Smoking SV.

[Nobbylad]

Bike has taken up the nasty habit recently. Tend to notice it more after I've been riding M-way speeds then come to a stop and it idles for around 30 secs or so, then queue the blue smoke billowing out.

It's using more oil so I guess that's the cause of the smoke, just need to figure out the cause of the leak....piston rings?

I'll be checking the valves this weekend (will hit 40k this week, probs tomorrow) and also balancing it all, but what else other than piston rings cause this?

[flymo]

do a compression test, should confirm one way or another.

[Nobbylad]

This any good or would people recommend something else?

http://www.halfords.com/webapp/wcs/stores/servlet/product_storeId_10001_catalogId_10151_productId_19 9553_langId_-1_categoryId_255216#tab3

[johnnyrod]

Could be valve seals, under engine braking the oil is pulled past the leaking ones into the cylinder due to the vacuum, won't smoke when on the throttle (once the oil has been burned off of course)

[flymo]

This any good or would people recommend something else?

http://www.halfords.com/webapp/wcs/stores/servlet/product_storeId_10001_catalogId_10151_productId_19 9553_langId_-1_categoryId_255216#tab3

They work fine, I have one just the same. It does the job.

[Nobbylad]

So in order of priority:-

- check valve clearances
- check compression

Anything else?

[flymo]

Check compression first, if that's good then I wouldn't bother with valve clearances yet. Usual sign of a problem would be a significant difference in compression between cylinders, very unlikely that a ring/valve would go in both at once.

When did you last check clearances? Do you still have the baffle above the engine breather hose inside the air-box?

Also.... didn't you mention water in your oil a little while ago? Did you figure out the reason for that?

[Nobbylad]

Clearances last checked at 30k I think, but would need to check.

If by baffle above the engine breather hose, you mean the sponge on the left hand side as you look down into the airbox, facing forward, then yes, that's still there.

There was a lot of oil on the last oil filter, haven't checked the Pipercross one I fitted recently yet (it was fitted after the smoking began).

The milky oil was straight after I fitted the CNC clutch cover and curvy crankcase cover. Again, the smoking started before this swap.

[flymo]

Clearances last checked at 30k I think, but would need to check.

If by baffle above the engine breather hose, you mean the sponge on the left hand side as you look down into the airbox, facing forward, then yes, that's still there.

Yep, that's the one. It's there to catch oil as it vents from the engine and prevent too much of it getting sucked back into the cylinders.

There was a lot of oil on the last oil filter, haven't checked the Pipercross one I fitted recently yet (it was fitted after the smoking began).You mean the air filter? Obviously this shouldn't be covered in oil, if the new one is the same would be interesting to figure out where this is coming from. Is one side of the filter more oily than the other (input vs output)?

[Nobbylad]

Sorry yes, air filter. It was definitely oily, but from memory, was in the centre of the air filter as opposed to one side.

YC may remember better than me, he's young lol

[Nobbylad]

OK - thanks to having no garage and the hail etc tonight, I only managed to do the following:-

- check airbox/filter
- check/replace plugs (all)
- check front cylinder valve clearances

Here are the results:-

Air filter (again, oil stains in the centre, is this normal for 2k since fitting?)

http://i11.photobucket.com/albums/a161/nobbylad/IMAG0848.jpg

Air box, a fair amount of gunk in there, more like a light spraying all over with some particularly scummy bits in the baffle box.

http://i11.photobucket.com/albums/a161/nobbylad/IMAG0850.jpg
http://i11.photobucket.com/albums/a161/nobbylad/IMAG0853.jpg
http://i11.photobucket.com/albums/a161/nobbylad/IMAG0855.jpg


Front plugs

http://i11.photobucket.com/albums/a161/nobbylad/IMAG0856.jpg

Rear plugs

http://i11.photobucket.com/albums/a161/nobbylad/IMAG0859.jpg

So plugs look like there's oil going into the combustion chamber.

Clearances were as follows:-

Front

IN = 0.11mm and 0.13mm
EX = 0.15mm and 0.15mm

Whereas I believe the clearances should be:-

IN = 0.21 to 0.25
EX = 0.20 to 0.30

[Bibio]

IN = .10-.20
EX = .20-.30

so your inlets are fine but exhausts are out

plugs don't look like they have had oil on them but bike is running lean.

marks on air filter could be fuel mist.

[Nobbylad]

Although the photos aren't great, the plugs were white and furry (ash fouled), which, when compared to the manual, suggested excess oil in the combustion chamber.

[Bibio]

according to NGK 'furry' white plugs can indicate oil contamination...

http://www.ngksparkplugs.com/tech_support/spark_plugs/faqs/faqread.asp

your plugs look like the one at the top.

[flymo]

mmm, Exhaust valves are a little tight as mentioned. Wonder if you have some worn valve guide seals. With dodgy rings I would have expected oily plugs and continual smoking from the exhaust.

I would just adjust the valves to correct clearances and see how it runs.

[Nobbylad]

That was just the front cylinder as well, so I'll be checking the rear tonight hopefully.

I bunged new plugs in as the previous ones were getting on for 12k. Runs a little smoother, still smoking (might be paranoid, but seems to smoke more now - only notice it when stopped).

I'm assuming running it like with slightly tight valves won't kill it in the short term? I'll be adjusting them this weekend.

[punyXpress]

Check compression first, if that's good then I wouldn't bother with valve clearances yet. Usual sign of a problem would be a significant difference in compression between cylinders, very unlikely that a ring/valve would go in both at once.



Then put a drop of oil in each cylinder & re-do comptest.
This will establish whether it's rings (pressures go up) or valve seals.

[Nobbylad]

gonna stick with checking the rear valve clearances tonight, then adjust them all the weekend to get them back within spec, then compression test. No point forking out for a a compression tester if it's just the valve clearances....right?

[Nobbylad]

Rear clearances as follows:-

IN 0.15 - 0.15

EX 0.19/0.20 - 0.19/0.20 so just on the cusp of tolerance. The 0.19 would fit in with some resistance whereas the .20 was quite tight.

Am I right in thinking that the front exhausts being out wouldn't cause the smokiness, or is it entirely feasible?

If unlikey, looks like I'll need to buy a compression tester.

[flymo]

Rear clearances as follows:-

IN 0.15 - 0.15

EX 0.19/0.20 - 0.19/0.20 so just on the cusp of tolerance. The 0.19 would fit in with some resistance whereas the .20 was quite tight.

Am I right in thinking that the front exhausts being out wouldn't cause the smokiness, or is it entirely feasible?

If unlikey, looks like I'll need to buy a compression tester.

or if you are feeling as tight as that exhaust valve, you could always pop over here for a cuppa and stick mine on.

[suzukigt380paul]

if its burning oil then its f*ck all to do with valve clearance,the valves may or may not need doing but if there is clearance then it will run as well as its going to,blue smoke i think equals oil so maybe worn bores,depending on how the engine has been looked after the bores should last more then 40k,if it is the rings leaking oil then i would say rebore as new ring are unlikely to be a long term fix,when you say it uses oil how much does it use,and does the sv use oil cooled pistons like a bandit? if so then these tend to use more oil than a normal engine

[Nobbylad]

I'll be topping it up today to a level I can measure from, then seeing how much it's using. I'm pretty certain it's smoking all the time but definitely worse after a motorway run when you come to an idle.

[garynortheast]

Blue smoke is oil so worn bores or valve guides are likely to be the culprits.

[Nobbylad]

or if you are feeling as tight as that exhaust valve, you could always pop over here for a cuppa and stick mine on.

Thanks for the offer Mike, I'm at a wedding on your side on Saturday, but if you're around early doors on Sunday I might pop over for a second opinion if that's OK?

[flymo]

not sure I like the term 'early' ;-) for a Sunday. If its a reasonable hour then of course.

[Nobbylad]

lol - between 11am and 1pm probably if that's OK? Will text you to confirm.

[flymo]

that would work, although we'll be heading out just after 1pm.

[Nobbylad]

Just so you know what it's like, this is it after I got home today :(

Thinking of trying not to use it, but it is the daily commute so kinda hard not to!

As long as the oil is at the right level, I'll be OK right, or is there anything else that could be getting fubard whilst I'm riding it like this?

9gb2xREvjmY

[Noddy]

Can't see the video, it's private!

[Nobbylad]

fixed

[Bibio]

fecked... rebore time i reckon.

[suzukigt380paul]

you not running it on 2stroke mix,and the engine is running fine otherwise then i'd say it looks quite bad could be lots of things but to me i would say its the bore or a broken ring,does it do this when cold and when did it first start smoking

[Nobbylad]

No deffo not running it on 2st mix lol

1st started about 1500miles ago, getting worse the last week or so.

So if I whack the heads off and check the bores, I'm looking for scores right? If it's a knackered ring, it'll be obvious once I get the barrel off?

[Bibio]

yup. also check the lip at the top which will indicate ware.

it could just be gummed up rings so £4 on a flush and £30 on oil and filter might do the trick.

or save the £34 towards new rings and rebore. while your at it do the stem seals.

if its a broken ring then it will drop out when you fiddle with the rings. ALWAYS stuff a rag under the barrel when taking them off as you don't want bits dropping into your crank now do you...

[suzukigt380paul]

a broken ring may not be easy to see at first but if run over a long period it will try to escape and work its way out through the piston side some times,but it is possible you may see some ware on the bore or a lip on the top of the bore,or with the head off you can put some thing like wd on the piston when part way down the bore and see if it goes past the rings when left,the faster it goes the more likely there is a ring or bore problem,but as they say youll have to suckit and see,and i would say the problem will be easy to see,what ever that might be,

[suzukigt380paul]

yup. also check the lip at the top which will indicate ware.

it could just be gummed up rings so £4 on a flush and £30 on oil and filter might do the trick.

or save the £34 towards new rings and rebore. while your at it do the stem seals.

if its a broken ring then it will drop out when you fiddle with the rings. ALWAYS stuff a rag under the barrel when taking them off as you don't want bits dropping into your crank now do you... the last time i tried engine flush was on my sons fiesta 1.3 zetec which he used for work about 50 miles a day and it burnt/lost about a gallon every 2 weeks,it didnt seem to smoke and no oil leaks,so i used a engine flush thinking it might make it better and un gum the rings,WRONG or may be right after adding to the oil and running it as per the instructions and changing the oil i started it up i think you could describe it as the first 2 stroke fiesta,ive seen less smoke come from my neighbours bonefires,a few months later it expired on the A12 and pumped all its oil out through the excess gas pipe and into the air filter

[Nobbylad]

Any way of narrowing it down to which cylinder before I start stripping it? i.e. taking the front HT leads off so it's only running on the rear and vice versa or is it likely that any oil getting past the rings will end up in the exhaust and burning off as smoke anyway?

[suzukigt380paul]

Any way of narrowing it down to which cylinder before I start stripping it? i.e. taking the front HT leads off so it's only running on the rear and vice versa or is it likely that any oil getting past the rings will end up in the exhaust and burning off as smoke anyway?thats a hard one you could try a compression test that might show up the problem cylinder asuming it is only one cylinder,but if its worn bores then they might be both as bad as each other,on a side note has any one else on a sv suffered similar problems, but i would say normally at 40k the engine should still be in good health

[flymo]

I would be very surprised if the same problem exists across both cylinders unless you've been running very low oil level etc. My guess is that you'll see very low compression on one of them.

A leakdown test with a process of elimination would probably let you narrow down the problem before stripping anything.

[Sid Squid]

It's only got 40 on it, it shouldn't be knackered for a good few miles yet unless something very unfortunate has happened to it, get a compression test done* - but don't be surprised if neither is that low.
Blowing gallons of smoke, but not running very badly - often equals broken ring.

*Compression test is easier, but leak down test is preferable and gives lots more info.

[Nobbylad]

I'll be taking it to the local bike shop, haven't got time to strip it properly and with no garage, it's a pain in the hoop.

[Nobbylad]

Local bike shop did a compression test and the rear was 20psi less than the front which could indicate it's the rear cylinder.

This weekend I'm stripping the rear to check the piston rings/barrel and also replace the stem seals. As this will be the first ever time I've done this, I was thinking of just taking the head off and taking it to the bike shop for them to take the valves out/fit the new seals. They were on about grinding the valves back in, which corroborates with the book of lies.

I managed to get new rings (sale or return), new seals (x8 - no harm in having spares), new gaskets for cheap so think I have all I need, just hope it cures the smoking!

[flymo]

fitting the valves and seals is fairly easy to do, even giving them a grind isnt that tricky.

You may have to lightly hone the cylinder bore but will need a spring loaded hone or similar to do that. Depends what condition its in.

Also dont forget to re-check clearances after refitting, especially if grinding the valve faces.

[Nobbylad]

Cheers Mike, it's one of those jobs though that, whilst it's probably easy once you've done it, I'm bound to lose a collet or something when I'm doing it. For a couple of hours labour, I'll probably take the head to the shop to get done so I don't have any qualms putting it all back on. I really need to get the bike sorted for commuting and, although I've used it today, I don't like to because of the bloomin' smoke when I come to a stop.

[Nobbylad]

Unless you're offering to lend a hand one afternoon this weekend obviously ;)

[Owenski]

If they did a compression test to identify the rear cylinder did they not do a leak down test to identify the point which its fecked? No point taking off the piston and barrel if its only a valve problem.

[Nobbylad]

Didn't do a leak down test, just compression. I can check the piston in situ, but would need the barrel off to do so.

[flymo]

Unless you're offering to lend a hand one afternoon this weekend obviously ;)

Happy to help if you want to pop over.

[flymo]

If they did a compression test to identify the rear cylinder did they not do a leak down test to identify the point which its fecked? No point taking off the piston and barrel if its only a valve problem.

If the heads coming off then removing the remainder isnt much of a biggy. Would be useful to know upfront if its valves though to save on replacing piston rings that arent required.

[flymo]

Cheers Mike, it's one of those jobs though that, whilst it's probably easy once you've done it, I'm bound to lose a collet or something when I'm doing it. For a couple of hours labour, I'll probably take the head to the shop to get done so I don't have any qualms putting it all back on. I really need to get the bike sorted for commuting and, although I've used it today, I don't like to because of the bloomin' smoke when I come to a stop.

Up to you Mark, its a fairly straightforward thing to do and something I've done a fair few times. At least we get the luxury of doing this in a garage on a bench instead of at the side of a racetrack.

[Nobbylad]

Up to you Mark, its a fairly straightforward thing to do and something I've done a fair few times. At least we get the luxury of doing this in a garage on a bench instead of at the side of a racetrack.

OK - if you're sure, then I'd be grateful if you could lend a hand. When is best for you this weekend (I imagine we'd need 2-3hrs)?

Let me know if you want me to give you a buzz.

[suzukigt380paul]

fitting the valves and seals is fairly easy to do, even giving them a grind isnt that tricky.

You may have to lightly hone the cylinder bore but will need a spring loaded hone or similar to do that. Depends what condition its in.

Also dont forget to re-check clearances after refitting, especially if grinding the valve faces.when i hone the bore i sometimes use a bottle brush honer,this is what they normaly run through a rebored barrel at my local enginering shop

[flymo]

(I imagine we'd need 2-3hrs)?


Ha ha!

That was a bit of a marathon eh? Plenty of de-coking, x2 custom ground valve shims (all the bike parts shops shut by the time we needed 'em), 5 or so cuppas, couple of pasties and a full packet of choccy hobnobs later....

How did the run home go? It certainly looked a whole lot less smoky than when you arrived.

[Nobbylad]

I know...12hr mega session, but then again, we must have fitted the cylinder head about 6 times lol.

The bench ground custom shims were definitely the highlight especially as they gapped perfectly!

Unfortunately it's smoking like a fourteen year old in the park with a bottle of Merrydown again so it's either the front seals/valves/rings or the rear rings.

:(

[flymo]

I know...12hr mega session, but then again, we must have fitted the cylinder head about 6 times lol.

The bench ground custom shims were definitely the highlight especially as they gapped perfectly!

Unfortunately it's smoking like a fourteen year old in the park with a bottle of Merrydown again so it's either the front seals/valves/rings or the rear rings.

:(

ah crap. May be best to invest in a leakdown tester to nail down the exact cause(s) before removing anything. About £50 on ebay.

[Nobbylad]

Yeah... probably going to get one from Halfords later today and get the bike in the kitchen to work on it. I know it was dark when I left, but the smoke was not billowing out like it was previously and it was almost brown rather than light blue. May be the front seals and valves need doing as well or maybe there's some very slight damage to the rings somewhere letting oil past under power.

[suzukigt380paul]

just how does a leak down test work,ive seen the kits on ebay where you put a air line in the spark plug hole and see if the pressure goes down and if the pressure does go down how do you then know if its going past the rings or valves,unless the loss is so great you can here it coming through the exhaust or carbs or through the excess gas pipe or oil filler cap,and if the valve stem seals are drawing oil through this wont show at all,correct me if im wrong. being a old school mechanic i thought if the engine was apart if you poured something like petrol on the upturned head with the valves still in the head and it didnt leak out then that was a good sign although i no the valves would be under far more pressure under use,and the other question i would be asking myself would be what would cause such a low milage engine(i believe you said it had done 30k)to start burning oil

[flymo]

Because you can listen from various points on the engine, air leaking past the piston rings can be heard at the crankcase vents etc, from exhaust valves it can be heard at the exhaust and so on.

nobby, the front valves will almost certainly be the same as the rear. What we found was simply down to mileage in my opinion and so every reason to expect front to be exactly the same. What would be useful as a next step is to check leakage past the rear piston rings, now that we know the rear valves are sealing well. If you get leakage there then fair to expect that both sets of rings need doing also.

[flymo]

being a old school mechanic i thought if the engine was apart if you poured something like petrol on the upturned head with the valves still in the head and it didnt leak out then that was a good sign

You would be correct, the seepage can be so slight that its very difficult to see. Its more effective to clean up the valve faces and head and then poor a little fuel down the exhaust chamber and inlet chamber and watch the valve faces. Even the slightest leak can be seen as the fuel seeps past. There should be none at all.

The rear valves were perfect when we finished.

The big advantage of a leakdown is that you can diagnose problems before stripping anything.

[Nobbylad]

Took the front head off today, pics below....

Valves

http://i11.photobucket.com/albums/a161/nobbylad/IMAG0876.jpg

Piston

http://i11.photobucket.com/albums/a161/nobbylad/IMAG0878.jpg

[flymo]

Took the front head off today, pics below....



Looks exactly the same as the rear, no obvious damage from those pics.

[Nobbylad]

I'm gonna clean it all up tonight and have also decided that, whilst the head is off and I already have a gasket for the barrel, I may as well take the barrel out and check for obvious damage to the rings/barrel. If it's still smoking once it's all back together, the only other thing it could be is the rear rings/barrel, as we didn't look at those on Saturday.

Yesterday I loosened the exhaust, ran it for a few minutes, then pulled the exhaust out and blipped it a few times. Only the front appeared to be smoking (what a bloody racket as well!).

I still need to get some 'proper' sized shims for the rear cylinder, as I don't fancy running the custom ones we ground down on Saturday. So while I'm at it, I'll probably put the curvy cams in, which have been sat around in a box waiting for an opportunity to get fitted.

Thanks Mike for your help so far and a shout out to YC who calmed me down last night after I thought there was a chunk of aluminium missing from the exhaust valve bore.....turns out it's a channel for the PAIR system, but was so full of carp it looked just like a lump out of the head (you might be able to make it out in the top right hand side of the bore on the bottom right).

http://i11.photobucket.com/albums/a161/nobbylad/IMAG0885.jpg

[flymo]

I'm gonna clean it all up tonight and have also decided that, whilst the head is off and I already have a gasket for the barrel, I may as well take the barrel out and check for obvious damage to the rings/barrel.

You could also gently rotate the crank so that the piston drops into the barrell (keep hold of that cam chain!) and view the bore, or most of it, without disturbing the cylinder block. New piston rings aren't necessarily better than rings that are already worn in properly.

[Nobbylad]

Good thinking....re the cam chain, it's quite happy sitting 'flopped' out over the front of the barrel, however I do have a bungee on it just to be on the safe side ;)

[Nobbylad]

So, after almost 2 weekends of fettling, I can now declare my SV a...

http://i11.photobucket.com/albums/a161/nobbylad/smoke-free-environment-in-los-angeles-eateries.jpg

Big thanks to Flymo for the use of his double garage, endless array of tools and well made tea (and nice pasties) to do the rear cylinder and also for his (and YC's) telephone support (all calls charged at local rate).

After cleaning all the carp off the valve stems, fitting new seals and cobbling it all back together, my SV has kicked the habit without so much as a nicotine patch in sight!

HrAFYKtzy4w

[flymo]

fantastic. Good effort.

[Nobbylad]

Yeah.... cheers Mike, thanks again for all your help!

[Bibio]

hope it don't get withdrawal symptoms.

nice one m8.

[Nobbylad]

hope it don't get withdrawal symptoms.

nice one m8.

Lol...cheers Lance, I even managed to fit the TB extensions whilst I had everything in bits. The bike is running a bit rough atm, so probably due a balance anyway, so that'll make things easier for sure.

[flymo]

those videos make a great 'before & after' combo.