france bans speed-camera-warnings

[NTECUK]

Nice motoriing friendly lot them French
http://www.motorcyclenews.com/MCN/News/newsresults/General-news/2012/January/jan1312-france-bans-sat-navs-with-speed-camera-warnings/

[MattCollins]

Not an issue if those speed camera notifications just become a hazard notification.

[-Ralph-]

Of course it's an issue, who is going to pay for the update to a new software version with hazard notification?

What if your sat nav either doesn't do software updates, or the manufacturer says stuff the French market and doesn't release one, you have to bin it and buy a new one? What if your integrated sat nav does speed cameras? Buy a new car? Oh no, you couldn't do that, nobody could buy the old one from you because the sat nav in it is illegal.

Renault, one of France's own and biggest selling brands, has been supplying integrated TomTom Carminat units with an SD card for years now. My (French) father-in-law recently bought a new SD because he wanted the Europe maps, rather than just the France maps supplied with the car, it was well over 100 quid.

The French government are idiots when it comes to motoring laws, then the population just ignore them anyway.

[ravingdavis]

One of the guys on my team at work is French and its hilarious to hear his opinion on the multitude of ludicrous things that the French government keep imposing. This is unenforceable and I will be very surprised if the French police even attempt to enforce this. As for needed to spend money on new SatNavs, if your worried about it turn the camera warning off, you can do it on every SatNav type that I've used.

[-Ralph-]

As for needed to spend money on new SatNavs, if your worried about it turn the camera warning off, you can do it on every SatNav type that I've used.

We don't have all the information of course, only an MCN article :rolleyes:

But lets for sake of argument say they have got it right.

Sat navs and smart phones which warn of speed camera locations have been banned in France.

It doesn't say speed camera warnings must be switched off in France, it says the devices themselves have been banned (which actually means the software not the device of course).

You are not allowed to have certain radar detector or blocker devices in this country, it doesn't matter that you've got it switched off at the time the police catch you with it.

I think your right though, it won't be enforced because it's unenforceable. Are the police going to sift through every app on the smartphone of every person they stop, to make sure you haven't got a GPS camera warning app on there?

[tigersaw]

So long as you rename the speed trap overlay as danger area seems you'll be ok

[punyXpress]

Just how unenforcable is it when PC flic frog-marches ( sorry ) you to the cash point & demands 1500 euros?
Don't think they're known for their tender tendencies.

[MisterTommyH]

Simple answer - e-mail the manufacturer and ask if it's now legal to use the model you have in France.

Lets see what Garmin say.

[DJFridge]

Simple answer - e-mail the manufacturer and ask if it's now legal to use the model you have in France.

Lets see what Garmin say.

Anyone tried this yet? I've no idea who makes the built-in one we have in the Volvo anyway but the mapping software is NavTech. We've also got an old TomTom One with Euromaps, which is so basic it has never heard of speed cameras. Just a thought, the road atlas we buy every year has speed camera sites marked - are they now illegal too?

[punyXpress]

From another site:
" Unless you are going totally mad speed the static camera option is not a problem for foriegn plates, however the rozzers at a speed trap will stop you and it's on the spot fine, no money in your pocket ? they take you to a cashpoint, no cashpoint card ? then it's "le bastille"and "le porridge" for you !"
Bon chance!

[-Ralph-]

That obviously refers to being caught by a speed camera in France. French systems are not linked up with the DVLA so you wont get a ticket. Not true of all foreign plates though at least one other EU country I'm aware of has linked up with France. It has nothing to do with the sat nav law.

[MisterTommyH]

Simple answer - e-mail the manufacturer and ask if it's now legal to use the model you have in France.

Lets see what Garmin say.

"Thank you for contacting Garmin Europe.

I am happy to help you with your query Recently the French Government have issued a law banning the use of safety camera warnings on satellite navigation products.

If you are planning on using your Garmin GPS device to navigate within France you will need to make sure that your device is compliant with this new legislation. For furtrher details please go to http://www.garmin.com/uk/extras-camera-alerts/#france."

Blah blah blah

Garmin Europe.

[-Ralph-]

Tommy, that's great stuff, thanks.

"UK customers who are travelling in France should disable their French safety camera database before arriving on French territory. Instructions are provided below"

"Q3: I have heard that it is now illegal to use safety camera warnings when travelling in France. Will I get fined if I travel there using my device?

A3: Anyone driving in France who is stopped by the police and caught using a device with safety camera warnings could face a fine of €1500, irrespective of their country of origin. The advice for all non-French customers is to disable safety camera warnings before driving within France."

So basically, the device is OK, you just have to switch off the camera warnings.

[Biker Biggles]

I can see the Garlic Munchers turning this into a nice little earner with thousands of unsuspecting visitors caught out.
And we think somali pirates are ripping us off.

[MisterTommyH]

Tommy, that's great stuff, thanks.

"UK customers who are travelling in France should disable their French safety camera database before arriving on French territory. Instructions are provided below"

"Q3: I have heard that it is now illegal to use safety camera warnings when travelling in France. Will I get fined if I travel there using my device?

A3: Anyone driving in France who is stopped by the police and caught using a device with safety camera warnings could face a fine of €1500, irrespective of their country of origin. The advice for all non-French customers is to disable safety camera warnings before driving within France."

So basically, the device is OK, you just have to switch off the camera warnings.

I wish they'd just said that in the reply though. Doesn't categorically state that having them turned off doesn't get you fined..... I know I'm being a pedant, but if i'm relying on their advice I'd like it to be clearer.

[-Ralph-]

I wish they'd just said that in the reply though. Doesn't categorically state that having them turned off doesn't get you fined..... I know I'm being a pedant, but if i'm relying on their advice I'd like it to be clearer.

I'm not sure they can...

"On 3 January 2012 the French government issued a new law that effectively bans all systems that are able to provide warnings of safety cameras (aka speed cameras). This law includes all sat nav based systems."

I think the advice is, turn off your speed camera warnings, then argue your case, good luck, and don't blame us.

You could speculate that the French police may have 'guidelines' not to fine johnny foreigner if it's switched off, but I think the law says the devices themselves are banned.

[BoltonSte]

Tomtom has this to say:
Since decree n°2012-3 was introduced on 3 January 2012 it has been illegal to be warned about the position of fixed or mobile speed cameras while you are driving in France. If your TomTom navigation device has the Speed Camera service and you continue to use the service, you risk a fine of up to €1500.

Can you turn the serice off on the Tomtom's?

[DJFridge]

OK, say you can't easily switch off the the camera warning bit and it's a built in system so you can't not take it with you. So you have, in fact, turned of the whole system and are actually using one of those funny old flappy things called a map to navigate. Would I be right in assuming that the police would have nothing to charge you with?

[MisterTommyH]

Depends if the map shows speed camera positions(!)

[DJFridge]

Depends if the map shows speed camera positions(!)

I haven't bought this year's yet but the Michelin road atlas has done for the last four or five years at least. But, it only shows fixed sites so I don't know if that is different anyway.

I was more wondering about the satnav system. Is it illegal when it it's turned on? Or just illegal full stop?

[-Ralph-]

Everything I've read so far seems to say illegal full stop (which is the case here with radar detectors). I need to find the actual wording on a French website and get my wife to read it.

As you say if it's an integrated system, and that's the case, the French have just made the car illegal. It's ridiculous.

[-Ralph-]

OK, I understood it, but still got my wife to clarify before posting this in case I had made a mistake. I'm not going to translate word for word, but these are the highlights from an interview with a motoring solicitor:

http://www.motoservices.com/vitesse/reglementation-radar.htm

Un décret de la sécurité routière N°2012-3 publié au Journal Officiel du 4 janvier 2012 vient modifier l'article R413-15 du code de la route qui prohibait déjà les détecteurs de radar en interdisant dorénavant la possession, le transport et l'utilisation des « avertisseurs de radars ». Ce décret aggrave les sanctions visant l'usage ou la possession de tels appareils en faisant passer le nombre de retrait de points du permis de conduire de deux à 6. Indiquons également que la contravention pour une telle infraction est de 1500 euros d’amende.
De plus cette infraction peut entrainer des peines complémentaires telles : la suspension, pour une durée de trois ans au plus du permis de conduire, la confiscation du véhicule, lorsque le dispositif qui a servi ou était destiné à commettre l'infraction est placé, adapté ou appliqué sur un véhicule. Précisons enfin la confiscation du dispositif qui a servi ou était destiné à commettre l'infraction.

This is discussing the new law surrounding radar detectors, or more accurately a modification to the existing law. These continue to be illegal to be carried, but the endorsement increases from 2 penalty points to 6 and the fine will be EUR1500. It can also lead to additional punishment such as a 3 year ban, confiscation of the vehicle, or removal of equipment installed in a vehicle.

Les GPS et autres smartphones sont-ils illégaux ?
Réponse de Maître FARAJALLAH, Avocat au Barreau de Paris (www.cabinet-de-passy.fr) :
Les GPS (Tom Tom et autres) et smartphones indiquant la présence de radars sont aussi concernés par ce nouveau texte : qu’ils soient dans la boîte à gants ou en évidence, ils sont devenus illégaux dès lors qu’ils permettent d’indiquer la présence de radars fixes ou mobiles. Il est donc nécessaire de les mettre à jour ou de désactiver la fonction permettant de connaître la présence des radars fixes ou mobiles sous peine de verbalisation.
Le Ministre de l’intérieur a annoncé qu’une « tolérance pédagogique » serait d’abord mise en place par les forces de l’ordre. La durée de cette tolérance n’a pas été fixée.

GPS such as TomTom or smartphones are also covered by the new law. It is illegal to carry these, either on display or in the glovebox, they are illegal if they indicate the presence of fixed or mobile speed cameras. It is necessary to carry out a software update, or deactivate the function allowing you to detect fixed or mobile speed cameras otherwise you will be fined. The will be a tolerance in place where police will educate, but the duration of this tolerance has not been set.


En pratique, la fouille dans le smartphone ou le GPS par les forces de l’ordre est-elle possible ?
Dans la pratique, les forces de l’ordre n’ont pas le droit de fouiller le téléphone ou le GPS à la recherche de l’infraction. Ce n’est que dans le cas d’une infraction flagrante ou après autorisation judiciaire, qu’une telle possibilité de fouille est possible.
Ainsi, en cas de contrôle routier, les forces de l’ordre ne pourront fouiller l’appareil et se lancer dans son apprentissage à la recherche du délit sans l’assentiment du conducteur.
En revanche, rouler avec une carte des radars imprimée n’a rien d’illégal …

In practice, police will not have the right to search your GPS or smartphone device to determine an infraction. Only in the case of a flagrant offence or following a judicial authorisation, may they be searched. The police cannot search the device without the consent of the driver. Paper maps printed with camera locations are not illegal.

[MisterTommyH]

"Thank you for contacting Garmin Europe.

I am happy to help you with your query Recently the French Government have issued a law banning the use of safety camera warnings on satellite navigation products.

If you are planning on using your Garmin GPS device to navigate within France you will need to make sure that your device is compliant with this new legislation. For furtrher details please go to http://www.garmin.com/uk/extras-camera-alerts/#france."

Blah blah blah

Garmin Europe.

My further e-mail to garmin:

"Thanks for your response, but thearticle you have linked does not state whether it is legal to use my ZUMO660 with the alerts turned off or not?

It simply stated that it is illegal to have a device that is capable of providing alerts, then provide instructions for turning them off.

As I understand it the wording of the legislation is against devices with the capability not whether it is used.

As the manufacturer of my device could you please advise / confirm that using the device with the alerts turned off is legal and will not result in me being fined?"

And the Garmin response:

"Thank you for contacting Garmin Europe.

I am happy to help, I would suggest completely removing them of the device or changing your subscriptions to the danger zone. you can remove them from the device by following the attached guide..........."

So it seems like even the manufacturers are no certain that having them turned off is legal and the safest option is to delete the warnings, or subscribe to the 'danger zone' alternative they have agreed in France. I'll be taking the free option and deleting my cameras - because it annoys me anyway.

[-Ralph-]

I'm happy just to turn off cameras based upon the French article above.