Solar Power

[Dicky Ticker]

I am now officially saving the Polar Bears---and next doors cat just for good measure.
Hopefully small electric bills from now on and a bit of money back for what we put into the grid:)

[Balky001]

Just in time too. Doesn't the tariff reduce 1st week of March?

I was thinking about panels but we'll probably move again in next few years. Did you have to have the roof reinforced or was it OK? Free leccy and payment from the Gov, can't be bad!

[Dicky Ticker]

I've got the higher tariff and never had to make any structural alterations to the house so all good for me even if it was getting in at the last knockings.

[Balky001]

better in than out DT ;)

[454697819]

another unsightly installation of a product that will not save the planet,

sorry, tar and same brush and all that but these quick fix green measures are getting intolerable

devils advocate / PITA mode off

[NTECUK]

another unsightly installation of a product that will not save the planet,

sorry, tar and same brush and all that but these quick fix green measures are getting intolerable

devils advocate / PITA mode off
What makes you say that?
How much damage / CO is produced in the manufacture of panelles?

[SoulKiss]

another unsightly installation of a product that will not save the planet,

sorry, tar and same brush and all that but these quick fix green measures are getting intolerable

devils advocate / PITA mode off

+1

I am just waiting for the outcry when, in the nearish future, the promised rewards/savings of these things fail to materialise in a way covered by the get-out clause in the small print.

Instead of discriminatory schemes like this (I dont have a roof to hang panels off if I wanted to), they should just be building more Nuclear Power Stations in a new Government Energy Company, which would allow them, through competition, to control the energy prices.

[EssexDave]

Or research into nuclear fusion?

[SoulKiss]

Or research into nuclear fusion?

We need the power now, not in "pick a number from the air" years/decades time.

In fact we need it about 10 years ago, which if the Fission plants had been built under a Government Scheme with them getting profits/control, would mean electricity would be so much cheaper than it is now.

[Dicky Ticker]

A lot of if's and but's -----in today's world how else can I reduce my electric bill,not some proposition that might happen if planners get their fingers out.Then we get the protests about it being built on somebody's doorstep.My panels can never cause the chaos like Long Island,Japan or Chernobyl. Not withstanding what you do with the spent fuel rods and the time to decommission a site.

Even if they start building nuclear power stations now by the time they are completed and on grid the price of electricity will have gone up by so much that the reduction will not even bring it back to today's price. I have taken action now that benefits me and is guaranteed for the next ten years---and I am a muppet?

[-Ralph-]

Uncle has just done the same. They cost £12k, he'll get smaller bills, and he's getting paid for what he puts back into the grid.

He reckons it's a 10 year return on investment, and at current interest rates better than leaving the money in the bank. He had them on his last two houses as well, so must have been solar for 15-20 years now, so he knows what benefits have or haven't materialised.

I'd also like to see some reasoning behind the claim that solar panels are a waste of time.

If everybody had them we'd be drawing 50% less power as a nation from the grid. Whatever you think the positive benefits are/aren't, how can that be a negative?

[LankyIanB]

They're not necessarily a waste of time from a personal economic standpoint. With the levels of subsidy that were on offer they were quite tempting....

However if you think you're saving the planet, dream on! With a bit of luck the Global Warming Scam will properly fall apart in the near future and the truth will come out that CO2 has pretty much naff all effect on climate.

As for saving next doors cat.... I'd need more data on the cat...

Sits back waits for reaction.....

[-Ralph-]

the truth will come out that CO2 has pretty much naff all effect on climate.

Sits back waits for reaction.....

You know what I'm going to ask for don't you ;)

What's your evidence that CO2 has no effect on the climate?

[LankyIanB]

This (http://wattsupwiththat.com/2012/02/22/omitted-variable-fraud-vast-evidence-for-solar-climate-driver-rates-one-oblique-sentence-in-ar5/) is a nice little starter overview - some useful links to follow to more detailed info especially on the solar effects on climate.

The whole site is quite a mine of information. It's a well known "denier" site but well worth a read.

Note that I didn't say CO2 has "no" effect, I said " pretty much naff all effect" there is most likely an effect but it's no way as significant as it's been hyped up to be.

The data on this page sums it up quite nicely - http://wattsupwiththat.com/widget/ CO2 continuing to rise, temperature stable, starting to decline...? And that's just since 1979.

http://wattsupwiththat.com/2011/05/30/skeptic-strategy-for-talking-about-global-warming/ is also quite a good read

enjoy!

[Teejayexc]

Slightly off topic, but do any of you remember when the government was extolling the virtues of the diesel car and how much cheaper diesel was in conparison* to petrol ?

Now, what's the price of diesel ?

Just saying.

*intentional misspell. ;-)

[pookie]

I personally want to see those polar bears we're saving.. did you go for a local company or a national ?

[Paul the 6th]

I can't remember the exact figures, but I ran the AV on a conference about 'heritage buildings' in York a few months back, and one of the speakers on the conference was asked a question about PV (the 'in the know' name for solar panels = photo voltaic) panels - he errupted and started spouting about the amount of energy required/carbon generated to produce one domestic sized PV panel will take 50* years the the carbon to be offest by the 'green energy' generated from the PV..

Bit like building a nice hybrid car which doesn't give out CO or CO2 but the production process for the car's giant battery produced 10x* more carbon than the entire footprint of a conventional fossil fuelled car..

*= again, these are just numbers for postings sake, not actual facts or figures from teh internet..

[yorkie_chris]

You're better off running about in a mark 3 land rover than a prius :)


Though I am suspicious of "amount of carbon", my mate had too much time on his hands once over and worked one of these statistics out compared to the actual price of oil or coal... they are either getting cheaper than market price or someones lying.

[Paul the 6th]

Yeah there's the 'dust to dust' research publish a few years ago in whatcar magazine and it turned out that a jeep wrangler had a lower life time carbon footprint from production to scrapping, than a prius/generic hybrid, simply because the jeep used simple panels pressed in aluminium and a simple petrol engine with simple components, where the hybrid had this superduper electric cell and was really heavy so used more tyres.. And what about in 10 years when the warrranty on the prius battery expires? Watch those hybrid prices plummet!

Anywho back on topic. Congrats on your PV's..

[flymo]

I have to admit, I don't give too much of a fuss about carbon footprint saving. I do however care greatly about my electricity bill and the apparent uncontrollable trend upwards in the cost of the energy.

On a good sunny day I'm now generating about double what we actually use which is fantastic. The numbers are real, despite the various doubts over long term viability, there's nothing imaginary about my electricity meter whizzing backwards.

I've been logging energy meter readings weekly since before we installed PV, sad perhaps but really the only way to properly compare before and after. What I see is a huge reduction in energy consumption since installation, obviously slowed down during the winter months but already turning positive again.

[Paul the 6th]

does the electricity meter really go backwards? :D

[flymo]

does the electricity meter really go backwards? :D

Yep, if you have the traditional type with the spinning disc. Newer smart meters dont as they are able to track how much comes in vs how much goes out.

But yeah, on a sunny day my meter reading reduces.

[Owenski]

See I've long been in the camp of "pointless gambit designed to benifit only the manufacturer" but having had to be educated on them for work I've learnt that although that initial statement isnt correct its very much one sided.
If you or I buy PV then you or I will save some pennies over the lifespan of the panel (1) by comparrison to if we remained grid fed. BUT if you think you're saving the planet then you're sadly mistaken, the evidence is over whelming that production of these systems uses more carbon than they can offset during a lifetime.

So if you want to save some money between now and the next 15years of your life then go for it, but if you want to save the planet then invest in a ground sourse heat pump.

Sustainability is a proper biatch as a module to study!

(1) assumed lifespan of an installation is between 10 and 15years dependant on a number of factors.

[flymo]

if you are interested in saving the planet, get rid of your car before worrying about solar.

[-Ralph-]

Most people are only interested in saving the planet, when it saves them some money, or makes them look or feel good.

[Paul the 6th]

If it makes any difference I always fold the toilet paper in half so I can wipe twice with the same wad..

"save the world by saving a wad"

[suzukigt380paul]

Uncle has just done the same. They cost £12k, he'll get smaller bills, and he's getting paid for what he puts back into the grid.

He reckons it's a 10 year return on investment, and at current interest rates better than leaving the money in the bank. He had them on his last two houses as well, so must have been solar for 15-20 years now, so he knows what benefits have or haven't materialised.

I'd also like to see some reasoning behind the claim that solar panels are a waste of time.

If everybody had them we'd be drawing 50% less power as a nation from the grid. Whatever you think the positive benefits are/aren't, how can that be a negative?yes but the only trouble is that the rest of us are subsidizing these hair brain schemes,wind solar etc that in the real world wont ever make money,and we arn't talking about general taxation we are talking about the extra we all pay on our electric bills,cant remember the exact amount but out of the total we pay for electric something like over half aint for the electric,and this goes back to the beginning of nuclear when we had a 10% levy put on our bills coz nuclear cost more to produce electric,and in anycase there is a sh*t load of oil in the antartic yet to be tapped into

[seedy100]

+1

I am just waiting for the outcry when, in the nearish future, the promised rewards/savings of these things fail to materialise in a way covered by the get-out clause in the small print.

Instead of discriminatory schemes like this (I dont have a roof to hang panels off if I wanted to), they should just be building more Nuclear Power Stations in a new Government Energy Company, which would allow them, through competition, to control the energy prices.

Yea! Someone else who can see the blinding obvious solution hidden behind a screen of scaremongering and ignorance

- runs and hides in bunker to shelter from anticipated shower of green boll----

[Paul the 6th]

So apart from the hideous costs of decommissioning a nuclear plant & 'responsibily' disposing of the left over glowing green mush, what else is stopping us using nuclear power? Is it just off the back of disasters like Chernobyl & fukushima?

[yorkie_chris]

You should all read "State of Fear" by Micheal Crighton :)

[Bibio]

puts tinfoil hat on.

we could all have relatively clean free electricity. if you don't believe me go and look up some of the things Tesla invented.

[yorkie_chris]

puts tinfoil hat on.

we could all have relatively clean free electricity. if you don't believe me go and look up some of the things Tesla invented.

Show me one that isn't complete bullsh*t...

Like tesla turbine, boundary layer effect turbine, sounds dead fancy... people say it makes free energy. Does it buggery, it obeys exact same thermodynamic principles as the rest of the world. Tesla invented it as a way to extract motive power from hot air or steam. Perpetual motion though, nah. He wasn't a bloody moron...

Many many conmen trying to separate the gullible from their money.

[suzukigt380paul]

puts tinfoil hat on.

we could all have relatively clean free electricity. if you don't believe me go and look up some of the things Tesla invented.not saying battery/electric hasnt got a place, and although it doesnt produce pollution,the power stations that produce the electric do,and ofcourse if you are driving more then 50 to 100 miles a day you will have to stop for up to 24 hours to get a full charge,and about every 4 years splash out about 10k for new batteries,so battery cars are at the moment a flawed substitute for petrol/ diesel
oh i stand corrected the 100 000 dollar sports car from telsa will do 300 miles at 55mph(sports car!) on a charge and take 4 hours to recharge,mind you its a 70 amp charger,so thats a big old socket it runs off

[embee]

Recently did a little bit of work for a (big) company developing its own "range extender" engine for electric vehicles (EV). Think 30kW "backup" engine which will avoid you getting stranded in your EV when the batteries run flat.

Their very detailed energy study showed that there was effectively no net CO2 difference between this type of vehicle and a small diesel car in general use, but the "fashion" is for EV to shift the CO2 burden to the electricity generators, effectively hiding it. The running cost per mile works out lower because the source fuel doesn't have the excise duty and VAT applied in the same way as road fuel, if it did the costs would be about the same. This is effectively the same as burning red diesel in a static generator to generate electricity to charge your vehicle batteries so you can drive on the road, no duty on the diesel even though that's where the energy comes from.

[yorkie_chris]

Except the colossal waste of energy in carting half a tonne of batteries around with you everywhere!

[thefallenangel]

If we all cared about energy and green, we would all consume 30% less which we all could realistically do and everyone would micro-generate with either wind, solar, gorund source, putting kids on push bikes connected to generators.

[Paul the 6th]

What's all this ground source jazz everyone's going on about?

[Jabba]

Had our leccy bill a couple of days ago.

Our 2.16kWh system knocked about £85 off our utility bill in January; estimated but within a couple of kWh.

Will be better than this when the longer/sunnier days arrive (hopefully :-))

[grimey121uk]

The true way to save money and be "green" is to stop buyin new stuff and only replace an item once it's trashed and beyond repair.

A car emits most of its co2 during production so buying a new car to get 10% better economy is a flawed idea in terms of pollution and saving money. A friend of mine upgraded to a new car at a cost of 7 grand to save 40 quid a month on fuel

[thefallenangel]

The true way to save money and be "green" is to stop buyin new stuff and only replace an item once it's trashed and beyond repair.

A car emits most of its co2 during production so buying a new car to get 10% better economy is a flawed idea in terms of pollution and saving money. A friend of mine upgraded to a new car at a cost of 7 grand to save 40 quid a month on fuel

Depends on what happens to your old vehicle. If your old vehicle is broken down and either parts used in other cars or recycled then is it less green?

[grimey121uk]

Depends on what happens to your old vehicle. If your old vehicle is broken down and either parts used in other cars or recycled then is it less green?

Even if it's recycled it still takes a huge amount of energy to make it into a new car. My point is if people really cared about he environment they wouldn't be swapping electrical goods every 5 mins, buying a new car every 3 years etc

If You want to be green go out and buy a second hand dodge viper and laugth at anyone with a new prius

Also when people with solar panels say "I got 50 quid of free electric this month" no you havnt you have just knocked 50quid off the 10 grand the panels owe you.

[thefallenangel]

I agree on the panels and when it comes to the cars i agree as most cars between 3-6 years are still problem free providing they have been well looked after. My dad has a 1.5dci megane which has had an air con switch and window regulator gone on a 7 year old car and 100k in 4 years of ownership. However i work for a company which has 8-14 year old vans which are gonna keep the scrap companies in business for a while and should of been gone at least 3 years ago. So it's on feasability, if something is shagged then replace it, but if it will keep going without being too cost ineffective then keep it.

[Dicky Ticker]

Dear Boris,I have tried to save on the pollution in London but I think that by charging £200 per day for ECO 3 thereby forcing me to buy three new vehicles when the old ones were still below the new pollution levels IS SLIGHTLY COUNTER PRODUCTIVE.

All very well recycling or running till completely beyond repair but when you get stupid rules like London[and no doubt other cities will follow] it is not a viable situation to run a vehicle which is probably only half way through its working life.
Yes you can fit the new exhaust systems at £3500 per time plus additional service costs but add down time and the extra maintenance it actually works out cheaper to replace the vehicle.

[Nobbylad]

yes but the only trouble is that the rest of us are subsidizing these hair brain schemes,wind solar etc that in the real world wont ever make money,and we arn't talking about general taxation we are talking about the extra we all pay on our electric bills,cant remember the exact amount but out of the total we pay for electric something like over half aint for the electric,and this goes back to the beginning of nuclear when we had a 10% levy put on our bills coz nuclear cost more to produce electric,and in anycase there is a sh*t load of oil in the antartic yet to be tapped into

On a similar note, a few years ago, a few mates and I started investing in shares in Oil Exploration co's in the Falkland Island basin.

We had Desire, Rockhopper and other co's in our portfolios. Now admittedly, I pulled most of my holdings when Desire hit 'a duster' on their first drill, but then Rock struck oil and the share price went from something like 30p to £3 in a day. It's gone as high as a fiver but is around £4 now I think and to be honest, I don't look any more because one of my mates basically ploughed everything he had into these shares, his pension accruals, savings, everything and is now probably more than a millionaire, whereas I had a modest holding (they'd hit 12p I think at one point) and made a few quid, but nothing to retire on.

I think Desire were about £1.12 and they're now in the 30-40p bracket, but it just goes to show that, ironically, £12k on solar panels might give you a fair return on investment over say, 10yrs, however, the opportunity cost of that, means that you've tied your capital up for that period whereas if you're risk averse, it kinda makes sense, if you're a crazy mo fo looking to blow it all on a spin of the wheel, to potentially make a shed load investing in oil and gas companies as they extend their ability to extract resources from previously unobtainable supplies.

[yorkie_chris]

What's all this ground source jazz everyone's going on about?

Really cool.

They're what's called heat pumps, exactly the same as a fridge. Just moving heat from one form to another. On a cold day there is still heat energy, you absorb this into an even colder fluid, then compress it all into a small space so it gets hot.

Theoretically the performance is CP = Th / Th - Tc, so on a cold day, 0C, and a toasty 40C radiator temperature 313 / 313 - 273 = 7.83

Which is cool, it means for every KWh worth of work done* by the pump you get 7.83x as much heat out of it.

*N.B the pump/motor combination is inefficient, so real to life CPs are around 3 AFAIK.

The ground source thing means you put a coil of pipe in the ground, below where frost will penetrate to in winter. This increased temperature means a higher coefficient of performance.

This is as free energy as thermodynamics allow, but they do work.

You can also run them backwards to keep the place cool in summer.


If you really wanted performance you'd drive a small stationary engine on natural gas to drive the heat pump, and use various methods to recover the heat lost from the engine.

[Nobbylad]

I've wanted something like that for ages, I saw them install one on a new build and they only went down about 6-8ft from memory, maybe even shallower.

Also saw something that takes heat out of the ambient air temperature and uses that in a similar way.

[yorkie_chris]

The problem is that makes the Th - Tc term in that there equation a lot bigger, so you lose a lot of performance. And, likely form a great deal of ice in winter.

[embee]

I think you're right YC, typical ratio is around 3 with current heat pump systems.

Ideally you need a steady renewal of heat at the source, which points towards either water or, what appears to be a good real-world practical solution, air. Air sourced heat pumps aren't as efficient as water, but if you haven't got a lake or river in your garden then it can make sense. They're using them in Scandinavia, so low ambient temps aren't a show stopper, and installation costs are pretty sensible. It's just a "fridge" after all.

Ground sourced systems need a very long pipe run so the heat flux per unit length from the ground to the pipe is fairly low, enabling the heat to keep coming from the surrounding ground. Very expensive to install but work well once there.

[metalangel]

Most people are only interested in saving the planet, when it saves them some money, or makes them look or feel good.

Such as exagerrating it to 'saving' the planet, as opposed to 'trying to prevent it becoming uninhabitable by humans'. Earth isn't going anywhere.

[Paul the 6th]

It's going somewhere metal angel.. Apparently our little planet orbits the sun at 67,000 mph & we're rotating around our galaxy's centre at 490,000 mph..

Where we're going, we don't need roads :cool:

[Owenski]

Really cool.

They're what's called heat pumps, exactly the same as a fridge. Just moving heat from one form to another. On a cold day there is still heat energy, you absorb this into an even colder fluid, then compress it all into a small space so it gets hot.

Theoretically the performance is CP = Th / Th - Tc, so on a cold day, 0C, and a toasty 40C radiator temperature 313 / 313 - 273 = 7.83

Which is cool, it means for every KWh worth of work done* by the pump you get 7.83x as much heat out of it.

*N.B the pump/motor combination is inefficient, so real to life CPs are around 3 AFAIK.

The ground source thing means you put a coil of pipe in the ground, below where frost will penetrate to in winter. This increased temperature means a higher coefficient of performance.

This is as free energy as thermodynamics allow, but they do work.

You can also run them backwards to keep the place cool in summer.


If you really wanted performance you'd drive a small stationary engine on natural gas to drive the heat pump, and use various methods to recover the heat lost from the engine.

Bob on!

Small pump capable of running from a roof mounted mini wind turbine is all this system ever needs, yes it needs batteries to charge up but there are systems available for sale which used decomissioned miliraty batteries (often Navy units). These have a life span far greater than the system and as such its a very "green" resource.

The coil of hose within the ground doesnt need to be perticularly deep but its does need to be below the depth of frost penetration. The great part is that during the summer months the sun heats the earth this is only a few degrees but in winter our soil is acutally a lot warmer than the air above ground and therefore thanks to the coefficents which Chris states you get ample heat from the pump which is then fed around your house just like a central heating system.
Its a genuinely brilliant system which IMHO should he standard in all new builds within my professional lifetime.

[Owenski]

The problem is that makes the Th - Tc term in that there equation a lot bigger, so you lose a lot of performance. And, likely form a great deal of ice in winter.

Less bob on, the water is often an anti-freeze mix.
There are options to have it as the hot water in your house but Im not sure if thats another heat transfer process or if you simply cannot therefore use anti-freeze.

Im not sure of the "sales" bias but this link was one used for my study.
http://www.energysavingtrust.org.uk/Generate-your-own-energy/Ground-source-heat-pumps

[metalangel]

It's going somewhere metal angel.. Apparently our little planet orbits the sun at 67,000 mph & we're rotating around our galaxy's centre at 490,000 mph..

Where we're going, we don't need roads :cool:

LOL. What I mean is the planet will carry on whether we're here to see it or not. Life will continue, in some form, whether we're here or not.

Short of detonating the planet into chunks (which we couldn't do) we can't 'destroy' the planet any more than we can 'save' it. Being all 'green' is about ensuring our species' survival. If that happens to include other ones, so much the better.

[Paul the 6th]

But wasps are the devils rejects?

[yorkie_chris]

Less bob on, the water is often an anti-freeze mix.
There are options to have it as the hot water in your house but Im not sure if thats another heat transfer process or if you simply cannot therefore use anti-freeze.

Im not sure of the "sales" bias but this link was one used for my study.
http://www.energysavingtrust.org.uk/Generate-your-own-energy/Ground-source-heat-pumps

I mean ice forming on the cold coils, not in them.
However if a practical solution has been found I'm not arguing with that.

Regarding the anti freeze, I believe the systems are generally a couple of different "loops" of fluid, water/antifreeze to transfer heat and then gas/vapour inside the unit to do the work.

[Owenski]

we dont need no education, teachers! leave those kids alone!

[xXBADGERXx]

Show me one that isn't complete bullsh*t...

Like tesla turbine, boundary layer effect turbine, sounds dead fancy... people say it makes free energy. Does it buggery, it obeys exact same thermodynamic principles as the rest of the world. Tesla invented it as a way to extract motive power from hot air or steam. Perpetual motion though, nah.


Easy , Strap Buttered toast to a Cat`s back , Then fit a shaft to the Cat that is then fixed to some Magnety Generatory type things , then hold the Cat upside down and then "Drop" it . The Cat will spin to land on it`s feet , but the falling Toast on it`s back will want to land Butter side down . The Toast will flip the Cat , the Cat will flip to counter this ............ Bingo :smt040

[Jackie_Black]

I'm so glad someone is doing something to offset the 6 litres of petrol engines i'm running at the moment. Than you so much.

[flymo]

nice sunny day today, we've been generating over 3kW for most of this morning...

[tigersaw]

Was reading my back copies of new scientist from 1975 yesterday at work.
Amongst the debates on LCD vs LED watches, when will the 50mph NSL end, congress telling yank car makers they must exceed 20mpg by 1980, an article about ground source heating will be standard on all houses by the next century.

[flymo]

so technically we are saying that global warming is a good thing, install ground source heating and drive bigger bikes and cars :-) result!