View Full Version : Issue with all pre 2005 Suzuki engines - change to E10 fuel
m1tch_1987
20-01-12, 09:07 PM
Hi guys,
Just read on another bike forum that they are increasing the biofuel % from around 5% to 10% meaning that some engines (both bikes and cars) aren't compatible.
News article is on pistonheads:
http://www.pistonheads.com/news/default.asp?storyId=24900
Uncompatable bikes are found here:
http://www.realclassic.co.uk/techfiles/bioethanol_fuel_study.pdf
The UK Motor Cycle Industry Association and manufacturers and importers of
powered two wheelers into the UK have been contacted to elicit their views on
ethanol in petrol, specifically regarding material compatibility and carburettor icing
[95, 96, 97, 98, 99, 100, 101, 102, 103, 104, 105, 106]. The following is a summary
of the information received:
• Triumph, all Triumph motorcycles have been compatible with E10 since at
least 1994. From 1993 to 2008 nylon moulded fuel tanks were employed
but due to vapour permeability concerns a switch back to steel tanks was
made [96].
• BMW. BMW motorcycles have been E10 compatible for at least twenty
years [107].
• Harley-Davidson. All motorcycles have been E10 compatible since the 90s
[108].
• Kawasaki. Kawasaki Heavy Industries are still considering the effects of
E10 and do not recommend its use [109].
• KTM. All models from 2000 are compatible with E10 [110].
• Yamaha. All models are compatible with E5 and some new models are
compatible with E10 [111].
• Suzuki. All models have been compatible with E10 since 2005 [112].
• Honda. All models have been compatible with E10 since 1993 but
carburettored vehicles could suffer poor drivability [164, 165].
Mrs DJ Fridge
20-01-12, 09:27 PM
I ride a 1999 Ducati Monster, I tried to read the report but it made no sense to me, any advice?
yorkie_chris
20-01-12, 09:40 PM
What's more concerning is the lower calorific value of ethanol and hence less bang for your buck!
You may have to change fuel lines, carb parts and jetting on earlier stuff.
I ride a 1999 Ducati Monster, I tried to read the report but it made no sense to me, any advice?
I think it would take more than 10% ethanol to make a duc less reliable than they are anyway :-P
m1tch_1987
20-01-12, 09:42 PM
Ethonol has a higher octane rating though, thats why the Saab Bioethonol car running E85 out performed the petrol version (well until GM bankrupted them) Hmm maybe I should just run nitromethonol in my SV650 drag kart to avoid this issue? :D yes yes? :D
DJFridge
20-01-12, 09:53 PM
What rating would vodka have then, being 40% ethanol?
Mrs DJ Fridge
20-01-12, 09:58 PM
I think it would take more than 10% ethanol to make a duc less reliable than they are anyway :-P
Maybe not the most reliable bike in the world, but at least she has personality, unlike the SV which is so predictable. Hubby is always laughing like a drain when he follows me down the road at the start of the day because of all the backfiring, at least I keep him amused.
yorkie_chris
20-01-12, 09:58 PM
What rating would vodka have then, being 40% ethanol?
It would make an excellent fuel if you had a monster supercharger, the 60% water would avoid detonation, but you'd need to burn like 5-6x more of it...
m1tch_1987
20-01-12, 10:02 PM
The increase is enthonol basically eats fuel lines, fuel tanks and destroys injectors (if they aren't ethonol safe) plus with carbs they can ice up due to the vaporisation of the fuel - its why drag cars running E85 don't run intercoolers, the fuel itself cools down the intake charge, adding an intercooler running E85 will litterally freeze the fuel out of the air lol
andrewsmith
20-01-12, 10:18 PM
Pulling this back to subject.
There is some waffle in this article (MCN also ran this a couple of months ago), Kawasaki have said bikes since 2001 (i think) are E10 compatible
I would be logical/ fair to say bikes since 2000 ish would be compatible with fuel up to E10 as fuel is 5% ethanol
YC you looked into what damage it does on carb rubbers?
yorkie_chris
20-01-12, 10:22 PM
No idea. I would not worry about rubbers as I'd be happy to try coat them in something ethanol proof. My concern is diaphragms, if it dries out and cracks them then that is a problem.
m1tch_1987
20-01-12, 10:22 PM
I don't think its an issue with the engine properly running per say, but more about the fuel system and fuel delivery, I have a Volvo estate 1.9 diesel and there is a 1.8 direct petrol injection version of my car which would have issues with it due to the injector seals etc and also if the hoses etc degrade then it blocks up stuff further down the pipeline like injectors and fuel pumps, the key issue with carbs is carb icing at certain humidity and temperatures.
Mrs DJ Fridge
20-01-12, 10:23 PM
The increase is enthonol basically eats fuel lines, fuel tanks and destroys injectors (if they aren't ethonol safe) plus with carbs they can ice up due to the vaporisation of the fuel - its why drag cars running E85 don't run intercoolers, the fuel itself cools down the intake charge, adding an intercooler running E85 will litterally freeze the fuel out of the air lol
Back to my original question, what does this mean for me? Do I need to do anything about it?
All replies in basic English please I am not what you could call technically minded.
DarrenSV650S
20-01-12, 10:26 PM
I would be logical/ fair to say bikes since 2000 ish would be compatible with fuel up to E10 as fuel is 5% ethanol
:-s
andrewsmith
20-01-12, 10:39 PM
No idea. I would not worry about rubbers as I'd be happy to try coat them in something ethanol proof. My concern is diaphragms, if it dries out and cracks them then that is a problem.
Cheers mate
Wouldn't the fuel percentage counteract the risks?
Test for performance change would be going through France and running both.
As a note, diesel has had a level of Ethanol in there since 2005 (as the Bio element) and the one issue thats been identified through standby generators day tanks and external tanks is that the fuel can 'split' (the same way cake mixes can) into the diesel and bio elements (with the Bio being heavier diesel) and cause fun to say the least
yorkie_chris
20-01-12, 10:41 PM
Back to my original question, what does this mean for me? Do I need to do anything about it?
All replies in basic English please I am not what you could call technically minded.
Not yet. See what happens when word gets out and people start to see problems (maybe).
m1tch_1987
20-01-12, 10:49 PM
Looks like motorists in Germany are boycotting the E10 fuel:
http://www.time.com/time/world/article/0,8599,2058168,00.html
I've found when riding in France the choice is often between E90 and Super, with a heft premium for the latter. I've not had any problems running on the former, though only for a few days at a time.
My instinct would be to say don't worry about it.
I've found when riding in France the choice is often between E90 and Super, with a heft premium for the latter. I've not had any problems running on the former, though only for a few days at a time.
My instinct would be to say don't worry about it.
Might want to tell that to the Ducati owners in the US whose petrol tanks have been warping so much they no longer sit on the frame properly...
Ethanol is also corrosive to aluminium, which is the primary reason for fuel system incompatibility. It also attracts water, which is a secondary cause of corrosion and won't be great for people that leave their bike standing for any length of time.
The whole idea that ethanol is going to save us is ridiculous anyway, we couldn't possibly produce enough to remove our dependency on oil.
Might want to tell that to the Ducati owners in the US whose petrol tanks have been warping so much they no longer sit on the frame properly...
Does the SV have a plastic tank then? Is it a common feature on pre-2005 Suzukis?
andrewsmith
22-01-12, 08:16 PM
Does the SV have a plastic tank then? Is it a common feature on pre-2005 Suzukis?
it aint, but on bikes post 2005 fuel tanks are commonly plastic
dizzyblonde
22-01-12, 09:21 PM
I gotz a plastic tank.....and summat ain't quite right with it.... think somethings trying to escape through to the outside, and not by normal means!
anyway.....WTF is all this E10 fuel, can someone please enlighten me, please!!
WTF is all this E10 fuel, can someone please enlighten me, please!!
Like normal unleaded, but 10% of the mix is ethanol (bio-fuel). It's meant to be equivalent to the normal stuff, but with more money going to farmers and less to Arab dictators.
andrewsmith
22-01-12, 09:30 PM
I gotz a plastic tank.....and summat ain't quite right with it.... think somethings trying to escape through to the outside, and not by normal means!
anyway.....WTF is all this E10 fuel, can someone please enlighten me, please!!
What's been identified is the plastics commonly used in fuel tanks reacts with E10 and expands the fibres causing them to stop interlocking with each other.
Here's the defects that the case is being built on
http://deformedfueltanks.com/
dizzyblonde
22-01-12, 09:31 PM
I can put up with less money going to arab dictators!
dizzyblonde
22-01-12, 09:33 PM
What's been identified is the plastics commonly used in fuel tanks reacts with E10 and expands the fibres causing them to stop interlocking with each other.
Here's the defects that the case is being built on
http://deformedfueltanks.com/
So thats the Raptor fooked then! It can't even cope with holding normal stuff! As its rather an old type, I'd presume its one that wouldn't cope too well.
Wonder if it could kill off the decrepit Landy too?
andrewsmith
22-01-12, 09:38 PM
So thats the Raptor fooked then! It can't even cope with holding normal stuff! As its rather an old type, I'd presume its one that wouldn't cope too well.
Wonder if it could kill off the decrepit Landy too?
Lou ask the question on the Raptor or cagiva forums they should be able to tell you better than any of us guessing
dizzyblonde
22-01-12, 09:38 PM
Its not come up in topic at all on the Raptor Chapter........ might have to present it!
so, are the fuel company's liable for part replacement etc if it becomes standard fuel in all pumps across the land??
it aint, but on bikes post 2005 fuel tanks are commonly plastic
No they aren't. No Kawasaki road bike has a plastic fuel tank. Triumph have switched back to steel tanks after concerns about ethanol reacting with the nylon they did use. Honda use a few plastic tanks but mainly use steel, very few Suzukis have plastic tanks but the majority are steel. Ducati use mainly aluminium and these have issues with ethanol usage. A few smaller manufacturers use plastic but they are not common makes nor models so production volumes are low. The vast majority of motorcycle fuel tanks are made of steel or aluminium.
To say plastic tanks are common is incorrect. Plastic tanks are uncommon and only used on a very small minority of motorcycles. The biggest culprit would appear to have been Triumph when they were using nylon tanks between 1993 and 2008 on most but not all models.
andrewsmith
22-01-12, 10:24 PM
No they aren't. No Kawasaki road bike has a plastic fuel tank. Triumph have switched back to steel tanks after concerns about ethanol reacting with the nylon they did use. Honda use a few plastic tanks but mainly use steel, very few Suzukis have plastic tanks but the majority are steel. Ducati use mainly aluminium and these have issues with ethanol usage. A few smaller manufacturers use plastic but they are not common makes nor models so production volumes are low. The vast majority of motorcycle fuel tanks are made of steel or aluminium.
To say plastic tanks are common is incorrect. Plastic tanks are uncommon and only used on a very small minority of motorcycles. The biggest culprit would appear to have been Triumph when they were using nylon tanks between 1993 and 2008 on most but not all models.
Lozzo I stand corrected.
Lozzo I stand corrected.
That's fine, sorry if I sounded a bit blunt. In reality I see very few modern bikes of all makes with plastic fuel tanks in our shop.
That's because you only sell bikes from the formerly-best-brand-in-the-world.
dizzyblonde
23-01-12, 10:46 AM
No they aren't. No Kawasaki road bike has a plastic fuel tank.
To say plastic tanks are common is incorrect. Plastic tanks are uncommon and only used on a very small minority of motorcycles. .
ZZR1400 has a plastic tank......well the one you see on top is:rolleyes:
yorkie_chris
23-01-12, 11:07 AM
That's an airbox cover, dunno what the actual tank is made of.
You can get tank sealers which are resistant to alcohol, fairly sure POR-15 is.
dizzyblonde
23-01-12, 11:53 AM
Yes, as I am aware...I was being sarcastic ;)
Actual tank is metal of some description and very prone to corrosion......apparently.
dizzy, didnt your bike have a really bad habit of corroding on the tank? was it the paint failing or the metal underneath?
yorkie_chris
23-01-12, 12:08 PM
There is no metal in that tank, plastic. Just paint bubbling up. Probably nothing to do with ethanol, it is Italian :-P
dizzyblonde
23-01-12, 12:27 PM
I think he was talking to me.....
The problem I have is paint bubbling up all over the place in adverse weather tmeperatures. There is also a very large 'bulge' on the side, where my knees sit. Its not a paint bulge there, its the tank that has deformed.........under information from the links of this thread......it 'may' be possible, it could be some sort of reaction with petrol which is causing it. Nobody has ever seen or heard of a Raptor ever doing this before.....trust me to get the lemon :(
However, theres another owner over on another forum, who maintains pumps on forecourts, this is his thoughts on the matter
I work servicing forecourt equipment and agree with most of the points stated but disagree with the number of stations selling E5 as i would say 90% by now sell it(Scotland is getting it next month). I think the biggest worry for me is phase seperation, This occurs when any water is in the storage tank(or our raptor tank) and the ethanol absorbs this ,if the level gets high enough the ethanol drops out of the mixture to the bottom of the tank(usually where the outlet is and delivered neat to the customer or your fuel pump) not good. I have seen this happen in 8 filling stations so far(broken down vehicles ,written off fuel etc)This is usually quite early in use so if you already have it in your tank you probably wont have a problem(and oddly enough E10 can absorb twice the water E5 will before seperation). So check your tank for water.
Corrosion is probably the next biggest problem and i have seen gaskets and seals disintegrating after E5 which would have lasted for years before it. Dont know about deformation of plastics never seen any.
Another thought on the matter, which ain't good either, as Raptors love to blow up their pumps....
All I know is that the guy who sorts out the Raptor when I can't hates the stuff - after he replaced my fuel pump he noticed so many more pump failures on several different year and make of bikes - the only common factor was the said cheap petrol! Also a common by product of such Eco Bio fuel is cyanide - not good when in an enclosed space dynoing a bike!! http://www.raptorchapter.org.uk/images/smilies/sick.gif
What I really need to do is get the tank drained, but as I have little time due to kiddies, lack of facilities, knowledge and tools, its not going to be happening any time soon :(
AndyBrad
23-01-12, 12:29 PM
this is a worry for me as well as tanks its also not great for old rubber hoses. tbh im not sure what to do about it. Certainally classic cars are an issue as well. I also wonder if things like vpower have a higher ethanol content. I asked shell ages ago when it damaged my tank but got ignored!
I doubt the raptors tank is due to the E10 issue. Are you going to get that looked at? wonder if its full of filler and thus why you get a 85 mile tank range?
dizzyblonde
23-01-12, 12:32 PM
I doubt the raptors tank is due to the E10 issue. Are you going to get that looked at? wonder if its full of filler and thus why you get a 85 mile tank range?
The tank range is normal. That is down to the type of riding. I can get as much as an SV on a long trek on the motorway, it eats fuel as much as my Landy when its having fun, shall we say!
We had quite a lengthy thread about individual tank ranges on the RC a few months back, they all get differing ranges, dependant on whose holding the throttle, and what they are using the bike for.
andrewsmith
23-01-12, 01:22 PM
That's fine, sorry if I sounded a bit blunt. In reality I see very few modern bikes of all makes with plastic fuel tanks in our shop.
It alright mate, my misconception on the tank matter
That's an airbox cover, dunno what the actual tank is made of.
You can get tank sealers which are resistant to alcohol, fairly sure POR-15 is.
From the reading I've done POR-15 is and the Americans rate it over the Kreem, Petriseals etc...
Tim in Belgium
23-01-12, 01:23 PM
A lot of off road bikes have plastic tanks, will this therefore affect them?
I think he was talking to me.....
The problem I have is paint bubbling up all over the place in adverse weather tmeperatures. There is also a very large 'bulge' on the side, where my knees sit. Its not a paint bulge there, its the tank that has deformed.........under information from the links of this thread......it 'may' be possible, it could be some sort of reaction with petrol which is causing it.
Bulges in the tank sounds like the same problem that has afflicted a significant number of Ducati, Aprilia, KTM, Triumph, Moto Guzzi, Bimota and even MZ owners in the US (and probably over here in the not too distant future). If it is the same problem then it will probably get worse over time.
Yes, as I am aware...I was being sarcastic ;)
Actual tank is metal of some description and very prone to corrosion......apparently.
The airbox is actually a part of the frame, the cover at the front of the fuel tank hides some other gubbins. ZZR14 tanks are steel and aren't very prone to corrosion, there were a small handful that had a problem at the point where the seat rubs, that's all.
It's amazing how one small fault gets blown out of all proportion. If you believed the press every GSXR1000 frame is about to snap, every 2004 model ZX10R had the front wheel explode into a million bits and countless other horror stories.
victor_meldrew
23-01-12, 08:54 PM
so, are the fuel company's liable for part replacement etc if it becomes standard fuel in all pumps across the land??
I'd like to think Mr Shell is, but I somehow suspect that this will not be the case ... down to us, again .....
dizzyblonde
23-01-12, 10:12 PM
The airbox is actually a part of the frame, the cover at the front of the fuel tank hides some other gubbins. ZZR14 tanks are steel and aren't very prone to corrosion, there were a small handful that had a problem at the point where the seat rubs, that's all.
It's amazing how one small fault gets blown out of all proportion. If you believed the press every GSXR1000 frame is about to snap, every 2004 model ZX10R had the front wheel explode into a million bits and countless other horror stories.
Same goes for all things Italian too Lozzo ;):rolleyes::p
Jayneflakes
23-01-12, 11:48 PM
A lot of off road bikes have plastic tanks, will this therefore affect them?
My Step Sons Yamaha DT50 has a plastic tank that holds about a thimble full of fuel. I may keep an eye on it once he starts using it! [-X
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