. People often forget that ordinary people like me and my collegues working in "middle" office don't get a cent extra.

[Amadeus]

His own party would sack him

Personally (and may be the idealist in me here), I believe he should do what is for the good of the country and if his party sack him for it, so be it.
I always try to do what's best for the company I work for, and I've been shafted regularly for doing so.

[Amadeus]

Lol....no-one has been forced to borrow money etc.

I'm sure you don't mean to be patronising (and I *really* hope that doesn't come across badly) but you're obviously a bright bloke doing such a job. However, there are a lot of other people out there who are not as able as you and if they're offered something cheap, they'll take it.
A friend of my wife had a boyf who didn't understand that credit cards had to be paid back for example. My nephew is autistic and he doesn't really understand some things that seem obvious to most of us. It's not their fault, it's just life, and surely us more fortunate people should have the decency to protect them where posible?

[The Idle Biker]

Just playing Devil's advocate.

Who deregulated the banks and who forced individuals to take on loans they couldn't afford - thinking of the toxic subprime market?

Citibank started the ball rolling in the Clinton era. Clinton was adamant that the financial and retail side of banking should remain separate under the Glass - Steagal act passed after the first Wall Street Crash. Citibank called Clintons bluff and went ahead despite the fact it was illegal and began using public money for risky investments. The rest of the Investments banks followed and the Banks created a whole whirlpool of imaginary trading where individuals and corporations got rich on the foundation of false money and earning potential.

A lot of this was built on the American mortgage market where Banks offered ludicrously attractive deals to people who were in no position to pay them off. The whole Trading of these mortgages, on the repayment potential of these mortgages got Traded and Cut up and sliced and diced into a multitude of complex packages, and when the mortgages defaulted.......well Lehmans happened and all the rest of the Banks went...oh crap what happened there......and we all ended up bailing RBS and others.

My business relies on the Citys wealth and prosperity for its success, if the City fails I fail. However I have absolutely no faith that the Banks will self regulate responsibly, what safeguards they are putting in place now is just paying lip service and as we know the Governments can be even less responsible when it comes to managing economies.

The Banks are pulling Cameron's strings just like they did Browns and every PM before that.

[punyXpress]

From Amadeus: " One thing that bothers me is people who have savings/pensions/whatever in a bank and it folds and it's all gone. I'd be pretty gutted if I'd invested cautiously for my working life and then found I was going to be on state pension due to an individual bankers greed. "
Shouldn't that read Gordon Brown's

[Amadeus]

Shouldn't that read Gordon Brown's

No, GB didn't directly benefit from dodgy practices; individual bankers did/do.
Of course, GB isn't without blame here but that's not the point I was making.
Or have I missed your point?

[punyXpress]

No - you got it in one!

[Bri w]

No, GB didn't directly benefit from dodgy practices; individual bankers did/do.
Of course, GB isn't without blame here but that's not the point I was making.
Or have I missed your point?

Gordon Brown's raid on pension investments was a disgrace - and being a U-rated site I best not say what I think of him...

[Amadeus]

Indeed, it's funny how he was considered one of the great chancellors for many years but over time more and more has come out about him and now he's considered pretty well irrelevant.
(actually, I'm not sure that's true - it would absolve him of all blame which would clearly be wrong.)

[The Idle Biker]

FEVERED Tories are to have the purpose of the crucial Euro summit explained to them as slowly as it takes.

As cabinet ministers and backbenchers demanded David Cameron defend the UK from things they have just made up while at the same time warning Britain could become isolated in exactly the way they have always dreamed of, specialists have been brought in with picture books and a guitar.

Professor Henry Brubaker, from the Institute for Studies, said: "This. Summit. Is. About. Pre-vent-ing. A. Mass. Default. Which. Will. Ruin. Ab-so-lute-ly. Ev-ery-thing."

The professor then asked the angry Tories to turn to the next page where they will see a picture of the House of Commons on fire.

Leaning over Iain Duncan Smith, he added: "And. This. Summit. Is. Not. About. Making. It. Easier. For. British. Com-pan-ies. To. Sack. People. Or. Force. New. Taxes. On. The. City. Of. London.

"It. Is. About. Drawing. Up. Measures. To. Ensure. Sta-bil-ity. And. Fiscal. Disc-i-pline. In. The. Euro-zone.

"Now, everyone, repeat after me - Britain. Is. Not. In. The. Euro-zone."

His bottom lip trembling, London mayor Boris Johson said: "But... but... but if we don't make the summit about things that it's not about then we'll never be able to have nice things ever again."

But Professor Brubaker said: "It's okay Boris, we can have another summit about whatever you like just as soon as you've learned how to go to the toilet on your own."

He added: "Now, let's all sing a happy song about what will happen to British exports when the UK leaves the single market.

[Biker Biggles]

Did they have it all explained twice?
I know they are dim but------

[The Idle Biker]

oops, ooower post deleted.

[Bibio]

i think the people of the UK are struggling to realise that we don't actually own anything any more.

i know of 2 banks we still own, BOE and RBS

i know of one power company we still own, Scottish Hydro

i know of 1 water company we still own, Scottish water

so where does that leave us if the owners of the rest of the banks, power and utility companies decide to pull the plug?

personally i think Cameron is doing the wrong thing. you either join a club or not. i'm sick of hearing ''in Britain's best interests'' what Britain!!!

[dizzyblonde]

But you can't have a club within a club, its just not cricket ;)

[timwilky]

OK, I have to admit I do not know what the purpose of this summit was about. I know from the press that it was supposed to be about setting the financial rules and governance to enable a stable euro land. Bit of shutting stable doors after the horse has bolted.

So, were these rules going to be applied to the UK that is not part of euroland? or were they to be applied as we are led to believe to eec members and therefore rules designed to "protect" the euro would be applied to non euro countries?

I think it a bit rich that an organisation that has wrecked their own currency though their own financial incompetence, should then seek to apply taxes on Britain to stabilise somebody elses currency.

[Drew Carey]

i think the people of the UK are struggling to realise that we don't actually own anything any more.

i know of 2 banks we still own, BOE and RBS

i know of one power company we still own, Scottish Hydro

i know of 1 water company we still own, Scottish water

so where does that leave us if the owners of the rest of the banks, power and utility companies decide to pull the plug?

personally i think Cameron is doing the wrong thing. you either join a club or not. i'm sick of hearing ''in Britain's best interests'' what Britain!!!

Why would foreign owners pull the plug? Water and Electricity are expensive in the UK - so foreign owners wont pull the plug as will forever be making too much money from us.

As for financials - they won't pull out as London is still the largest financial centre in Europe. Plus, with all the meddaling the Eurozone countries may now do, would only make being in Britain more attractive.

In fact - if we had joined the Eurozone and agreed to the plans they were announcing - then the Finance Sector would have been seriously at risk of dissapearing due to no longer being competetive. Trust me when I say, that if that occured, we will all be 100* worst than we are now. We would be left with the same level of debt and no way to service it as so much money is generated in our economy by the finance business.

[Drew Carey]

OK, I have to admit I do not know what the purpose of this summit was about. I know from the press that it was supposed to be about setting the financial rules and governance to enable a stable euro land. Bit of shutting stable doors after the horse has bolted.

So, were these rules going to be applied to the UK that is not part of euroland? or were they to be applied as we are led to believe to eec members and therefore rules designed to "protect" the euro would be applied to non euro countries?

I think it a bit rich that an organisation that has wrecked their own currency though their own financial incompetence, should then seek to apply taxes on Britain to stabilise somebody elses currency.

They originally wanted to change the treaties etc that govern the way the EU is run and what member states have to adhere to. That means having all EU members agree to a set or rules and regulation that would be governed by Brussels. As part of this there would be sanctions etc.

One element is the imposing of a EU wide levy against financial transactions. This is something which cannot be agreed EVER by the UK. With the majority of EU wide banking going through London this would have effectively meant all finance businesses in UK would pay for the coffers of the ENTIRE EU. This in-turn would make us un-competetive and so could destroy the finance industry in the UK.

This element has been widely broadcasted in the media and Cameron had stated this could only be done on a Global Level - so that it was a fair playing field for all.

Don't get me wrong - there were good elements, ie around regulation etc - but not worth the bad parts. Hence Cameron said no.

So yes - ultimately, these were rules around protecting the Euro from collapse, with a view that all members in the EU would be impacted if the Euro went under.

[Messie]

i think the people of the UK are struggling to realise that we don't actually own anything any more.

i know of 2 banks we still own, BOE and RBS

i know of one power company we still own, Scottish Hydro

i know of 1 water company we still own, Scottish water

so where does that leave us if the owners of the rest of the banks, power and utility companies decide to pull the plug?

personally i think Cameron is doing the wrong thing. you either join a club or not. i'm sick of hearing ''in Britain's best interests'' what Britain!!!

Phew someone who speaks for the other side and who can explain things in a sensible way.
It scares me stiff that Dave has alientated us from the countries that we need to support our means of wealth production. Although a leftie I never did agree with Brown's decisions as PM although he did show a lot of prudent sense as Chancellor.
Too many people get too uptight about losing the British way of life, when in fact we have been one of the most multicultural states in the last 400 years or so. And that has contributed to some of our status and position in the world.
We need Euroland to be stable and productive and for them to be our friend. Our investments, banking and development relies on it. I can see how the lure of 'we're free from stupid EU red tape@ is a calling card to many, but this goes much further than that.
If we're not part of the EU gang, whose gang are we in, because we are a very small country on our own

[Drew Carey]

Although a leftie I never did agree with Brown's decisions as PM although he did show a lot of prudent sense as Chancellor.

Aside from selling near enough the countries entire gold reserves I would agree.

However, although the words he used were not the best - I don't think Cameron has done it to protect some idialistic British way of life. Even they know that ship has long sailed!!

It is about balancing the books - and it is clear if you read any of the economist publications today that we would have been far worse off agreeing to the new treaties.

[Messie]

Cameron may know that but a whole load of the not so erudite voters don't. They tend to see things in very simplistic terms.

[Drew Carey]

This is very true......I certainly agree that his press secretary needs a kicking!!! :D

[ravingdavis]

If we're not part of the EU gang, whose gang are we in, because we are a very small country on our own

Why do we need to be in a gang? Switzerland is the kid in the corner who keeps his sweets to himself yet somehow he also seems to have more than anyone else.

[MisterTommyH]

I see it as the same as handing over control of our budgets to the US so that they could save the dollar.......we wouldn't do that would we.

Does kind of make our position in the EU untenable though.

[Biker Biggles]

Switzerland is not relevant.It has a population of about 17 and does banking and tourism.You cant base a major economy with a population of nearly 70 million on that.We need to look at similar economies to see the way to go.Germany for instance.Surprise surprise,a major European country that manufactures goods on a grand scale and exports them worldwide.Just like we did before the losers took over as our political class.

[anna]

Well I’m not sure why you are all so glad?

Euro will now have their say with the UK sat in the waiting room whilst they make decisions that will undeniably affect the UK.

Why is this a good thing:confused:?

[dizzyblonde]

I don't know what the problem is. There are countries in groups that vote on things within the EU, that others don't, so why is this any different.

So we get chucked in the naughty corner, and isolated......if we're distanced from the EU does that mean that we don't have to adopt their silly biking laws too? :lol:

[MisterTommyH]

Well I’m not sure why you are all so glad?

Euro will now have their say with the UK sat in the waiting room whilst they make decisions that will undeniably affect the UK.

Why is this a good thing:confused:?

I don't see how that is different to letting the Euro have their say over the pound? If they'd decided to do something we didn't like with out budget we'd have been tied in and wouldn't have been able to do anything. Worse, we'd have been tied in by the threat of sanctions.

It's not just about protecting the financial services industry. Any future budget would have to be run past Brussels who could have made us change it.

[Drew Carey]

Well I’m not sure why you are all so glad?

Euro will now have their say with the UK sat in the waiting room whilst they make decisions that will undeniably affect the UK.

Why is this a good thing:confused:?

From my point of view - its not that I am "happy" so to speak. Neither option is good. But I beleive that agreeing to the treaty changes would have been much worse.

It is the lesser of two evils by not accepting the deal on the table.

[Bri w]

Phew someone who speaks for the other side and who can explain things in a sensible way.
It scares me stiff that Dave has alientated us from the countries that we need to support our means of wealth production. Although a leftie I never did agree with Brown's decisions as PM although he did show a lot of prudent sense as Chancellor.
Too many people get too uptight about losing the British way of life, when in fact we have been one of the most multicultural states in the last 400 years or so. And that has contributed to some of our status and position in the world.
We need Euroland to be stable and productive and for them to be our friend. Our investments, banking and development relies on it. I can see how the lure of 'we're free from stupid EU red tape@ is a calling card to many, but this goes much further than that.
If we're not part of the EU gang, whose gang are we in, because we are a very small country on our own

We need the EU?

Our nett contribution to the EU is £48.1 billion pounds. If we pulled out of the EU where do you think the EU countries that buy goods and services from us would buy from? Even if we had to pay import duties that we don't currently have to pay we would be free to subsidise industries (with £48 billion) which at present we aren't allowed to do because Brussels says so...

Does Norway, Switzerland, Lichtenstien and Iceland suffer unnecessarily for not being part of the EU? No, they're part of EFTA and have a number of trade treaties with the EU countries at preferred rates.

The EU as a large trading co-operative, as it was originally set up, yes please. The EU as a blood sucking monolith with little concern for national sovereignty, NO THANKS. Do I want to be part of an organisation the forces Prime Ministers to resign, Greece and Italy, and imposes their own people? Germany and France now rule Greece and Italy, and will do so with any other country that fails. The treaty would have given control of our budget to the EU, and if we'd dare set something that went against the EU.... no way do I want to be part of the Federal Country that is Europe.

[Amadeus]

Switzerland is not relevant.It has a population of about 17 and does banking and tourism.

Don't forget about the very tasty chocolate bars.

[anna]

A cynical person might say that he chose this way to ensure market prices increase over this weekend.

Suddenly making all UK banks banking stocks a little more profitable, just before the Christmas spend.

[maviczap]

We need the EU?

Our nett contribution to the EU is £48.1 billion pounds. If we pulled out of the EU where do you think the EU countries that buy goods and services from us would buy from? Even if we had to pay import duties that we don't currently have to pay we would be free to subsidise industries (with £48 billion) which at present we aren't allowed to do because Brussels says so...

Does Norway, Switzerland, Lichtenstien and Iceland suffer unnecessarily for not being part of the EU? No, they're part of EFTA and have a number of trade treaties with the EU countries at preferred rates.

The EU as a large trading co-operative, as it was originally set up, yes please. The EU as a blood sucking monolith with little concern for national sovereignty, NO THANKS. Do I want to be part of an organisation the forces Prime Ministers to resign, Greece and Italy, and imposes their own people? Germany and France now rule Greece and Italy, and will do so with any other country that fails. The treaty would have given control of our budget to the EU, and if we'd dare set something that went against the EU.... no way do I want to be part of the Federal Country that is Europe.

Blimey EFTA, I've not heard of that for ages, I used to deal with the paperwork, but its all electronic these days.

Plus 1 to your post Bri, as a free trade organisation that's what I remember it being called in the beginning, but its got out of hand now.

[Bluefish]

A STUPID person might say that he chose this way to ensure market prices increase over this weekend.

Suddenly making all UK banks banking stocks a little more profitable, just before the Christmas spend.
There you go.
We will fight them on the beaches, etc

[littleoldman2]

I cannot see what the fuss is about, a politician makes a decision that saves his neck and lets him bask in the sunshine of popularity for a whole weekend at no immediate cost. Its as natural to him as kissing babies, shaking hands and lying.

[Biker Biggles]

I cannot see what the fuss is about, a politician makes a decision that saves his neck and lets him bask in the sunshine of popularity for a whole weekend at no immediate cost. Its as natural to him as kissing babies, shaking hands and lying.

Cynic:D
Quite right though:(

[ravingdavis]

Switzerland is not relevant.It has a population of about 17 and does banking and tourism.You cant base a major economy with a population of nearly 70 million on that.We need to look at similar economies to see the way to go.Germany for instance.Surprise surprise,a major European country that manufactures goods on a grand scale and exports them worldwide.Just like we did before the losers took over as our political class.

Is that a serious argument? Switzerland has a population of over 7 million an an economy that is worth over half a trillion dollars. They are a major economy not some backwater state. To say they only do banking and tourism is a massive and pointless generalisation. With that being the case why not use them as an example of what can be done outside the EU?

[dizzyblonde]

To say they only do banking and tourism is a massive and pointless generalisation.


Don't forget the watches :)

[Biker Biggles]

Is that a serious argument? Switzerland has a population of over 7 million an an economy that is worth over half a trillion dollars. They are a major economy not some backwater state. To say they only do banking and tourism is a massive and pointless generalisation. With that being the case why not use them as an example of what can be done outside the EU?

They are about 1/10 the size of the UK and have almost no industry.They do what they do pretty well but are not comparable to us.Just like Norway is not comparable because they have a small population and lots of oil.We need to base our future on similar countries like Germany and horror of horrors France if we are not to continue our decline into third world status.If we cant do it then we are truely screwed.I dont see any other options.

[ravingdavis]

They are about 1/10 the size of the UK and have almost no industry.They do what they do pretty well but are not comparable to us.

I think we are just going to have to disagree on this topic then :)

[Ed]

Our Dave doesn't want to be in the club but still thinks he should be able to tell them what to do... So M Sarkozy tells him to 'allez-vous en'.

I don't see why we should pay taxes to help bail out Eurozone.

The pound has served us well for 1,000 years. Yes we live in a different world now, but that's what they said in the 16th century too.

And my namesake Ed, on BBC News 24 thinking we're on our own now, all isolated, no mates. Y'know, that bloke is such a lightweight that if he fell out of a boat he wouldn't get wet.

Overall - not ideal but the better of the options I think.

Anyway I bumped into Frau Merkel in Sainsbos. Top bit of totty, Frau Merkel:smt055:smt055:smt055her taste in clothes from the Oxfam shop is particularly good;););) Anyways I asked her if the crisis in the €-zone is now an emergency, and she said 'Nein nein nein'

Coat please:smt048

[ravingdavis]

Our Dave doesn't want to be in the club but still thinks he should be able to tell them what to do... So M Sarkozy tells him to 'allez-vous en'.

I don't see why we should pay taxes to help bail out Eurozone.

The pound has served us well for 1,000 years. Yes we live in a different world now, but that's what they said in the 16th century too.

And my namesake Ed, on BBC News 24 thinking we're on our own now, all isolated, no mates. Y'know, that bloke is such a lightweight that if he fell out of a boat he wouldn't get wet.

Overall - not ideal but the better of the options I think.

Anyway I bumped into Frau Merkel in Sainsbos. Top bit of totty, Frau Merkel:smt055:smt055:smt055her taste in clothes from the Oxfam shop is particularly good;););) Anyways I asked her if the crisis in the €-zone is now an emergency, and she said 'Nein nein nein'

Coat please:smt048

Lol, lol, lol.
Lol.

[punyXpress]

Don't forget Swiss Rolls ( Germany owns the other sort )

[fizzwheel]

He was damned if he did and damned if he didnt.

I think somebody at last with some balls to say "I am doing what I think is best for our country" and its about bl**dy time to. I dont care if he is proven ultimately wrong. At least he tried to do something about it, rather than sitting on the fence or just going with the crowd.

Its difficult to stand up for what you think is right in the face of massive pressure to conform from your peers.

From my own perspective, Liz and I go to Ireland alot, their whole economy is completely screwed. There are lots of young people who cannot get jobs and are now leaving the country in droves to find employment, its being called a brain drain.

I'd not want a situation where they Euro goes down the pan and takes our economy with it. I can see that even now that might happen. I agree its better to be involved with Europe and influence things from the inside, but when the ship starts to sink you have to eventually get into the lifeboat if you want to survive and thats is what I see this as.

[timwilky]

As for swiss industry. Where do you think our Turbine/Generator manufacturing capability has been moved out to. The swiss may not be large scale manufacturers. But they do specialist engineering very well.

[Biker Biggles]

As for swiss industry. Where do you think our Turbine/Generator manufacturing capability has been moved out to. The swiss may not be large scale manufacturers. But they do specialist engineering very well.

Thats kind of my point.They make good watch mechanisms as well,but not very many these days:D
We still make the best F1 cars in the world but not very many.None of that will ever create the several million jobs that we require,and to be solvent we need many of those jobs to be in productive exporting industry.I still dont see the leadership we will need to get there and dont tell me it cant be done because if the Germans can so can we.:smt073

[maviczap]

Thats kind of my point.They make good watch mechanisms as well,but not very many these days:D
We still make the best F1 cars in the world but not very many.None of that will ever create the several million jobs that we require,and to be solvent we need many of those jobs to be in productive exporting industry.I still dont see the leadership we will need to get there and dont tell me it cant be done because if the Germans can so can we.:smt073

Agreed, what we need is a way of stopping all our factories being shut down and the jobs being moved to places like Poland or the Far East. Or stop selling our companies to overseas owners

Avon cosmetics is an example of jobs being moved overseas.

Kraft buying Cadbury's

A lot of this down to the wages bill, so not easy to fix

Unfortunately many of the tariff quotas that used to restrict the import of cheap far east imports were abolished by the last Tory government.

The quotas were there to protect UK manufacturing from the very thing that has happened to them since the quotas were taken away.

To protect your manufacturing base you need to have a level playing field, if the wages in China were similar to our costs then it'd be a different story, but its very hard to compete with them at the moment.

We need their stuff, but they don't need that much of our stuff

[Biker Biggles]

How do the Germans do it?VW Audi is one of the biggest car manufacturers in the world,and they also have Mercedes Porsche and BMW all German owned and doing well.They still build ships trains and all manner of heavy machinary on a grand scale and turn a profit.Their balance of trade figures are hugely in surplus just like ours used to be when I was a kid.They pay good wages too with standards of living much higher than here.We could maybe have the humility to take a few lessons instead of harping back to thrashing them in WW2 and pretending we are fighting them on the beaches again.
(We didnt thrash them anyway,the Yanks and Ruskys did.)

[maviczap]

How do the Germans do it?VW Audi is one of the biggest car manufacturers in the world,and they also have Mercedes Porsche and BMW all German owned and doing well.They still build ships trains and all manner of heavy machinary on a grand scale and turn a profit.Their balance of trade figures are hugely in surplus just like ours used to be when I was a kid.They pay good wages too with standards of living much higher than here.We could maybe have the humility to take a few lessons instead of harping back to thrashing them in WW2 and pretending we are fighting them on the beaches again.
(We didnt thrash them anyway,the Yanks and Ruskys did.)

Probably building quality stuff that people wanted, like VW Golf, Porsche 911, Merc C class, Audi A class, BMW 3 series

Running trains on time.

Maintaining a shipping industry and to some extent having ships that still sail under the German flag, unlike ours which were sold out by their shareholders (P&O,Cunard).

[Bri w]

I work for a successful German manufacturering company. It has clear goals and strong mgt. Get something wrong and you'll soon find out about it. Kick against the stream, especially since 2008, and you're heading towards the door. Its about producing a quality product, selling it, supporting it and making sure you deal with any issues the customer has as quickly as possible. Build the reputation of reliability and you won't have to price your product cheaply - you don't have to be cheap but you do have to show value for money.

We look after our staff, and they look after the company. People don't clock watch, and at times I have to tell them to slow down, cut back, go on leave. I add leave to the their leave record and o/t to their worksheets, and because I value them I get a first class work ethic in return... no I'm not German.

[Biker Biggles]

Absolutely.Maybe our illustrious leaders could address those issues instead of posing on the European stage achieving naff all that will be of any long term use to us.I am sure Cameron et al and their Labour precursers would agree what is needed,but none of them has the first clue about how to get there.Dealing with the Derby train industry fiasco would be a good start if only the tip of the iceberg.

[punyXpress]

To quote maviczap:
" Probably building quality stuff that people wanted, like VW Golf, Porsche 911, Merc C class, Audi A class, BMW 3 series "
and derestricted autobahns to play on.

[Biker Biggles]

"Maintaining a shipping industry"
Thats what I was in when I left school.We traded all round the world in ships built in the UK bringing in huge amounts of foriegn money.Over a relatively short time we allowed the owners to missmanage things so badly that they almost gave it all away to foriegn interests,and all that income dried up.Now we pay others to do it for us in ships built anywhere but here.Im sure its the same story in other industries.

[maviczap]

But in my line of work the Germans are still using systems of control that we got rid of with electronic systems ages ago. They have hundreds of staff dealing with paperwork in an age where electronic documents rule.

When I've visited their offices its like going back 20years, but from my perspective I like it like that.

[maviczap]

"Maintaining a shipping industry"
Thats what I was in when I left school.We traded all round the world in ships built in the UK bringing in huge amounts of foriegn money.Over a relatively short time we allowed the owners to missmanage things so badly that they almost gave it all away to foriegn interests,and all that income dried up.Now we pay others to do it for us in ships built anywhere but here.Im sure its the same story in other industries.

Yes, Harrison line was sold for £1!

But strangely enough there are still a lot of BIG ship management companies based in the UK.

But we prefer to manage ships, rather than own & operate them.

[DJFridge]

We still manufacture in the UK and we have to major on quality. We cannot even begin to compete on price with Eastern Europe and Turkey, let alone China. A few years back we were offered an "equivalent" product by a Chinese manufacturer for us to badge and sell as our own. They were cheaper than we could buy just the components to build something here.

[maviczap]

We still manufacture in the UK and we have to major on quality. We cannot even begin to compete on price with Eastern Europe and Turkey, let alone China. A few years back we were offered an "equivalent" product by a Chinese manufacturer for us to badge and sell as our own. They were cheaper than we could buy just the components to build something here.

That's what tariff quotas, anti dumping duties & duty rates are meant to protect an economy from.

Years ago duty rates on Far East goods were set high to avoid an influx of cheap goods, because they could undercut anyone.

Somewhere & someone took away those controls, Maggies government took away the high duty rates on imported textile goods from the far east, which did it for the textile industry here, that's documented.

Why I don't know?

[Amadeus]

That's what tariff quotas, anti dumping duties & duty rates are meant to protect an economy from.

Years ago duty rates on Far East goods were set high to avoid an influx of cheap goods, because they could undercut anyone.

Somewhere & someone took away those controls, Maggies government took away the high duty rates on imported textile goods from the far east, which did it for the textile industry here, that's documented.

Why I don't know?

I'm pretty sure it wasn't actually due to Thatcher, it was due to China becoming members of GATT. It happened in Thatchers reign but it was more due to China's (and the US') negotiation skills.