View Full Version : My insight into Reeder's crash
I've been struggling to put all this in place since I first heard yesterday. It didn't feel real at all. I decided to visit the site this afternoon to put some sort of reality on it and begin to say my goodbyes.
I know the bend well and have run a little wide a couple of times on it myself, but have always been within my limits and got round. It's a deceptive wide sweep but tightens up slightly as it also goes a little up hill. I'm no accident investigator but it looks very much like the fella ran out of road width, low sided, mounted the curb and made contact with the tree.
This link is from the local paper. You can see the marks on the road and curb. The contact was with the first tree.
http://www.lowestoftjournal.co.uk/news/motorcyclist_in_his_20s_dies_in_crash_in_brampton_ 1_1325908
If he had been a foot either left or right he would have been posting an 'Ouch, my first off hurts' as there is a massive field of veg behind :(
Be happy where you are fella. We'll catch up some day.
Specialone
23-03-12, 10:00 AM
I've been struggling to put all this in place since I first heard yesterday. It didn't feel real at all. I decided to visit the site this afternoon to put some sort of reality on it and begin to say my goodbyes.
I know the bend well and have run a little wide a couple of times on it myself, but have always been within my limits and got round. It's a deceptive wide sweep but tightens up slightly as it also goes a little up hill. I'm no accident investigator but it looks very much like the fella ran out of road width, low sided, mounted the curb and made contact with the tree.
This link is from the local paper. You can see the marks on the road and curb. The contact was with the first tree.
http://www.lowestoftjournal.co.uk/news/motorcyclist_in_his_20s_dies_in_crash_in_brampton_ 1_1325908
If he had been a foot either left or right he would have been posting an 'Ouch, my first off hurts' as there is a massive field of veg behind :(
Be happy where you are fella. We'll catch up some day.
Dont want to derail this thread so i'll keep it short.
Jeez thats bloody unlucky on that corner, doesnt look a particulary tight corner and its fairly open with no gates and hedges to hit, proper unlucky there :(
A lot of people are asking about what happened to Andy and how it happened. The A145 is a popular biker road in my area and I ride it almost every time I'm out in the area.
I rode the bent a few times, I noticed that foliage hid part of the bend, making it appear not as sharp as it is. There are many factors which could be taken into account which may come to light in the future.
According to nation statistics, there as been one serious and one minor accident on this bend from 2000-2010. A total of 4 fatal accidents now stand on the A145.
Entry to the bend:
http://img845.imageshack.us/img845/5565/reeder1.png
Point where Reeder lost control:
http://img822.imageshack.us/img822/8546/reeder2.png
http://img804.imageshack.us/img804/6531/imag0078c.jpg
Contact marks made by Reeder's SV650 (can't confirm it, but its highly likely)
http://img856.imageshack.us/img856/2166/imag0077lb.jpg
Point where his bike dug in:
http://img404.imageshack.us/img404/7697/imag0080x.jpg
Tree which he struck:
http://img809.imageshack.us/img809/9735/imag0081k.jpg
Also, if anyone is offended by any of this please contact me asap and I'll take them down.
Bluepete
24-03-12, 08:18 PM
Hmmmmmm.
Baited breath.
Dave20046
24-03-12, 08:20 PM
Awful badluck, I'm sure the facts will come out.
i'm not offended. in fact thank you for this as it has now put my mind at a little more ease about it all. it has also hit home more that he really is gone.
thank you
Lance
andrewsmith
24-03-12, 08:24 PM
i'm not offended. in fact thank you for this as it has now put my mind at a little more ease about it all. it has also hit home more that he really is gone.
thank you
Lance
Here here
Thanks for this Alex
MisterTommyH
24-03-12, 08:26 PM
Thanks Alex.
I think everyone will agree that it seems like terrible bad luck.
missyburd
24-03-12, 08:28 PM
Such a small tree to cause such damage :(
Thankyou for taking the time to post however people take it though Alex. The thread title speaks for itself, if people don't want to know they don't have to read.
The main reason I decided to put this together is to give myself and everyone else a better understanding of the different things that can happen in the bends and potentially prevent a similar future accident through awareness. Thankyou for understanding everyone!
Out of all that open space, that thin twig like tree... That is just unbelievable bad luck.
Nice work however, not offended myself. Should be more flowers around that tree IMO.
---
I am here: http://tapatalk.com/map.php?og1bg2
Red Herring
24-03-12, 08:36 PM
I think pictures paint a thousand words so I'm sure most will be grateful for your efforts. Just remember to keep an open mind though and still not jump to conclusions. It might have been fine to take that bend at 60 when you did it but we don't know the circumstances of the moment, or what other traffic was about. There are still an awful lot of variables to consider so don't automatically think speed.
MisterTommyH
24-03-12, 08:37 PM
Should be more flowers around that tree IMO.
Speaking of which, and sorry for the early de-rail - is there any news on any arrangement for flowers or charity donations?
Does anyone think it's appropriate to set up an org just giving page for the East Anglia Air Ambulance (Mod's please move this to a new thread if you think it needs it).
I think the lack of flowers is largely due to the fact only his close family would of known the exact location of the crash.
I think pictures paint a thousand words so I'm sure most will be grateful for your efforts. Just remember to keep an open mind though and still not jump to conclusions. It might have been fine to take that bend at 60 when you did it but we don't know the circumstances of the moment, or what other traffic was about. There are still an awful lot of variables to consider so don't automatically think speed.
Very true, this is pure speculation and I didn't take into account other factors.
maviczap
24-03-12, 08:45 PM
Speaking of which, and sorry for the early de-rail - is there any news on any arrangement for flowers or charity donations?
Does anyone think it's appropriate to set up an org just giving page for the East Anglia Air Ambulance (Mod's please move this to a new thread if you think it needs it).
Speedplay is in touch with Reeder's sister through FB, we're just waiting to see what the arrangements are,
Speaking of which, and sorry for the early de-rail - is there any news on any arrangement for flowers or charity donations?
Does anyone think it's appropriate to set up an org just giving page for the East Anglia Air Ambulance (Mod's please move this to a new thread if you think it needs it).
Tommy - the sentinments are appreciated I'm sure, but a couple of people from the org are in contact with Reeder's family already. When the time is right we'll put together the appropriate tribute.
Thank you Alex, for the pictures and the time you've given to help us understand. It can't have been easy for you. Hopefully one day, we'll all get to meet.
littleoldman2
24-03-12, 08:52 PM
I think pictures paint a thousand words so I'm sure most will be grateful for your efforts. Just remember to keep an open mind though and still not jump to conclusions. It might have been fine to take that bend at 60 when you did it but we don't know the circumstances of the moment, or what other traffic was about. There are still an awful lot of variables to consider so don't automatically think speed.
Also. No disrespect to anyone but we also need to bear in mind that this is a public forum.
speedplay
24-03-12, 09:04 PM
Thanks Alex,
It couldnt have been easy for you to put this together and I for one appreciate you doing so.
As Redherring has said, there are lots of variables, I know Reeder was on new tyres for a start, could have been debris in the road, bloody pheasant flying across, could have been a million and one different things.
Either way, its a sad loss both to biking and all that knew him.
Rob.
maviczap
24-03-12, 09:06 PM
Either way, its a sad loss both to biking and all that knew him.
Rob.
yep :(
I've not had any of my close family or friends pass away before this. Although I didn't know Reeder as much as I would've liked he was still someone I used to see and speak to at work, seeing me as a bored agency worker stuffing boxes into a machine made his job look fun!
speedplay
24-03-12, 09:17 PM
Seeing half the crap he used to make out of office equipment made his job look dull as f***!
Alex, why dont you get yourself into the idle banter section and start a hello thread and tell us about yourself.
Most on here dont rid SV's anymore and anyone is welcome to ride with us.
The chances are, you will meet some of us from time to time :)
Bluefish
24-03-12, 09:19 PM
Seeing half the crap he used to make out of office equipment made his job look dull as f***!
Alex, why dont you get yourself into the idle banter section and start a hello thread and tell us about yourself.
Most on here dont rid SV's anymore and anyone is welcome to ride with us.
The chances are, you will meet some of us from time to time :)
hear hear :D
maviczap
24-03-12, 09:19 PM
Yep, the EAR are always looking for riders.
Only 2 on tomorrows 2nd March Meat run, although its fish and chips by the look of it :p
I went out there yesterday and thought the same things happened. The marks left on the road, kerb, and bank are all very clear. And the shear bad luck to hit the only tree on the exit is incredible. That tree is very solid for its size. It's all a series of very unfortunate events that came together in the worst possible way.
I also know the road well and it tightens up before the exit. It has almost caught me out a couple of times, feeling the front end start to loose grip. What ever the initial cause it certainly looks like he lowsided and went straight on into the tree as his bike went to one side and finished in the field. I can only hope he didn't suffer.
-Ralph-
24-03-12, 09:22 PM
Well it's a complete s**t that Andrew hit that little tree and it took his life.
Whatever caused him to come off, it's what you hit after you come off that gets you, and that's just down to pure bad luck, and the only way to avoid such bad luck is not to come off in the first place.
At the worst time of year when the weather turns bad, we get about one thread a week telling us of an accident had by a forum member. Most of these are bumps, bruises and broken bikes, but if that little tree teaches us anything, it's that any of those threads could just as easily be an RIP thread, if the accident had happened a moment earlier or a moment later.
Please do what you can to avoid coming off the bike in the first place folks... :grouphug:
dizzyblonde
24-03-12, 09:33 PM
I'm sorry to offend.....but why the duck did it have to be a puny little sapling like that?
Totally random.....and all the more heartbreaking :(
Thanks fella, sometimes these things need to be in your face to hit home.
speedplay
24-03-12, 09:37 PM
I'm sorry to offend.....but why the duck did it have to be a puny little sapling like that?
Contrary to popular belief, Reeder couldnt take larger wood.... ;)
dizzyblonde
24-03-12, 09:57 PM
Honestly Speedplay, I'm trying my hardest not to smirk at that.. is that allowed?
andrewsmith
24-03-12, 10:00 PM
Honestly Speedplay, I'm trying my hardest not to smirk at that.. is that allowed?
yes as I'm smirking also
Please can we keep this thread on the original topic. Thanks
The Idle Biker
24-03-12, 10:09 PM
Alex,Thanks for taking the time to record and post all this. It does help you know.
Messie, I bet you are such a authoritarian teacher.
Red Herring
24-03-12, 10:27 PM
That's AN authoritarian teacher....
21QUEST
24-03-12, 10:28 PM
Well, I'm going to have to say, I can't quite understand how this thread is truly helping so many folks know something that they did not[1] have a clue about...but if that's indeed the case, then, that all well and good.
For me, I can't see how it's providing 'insight'. A case of speculating(pointlessly imo) ....verging on almost morbid curiosity...and that's it.
It's easy to over analyze, over complicate....
Not wishing to needlessly offend anyone(especially the OP) but as usual, just my honest view/opinion.
[1] edit
It really does look like such awfully bad luck. It's useful for some good to come out of these sad events, and the discussions have been well meant and useful. As Ralph said in the other thread, if only one person is saved from something similar then the discussions are worthwhile. It shows how such apparently innocuous scenery can hold real hazards.
I had an awful feeling when reading about the incident, there was a discussion a while back about the dangers (or otherwise) of biking, and I said this (post #31 in http://forums.sv650.org/showthread.php?t=59218&highlight=tree&page=4) . Please everyone, take note.
BigBaddad
24-03-12, 10:47 PM
Not sure as to how appropriate it is, despite all the evidence to "point fingers" so soon. I just don't know, I have personal thoughts on the matter. I don't find it offensive just a little ill timed.
But this is a place to speak freely and hopefully lessons can be learned.
Urbanfireblade
24-03-12, 11:15 PM
I can understand what 21QUEST means(few posts above), and on most parts, i agree with what he says, but on the flip side, seeing it in greater detail makes it hit home alot lot more(it has me), as we can only 'imagine' what it must have been like, those last moments. And those 'thoughts' will stay with us a whole lot longer than just reading words.
Specialone
25-03-12, 12:23 AM
It does seem to be a horrendously bad set of circumstances, nothing we say now will change anything but if the actual cause is discovered it may just help another rider avoid a similar outcome.
:(
I hit a tree not much larger than that on my SV around 50mph, and they really dont move at all. I can only thank my lucky stars that I'm here to tell the tale. Whatever the circumstances, it is absolutely tragic.
The Basket
25-03-12, 06:33 PM
I agree that this is slightly unseemly as this about a young lads death,
but all I can say there but for the grace of God go I.
Why is it unseemly? We're all reacting in a human way. It's human nature to be curious, to be empathetic, to grieve (in our own way) and some may learn from the info. A post such as this doesn't stop us - particularly close friends and family - from feeling grief or loss. For me, this post does not disparage those feelings. As for timing, when would be the right time to ask the question "what happened"? We'll undoubtedly hear more in due course but for me, in relating to my own similar experience, sooner rather than later is better because part of grieving is to try and understand what happened.
Bluefish
25-03-12, 08:13 PM
I never met him. He was different from everyone I knew when I was his age. From what I saw on Facebook and here he was a product of his times. I see certain things he did, in my kids, all that Hugs and kisses they do to mates when they meet, open with their feelings and confident to post anything online and share everything.
And that's the shame of it for me. He wasn't a cocky wanabee street racer, he wasn't an arrogant tosspot or an aggressive oik, he was a young bloke who was just open and up for a laugh, with a great set of mates and a great sense of fun. I've thought a lot about him since he died. I've never felt like this before for someone, who by traditional standards is a stranger to me. Maybe that's good thing about this technology, that it gets us all closer.
I dunno about much but I really feel bad for all his friends and family. Fnckin tragedy.
And taking all that in to account, the thing that gets me is that poxy little tree.
aaron020873
25-03-12, 08:44 PM
As others have said there could be all sorts of reasons why the accident happened, but on the face of it, it seems even more tragic that the tree is so small and appears to be some distance away from where it appears the bike made contact with the kerb.
The Idle Biker
25-03-12, 08:47 PM
I know mate, but look at us. The strength of a tree is in it's roots, it's deep and planted. We're just 80% water or whatever it is. Squishing flesh, and muscle and some bone. It don't take much to take us out. We just like to think we're invincible.
I hate trees, best get rid of em', chop em all down. Seasonal fancies and ruin the view. W@nker trees!
Bluefish
25-03-12, 08:52 PM
No tree's are good, cool even, my only off so far touch wood haha, i ended up about 3 feet from a tree and i mean a proper tree 20x bigger than that, just goes to show what may have happened :rolleyes:
DJFridge
25-03-12, 08:55 PM
It makes you think twice about what looks like a safe run off, doesn't it. I've found myself looking at hedgerows and fences and trees quite a lot over the last few days. As somebody said early on (and please forgive me for not wanting to search back through this thread to check who it was) a foot either way and he'd have been on here, lamenting his first off and complaining about cabbages stuck in his radiator.
Bluefish
25-03-12, 08:56 PM
That made me laugh mr fridge, cabbages lol, true though.
-Ralph-
25-03-12, 09:05 PM
It makes you think twice about what looks like a safe run off, doesn't it. I've found myself looking at hedgerows and fences and trees quite a lot over the last few days
and buildings, and high kerbs, and bollards, and road signs, and telegraph poles, and lampposts, and armco, and garden walls, and parked cars, and bridges, and rock faces, and wheelie bins, and park benches, and bus shelters, and large ceramic plant pots, and...
and buildings, and high kerbs, and bollards, and road signs, and telegraph poles, and lampposts, and armco, and garden walls, and parked cars, and bridges, and rock faces, and wheelie bins, and park benches, and bus shelters, and large ceramic plant pots, and...
where's the grammar Police when you need them? :p
(If there are any mistake's in this text, they were done intentionally.)
Specialone
25-03-12, 09:13 PM
And taking all that in to account, the thing that gets me is that poxy little tree.
+1 :(
Bluefish
25-03-12, 09:15 PM
and buildings, and high kerbs, and bollards, and road signs, and telegraph poles, and lampposts, and armco, and garden walls, and parked cars, and bridges, and rock faces, and wheelie bins, and park benches, and bus shelters, and large ceramic plant pots, and...
You trying to say, make the corner, make the corner, but no your not, because that would imply something had gone wrong, and what you really mean is if you were set up correctly in the first place ( position speed gear etc) then you don't really have to worry about those things?
dizzyblonde
25-03-12, 09:20 PM
and buildings, and high kerbs, and bollards, and road signs, and telegraph poles, and lampposts, and armco, and garden walls, and parked cars, and bridges, and rock faces, and wheelie bins, and park benches, and bus shelters, and large ceramic plant pots, and...
DEER!
:rolleyes:
DJFridge
25-03-12, 09:22 PM
Seagulls and pigeons round here. And pheasants. God, pheasants are stupid.
andrewsmith
25-03-12, 09:26 PM
+1 :(
+2
Red Herring
26-03-12, 05:47 AM
You trying to say, make the corner, make the corner, but no your not, because that would imply something had gone wrong, and what you really mean is if you were set up correctly in the first place ( position speed gear etc) then you don't really have to worry about those things?
Training and experience will help you avoid getting into the situation where you need luck, skill, and even more training and experience to get out of, but there is a saying that good judgement comes from experience, and that good experience comes from bad judgement. I've said on the other thread that it would be wrong to speculate about the cause of Reeders crash so don't take this as such please, but regarding the comments about the tree that is just plain bad luck. From the witness marks he was clearly off the bike before he left the road so he had no say over where he went by then. Back to Bluefishes comment and it is instinct not to want to give up, but with training you can overcome that. I've been off on a bend very similar to this one at well over 100mph but the difference was I had planned for it. During recce for the event some days earlier I had identified how critical that bend was not to lose speed for (long straight in, long straight out) so I had taken the time to check out the verge and adjoining field for fences, ditches and such like, I even identified where I would return to the road.
In everyday road riding you don't get the chance to recce to that extent (or ride like that!) but you do get the chance to plan. For example when approaching a side road with a vehicle waiting to pull out I go through the same process. Is there something coming the other way, yes, then an offside swerve is out of the question, is there a lampost to the nearside, yes, then can't go there either. Does it have a nice soft crumple zone offside wing, or is it a Landrover Defender... right, get the weight on the pegs ready to jump then.... just because you plan for it doesn't mean you have to do it, but with training you can condition yourself to take a pre-identified and safest option.
Sorry for the long post, maybe this should have been on Ralphs thread.
Specialone
26-03-12, 06:18 AM
Chaps, without being disrespectful, it might be better to move this discussion to ralphs thread or start a new one, I'm not sure Andrews family (if they do) would want to read a lot of this tbh.
hindle8907
26-03-12, 06:54 AM
Chaps, without being disrespectful, it might be better to move this discussion to ralphs thread or start a new one, I'm not sure Andrews family (if they do) would want to read a lot of this tbh.
+1 some posts need to be moved into the other thread.
-Ralph-
26-03-12, 07:50 AM
Chaps, without being disrespectful, it might be better to move this discussion to ralphs thread or start a new one, I'm not sure Andrews family (if they do) would want to read a lot of this tbh.
Oi, Mr Mod man, both threads are in IB where you can shift the posts, stop moaning and do some bl00dy work! ;)
Specialone
26-03-12, 08:15 AM
I'm working today and on my phone so can't do any tidying up, I'll do it tonight.
Owenski
26-03-12, 09:34 AM
Is it odd that I wanna chop that tree down?
Geodude
26-03-12, 09:51 AM
Is it odd that I wanna chop that tree down?
Nope ive wanted to do the same thing mate :(
Dave20046
26-03-12, 09:57 AM
Is it odd that I wanna chop that tree down?
No, I thought the same.
I also thought it when my mates daughter almost died in a crash and bizarrely (to me anyway) they actually planted another tree at the site in memory of her friends
I think the thinking is that people far more mature than me with a better understanding of life would rather do something positive than negative... I hope his family are holding up :(
RACEFIT_GLADDY
26-03-12, 10:22 AM
It's obviously a bad bend, and If it's killed once it could do the same again in the future if somebody came off again on the same bend, But i suppose it depends if people will want to use the tree as a memorial site..
littleoldman2
26-03-12, 10:26 AM
Chaps, without being disrespectful, it might be better to move this discussion to ralphs thread or start a new one, I'm not sure Andrews family (if they do) would want to read a lot of this tbh.
Just to add to the above. The whole forum is public as far as I am aware. Andrews family and any one else can read any of it. We should all think of this before we type.
kaivalagi
26-03-12, 12:55 PM
How f***g unlucky....
My thoughts exactly :(
Specialone
26-03-12, 05:30 PM
Is it odd that I wanna chop that tree down?
Nope ive wanted to do the same thing mate :(
Yep, was my thought when I seen it, so why don't we?
Red Herring
26-03-12, 06:52 PM
Yep, was my thought when I seen it, so why don't we?
Come on folks, that's hardly reasonable behaviour is it.
littleoldman2
26-03-12, 07:03 PM
Come on folks, that's hardly reasonable behaviour is it.
No tree means it cannot happen again. Think of it as a road safety improvement.
Lets hope the authorities remove it and all the other roadside junk from the outside of bends.
Red Herring
26-03-12, 07:06 PM
And the bend before that, or the one after? Where do you stop?
littleoldman2
26-03-12, 07:16 PM
When there's none left. Not planting them in the first place may be a good place to start. Northumberland CC are currently putting steel posts all over the place to protect the grass verges. I could rant forever about roads made dangerous, just look at motorway crash barriers and think about sliding into one of them.
Specialone
26-03-12, 07:17 PM
Come on folks, that's hardly reasonable behaviour is it.
Who said we have to be reasonable ?
Btw, it was Tongue in cheek, I live bloody miles away from there.
Ok, final word of advice. On topic or locked
Red Herring
26-03-12, 07:44 PM
Who said we have to be reasonable ?
Btw, it was Tongue in cheek, I live bloody miles away from there.
Sorry mate, I bit a bit there. We get families wanting to do that quite a bit, I do understand their point of view but I think it's a bit of a short term solution for them with a disproportionate impact on the community.
We had a local man die after he hit a tree whilst drunk. The tree was one in a line of trees through a village and the family wanted it cut down as a "mark of respect". The local community objected and won their case. A few weeks later the tree was mysteriously ring barked one night, and of course died and had to be cut down. I'm sure you didn't mean to suggest we form a tree felling posse so my apologies.
Specialone
26-03-12, 08:38 PM
Some posts from reeders RIP thread have been moved to this thread, i (and others) dont think we should be discussing trees and the crash in his RIP thread, wouldnt be nice for his family to see imo.
DJFridge
26-03-12, 08:47 PM
Some posts from reeders RIP thread have been moved to this thread, i (and others) dont think we should be discussing trees and the crash in his RIp thread, wouldnt be nice for his family to see imo.
Fair call
BanannaMan
27-03-12, 01:46 AM
Just bad luck IMHO.
I've seen riders survive when they should not have by all odds and seen minor slow speed crashes turn fatal.
I truely believe when it's your time to go it's just going to happen and seems to be the case here.
Very sad for Reeder, the family and friends. He will be missed.
Why don't we plant a hedge.
It will help.give a clue to the corner.
And god forbid slow anyone else down if they have an off.
Why don't we plant a hedge.
It will help.give a clue to the corner.
Doesn't the set of roadsigns already do that?
Every bit will help .
It's creative not destructive.
Owenski
27-03-12, 09:12 AM
Yep, was my thought when I seen it, so why don't we?
Come on folks, that's hardly reasonable behaviour is it.
Exactly, I thought it but suspected the thought was petty and misguided. I know no one would actually go out there with a chop saw but I was expressing that I suprised my self by having the thought in the first place.
No tree means it cannot happen again. Think of it as a road safety improvement.
Lets hope the authorities remove it and all the other roadside junk from the outside of bends.
It'd be nice for them to do that, but it'll never happen. I'd wager the farmer put that tree there to stop cars using his cabbage patch as an over run. It also means if you chop it down you'll be looking at charges for damage to private property.
And the bend before that, or the one after? Where do you stop?
Precisely, its unfortunatly not a war we could ever win and its the reason so many riders choose to ride only on a track.
OK so it seems that the speculation on the cause/s of Reeder's crash are concluded. The topic has moved on to roadside obstacles, so if it's still needed, another thread may be opened.
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