View Full Version : When to start advanced training?
On the back of the current feelings that are very much to the fore at present I'd like to pose the above question.
When to start advanced training?
Is there an obvious time to start it, or is it does it really vary from rider to rider? Should it be an almost continous thing from the moment you throw your leg over till you've attained your Gold badge and beyond? Is it wise to pass your test then go straight onto an IAM or RoSPA, or should you bed in the skills you've gained in passing your test? But if you do that are you in a limbo when you are more vulnerable?
Bad habits; an aside to the above and something for us all to consider(?). My worst habit is being a car driver on the bike. I do 30,000+ miles a year in the car, so reading the road isn't difiicult... but is that true for when I'm on the bike? Braking in traffic... could do better. Positioning on the road... could do better. And so on...
So just what stops so many of us finding the time for further training? Laziness? Arrogance? Cost? Fear of embarrassment?
What would you pay so your wife/husband/parents/children didn't have to visit you in hospital/cemetery?
Everyone should make their own choices in life but those choices should be tempered by our responsibilities to our loved ones.
Done my first bikesafe after 1.5 year on the bike.
I thought I knew a lot (everything), but the training proved to be very informative and I was surprised how much I've learned.
Now in my 6th year of riding, again I feel like I know a lot (not everything though) and I'm attending another BS training in a few days.
The traffic coppers are amazing riders and instructors.
What would you pay so your wife/husband/parents/children didn't have to visit you in hospital/cemetery?
Sorry but that just sounds like a very distasteful sales line :/
Bluefish
23-03-12, 08:12 PM
I'd say about a year after passing the test would be appropriate, if one wanted further training, once you had had a bit of time on the road.
Icanopit
23-03-12, 08:12 PM
Simples. NO time like the present!!!!
andrewsmith
23-03-12, 08:21 PM
Simples. NO time like the present!!!!
This
Did mine after about 18 months on the bike
i would say i'm a safe/alert/competent rider and have been told numerous times by fellow riders. the only bad habit i have is self control, every time i see or know a nice set of bends are ahead of me i'm like a ferret up a drain pipe as i love cornering. am i arrogant saying that i'm a good rider? yes and until people turn round and stop saying so then i will continue doing what i do. i am by no means perfect but none of us are as we all have out own quirks and bad habits.
will it be the death of me if i do not take advanced riding lessons, possibly but i personally don't care. if i die on the bike i will die happy enjoying what i love. i have no fear of dying as it comes to us all at some point so i enjoy life NOW. yes it would affect my family severely if i died as it would mean the complete collapse of my household.
am i selfish! well if you know me then you would say NO WAY. i would say YES to a degree as i should theoretically give up biking for my family's sake.
every rider is different and has a different range of skills. knowing your limits is one of the biggest skills you will ever learn. no matter how much training you have, if you can't put that training into practise then what's the point in spending more money in something you can't learn. by all means if anyone feels the need to take advanced riding lessons then DO SO as if you have decided or are even thinking of them then you must know that you need them.
kellyjo
23-03-12, 08:24 PM
My OH asked me today what I wanted for my bday next month, think I might be asking for IAM. I had a couple of 'iffy' moments last year and both were 100% my fault. Ive ridden for 3 years and clocked up about 17000 miles and have picked up many bad habits im sure. Seems like the right time.
Red Herring
23-03-12, 08:37 PM
I went to my first IAM meeting whilst still on my 125 with L plates. It's never to early. That was over 25 years ago and I'm still learning. It doesn't matter if you go the IAM route, Rospa, Bikesafe or with a professional outfit like Rapid Training, the language, principals and application are all the same. Just pick which suits you best and enjoy it.
What I loved about the IAM is that they give a good baseline to build upon. Passing the IAM test doesn't mean much as it is not the end of the learning process by far. If anything, it only opened my eyes as to how much there is to learn and encouraged me to seek further training.
I think the system they teach requires the rider to be comfortable and in complete control of the bike which I think takes a few months of getting used to after passing the DSA test. I think somewhere on the IAM website said's something like at least 6 months after passing the test.
For new riders, is especially good since they don't have "bad" habits to change. But as it has been said, no better time than now.
Red Herring
23-03-12, 08:50 PM
You need to bear in mind there are some politics around the IAM six month rule. You don't have to have been riding 6 months to join a group and start your training, you just can't take you test straight away.
carelesschucca
23-03-12, 09:00 PM
I did my training IAM within four months of passing my test I was trained before I picked up any bad ideas. Didn't sit my test with them for a good while as they made a mess of my application. When London phoned me they thought I was going to be sitting my test in a 6.5ltr Subaru :)
NOW is the time to look out your local IAM Group if they are like Glasgow North they will just be starting their yearly meetings.
-Ralph-
23-03-12, 09:41 PM
Simples. NO time like the present!!!!
+10,000
I decided to do IAM or ROSPA a couple of years ago after I highsided the SV in Northern Ireland, had a 'I can't keep doing this and putting myself at risk when I have a child' crisis, and I very nearly gave up riding. A complete change in my attitude, particularly with respect to risk, and doing IAM or ROSPA were conditions of continuing to ride motorbikes that I set myself. Those that rode with me before and after, I'm sure will tell you that I've achieved the former, so now onto the next step with the latter.
The reason I haven't done it yet is due to being unsettled at home, and having moved house and area 3 times in the past 3 years. I couldn't choose a group and know that I'd be able to stick with it and see it through, without leaving the area.
Now I have bought a house and am going to settle in one place, I have chosen my local ROSPA group in Northampton who meet every Sunday morning.
The reasons I've chosen ROSPA is that you have the bronze, silver and gold levels, and if you want to you can do the 5 day £1300 course which gives you the ROSPA Advanced Diploma in Riding Instruction, but I think you'd only do that if you wanted to get into it professionally (silver or gold are pre-requisites). ROSPA claim that the Bronze certification is equivalent to a standard IAM test and the Gold certification is the highest civilian qualification available, and with all ROSPA levels you get re-tested every three years. So ROSPA seems to be something that sticks with you for the rest of your riding life.
I'm not a stranger to advanced riding, I've done Bikesafe a few times now, I pretty much know the motorcycle roadcraft book inside out, I've watched a fair few instructional DVD's, and I put it into practice as much as I can on every ride (or at least I think I do), now I need to formalise it.
Add another 10,000 +1s on to what Ralph and John have said - there is no time like the present.
My experience as an observer is that it seems to be an incident related trigger that pushes people towards us rather than a time based thing, and my IAM group has associates ranging from early 20s to over 50s. The real time to get further training is when you feel that your current training isn't sufficient to handle the hazards that riding is putting in your path.
punyXpress
23-03-12, 10:17 PM
IAM Teesside: Telephone Mr Bill Stockdale on 01642 884306
I'm with the Scarborough lot.
Teesside did an entertaining Bikesafe morning at Teasdales Thirsk a couple of years ago, but the one up Bilsdale from Helmsley a couple of years before that was even better. The copper who chased us up there was examiner for my IAM test.
carelesschucca
23-03-12, 10:23 PM
Ah Motorcycle roadcraft, first thing that always comes to mind from it is Information (Take Use & Give) Position Speed Gear Acceleration.
I might look into ROSPA myself. Its always good to learn that bit more and freshen up a little...
if your in the Glagow area try http://www.iamglasgow.org/
Kilted Ginger
23-03-12, 10:28 PM
The right time is when you feel it is the right time, it will only work if you are ready for it too work.
Whether its after 3 months or 30 years riding doesn't matter.
It needs t be something you want to do and do for the right reasons, do it to realistically view and scrutinise your riding, do it to polish your good bits and improve your poor bits (we all have them) dont do it for a badge or status, it wont work.
Unfortunately there are some trainers / observers (iam, rospa and private) for whom its all about status, however in my experience most are only there to help and assist as best they can.
If its something you want to do then its the right time for you. Go along and talk to them all, get a feel for which one suits you best and once started if you dont feel you're getting what you expected dont be afraid to tell them.
Safe riding mate.
-Ralph-
23-03-12, 10:35 PM
it seems to be an incident related trigger that pushes people towards
The real time to get further training is when you feel that your current training isn't sufficient to handle the hazards that riding is putting in your path.
A devils advocate question, and it is a question, not a statement or an argument.
If somebody doesn't want, or feel they need to do extra training they won't, but don't you find that a lot of riders have this mentality as a bit of a delusion? i.e. "the accident wasn't my fault", "I had no chance", "there was nothing else I could have done".
It is probably the time for these riders to get some further training, but they don't feel that their current training isn't sufficient, so how do you get them to come join a group? Is the incident related trigger, the only way under which you get people joining?
-Ralph-
23-03-12, 10:44 PM
Hmm, reading KG's post it occurs to me that my post may come across the wrong way to some people. Bronze, Silver, Gold, not for me about badges, but about a structured programme of continuous improvement. 3 yearly testing about maintenance. Formalise it, being about actually doing the courses and have somebody else observe and critique the advanced riding that I already "think!" I am doing. I have no doubt however that I couldn't ride how I ride today, and pass the tests tomorrow. I do think however that I've taken it as far as I can with self study, and now I need help from somebody else in order to progress and find what my problems are.
A devils advocate question, and it is a question, not a statement or an argument.
If somebody doesn't want, or feel they need to do extra training they won't, but don't you find that a lot of riders have this mentality as a bit of a delusion? i.e. "the accident wasn't my fault", "I had no chance", "there was nothing else I could have done".
It is probably the time for these riders to get some further training, but they don't feel that their current training isn't sufficient, so how do you get them to come join a group? Is the incident related trigger, the only way under which you get people joining?I wish we knew the answer to that question. Then we would have an unlimited supply of new member to our club :)
If Bronze Silver / Gold appeals, just so you know, the IAM offer the F1RST register, whereby if you achieve a grade 1 in every category of your test, then it is recognised on your certificate.
Also if you go on to be an observer, then you will fall into a 3 yearly retest regime.
Just a heads up that the IAM are offering 12 months free RAC cover for new associates, and it doesn't matter how long you've been riding or how good you think you are, any advanced training is a life saver who ever you choose to do it with, I've had people whe have been riding for under a year and others with 40 years experience, all have passed their IAM test andall have learnt something and have become better more observanr riders. Compared with most other m/cycle related purchases it is the one thing that will help you stay safe while out on your bike and one of the best purchases you will ever make.
Daryl
It's all a learning curve. I couldn't work out why my mate was faster than me and tried to ride too hard without the right info. I then read Keith codes a twist of the wrist 2 which isn't as track orientated as the first book.
From there I completely changed how I sat on the bike, my body positioning when cornering, I got rid of my "panick response" which was always to roll off the throttle. I basically started from scratch and it felt very odd and uncomfortable at first but it has made me a far smoother rider which in turn made me faster.
There is a lot of training you can do for yourself.
all the training in the world is not going to help if you don't have the ability in the first place.
someone could teach me how to drive an F1 racing car but its not going to make me an Grand Prix racing driver no matter how much training i get.
there has been a few people at the training school here in kirkcaldy that have been told that 'we would advise you don't take up motorcycling'. this was due to the fact that no matter how much training they gave these people they could not get to grips with riding a motorcycle and failed the test numerous times.
I'm going for my I.A.M this year... Hopefully (....... Hang on... I think I can feel a plan coming together...)
using my resettlement from the Army :0)
ohh joy of joys... :0)
Surely it has to be as soon as you're sensible enough to feel the need.
For the record I've done two Bikesafes in London and the second was a complete and utter waste of time (Bikesafe down here soesn't seem to be anywhere near as comprehensive as it is in other places). The copper was waiting a few more weeks for retirement and spent most of his time telling other road users off. I don't think I'll go back there.
-Ralph-
24-03-12, 07:40 AM
there has been a few people at the training school here in kirkcaldy that have been told that 'we would advise you don't take up motorcycling'
John McDonald & Co by any chance? I forget what his training school is called. They used to be on Mitchelston Industrial Estate.
What Bibio says is very true, and I have seen a rider that had just passed an IAM test, who didn't have the confidence to exceed 40mph or execute a single overtake, then on another occasion came off the bike trembling and crying after being buzzed by another rider (who was an idiot to be fair, but he buzzed everybody and they didn't come off the bike crying), so that kind of honesty doesn't always happen. That rider is quite competent now and indeed passed IAM observers at one point, but IMO should not have passed the first test at that point in time.
ROSPA say Gold is the highest civilian riding qualification, so I can't imagine that it's an easy test, or one that every rider is capable of getting through. If I can't pass ROSPA bronze I'll hang up my helmet (I've been told on my latest bikesafe that if the last hour of riding had been my test I would have passed), but if I'm struggling to get silver or gold, and I've failed the test 2 or 3 times, then that's the time to accept your limitations and give up. I hope I'll never get to the stage where somebody has to tell me that I'm not capable.
I have also had a poor bikesafe experience during which I got no feedback at all except, "yes, your riding is fine, but what's the speed limit and what speed did you get up to on that overtake?".
I had overtaken a car doing about 57 in a 60 limit, we were doing about 65 (knew my speedo was overreading anyway) so I caught him, and knowing the next couple of miles was bendy with DWL, I did a textbook overtake perhaps hitting an indicated 80 mph, then pulled in and dropped back to 65mph. I wasn't going to sit alongside the car on the wrong side of the road, at the speed limit and take a couple of hundred yards to pass (and if I had the copper would have needed to contravene the DWL in order to follow me, but as it was he followed me through comfortably).
Quality of training absolutely seems to depend upon the individual that is training and testing you.
Specialone
24-03-12, 07:50 AM
Col, hang you helmet if you can't get to silver stage after a few trys? We not all gonna be super standard ever, IMO that's putting too much pressure on yourself.
There will always be a wide range of abilities, same as driving, we can't all be police class/grade 1 drivers.
Motorcycling doesn't come natural to me and I don't think I'll ever be a fully accomplished rider, it's not a bad thing IMO, just learn your limitations and ride accordingly.
I've thought many times I'd like to teach at some point but it could never be the racing side of things as I'll never be to a good enough standard but I'd like to think I could get to a standard at some point where I could help new riders, who knows it may be a pipe dream.
-Ralph-
24-03-12, 08:01 AM
No, hang my helmet if I can't get to Bronze. :lol:
If I can't get to Silver, I'll accept that I'm a ROSPA Bronze level rider and get on with it, and do a Bronze level retest every 3 years. Or can't get Gold, accept that I'm Silver.
As KG says it's not about the badge, it's about doing everything you can to reach your potential and make your riding as safe as you possibly can.
A devils advocate question, and it is a question, not a statement or an argument.
If somebody doesn't want, or feel they need to do extra training they won't, but don't you find that a lot of riders have this mentality as a bit of a delusion? i.e. "the accident wasn't my fault", "I had no chance", "there was nothing else I could have done".
It is probably the time for these riders to get some further training, but they don't feel that their current training isn't sufficient, so how do you get them to come join a group? Is the incident related trigger, the only way under which you get people joining?
It isn't the only way, as we just get people turning up out of the blue because they have decided independently to seek further training, but when we talk to people at dealer open days and those sort of events we do try and help them deconstruct an incident they have had recently. Doing this can break down the barriers that you've highlighted, by showing them that there may have been an alternative approach which they could have taken if they had picked up on an observational cue. Occasionally, there are cases where we haven't been able to suggest an alternative course of action, but even then you can see that the seed has been planted.
I'd say about a year after passing the test would be appropriate, if one wanted further training, once you had had a bit of time on the road.
I would disagree with this.
Depending on usage, a year is a long time to pick up habits. Having just done an IAM day course, I wish I had done it years ago.
I've got some bad habits, mainly to do with positioning.
Had I started advanced training as soon as I passed, the habits I would have learned would have all been good ones!
Personally, I didn't like being followed/observed and it made me do things which I never do, these included looking down at the road in front of me... I never do that and it was strange! However, I did learn a lot and shall definitely be signing up to train and pass my test.
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