View Full Version : Budget racing gone mad!!
andrewsmith
19-12-11, 09:01 PM
It looks like the cheque book racing has eventually hit the minitwins.
Whats everyones views on it?
Does it mean the last preserve of the budget racer is the CB500's
Hi Andy,
time for me to get up on my soap box!!
As far as i'm concerned Minitwins is finished!!
I have a sneaking suspicion that many road racers want to keep it a "closed shop" by simply making it too expensive for your average working class bloke to partake, and right now i'm thinking-you can keep it!!
Bullseye is now officially up for sale and i'm intending to give CB500s a go!
I cant stop thinking about NEMCRC at the AGM 2 weeks ago-there was only 2 of us in the whole club who wanted to keep minitwins alive!! Thats the only supposedly "cheap" class at our club dead!
The ACU have already recognised that there aren't enough racers progressing up to National level-they've changed the criteria for it!
Minitwins was a perfect way for people to compete on a level playing field and progress to National level!!
So now it's bring on the Supertwins and start racing cheque books!!
Well I certainly dont intend racing in the same class where blokes have spent ex number of pounds on engine tuning and i'm running a standard bike-I might as well go to the pub and pee my money up against the wall!!
Have a nice day!!
TC252
andrewsmith
19-12-11, 10:41 PM
Tony
I personally don't blame you, callum or any of the others that call it quits now. 2 out of a club of about 150 to keep a budget class is a poor show.
It does seem that the closed shop is happening. Is this the case now in name at Melville and Knockhill also?
For the record this is only the Northern M/C clubs at present (with Auto66 already running MGP/ Irish Supertwin rules because of Oliver's Mount), Derby Phoenix run Thunderbikes at present
To anyone reading this thread that doesn't know the costs:
You can build a fast competitive Minitwin for around £2k (based on the bike being <£1k) and a season (fuel, tyres, entrance fees, fuel to track etc... Minus pit crews beer supply :lol:) is about £2.5k doing 8-10 meets
A competitive supertwin for the costs around £12- 15k to build (based on £3-5k for the bike) and around £5 to 7k a season (new tyres every meeting, if not every race and quite a bit of 97/99 Ron unleaded).
Everytime I've seen the Supertwin lads they've either wiped the floor (Farquhar and Co) with everyone or have been just ahead of a MT (Oliver's Mount is a good example)
*Soapbox away for Christmas*
Anyways TC put a removable road loom on bullseye and keep it.
I can see why the clubs have done it (from a hypothetical stand point). If a class is too difficult for a club to police effectively then by removing the need to police it, they have an easier life.
I can't say the move to supertwins would bother me. For two reasons
1) I love tinkering with the bike so being able to do more tinkering within the rules would be great for me. I'd have loved to have fitted a 180 rear wheel conversion, a really nice set of front forks, and a host of other items to my bike.
2) I was there for the racing and not there to win. Id didn't matter what the guys at the front were doing (or had done to their bikes, whether legal or not) becasue I knew I'd be able to find someone (usually several) to have a good tussle with. The craic in the pits was just as important as any win was.
and I actualy got a lot of satisfaction knowing I'd beaten someone that (allegedly) had a 750 big bore on his bike. with my completely std bike.
And if I were to have to choose a new category to race in if the MT's died, I'd buy a bike that allowed me to compete in a race with those that were the best laugh. Like the two guys in the pre injection series with Melville.
I'm 42 now and weigh more than your average baby elephant and don't take myself too seriously. I'm never going to be the next Rossi and couldn't care one jot. However, I do care that i'm going to get a bit of racing and I'd enter any class that would allow me to get it. Even a standard Minitwin in the Open class if thats what it took.
C
yeah, been there done that on an old FZR400 with stock engine spec. I was competing against riders who had spent £1500 on a crank shaft, I didnt spend that on my entire bike. Simply no contest when your competitor has 15 mph on you down the straights.
My local club Wirral 100 has ignored the supertwin thing and retained the minitwin spec remembering the reason that we introduced it, budget racing. They get the constant moaning about the guy next door with an illegal engine mod, like every other class, but they leave it to the class regulars to maintain the spirit of the minitwin spec.
Wanna race proper minitwin regs? Get yourself down to Wirral 100 race club using Oulton Park and Anglesey, a well run club on fantastic circuits.
hardhat_harry
20-12-11, 11:55 AM
Thundersport are running MiniTwin, SuperTwin and F400 under different classes (but sharing the same grid).
crisis95
20-12-11, 01:00 PM
It's a shame as a couple of years ago it was the class on the up, with good grids and even better racing. The North east and Melville clubs just don't have the resources to have a dedicated minitwin "police" so maybe this was always going to be the end result when people started asking for enforcement of the rules. The clubs have just changed the rules.
It leaves me wondering what was so broken about it that needed fixing? All those cheats?
I think I'll still rock up to the first Melville meeting and have a go. If I'm left for dead by a load of fire breathing supertwins then I'll call it a day but I can't see that. It's more likely to be an empty grid in which case I'll call it a day as well but most likely is that it'll be much the same. Some sv650's and 400's having a race. The good riders at the front, the not so good ones at the back.
Just as an aside, has anybody had a look at the supertwin lap times vs minitwins for bemsee meetings?
crisis95
20-12-11, 01:00 PM
Posted twice for some reason
nikon70
20-12-11, 01:18 PM
looks like it will be a good time to pick up some nice race bikes to convert back to road bikes, shame tho that this seems to be a fizzling out...
15k for a supertwin, u cud buy farquhars for £8.5k a couple of weeks ago and he won everything with that bad boy. The rule change will hardly make any differance with nemcrc/melville as they werent enforced in the first place, i doubt there was more than a couple illegal bikes anyway. as gordon says if you look at the mtwins/supertwins times theres a knats **** in it anyway. I think a well ridden minitwin will still be very competitive and (no offence tc) a national license still easily achievable on a minitwin up against the supertwins.
andrewsmith
20-12-11, 08:08 PM
15k for a supertwin, u cud buy farquhars for £8.5k a couple of weeks ago and he won everything with that bad boy. The rule change will hardly make any differance with nemcrc/melville as they werent enforced in the first place, i doubt there was more than a couple illegal bikes anyway. as gordon says if you look at the mtwins/supertwins times theres a knats **** in it anyway. I think a well ridden minitwin will still be very competitive and (no offence tc) a national license still easily achievable on a minitwin up against the supertwins.
Gav,
Thats new build cost, Farqhuars would be £16k+ as it destroyed every other Supertwin (inc his team mates).
yup fair enuf bud just re-read that never realised u said build cost
jacknell
20-12-11, 08:45 PM
Defo cant afford to spend that sort of cash on my carby Sv iam building... Still going to race it next year in minitwins/ supertwin class, what ever. My race is with the man in front of me. If Brent wasnt racing a 600 id be up for building a supertwin.
Its a shame the minitwin class is fading out.
kev.
Hi Gav,
no offence taken matey-I value your opinion in fact.
The thing that get's my goat most is that the Minitwin class was supposed to be a level playing field for people racing on a budget.
Supertwins just becomes a class of the "Havs" and the "Have Nots"
Truth is-to answer other comments-If the Clubs who introduced the Minitwin class in the first place had weighed up the the pro's and cons of running it, then they should have sorted out the policing from the start-or not started the class! If i'd been involved with the North East club when Minitwins started i'd have made sure of that! What I find very interesting is that no-one in the past seems to have brought this to lite and were content to let absolutely anything go!!
There are a lot of people-myself included, who turned up to race in what should have been a properly ran and fair class, which in reality was a farce-but hey, the clubs were happy to take my cash and do nowt!!
It will take a good mouthwash to get rid of that bitter taste!
I'm not disagreeing with anyone who wants to turn up and have a race-good luck to you! I just dont think it's worth spending most of my disposable income on-or to put it simpler-in the chequebook race, i'm on a moped!
Merry Christmas and Happy New!
crisis95
20-12-11, 10:12 PM
Tony, how was it a farce? We all enjoyed racing in it for years thanks. It was called minitwins, the rules were available for anyone entering and everyone I knew stuck to them. We shared awnings, looked over each others bikes and kept each other right. I agree it's not as good as bemsee but it worked fine.
When I rocked up at my first minitwin race and finished 13th I didn't spit the dummy and start saying it's a farce and everyone's cheating, I pulled my finger out and the results improved.
Cheque book racing? Wtf is that? Racing costs money Tony, so those with more of it are always going to use it to gain an advantage. When you go cb500 racing and people have a wet and dry bike with new tyres being thrown on for everyrace, suspension and motor serviced regularly, test days before meetings etc etc Are you going to cry about that as well?
If the class wasn't for you mate, fair enough, but calling it a farce is a bit if an insult to those of us who raced hard and played fair and are proud of what little we achieved.
Sorry if it's a bit of a rant. To be honest I'm a bit miffed as I used to hold you up as an example of the "get on with it and don't give a **** what anyone else thinks" club racer. What changed?!
All the best whatever you decide to do.
Gordon
I have to agree with Flash. :P
We used to have a great time in the thick of it and sod the buggers with the big bores. We were never likely to win and knew it and precisely *because* of that we had a blast at the back, in the middle or even, if enough people fell off, the top 7 or 8.
We were there for the *racing* not the winning. Even if it does change to Supertwins, there's still likely to be someone with the same size cheque book to play with. Lots of them in fact.
C
crisis95
20-12-11, 10:49 PM
I did win! But I didn't work on the bike I worked on my riding which is kind of the whole point.
Oxford Dictionary-Farce-Absurdly Futile Proceedings
Futile-Ineffectual
I stick with my description-Minitwins was ran by NEMCRC ineffectively!
If anyone thinks that not one single class relevant check being carried out on one single solitary machine for a whole season is an effective way to run that class, is deluded! And that's just my experience! It's gone on for a lot longer than that!
And you're right Gordon-racing costs money! But me, I like to get something for my money! And yet another truth-I was sold short!
I went to the showroom-ordered a new Focus and they delivered a Fiesta!!
I'll say it again-not one single thing was done to ensure that everyone was playing fair! The murmurings in the paddock were getting louder and all i've ever done is to voice these concerns! But once I put my head over that parapet-blimey all of a sudden i've got shell shock!!
In my opinion-anyone that thinks after several years of running the minitwin class with no enforcement, nobody was pushing the boundaries-perhaps even crossing the boundaries of legality, probably thinks that no-one would ever get on a bus to win a marathon!!
Dont forget-it only takes one rotten apple to spoil the barrel!!
I haven't changed Gordon-I just went through the experience and wised up!!
TC
When I said "We" Gordon, I was talking about Tony and myself. I didn't mean to infer that you were in this group, unless of course you want to take it that way. :-)
crisis95
21-12-11, 09:06 AM
I'm more than happy to be in that group Carl. I just wanted to try and get away from this idea that those near the front were cheating while those in the middle were good lads just having a laugh.
Tony, I suppose you refused to accept your newcomer of the year award, seeing how it was achieved in such a joke of a series?
Experience? One season? Fair one.
Experience would have told you to stop listening to the paddock drippers and whiners not swallow every word.
You'd think we were the only series in the paddock that ran to a set of rules.
You don't see the superstock thou's and six's being pulled apart after every round but they seem to enjoy their racing without deciding that everyone that's beating them must be cheating. It's embarrassing. But I guess when you run in a novice friendly series you get "fast lad" road riders who think that because it's a level playing field they should be winning when in reality it takes most people two or three seasons to get up to speed.
SV650Racer
21-12-11, 01:06 PM
I know its a trip for you guys but it aint dying with Bemsee, in fact its growing even more for 2012. Well policed with a great class rep and very strong grids. Plus a round at Cadwell BSB as a support class.
Tuned SV's in 650cc to 750cc format go into Thunderbikes, again well policed, they have even bore and stroke tested bikes this season just gone.
Can any of you van share??.
I suspect Ryans bike was partly fast due to Ryan riding it, he would wupp ass I suspect even on a minitwin spec bike. BUT true well built supertwins are costly and IMHO apart from those concentrating on roads it isnt a class for the majority who at present are on tighter and tighter budgets. It would be less costly to run a stock 600 in some cases.
attached scottish supertwins rules(hopefully), melville still guna have a minitwins as part of this.
I agree with both gordon and tony :p gordons right about the experience, in my first year (tonys too) we werent that much differant race pace wise. second year with a bit more experience my laps times came down a fair bit and i was nearer the front, even beat flash himself(wasnt tryin hard or nothing gordon ;)) . Any racings expensive and i think stricter policing would of made everyone feel a bit better about the money they were spending but i still think its an awesum class.
anywhos i dont have a minitwin anymore so il butt out!!
Ding Ding, round two!!
Couple of things Gordon,
1. I've never complained-or whinged about the racing in Minitwins, or where I was in the results-not never!! I only came to my decision about the running of the class at the first meeting at Croft this year-that's several months after my last race!! And that is my point-like Gav agrees-Minitwins should be a policed class because of the regulations-this would stop the undertones in the paddock. I paid a lot of money to race in this class-and after the euphoria of the racing wore off-while trudging round the Croft paddock nursing 16 fractures-it hit me like a tonne of bricks-IT'S WRONG!! It needs sorting out!! I'd have a lot more respect for the guys running up front if I knew they were all running legit. Surely you would feel better about it yourself if you can show me your dyno print out after a race?? I personally still feel that the amount of negative press I got when I suggested we introduce tighter policing of the class, that there was something not right going on-sorry-but that's my opinion, and until someone can prove otherwise, it's unlikely to change!
2. If i'd been feeling the way I am now about the running of the class in 2010-you're right-i'd have refused my award-but I was still like I said before-on a high after a great experience-actually one of the best years of my life!! But the cold light of day can show up some strange things mate!
3. I'm still reeling from the vote at the AGM in which it was decided to drop Minitwins-yet again-I feel like the club just wants to take the easy way out when a difficult issue arises!
Lastly-I have no grievance against any individual in Minitwins-or any other class even!! But this issue should have been sorted out long ago-and now the club has 'dodged the bullet' because of a decision made by someone on the Isle of Man!!
Keep it coming-it's great to get ya teeth into a meaty debate!!
Cheers and beers
TC
I can see the clubs reason for changing the rules policing wise, But for me the reason I've went and got an r6 for superstock class is because I enjoyed racing with bikes the same as mine. We had some great battles and at no point I ever feel I was at disadvantage to anyone. I think If I was to stay in the minitwin/ supertwin class Id feel mugged off If by railway corner I couldnt see what direction the leaders had went surely down to the fact they had 20 % more power than me.
I know they are running minitwins within the supertwin class but I just dont think it will be the same. We've all seen the post classic/ junk race at East Fortune. Its not my cup of tea a million classes run at once, Id prefer to line up against the people Ill be racing with, not avoiding or being avoided.
What I really am gutted about is how late they told us this rule change, id spent alot of time and money refreshing my bike for next season for there not to be a real class for it in Scotland.
Hopefully my time in 600s will be as fun as the "minitwin" days, I will sure miss it thats for sure. Best of luck to everyone whatever they decide to race in.
Who wants to hit the final nail in the cofin to minitwin racing in scotland?
Hi Callum,
it's the same down here mate!
There are several lads who are fairly peeved at our club for dropping the minitwin class after they've spent cash and time sorting out 'standard' bikes for next season!
Hope to see you enjoying 600s as much as minitwins.
TC
crisis95
21-12-11, 08:17 PM
"I'd have a lot more respect for the guys running up front if I knew they were all running legit. Surely you would feel better about it yourself if you can show me your dyno print out after a race??"
I guess this is the reason why you felt some resistance. You did it without any respect to the riders you implied, wether intentionally or not, were cheating. Riders who'd worked their way slowly up the grid, as Gav explained, and were enjoying the fruits of those labours.
It's not hard to see why they weren't to impressed when people who'd done a handful of meetings, on bikes that they boasted about how unmodified and below spec they were, finishing 50+ seconds behind the race winner, start telling everyone how it needs to be. You could have gone about it better.
I bought my bike from Curtis Rothwell who finished 6th in the 2008 mro minitwin championship on it and all I've done is paint it so I know it's legal.
In the time I've raced it I haven't come across any bikes that were noticeably quicker than it so all seemed fine to me. I'm interested to know what caused this epiphany and make you realise "something must be done?"
crisis95
21-12-11, 08:27 PM
Callum you gay, what are you doing? Think how much fun it'll be whipping those supertwins on our shoppers!
Nah, I understand tbh. The reason I stopped racing with nemcrc was when they made it ultralights and it was a cluster of all sorts. Looks like this could go the same way. I quite like the look of the pre injection class, some good lads and loons in it. Not sure how cheap a ten year old supersport bike is going to be to run mind.
And I'm not sure I want to be on the same grid as that Gav Donald either, he's terrifying. And he beat me. The *******.
No doubt I'll see you at some point.
we had all sorts of whining in our club, usually from racers at the back of the grid. Over the period of three years I improved my laps at one track by over 5 seconds! Not a single bike mod required, it was totally down to improved riding.
Racing bikes is like many sports in that the better you get, the harder it is to get better.
After a little while I had somebody accusing me of cheating because my bike was somehow modded illegally, I have a totally clear conscience as I know for sure that it was totally legal.
The final race of my season I was accused of jumping the start by one of the same whiners, I knew I hadnt. Fortunately it was caught (just) by somebody on a videocam and I was able to eventually show the other guy.
Forget about the other riders and concentrate on your own speed.
I have never implied that anyone was cheating in Minitwins-I have never used the word cheating in any way!If you feel I have, then you're wrong. I have always been very careful about the words I have used and the way I have used them so as not to cause upset!
But I stand by my thoughts that the farcical way that the class was ran did mean that anyone could cheat as much as they wanted. That has brought with it an air of doubt and negativity-something I picked up on very clearly at the Croft meeting-that is why I got my keyboard out and put up a post!
As for respect-the only respect I consider is mutual, so anyone suggesting i'm not entitled to an opinion because I haven't been a club member for 10 years or i'm not running at the front of the class wont find any coming from me.
I'm a paid up club member, and from day 1 i'm entitled to an opinion and to voice my concerns-you seem to have difficulty accepting that?
So you think I could have gone about voicing those opinions a bit better-but at least I was trying to do "SOMETHING" to resolve a system that I believe was flawed and badly ran!
Dont forget! All that is needed for evil to prosper is that good people do nothing!!
I think its always worth remembering that people can in fact be trusted for the most part. Just because the odd one may 'look for an unfair advantage' (cheating in my book) doesnt mean that everybody else needs to prove their innocence.
It isnt MotoGP or F1 with millions of pounds at stake, its weekend club racing.
So if the minitwin riders at BEMSEE are to be trusted to run fairly-then why are the first 3 riders and 3 others dyno tested after every race?
Someone somewhere at the inception of minitwins must have thought that cheating was going to take place??
I'm beginning to think that the whole idea of minitwins is flawed!
No rules means that none can be broken?
No questions means no lies?
All I wanted at our club was to try and impliment some policing and testing-purely because of the amount of riders I found voicing there concerns in the paddock-i'm not going to call them whingers!!
Now I find myself getting stick just because I was the one that pressed buttons on my keyboard!!
HELP!!!
the very act of pushing for bike testing surely in itself implies mistrust in the other riders, particularly as it seems that the guys at the front are the target of this testing. Have any of them refused to being tested or is it simply that the clubs feels it impractical to introduce the capability and the associated costs/time/effort to make it work?
My opinion is that there's an air of mistrust in the paddock-it's not just me-though i'm feeling very singled out for criticism!
There hasn't been any class relevant inspections in the two years i've been with the club-apart from the Knockhill meeting.
The club was very relutant to impliment any testing or policing-I eventually volunteered to do it!! There are logistical concerns about getting bikes dyno'd-but we eventually got it sorted to use Bob Grants dyno at our Knockhill meeting-strangely-and i'm not implying anything-it's just pure observational fact-several riders who were running at the front of our grid either didn't turn up or had sold their bikes before!!
I'll repeat myself-that is just a pure observational fact!
I'm now beginning to think I wish i'd never started it all-it can be the problem when you start firing other peoples bullets!!
It doesn't matter much now anyway-the club has binned minitwins!
crisis95
21-12-11, 10:33 PM
The only bad vibes at croft were comng from the usual whingers Tony. I was there spectating too.
You raised the issue of respect. You said you would have a lot more for the front runners if they could prove to you they weren't cheating. This implies that you didn't have much to begin with. I treat all my fellow competitors with respect as I know the effort and commitment required just to get on the grid.
You're quite right that you're as entitled to an opinion as any other club member. I would argue that you would be wrong if you thought that meant all opinions should carry equal weight. Someone with one race under their belt, whilst expecting their opinion to be heard, would not expect it to carry the same weight, in a discussion about racing, as someone with multiple club championships. I would have thought that was obvious.
And there you go at the end. Again, implying that that you're the man putting an end to all the wrongdoing in the miniwin world. How did we ever manage without you?
I'm sorry if you're finding someone disagreeing with you upsetting. It's not personal, I just think you're a little bit wrong on this one. But you were a little bit right as well, if that helps.
Nah Gordon-we'll have to disagree about Croft-there was a lot more people raising concerns than I had heard before in my poor little amount of experience!
I wouldn't have come home and set away the minitwin police thread if things were 'normal'!
I'm not getting upset about our disagreements Gordon-I enjoy stimulating debate-I think it's good to be able to have different views on a subject and discuss-it's one of the best ways of learning!
But I must finish with two points!
1. YES-I AM THE MINITWIN MESSIAH!!
2. Only 3 sleeps till Santa!!
Nighty Nite
crisis95
21-12-11, 10:51 PM
But I want the last word, so I'll just say that actually it's 4 sleeps til Christmas.
Can't we agree on anything!!?
Night night
It depends on whether you're on nightshift or not!!
Ha Ha!!
andrewsmith
21-12-11, 11:20 PM
Nah Gordon-we'll have to disagree about Croft-there was a lot more people raising concerns than I had heard before in my poor little amount of experience!
I wouldn't have come home and set away the minitwin police thread if things were 'normal'!
I'm not getting upset about our disagreements Gordon-I enjoy stimulating debate-I think it's good to be able to have different views on a subject and discuss-it's one of the best ways of learning!
But I must finish with two points!
1. YES-I AM THE MINITWIN MESSIAH!!
2. Only 3 sleeps till Santa!!
Nighty Nite
I'm wishing I hadn't restarted this thread.
Gordon, there was quite a few raced concerns at Croft about the Ultralight class after the MT's and F400's were dodging the Clubman 2 strokes on the first lap (Bearing in mind the Road Racer GP125's buggered off chasing Dave Bell).
I personally don't blame anyone for not racing with the NEMCRC as the organisation is poor in the classes.
Callum pre-injections are meant to be a good giggle, Berlin raced one in the Supersports before Bucket come around
Berlin didn't. Berlin set out with a hand full of readies to buy a pre injection bike but came back with an outrageous GSXR 750 and an injected GSXR 600.
... Because I was about 10 minutes from a blokes house in Dumfries when he called and told me he'd just sold the Ex Nial Mckenzie CBR600 carbie he had, and thought stuff it.
So I was running in the supersports with a bike that was down about 30bhp on the leaders....
...which is why I went to Minitwins!
And you lot think yourself lucky. I'm now in Alberta, its minus a gazillion until May, Calgary has just closed the only race track and they haven't even got an SV650 class anyway!
However, Snowmobile racing (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NxUDzZuNHkA) does look a lot of fun! :-)
C
andrewsmith
22-12-11, 07:26 AM
Stand corrected mate.
You mad man got any boat motors kicking around ;)
crisis95
22-12-11, 07:33 AM
I would count yourself lucky that you avoided that ex Mackenzie 600, seeing as he never raced one. Might have been his old winter commuter
I've had an idea!
How about we re-invent the Minitwin class??
No horsepower limit-but no engine work allowed-apart from swopping with other engine internals-cam swap etc...
Yes-you can remap ya pointy to whatever hp you can-but take with it the possible engine explosions...
Everything else as per minitwin regs.
Next the most important bit-increase the fun factor and take away the 'seriousness' factor.
There is no championship-no points-so winning matters less!
In fact race winner gets a crate of beer which must then be taken and shared with all other minitwinners-oh and then must start from back of grid next race!!
Any comments on how this could be implimented gratefully received!!
Lets not let the SV's die-we had too much fun!!
TC
You should look to the past and run it like the old lc 350.
All the keys in a hat before the race.
Your not going to cheat and boost a bike your unlikely to ride.
I'm wishing I hadn't restarted this thread.
Gordon, there was quite a few raced concerns at Croft about the Ultralight class after the MT's and F400's were dodging the Clubman 2 strokes on the first lap (Bearing in mind the Road Racer GP125's buggered off chasing Dave Bell).
I personally don't blame anyone for not racing with the NEMCRC as the organisation is poor in the classes.
Callum pre-injections are meant to be a good giggle, Berlin raced one in the Supersports before Bucket come around
Hi Andrew I had a good think about all classes to suit a budger and believe it or not superstock 600 is the next option for me from minitwins. Pre injection is supersport rules, bikes are fairly old too so maybe past there sell by date. With the superstock class the bike I have is very well sorted and it was minitwin money, spares the lot. Only thing is tyres will wear quicker but then again theres a better range and also ex bsb scrubs that havent done alot if get stuck. The one thing that worrys me is it being a fast bike compared to what Im used too it may take a bit of time to get confident on it to properly enjoy it
SV650Racer
22-12-11, 08:57 AM
So if the minitwin riders at BEMSEE are to be trusted to run fairly-then why are the first 3 riders and 3 others dyno tested after every race?
Someone somewhere at the inception of minitwins must have thought that cheating was going to take place??
The front 3 are tested as Bemsee control all their classes very well. It doesnt mean they think anyone is cheating. People are also pulled at random from the whole grid, same with Thunderbikes, Superteens and Superstocks. It PREVENTS cheating as everyone can quite clearly see that cheating wont be tolerated.
Simple, if you have rules then someone should have the balls to ensure they are being adheered to. Same if someone thinks someone is cheating then they should have the balls to put the money where their mouth is.
Simples.
Seriously if its not working at your club then look at why its working with other clubs. Its worked with Bemsee now very well since 2003. Ive seen all manner of dummy spitting, accusations etc etc, nothing you wont see in any other class tbh.
Good rule policing and just get on with the racing and have fun. Budget doesnt always win these type of classes, skills do.
Hi SV650Racer,
well as you can see from posts we've had issues at NEMCRC!
After putting myself in the position of messenger (and getting shot at)!
How can a first season novice come here and tell us how to run our class, is the sort of feeling i'm getting.
I asked/suggested that we needed to introduce policing and testing in our minitwin class.
To clarify from my own experience-not one single policing check or dyno test was done when I raced with the club in 2010-missed this season because of injury.
The club said they did not have facility to dyno test-but we finally managed after a lot of hoo har to get the use of one at Knockhill-but was told afterwards that it wouldn't happen again!
The dyno facility at Knockhill has now gone!
When the issue of policing was raised-I volunteered but didn't get much support at all!
To sum up-I feel that a lot of the front runners feel that us lads bringing up the rear are accusing them of cheating-I've never ever used that word! And yes I do have respect for them.
I feel that it would ease the running of the class to introduce testing and policing-but the feedback i've had has never been that positive!
Any suggestions would be gratefully received.
This may be a little retrospective-but it was decided at this years AGM to scrap minitwins in favour of supertwin type class-however several lads are peeved as they have already prepared minitwin spec bikes-at least one has e-mailed the club to protest-maybe we can pull the class back from the brink?
TC
SV650Racer
22-12-11, 02:03 PM
I totally understand your frustrations and understand where your comming from. Surely everyone racing in the class should appreciate that for a class to work and grow a structure of policing which is carried out in a fair manner is required.
Every class that runs under a form of rules requires this and it certainly doesnt mean anyone at the time is cheating, it just ensures fair play and prevention of cheating.
I cant honestly suggest a way forward as it seems the club needs to get a grip of itself aswell as some of the riders that are moaning about policing of the class.
Can you not form a commitee of people that want to continue running under Minitwins rules, designate an agreed elidgability officer who also acts as a riders rep (pref someone who understands the rules and is not involved in the class) and see if the club will allow you to run a sub class for minitwin spec bikes?.
If you want it to happen and so do others then you have a good chance of making it happen. If people dont want it policed then dont let them drag you down, ive seen all manner of bitching and moaning about who is cheating, best plan is to ignore the moaners and not let them drag you down.
Andy,
firstly, I must say that after spending time with you in the paddock I think you're a canny lad and that i'm dead grateful for the help and support you've given me-hope it continues if i'm back on track next season!
Second, as a member on this forum you're entitled as much as anyone here to make a comment, or start a thread, or whatever.
But! I think I must make a comment.
There are a lot of lads on here who actually are/have been road racing. I'm sure you're aware-or if not i'll help make you aware-but we've actually sat on the start line, waiting for the lights to change, guts churning, clutch hand cramping, mouth like a budgies cage, senses buzzing, bank account emptying, and wondering if we'll make it round the first corner alive after that wave of thunder crashes over you!! Are you getting the picture?
You just have to read through the previous posts, to realise how passionate and opinionated we are about this sport-you agree dont you Gordon??
I know you're wishing you hadn't started the thread-but firing a bunch of lads like us up into a frenzy can be a tenuous game-I myself am very aware of that!
It might be a good idea for you to actually give road racing a go before commenting on, or raising the more heated topics in this area of the forum.
Regards
TC
andrewsmith
22-12-11, 04:19 PM
Andy,
firstly, I must say that after spending time with you in the paddock I think you're a canny lad and that i'm dead grateful for the help and support you've given me-hope it continues if i'm back on track next season!
Second, as a member on this forum you're entitled as much as anyone here to make a comment, or start a thread, or whatever.
But! I think I must make a comment.
There are a lot of lads on here who actually are/have been road racing. I'm sure you're aware-or if not i'll help make you aware-but we've actually sat on the start line, waiting for the lights to change, guts churning, clutch hand cramping, mouth like a budgies cage, senses buzzing, bank account emptying, and wondering if we'll make it round the first corner alive after that wave of thunder crashes over you!! Are you getting the picture?
You just have to read through the previous posts, to realise how passionate and opinionated we are about this sport-you agree dont you Gordon??
I know you're wishing you hadn't started the thread-but firing a bunch of lads like us up into a frenzy can be a tenuous game-I myself am very aware of that!
It might be a good idea for you to actually give road racing a go before commenting on, or raising the more heated topics in this area of the forum.
Regards
TC
TC
I know what your getting at, and sadly road/ short circuit is something I couldn't do (competitively) as I can't disconnect the 'What if' part of the brain that all racers are able to.
I started the thread to carry on what had started in Callum's sale thread, as its a debate worth having TBH.
Andy
Andy,
I agree-it's definately a debate worth having!
There are a lot of lads who are peeved at North East club as they've already prepped a minitwin spec bike and now the class has been dropped!
It's looking like the only solution for anyone who wants properly organised minitwin racing is to travel to Bemsee-which is a great pity!
TC
chris #113
24-12-11, 02:41 PM
ok lads, after the AGM at the northeast club,i was disappointed as a rider and a committee member on the UL class for 2012 we had are final meeting of 2011 on thursday,a rider has emailed in about what was said and decided at the AGM, cut a long story short, the class is now back to how it was last season, modified twins, twins,F400,GP125'S. im going to try and police it the best i can,i need all other riders to chip in and get the class buzzing again, great racing,great banter between the riders at are club in this class, tony get my number off toot and give a ring and i,ll fill you in on everything else... happy minitwins :rave:
Hi Chris,
sent you a PM with my phone number.
cheers
TC
jacknell
24-12-11, 04:20 PM
Great News Chris, look forward once again to ride in minitwins with the NEMCRC. Kev.
Ho Ho Ho.
Santa here!!
Here's an early Christmas present for all Minitwinners!
NEMCRC and Melville club will retain a class for standard bikes for the 2012 season.
However-this does come at a price!
Both clubs-now more than ever, will be relying on riders to really enter into the spirit of the class-so we need as many entries as possible, close racing, and great socialising-we need to show the class is both viable and vibrant!
Plans are afoot to ensure the class is policed as effectively as club resources allow-this should help nurture a sense of fair play-making the class the envy of all others!!
So lets go now-stuff our faces and drink ourselves senseless!!
Have a Merry Christmas and a Happy New Year-hope you get lots of new shiney bike bits!! I'm hoping for the TT3D DVD-yee haa!!
TC
yorkie_chris
24-12-11, 09:41 PM
But what is "standard"?
There is some stuff you can't see without tearing everything down, IMO if you tried to make a "sensibly standard-ish" class, you'd end up with minitwin-ish rules?
From what I see overall, I think minitwin rules work well and it wouldn't take much to set any concerns aside. They could do with getting rid of some of the silly rules, like tank filler modifying and PAIR system, but details details...
Minitwin69
26-12-11, 01:35 PM
Hi There,
we at Bemsee are all extremely proud of our club, the level of policing is very high, the people who police it on our behalf are very experienced and knowledgable and see all that goes on, we have a lot of faith in them. Unfortunately as in life, when there are rules people make it their absolute goal to break or sidestep them for personal gain, for some they have to win at any price.
We have been racing in Minitwins since 2006 and raced against many talented riders, Jak Wright, Chris Northover, Adam and Peter Malloy, Sam Cox and Luke Helm to name buy a few. In that time we have had many technical inspections, stripping the bike down to check all manner of things from slipper clutches to airbox mods and everything in between including Dyno runs, I know I'm getting on a bit but I can only remember a few ever being excuded which is testimont to the dicipline in the class.
It is a fantastic feeder class but you need to be united, also to have some influential experienced people on board, we at Bemsee are extremely fortunate to have people like Steve and Sarah Jordan, Gabby Burns amongst others who are pasionatly involved and are resposible along with the teams of making racing and Minitwins what it is today, passionate, close, competitive and fair racing. This takes everyones involvement and some difficult questions at times but most importantly communication. These are not some big corporate organisations we race with, these are our clubs and we all have a resposibility to be involved. I think we at Bemsee have the mix just about right, its not perfect but we deal with the difficulties and get on with our racing which takes strong leadership. If your unhappy at what is happening at your club Sarah has given you some very good advice, get together, get a rep, make your voice heard and make your class what you want it to be.
It saddens me greatly that some clubs are contemplating removing such a great class
Ultimately if not satisfied you can make the decission to vote with your feet, we'd be glad to have you.
Gary
chris #113
27-12-11, 10:50 AM
But what is "standard"?
There is some stuff you can't see without tearing everything down, IMO if you tried to make a "sensibly standard-ish" class, you'd end up with minitwin-ish rules?
From what I see overall, I think minitwin rules work well and it wouldn't take much to set any concerns aside. They could do with getting rid of some of the silly rules, like tank filler modifying and PAIR system, but details details...
hi there, this is what we propose to run at the nemcrc next season, this is make or break for this class at are club,this class is becoming a head ache, but as a twin rider and a commitee member, ive suggested we give it one more season to try and run a stress free happy class like it was a couple of seasons ago,like every club up and down the country, we run this club as volunteers,and have 5 or 6 other classes running per meeting,and the minitwuns is just one,hence why most of the commitee members wanted to change the class for 2012 for all the trouble it caused in the last couple of years, right what we propose, we are changing what the class is called, northeast super twins : ie tuned twins/modified, engine,wheels,forks etc etc! northeast mini stock, as close to minitwin rules as we can run it, i my self is going on a scrutineers course in feb at croft and will be in the scutineers bay at every meeting we run next, i will be checking the twins as they come through, we are going to have a modified/stock option on the entry forms for next season,we hope most people will be honest,we cant see whats inside the motors and we dont have a dyno,anyone that thinks someone is running a tuned motor in the stock class, is welcome to put up the money and get it stripped and measured, or if we are at a meeting where there is a dyno, you'll have to pay for the bike to have a run, as the club will not be paying, anyone caught running a modified bike in the stock class will be kicked out and placed in the supertwins and any points scored will be taken away and they will start with 0 points in the supertwins.....
chris #113
Red Herring
27-12-11, 11:18 AM
I'm no longer racing so I'm not up to date with all the latest issues, but back in the good old days of LC/TZR racing there were always mutterings about tuned this, illegal that. Racing is racing and people are always going to ask why someone else is quicker than them, and every now and then someone is going to cheat.
In my experience if someone has significantly more horsepower than the rest of the grid is is blindingly obvious, and the other racers will know it. Quicker on an apex, better on the brakes, sharper out of a bend, these can always be down to rider technique (and or a lighter rider!) but top speed is hard to disguise. Paddocks always used to be quite close communities, everybody knew everybody else, and if someone suddenly developed an extra turn of pace tongues soon wagged. Sometimes race organizers would pick up on this and step in (Dave and Bernie at Bemsee in my day) or sometimes it was down to the other riders. In those days the the ACU made provision for technical protests (do they not anymore?), sure you had to put your money where you mouth was but I saw on several occasions a number of riders pool their funds to get an opponents engine stripped, and I never saw them lose their money....
Have the courage of your conviction. If you're not sure it's either such a minor cheat it makes no difference or you're not as good as you think you are.
andrewsmith
27-12-11, 12:35 PM
hi there, this is what we propose to run at the nemcrc next season, this is make or break for this class at are club,this class is becoming a head ache, but as a twin rider and a commitee member, ive suggested we give it one more season to try and run a stress free happy class like it was a couple of seasons ago,like every club up and down the country, we run this club as volunteers,and have 5 or 6 other classes running per meeting,and the minitwuns is just one,hence why most of the commitee members wanted to change the class for 2012 for all the trouble it caused in the last couple of years, right what we propose, we are changing what the class is called, northeast super twins : ie tuned twins/modified, engine,wheels,forks etc etc! northeast mini stock, as close to minitwin rules as we can run it, i my self is going on a scrutineers course in feb at croft and will be in the scutineers bay at every meeting we run next, i will be checking the twins as they come through, we are going to have a modified/stock option on the entry forms for next season,we hope most people will be honest,we cant see whats inside the motors and we dont have a dyno,anyone that thinks someone is running a tuned motor in the stock class, is welcome to put up the money and get it stripped and measured, or if we are at a meeting where there is a dyno, you'll have to pay for the bike to have a run, as the club will not be paying, anyone caught running a modified bike in the stock class will be kicked out and placed in the supertwins and any points scored will be taken away and they will start with 0 points in the supertwins.....
chris #113
Chris are they still going to run the GP125's with the Minitwins/ Supers/ F400's? or they been relegated to forgotton era/ classics
Talking future 'if' the class is deemed a headache by the Club would this years proposal become 2013 class?
chris #113
27-12-11, 10:07 PM
Chris are they still going to run the GP125's with the Minitwins/ Supers/ F400's? or they been relegated to forgotton era/ classics
Talking future 'if' the class is deemed a headache by the Club would this years proposal become 2013 class?
hi andrew.
GP125'S and F400'S wiil still be running with the supers and the stock twins,if we get bigger grids this season in the twins,then we will re think about moving the 125's/400's, i cant see why not to carry on the same way next season, if things go well and everyone plays ball and keep the class fun and exciting to ride in and for spectators. 400's and 125's are fizzling out, with no BSB running at croft this year,we wont get the influx off BSB wasps in april,as there going four stroke in GP'S in the future i think it will price riders out of that class and hope they will use the twin class as a stepping stone to move on to F600'S.
andrewsmith
27-12-11, 10:17 PM
hi andrew.
GP125'S and F400'S wiil still be running with the supers and the stock twins,if we get bigger grids this season in the twins,then we will re think about moving the 125's/400's, i cant see why not to carry on the same way next season, if things go well and everyone plays ball and keep the class fun and exciting to ride in and for spectators. 400's and 125's are fizzling out, with no BSB running at croft this year,we wont get the influx off BSB wasps in april,as there going four stroke in GP'S in the future i think it will price riders out of that class and hope they will use the twin class as a stepping stone to move on to F600'S.
Cheers Chris
It is only a matter of time before the 125's and F400's do die and it'll go the way of the 250's (handful of competitive bikes and the rest are museum pieces).
Shame the owners have decided against the BSB this year.
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