View Full Version : Taught conscious countersteering?
great_kahn
29-01-12, 11:17 PM
In process of learning to ride and was just wondering how many of you were taught to actively countersteer the bike? Or have you picked it up as you have gone along, or is it something you are not aware of and do subconsciously?
Fallout
29-01-12, 11:30 PM
I've picked it up myself, although it's not completely natural for me yet. When I turn left, I subtly lean my body left and put push pressure on my left hand, causing mild counter steer. So it feels quite intuitive now, but I do have to remind myself to do it.
I find a good way to train is to swerve around made up hazards in the road. So I'll spot some road markings or a manhole cover, then swerve using counter steer (just a bit, not dangerously). Works for me to encourage me to do it more.
I had some pretty cool instructors when learning and they taught me a fair bit although ill probably explain it badly. They said come into corner a bit wide then (if your turning right) push down on right handlebar and let the left one pull itself up a bit and the bike will lean itself over and countersteer. Then when you start getting round the corner, you can power out of it. Keep yourself more upright than normal cornering too and just practice.
I had some pretty cool instructors when learning and they taught me a fair bit although ill probably explain it badly. They said come into corner a bit wide then (if your turning right) push down on right handlebar and let the left one pull itself up a bit and the bike will lean itself over and countersteer. Then when you start getting round the corner, you can power out of it. Keep yourself more upright than normal cornering too and just practice.
Same here, good guys on my DAS. Seemed to be happy to spend time letting me practice and giving me pointers.
Did you use BMTC in hambrook?
Same here, good guys on my DAS. Seemed to be happy to spend time letting me practice and giving me pointers.
Did you use BMTC in hambrook?
Yea i did aswell. Great place to learn and they all were very friendly. They say its the best place in England and i'd probably agree :p
Yep, good guys. They got me through my CBT, mod1 & mod2 in the space of four days!
I do have riding experience but all motocross so huge credit to those instructors for banging all my bad habits out of me and getting me a pass.
They taught countersteering on the twisties coming back in from Aust towards Bristol. Good fun but also very useful.
Geodude
30-01-12, 09:07 AM
Wasn't taught it when i was learning as my instructors said it was an advanced riding technique so couldn't teach it. :( i think you do it without realising anyway, i taught myself in empty carparks after watching how on youtube videos :) still dont do it much though.
Hand't heard of it till about 2-3 yrs ago - been riding since 1976................ hit a lot of brick walls tho'
The Idle Biker
30-01-12, 09:23 AM
I was never taught it, never even aware of the term.
I do it all the time now consciously, especially if I feel I'm running wide on a corner.
We all do it though, even if we don't know it, else we'd all be crashing a lot more.
Cymraeg_Atodeg
30-01-12, 09:25 AM
Never taught it, but, do it subconsciously most of the time.
When I am really going at speed, or, when I am messing about at lower speeds I usually do it just to see how it plays about with the bike.
Best time to play with when at a good lean angle, knee down and smoothly apply either way and feel the bike lean into/lift out of the turn and you push/pull one way or another, but, always push on the inside bar!
yorkie_chris
30-01-12, 09:43 AM
I tend to read heavily into everything before I go into it, so I knew about it and understood it before I started riding lessons and suchlike. But I don't remember it being mentioned in training.
Wasn't taught it when i was learning as my instructors said it was an advanced riding technique so couldn't teach it. :( i think you do it without realising anyway,
Couldn't teach it, what a load of BS!! The whole separation between "riding technique" and "advanced riding technique" is a load of bollox brought about by a set of c***s too happy with the superior feeling of their IAM/ADI badge.
It's the only way to steer a bike, consciously or not, you ARE doing it!
yorkie_chris
30-01-12, 09:43 AM
but, always push on the inside bar!
Why?
but, always push on the inside bar!
Why?
Indeed. It works if you pull on the outside bar as well. It's more intuitive to do it on the inside bar, but it works the same whichever way you do it.
Oh and try practising it on a pushbike. It works the same and doesn't cost owt if you drop it.
great_kahn
30-01-12, 12:46 PM
Interesting read, cheers guys, appears majority seem to have come across it of there own accord. God bless you tube eh. Given me something to ponder when choosing a riding school.
johnnyrod
30-01-12, 02:26 PM
I think the idea behind pushing not pulling is that it's easier/quicker to stop pushing than pulling. If you're riding fast then you're only doing a short, (relatively) hard push then release to crank you over. On the road you might do it softer for longer so would make less difference if you push or pull.
I wouldn't totally agree that there is no such thing as an advanced riding technique. Better to say that some things are best taught later you have enough on your mind in the early days. If you think the IAM bike guys can be a bit elitist you should rub shoulders with the car ones. TBH I've mainly found the few of them I've met to okay.
okay 2 anecdotes:
1. sitting in Superbike School level 1 classroom. Who's heard of countersteering? Most people put their hands up. Who doesn't believe it exists? About half of the class put their hands up (these are all experienced riders). Next lesson was take us outside and teach us how to do it properly.
2. riding a quad bike (not very fast) and daydreaming a bit. Quad starts drifitng to the right, hmm, better stop that. OMG it's turnign more and more, what's going on? Hit brakes and warm up brain. Leaning on the outside bar doesn't work on quads to straighten them up. Oops.
2. riding a quad bike (not very fast) and daydreaming a bit. Quad starts drifitng to the right, hmm, better stop that. OMG it's turnign more and more, what's going on? Hit brakes and warm up brain. Leaning on the outside bar doesn't work on quads to straighten them up. Oops.
Jet skis are particularly partial to ignoring countersteering requests and heading in the wrong direction too...
Cymraeg_Atodeg
30-01-12, 04:35 PM
Why?
Indeed. It works if you pull on the outside bar as well. It's more intuitive to do it on the inside bar, but it works the same whichever way you do it.
Oh and try practising it on a pushbike. It works the same and doesn't cost owt if you drop it.
It is to do with bike stability.
I suppose when you are going at "road speeds" and in the centre line of the bike it isn't and issue.
But, on track, when you are really hanging off and hooning around, as all your weight in on the inside of the bike it is better to push on the inside bar that pull on the outside one. You don't then shift the weight balance from inside to outside and it keep the bike more stable
yorkie_chris
30-01-12, 04:38 PM
Pushing/pulling whatever does not move any weight.
Couldn't teach it, what a load of BS!! The whole separation between "riding technique" and "advanced riding technique" is a load of bollox brought about by a set of c***s too happy with the superior feeling of their IAM/ADI badge.
It is true, for some reason DSA doesn't allow instructors to teach it. I've been told about it on my DAS and been recommended advanced training since there are so many things their are not allowed to show / teach us. I'm guessing it may have something to do with the word "counter" which may add confusion for the new and unexperienced rider. Like you said, there's no other way to steer / lean a bike above a certain speed so calling it "counter" doesn't help much.
Best,
Andy
Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk
As for the technique itself, I think pushing on one bar and pulling on the other offers more precision and finesse. There isn't a lot of force involved, you can do it with just one finger if you wouldn't need to control the throttle. Moving your weight on the bike doesn't steer the bike but keeps it more upright for better traction and stability.
Best,
Andy
Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk
yorkie_chris
30-01-12, 05:27 PM
Any instructor who is more concerned with what the DSA say than whether their newly passed student puts their bike through a wall the first time they run in a little hot should be kicked in the knackers!
TheRamJam
30-01-12, 05:34 PM
I wasn't taught countering steering when doing my DAS course. I guess i sort of unconsciously do it whilst riding.
I plan to do some track riding in the summer so I have bought myself a copy of Keith Code's Twist Of The Wrist II DVD and book. Its very comprehensive reading, but hopefully it will give me the advice i need to better undrstand what the bike is doing and what I should be doing on the bike.
Maybe it will make me a better rider. Who knows, but we will see.
I also have digital copies of both book and DVD :-)
Any instructor who is more concerned with what the DSA say than whether their newly passed student puts their bike through a wall the first time they run in a little hot should be kicked in the knackers!
True, but then they only have 3 days to take you from riding a push bike to a 500cc+ engine. If you ask me, no rider with this amount experience is safe or in control on public roads. The real training starts after you passed the absolute minimum requirements DSA test and that's up to the individual how. Advanced training is a natural step towards safety and combined with machine control days and track time, will help develop the skills towards a better rider.
Best,
Andy
Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk
True, but then they only have 3 days to take you from riding a push bike to a 500cc+ engine. If you ask me, no rider with this amount experience is safe or in control on public roads.
Depends how you view it. I see it as more of a neccesity rather than advanced learning.
When i was learning for my CBT and mod 1 and they made you do the slalom, I was automatically switching between countersteering and normal steering what isnt a good combination and was hard for me to understand to begin with.
Anyway my (and dkid413) instructor taught us brilliantly out on some backroads (seperately) how to counter steer and it was not dangerous at all in anyway when i did it. It just feels like turning or another manouvre what is essential to biking.
If an inexperienced newbie comes into a corner too fast and at the wrong angle, counter steering could be the difference between crashing or not as it really turns the bike fast keeping it in control at very high speed and gripping the road so much better.
I think its just if not more important as learning the high speed manouvre in mod 1, and it was much easier to learn than emergency stops.
Big thumbs up to BMTC :thumright::thumright::thumright:
Counter steering is explained so that you become aware and apply a certain amount of control to what your mind already does. Essentially, you can not lean a 2 wheel vehicle above a certain (low) speed without counter steering. We learned counter steering when we were kids and got started on the bicycle.
As for going too hot into a corner, there are quite a few other things just as important as conscious counter steering. It starts with learning to approach the corner at the right speed in the correct position, learning to fight destructive instincts such as chopping the throttle or breaking while leaned over, lifting your vision by looking at the exit point, keeping a positive throttle to increase traction on the rear wheel, move more body weight inside the corner to make the bike more upright and stable and a some other details thought trough advanced training and track time.
You can read about this stuff for free on the internet. Practicing them until they become second nature takes a lot more time than the regular riding school allocates for the DSA test.
-Ralph-
30-01-12, 06:53 PM
Unless you've never exceeded 15-20 mph you countersteer, or you crash. Whether on a pushbike or a Harley. You learned to do it at about 5 years old when you wobbled and fell off your pushbike. The act of consciously pushing or pulling with greater force, just makes the bike lean and turn quicker.
(Reply to max cos ralph just bumped his post :p)
Yea its true but there are far too many hot heads and youths who do DAS, get a bike then kill themselves. They should have been riding slower, better positioned and etc but they dont and i think its just a useful thing to learn to help in an emergency situation, just like the emergency stops and the manouvres.
Even if it only saves 1 or 2 idiots a year, i think its worth it, although darwin would disagree :p
As i've said, I really rated the guys at BMTC but I have to agree with Maxinc when he says " The real learning starts once you've passed your test."
Never a truer word spoken. Don't think any of us were anywhere near the complete rider one day after tearing up the L plates.
DJFridge
30-01-12, 09:51 PM
As others have said, if you don't countersteer to a degree without thinking about it, you will fall off. I do also consciously add a bit of extra pressure on the inside handle sometimes, maybe to tighten up a corner a bit. I was taught conscious countersteering by all the instructors that I had for "big bike" lessons - it never occurred to me that they might not be supposed to.
++ In fact, while I've been typing the next stuff, I was thinking back and it even came up on my CBT. Anyway, back to where I was. ++
Mind you, I didn't really do the DAS as such. I did my CBT, then some follow up lessons on the NSR. Then did a couple of lessons on 500s. I didn't want to do one of the "DAS in a week" courses, partly because I couldn't afford the cost in money or hours off work, but also because I learned to drive in a week and I'm not sure I'd recommend it. So I learned to ride day-to-day on the NSR and then had a lesson on a 500 to assess how I was doing and refine my technique. On those lessons, countersteering was as important as road position or hazard anticipation - it just became part of how I rode. A month or so of that and I felt comfortable on a range of bikes and ready to take my test.
Personally I find it hard to believe that instructors would be told not to teach countersteering right from the beginning. Something that you do unconsciously anyway isn't an "advanced technique", it's a basic skill. Of course they should teach it although, maybe teach is the wrong word. Make aware of is probably better. Not teaching it is like not teaching you to lean, because knee-sliding is advanced.
countersteering. everyone does it naturally as if you never you would crash on every corner. forced countersteering is when you actively input more pressure to the bar to tip in quicker.
Couldn't teach it, what a load of BS!! The whole separation between "riding technique" and "advanced riding technique" is a load of bollox brought about by a set of c***s too happy with the superior feeling of their IAM/ADI badge.
It's the only way to steer a bike, consciously or not, you ARE doing it!
Haha... saved me the bother of typing the same kind of thing.
FWIW, I think actively teaching newbies to countersteer is a bloody stupid idea and only encourages them to over-react to situations. It's all too easy for someone with insufficient experience to overdo the amount of pressure they put on the bars and end up on their ar5e when the front tucks. If they'd been left to just ride the bike they'd be in a better position to react, rather than have their heads filled with crap they don't need to know about.
As Chris said; everybody countersteers as it's the only way to get a bike round a corner, so stop thinking about doing it and just ride as normal.
johnnyrod
02-02-12, 08:22 AM
I think that's one of the problems with the swerve test? People chucking it down the road. In reality the bars move less than a degree so easy to overdo it. I'd disagree with "just get on with it" as I've seen plenty of experienced people who don't understand that they are doing it (and deny it even exists as well) and can't change direction much faster than if they were tipping into a tight bend. Beyond newbie stage it's well worth getting a proper handle on - maybe that's missing your point, not sure.
yorkie_chris
02-02-12, 09:27 AM
People bin it on swerve because they keep the brakes on and try to swerve
SUPERSTARDJ01
02-02-12, 02:31 PM
Taught it while doing IAM.
yorkie_chris
03-02-12, 09:22 AM
Haha... saved me the bother of typing the same kind of thing.
FWIW, I think actively teaching newbies to countersteer is a bloody stupid idea and only encourages them to over-react to situations. It's all too easy for someone with insufficient experience to overdo the amount of pressure they put on the bars and end up on their ar5e when the front tucks. If they'd been left to just ride the bike they'd be in a better position to react, rather than have their heads filled with crap they don't need to know about.
As Chris said; everybody countersteers as it's the only way to get a bike round a corner, so stop thinking about doing it and just ride as normal.
My thought on it is if they said to people when they'd passed their test "here's a tip for you mate, if you run hot into a corner, don't brake, just lean on the inside bar", I reckon they'd save a lot of crashes.
Oh and obviously have instructors who understand physics enough to make a reasoned response to someone asking why...
andrewsmith
03-02-12, 11:51 AM
Haha... saved me the bother of typing the same kind of thing.
FWIW, I think actively teaching newbies to countersteer is a bloody stupid idea and only encourages them to over-react to situations. It's all too easy for someone with insufficient experience to overdo the amount of pressure they put on the bars and end up on their ar5e when the front tucks. If they'd been left to just ride the bike they'd be in a better position to react, rather than have their heads filled with crap they don't need to know about.
As Chris said; everybody countersteers as it's the only way to get a bike round a corner, so stop thinking about doing it and just ride as normal.
Agree with Lozzo on this.
We wern't "taught" it as part of the lessons, but the two or three of us that were learning at the same (and doing big miles of 125's) were shown it as pillions on a very twisty stretch at the back of mine, then on the industrial estate near the centre.
Taught it while doing IAM.
It was explained to me- followed by don't read into it too far as you do it
Red Herring
03-02-12, 11:51 AM
My thought on it is if they said to people when they'd passed their test "here's a tip for you mate, if you run hot into a corner, don't brake, just lean on the inside bar", I reckon they'd save a lot of crashes.
Oh and obviously have instructors who understand physics enough to make a reasoned response to someone asking why...
They would save a whole lot more by concentrating on teaching riders not to get into trouble in the first place, rather than prescribing one option that may not be the best solution to the problem.
I do understand why DAS don't teach it as part of the syllabus. It's not part of the test and if you start complicating things with the physics of how a bike works you will overload the pupil. Where do you want to stop? I mean, weight transfer, gyro effect......all equally important and things you must understand if you want to push a bike to it's limits, but none of them are as important as roadcraft, ie: reading the road, traffic and understanding hazards.
johnnyrod
03-02-12, 12:27 PM
True but you don't need to understand the complicated stuff, you just need to understand that if you push this then it goes there. We all know you can ride around gently half-asleep and be oblivious that you're doing it. Try to dodge a brick in the road and thinking you can do it with a bit of moving your weight around and you're going to run over a brick.
I do agre though that you're more likely to get yourself out of (stay out of) trouble by better observation and road skills than one (importnat) machine skill.
Oh look, a thread on countersteering that won't die. Shall we invade Poland?
counter steering is like our very own 'off side rule' ;-). You always have been countersteering otherwise you would fall off.
Very rare I've ever found the need to adjust a line urgently while road riding, but on the track it came in very handy, almost essential in some corner combinations that you could force the bike to change direction much more quickly.
Pulling vs pushing, technically no difference and likely that you do both as I would be surprised if you are countersteering with only one hand on the bars! (although I've seen a one armed racer doing just fine against his two handed competitors). Personally I always found that pushing gently on the inside bar was easier to do precisely.
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