Starter Clutch Failure

[squirrel_hunter]

The below picture is from mackemforever's 2000 SV650 (c.20,000 miles, restricted, standard except end can, recently reframed). Looks like we are missing 5 teeth from the starter clutch:

http://i153.photobucket.com/albums/s216/squirrel_hunters_photos/Spannering/IMG_0189.jpg

The symptoms were described as bad starting which is suspected as the usual reg/ rec problem as it needed to be bumped and boosted to and from the MOT station. But also unhealthy sounding bangs which would stop once the engine started almost as if the exhaust had a hole in it. Battery charged, the starter motor was removed and earthed on the frame, it span freely. So the process of elimination while wondering if the starter motor may require attention was to take the alternator cover off to have a quick look at the starter clutch. This is the image I was emailed.

So obviously the starter clutch (at the very least) requires replacement. I have advised not to attempt to start the engine again until all bits of the clutch have been recovered, that is if the teeth are still whole. However I think mackemforever would like to avoid splitting the engine to do this though I've not ruled this out yet. He should be sifting the drained oil for bits plus I've told him to take the oil gallery bolt out as I've found bits of engine in there before.

Is there any further advise to give and what might have caused this starter clutch to fail?

[zadar]

Lay bike down on left side and leave it like that overnight. Take clutch out and use magnet through hole in case behind clutch. Should be able to fish anything that is on bottom of motor.

[Sid Squid]

Is there any further advise to give and what might have caused this starter clutch to fail?
Good question. In what state are the teeth on the idler?

I have advised not to attempt to start the engine again until all bits of the clutch have been recovered, that is if the teeth are still whole.
Very wise. Make sure that you can account for all the bits before riunning the bike again. That said if they're broken off rather than shredded you shouldn't have to work too hard to retrieve them, Zadar's suggestion should soon see them found. When they're all out and it's running again, I'd do another oil change is pretty short order to make sure any lost bits are removed.

[mackemforever]

Thanks for posting this squirrel, didn't even think of posting up up here!

Will follow Zadar's suggestion and lie the bike down overnight and get a magnet on it tomorrow morning to try and fish out the remaining teeth.

I did drain the oil and filter it and only found 1 tooth that way so I've still got 3 more to find and ideally I need them found by Sunday so I can take the bike back up to Uni with me.

*Edit* As for how they have broken, the only one I've found was a perfectly clean break so I would hope the rest of them are like that too.

[mackemforever]

Ok, I had the bike on it's side overnight, got the clutch out this morning, had a proper fish around with a good old fashioned magnet on a stick and found absolutely bugger all.

Any other suggestions or am I now at the point where the only option is to take the engine out and strip it down?

[zadar]

Did you get allen bolt from bottom of engine when you drained oil. That is other place pieces may be sitting at.

[mackemforever]

I've obviously taken the drain plug out but I've also taken out the allen bolt just infront of it to get a bit more oil out. Every drop that came out of the bike was filtered and there was only 1 tooth in all of it.

[zadar]

The one under oil pump, 8mm allen?

[mackemforever]

From memory I believe so but I'll have a check in the morning.

[zadar]

This one with red silicon around it.
Take it off, all junk inside motor ends there.

[mackemforever]

Ah, no I hadn't. I could have sworn I had!

Took it out about 90 minutes ago and the 3 remaining teeth dropped straight out. If only you had mentioned that bolt before I took the clutch out!

[mackemforever]

Bit of a setback after all of this.

There was a bit of damage to the starter idle gear but I thought I could get away with it. Rebuilt everything, pushed the starter, and there is still a rattling/clunking coming from around the starter motor/starter clutch. Nothing like it was before, a much quieter, more rapid noise, which does suggest to me that it is due to the starter idle gear.

Gonna be back in a week or so from Uni so will replace the gear when I get back, will also put in a new woodruff key as the one I've put in there wasn't a perfect fit.

[hardhat_harry]

I have a starter gear from a 2001 in great condition you can have for a tenner + postage

PM me if you want it

[zadar]

Took it out about 90 minutes ago and the 3 remaining teeth dropped straight out. If only you had mentioned that bolt before I took the clutch out!

By your first post I thought you did.

[mackemforever]

Ok, one more problem for you lovely lot!

Got the teeth all out, replaced the starter clutch, rebuilt the clutch having taken it out, refilled with new oil, and started the bike.

Bike started fine, no noises, it was a bit slow turning over but that was partly due to a slightly low battery and I'm assuming partly because the starter clutch had been drained and so the new oil hadn't fully circulated.

However it is making a regular knocking noise, not too loud but easily audible, which sounds like it is coming from the clutch. Is it possible that I've just made a mistake when rebuilding the clutch? If so, what is the most likely thing? I'm assuming it can't be anything major as nothing major has been taken apart.

Thanks.

[mackemforever]

New update. Having had a proper listen to it, the noise sure as hell isn't coming from the clutch.

It sounds like it is coming from around the radiator. Does the radiator fan run faster at higher revs? The noise definitely gets more frequent if I rev it.

[mackemforever]

Yet another post, just realised that in theory the radiator fan shouldn't be on all the time so unless it's not working properly it can't be that.

Please help with ideas!

[zadar]

A lot of things can make noise, top end, bottom end, tensioner,...etc.
I have never seen starter gear break like your did so I would take good look in there, make sure casting for hole where starter gear sits is not broken. Clutch can make noise and sometime it is normal.

[mackemforever]

I appreciate that it could be a lot of things, but surely there are some things that are more likely to have gone wrong given that we know what has been done to the bike. As in it wasn't making this noise before the clutch & starter clutch were taken out.

[zadar]

Than start there. I can't tell you what is making noise, if I was there I would know but I am behind keyboard 10000 miles away :)

[LilF350]

Hey guys, I've got the same problem as the mentioned OP. I drained all the oil and took the cover off and found the same exact thing as the image provided earlier.

What I'd like advice on, is what is the easiest way of replacing that starter clutch gear / flywheel ring? Seems to me that all you do is undo the allen bolts and slide it out and pop a new one in, or is there more to it?

Also, where is the cheapest place or maybe one of you gentleman, I can get that gear / ring? Or am I up on buying a whole new starter clutch kit?

Thanks for the help in advance, didn't mean to steal your thred but didn't want to start a new one since this one is still active!

LilF350.

[yorkie_chris]

You need to take flywheel off.

I have one of those gears if you want.

[muzikill]

And you'll need the rotor removal bolt/tool which I can send. Is the bolt on the rotor the reverse one guys?

[yorkie_chris]

No it's RH thread.

You need M20 fine bolt to remove.

[muzikill]

Looking at the list of your topics, you dont half get some bike probs btw....

[LilF350]

You need to take flywheel off.

I have one of those gears if you want.

Okay, I assume the flywheel is the thing secured with the allen bolts correct? Im new to motorcycles so bear with me! Now you also mentioned id need the m20 to remove those bolts right? Seems too easy to be true ahem. I also need a gasket for that cover as well.

Thanks for the support guys.

[muzikill]

No its not, its held in by the rotor in front of it. The rotor is held in by that big bolt in the middle which you remove and you remove the rotor over something called a woodruff key by using the M20 fine pitch bolt which you screw into the hole where you removed the rotor bolt which pushes the rotor off.
Read the official engineers manual on all of this. You dont touch those allen bolts btw!

Im sure you have to take the cover off the other side because you need to jam the shaft on the other side to stop the rotor turning because that bolt in the middle is torqued to the max :(

[squirrel_hunter]

Im sure you have to take the cover off the other side because you need to jam the shaft on the other side to stop the rotor turning because that bolt in the middle is torqued to the max :(

I wouldn't do that.

From memory here the other side is the idle gear and although it is a reverse thread its torque setting is much less then the alternator side.

It is possible to remove the alternator with the engine in or out of the frame using the method detailed here (http://forums.sv650.org/showpost.php?p=1276678&postcount=6).

But please remember to torque the rotor bolt back up properly. Its 120nm which the last time I did it was all of my down force on the torque wrench against all of Stretchie's down force on the spanner. Luckily Stretchie has far more down force then me...

Oh and one more thing, drain the other gallery.

http://i153.photobucket.com/albums/s216/squirrel_hunters_photos/Spannering/IMG-20120818-00744.jpg

You don't want this floating around your engine do you?

[muzikill]

Squirs right I remember using a monster spanner on the rotor shaft in the middle to stop it spinning, its got flat edges so you can do it and remove the bolt.

[LilF350]

No its not, its held in by the rotor in front of it. The rotor is held in by that big bolt in the middle which you remove and you remove the rotor over something called a woodruff key by using the M20 fine pitch bolt which you screw into the hole where you removed the rotor bolt which pushes the rotor off.
Read the official engineers manual on all of this. You dont touch those allen bolts btw!

Im sure you have to take the cover off the other side because you need to jam the shaft on the other side to stop the rotor turning because that bolt in the middle is torqued to the max :(

I took the bolt off pretty easy, I had channel locks and held the shaft with indents and used the ratchet to take that bolt off. Pretty easy actually.

So now I will try and take that rotor off with that tool you guys mentioned or I'll find something around to implement that.

Anyone in the U.S around California that has the gear I need?

Thanks,
F350

[LilF350]

If I realigned the teeth would it be safe to start the bike? Considering all broken teeth were fished out, 6 of them.

[squirrel_hunter]

No.

You could line the teeth up and you could start the bike. However that assumes that you know how many rotations of the starter motor, the transfer gear, and the starter clutch there are for the exact time you have your finger on the starter motor before the engine engages. Then would the teeth line back up for the next and every time you try to start it? I thought not.

Do not try and start the bike with a broken starter clutch. You run the risk of further damage to the engine/ starter components.

[yorkie_chris]

Bump it if you want now all the shrapnels out.

However next time that starter idler, spinning fast with high torque, comes out of mesh and tw*ts into the next tooth you'll be fishing for more bits of crap again as it'll just knock more teeth off.

[muzikill]

Plus the starter wheel isnt as tight to the back as you think. DONT EVEN THINK ABOUT DOING IT.

Youll **** the engine bits!

[LilF350]

Guys does anyone have the said part for sale? I need it asap. The gear ring that is.