View Full Version : Puncture repairs
Bordtea
21-05-12, 12:26 PM
Why does nowhere do these anymore? I've managed to find only one garage in pretty much a good 20 mile radius that will repair a Z rated tyre. Some places only do rear tyres, some say they won't because of the manufacturers recommendations (of course the bloody manufacturer won't want a tyre repaired, they want you to buy a new one!) and even one place told me the 'ministry' has told them not to!?
So yes, well done to Nick Robinson Motorcycles who are willing to repair my puncture, though I really cannot understand why nowhere else will.
Owenski
21-05-12, 12:30 PM
I was of the impression that all puncture repairs are temp fixes designed to get you home/ to a garage where you should replace the tyre ASAP.
Due to that I would imagine its because most shops wont want the potential hassle of an accident on their doorstep after someone rides excessive distances on what is only meant to be a intrim solution.
Why does nowhere do these I really cannot understand why nowhere else will.
because if it goes wrong the individual who carried out the repair can face 6 months in jail and thousands in fines.
Bordtea
21-05-12, 12:35 PM
because if it goes wrong the individual who carried out the repair can face 6 months in jail and thousands in fines.
But how can it go wrong? I've got a puncture that's not ridiculous, goes down maybe 10psi in 24 hours so it's not a potential blowout. If the puncture repair failed, the tyre isn't going to blow on me at 70mph, it's just going to carry back on as normal, deflating at 10psi per 24 hours surely?
I stand to be corrected though.
It's down as policy why we can't on z rated .So likely the same on all companies who don't.
If the puncture repair was viable I'd fix my own.
SoulKiss
21-05-12, 12:53 PM
Yawn, this old one again...
See here
http://forums.sv650.org/showthread.php?t=135862
and here
http://forums.sv650.org/showthread.php?t=135862
SoulKiss
21-05-12, 01:01 PM
Wood . Sleepers SK ?
Had a voicemail the other day saying they were still looking into it.
If you have access to some real trees then they will do just as well and will not involve trips into south London :)
I'll ask about .
Might be post US.
SoulKiss
21-05-12, 01:17 PM
Thought you had a supply?
I can see it. But would I hope over the fence and nick it .......
SoulKiss
21-05-12, 01:21 PM
Stolen wood burns better :p
Owenski
21-05-12, 01:27 PM
Yawn, this old one again...
See here
http://forums.sv650.org/showthread.php?t=135862
and here
http://forums.sv650.org/showthread.php?t=135862
Admitantly it makes it more impressive if you post 2 links but it only works if you link two differnt ones ;)
Will wait and see if Dave comes up trumps.
How much in weight.
SoulKiss
21-05-12, 01:35 PM
Admitantly it makes it more impressive if you post 2 links but it only works if you link two differnt ones ;)
Yawn, this old one again...
See here
http://forums.sv650.org/showthread.php?t=154978 (http://forums.sv650.org/showthread.php?t=135862)
and here
http://forums.sv650.org/showthread.php?t=135862
Don't know what you are talking about :p
But how can it go wrong? I've got a puncture that's not ridiculous, goes down maybe 10psi in 24 hours so it's not a potential blowout. If the puncture repair failed, the tyre isn't going to blow on me at 70mph, it's just going to carry back on as normal, deflating at 10psi per 24 hours surely?
I stand to be corrected though.
I'm afraid it's not quite that simple.
The tyre is removed, and the offending article removed, leaving a small hole. This small hole is probably too small to accept the bung that will fix it, and anyway, the sides may be jagged. Often the tyre shop will drill the hole out to the correct size and then fit a patch / bung from the inside, and cut it to length. This is completely safe and standard, but the hole that now exists is not the same as the one at the start, so if it were to fail the air loss could be greater than that of the original puncture.
Again, this spectacularly unlikely, and I've happily done thousands of miles and track days on professionally repaired tyres using the above method without any issue at all.
Jambo
Owenski
21-05-12, 02:09 PM
Don't know what you are talking about :p
ha, I predicted your move so quoted your orginal... I learnt that from you lol :)
SoulKiss
21-05-12, 02:34 PM
ha, I predicted your move so quoted your orginal... I learnt that from you lol :)
Now go build your own Lightsabre :)
You will note that I didn't edit my original faux-pas, just the version I quoted :)
You can allways fix it your self.
Then if it goes t###s up you can haunt yourself ;)
StewartR
21-05-12, 03:16 PM
Whad'ya know - In they same town with the same problem and ended up at the same place. My mate's DL, not my SV thankfully. I ended up doing the do though as I have a car and he just has a unicycle :)
'Ride In' in Reading will do repairs as well but I couldn't get there before they sloped off for their early Monday close so it's being dropped at Nick's tonight and I'll scoop it up on my way home tomorrow.
Bordtea
21-05-12, 04:24 PM
Whad'ya know - In they same town with the same problem and ended up at the same place. My mate's DL, not my SV thankfully. I ended up doing the do though as I have a car and he just has a unicycle :)
'Ride In' in Reading will do repairs as well but I couldn't get there before they sloped off for their early Monday close so it's being dropped at Nick's tonight and I'll scoop it up on my way home tomorrow.
Haha it's a joke! No chance of me getting a new tyre when it's got plenty of tread left in it and it's not squared off. More places around here need to do them. I'll remember 'Ride In' for next time if Nick Robinsons decide to follow the sheep :thumbsup:
it also depends where abouts on the tyre it is.
You can buy tyre gloop and fill your tyres with it. It will repair most punctures up to a certain size, google for different makes and the properties.
SoulKiss
21-05-12, 05:46 PM
it also depends where abouts on the tyre it is.
You can buy tyre gloop and fill your tyres with it. It will repair most punctures up to a certain size, google for different makes and the properties.
Goop may make it impossible for the superior Mushroom fix tho.
Sid Squid
21-05-12, 07:09 PM
But how can it go wrong? I've got a puncture that's not ridiculous, goes down maybe 10psi in 24 hours so it's not a potential blowout. If the puncture repair failed, the tyre isn't going to blow on me at 70mph, it's just going to carry back on as normal, deflating at 10psi per 24 hours surely?
Doesn't work like that at all, a repair to BSAU159 uses a mushroom headed plug inserted through a prepared hole, which is reamed to ensure good contact all over the plug stem and such that the flat part of the plug is not distorted when fitted.
Read this from some time ago, not all the same as the point you raise but similar enough to be relevant:
Just because someone declines to repair a tyre does not mean they are thieves.
There are many factors that decide whether a tyre repair is suitable or not, much of which is the liability that a repairer will be obliged to shoulder because of the situation surrounding the business, repairs are not illegal, but they are not allowed by the relevant British standard, (BSAU159), which does not allow repairs to 'Z' rated tyres - so despite the feelings related above the tyre place aren't just being robbers. Following BSAU159 advice is hardly the wrong thing to do, this standard, (like most British standards), isn't bad advice, but of course sometimes it may be considered overcautious.
That said, some tyre manufacturers - not all - will allow repairs to 'Z' rated tyres, but they are very specific about what can be repaired and how those repairs can be made - mostly their requirements are broadly similar to the repair standards laid down in BSAU159. Also you should know that once the tyre has been repaired it will have a significantly reduced speed rating. Whether you choose to follow that is a personal choice of course.
This bears repeating:
BSAU159 is not specifically a legal requirement, so a garage that will repair a 'Z' rated tyre is not breaking the law, and dependant on which brand your tyre is it may or may not be OK with the maker. That said any repair is, again broadly speaking, decided on three factors: firstly the tyre must be examined to ensure that its structure has not been damaged, secondly that the injury is within an allowable area for repair, and thirdly that the damage caused can physically be sealed - not all can.
There are plenty of places that will repair tyres, and most simple punctures are suitable for repair, but when they won't it isn't just that they want to sell you another tyre, it just isn't that simple.
As mentioned above Essential Rubber will do repairs, but depending on the damage they too may decline to do so.
Dicky Ticker
21-05-12, 08:57 PM
Running on an grossly under inflated tyre can damage the carcass so it is not always the case of just repairing the puncture when there might be structural damage to the tyre as a whole.
Bordtea
22-05-12, 04:51 PM
Turns out it was a leaking valve, happy days.
A local garage fitted a plug in my rear tyre, it had only done ~1000 miles and it still firmly in place now and not losing pressure 4000 miles later. It wasn't one of those temporary plugs though. Mechanic took the tyre off the rim and glued the plug in there. Cost £25 and 30 minutes work.
StewartR
23-05-12, 12:14 PM
Nicks repair seems good on the DL wheel I took in so everyone's a winner :)
StewartR
30-05-12, 10:06 PM
Follow up: the repair failed and the area where the carcass puncture was was noticeable weaker than any other part of the tyre. Put me right off repairs.
Bordtea
30-05-12, 11:03 PM
Bloody hell, it didnt blow did it?
suzukigt380paul
30-05-12, 11:30 PM
Goop may make it impossible for the superior Mushroom fix tho.but if youve only got a puncture in the tread part of the tyre and use something like puncture safe then it will last the life of the tyre and you wont need to put a mushroom in it,and i know this to be true as every tyre i put on the rear of my bandit 6 has had a puncture at low miles,and i'm just about to put the fourth set of tyres on it since ive owned it
StewartR
31-05-12, 08:47 AM
Hi Bordtea,
no, no blowout. Just a skittish @rse end, a 'D'oh!' and a couple of hours waiting for recovery, stuck by the roadside on a roasting day when he should have been ragging his DL round the country lanes of this fair shire. On the plus side he wasn't spanking it down a motorway - that could have been a different story.
Assuming you put some value on your own time, if you factor the in the cost of the repair (£20), the effort in getting the reapair done and the scr3wed up Sunday then it really seems a false economy.
but if youve only got a puncture in the tread part of the tyre and use something like puncture safe then it will last the life of the tyre and you wont need to put a mushroom in it,and i know this to be true as every tyre i put on the rear of my bandit 6 has had a puncture at low miles,and i'm just about to put the fourth set of tyres on it since ive owned it
Can't comment on Puncture Safe. Maybe that's the way. The scenario I was talking about was physical repair.
SoulKiss
31-05-12, 09:01 AM
Well I guess it cant work everytime.
However in my experience EVERY set of tyres I have had replaced has had a mushroom in them by their end of life due to wear, and tbh I couldn't even tell you if the current tyres on either of my bikes are plugged or not - I think the Zed is - thats how much thought I give to the matter.
Follow up: the repair failed and the area where the carcass puncture was was noticeable weaker than any other part of the tyre. Put me right off repairs.
How was this repair done?
StewartR
31-05-12, 04:24 PM
Don't know TBH. Would guess it was a mushroom.
StewartR
02-06-12, 07:35 PM
More follow up: Article in RiDE in which a professional puncture repair type chap says....
He only repairs Michelin because they have kevlar belt as opposed to steel. Drilling for the repair will hole the kevlar but not compromise it whereas it could cut through individual strands in the steel.
Also, repairs to sidewall are illegal.
Also, puncture prevention slime is a no no as it imbalances the wheel.
Also, lots and lots of roadside repair kits reviewed. All get you home, 40 mph alternatives to waiting for Messrs RAC, AA, Green Flag etc.
Also, it's bl@@dy raining.
All* this is just mindlessly regurgitated and purely FYI.
*Apart from the rain bit, that was all me :)
This?
http://www.btmauk.com/data/files/Minor_repairs_to_passenger_car_and_light_van_tyres _31_May_2011.pdf
suzukigt380paul
02-06-12, 11:05 PM
This?
http://www.btmauk.com/data/files/Minor_repairs_to_passenger_car_and_light_van_tyres _31_May_2011.pdfuseful info,but still a load of boll0cks saying liquid filler aint a permanent repair and no tubeless tyres should be used with a innertube
StewartR
02-06-12, 11:12 PM
That. And...
'If you get a puncture in a Michelin tyre you can repair it and the tyre is still safe because the [kevlar] belt is still solid.
I've spoken to guys at Michelin about this and they told me they had repaired one of their tyres 30 times just to see what had happened and it was fine.
But most motorcycle tyre manufacturers use steel belts and even if you only get a small puncture in one of their tyres you have to drill through the tyre to fit a plug. That means you could be drilling through the steel cable of the belt, so the tyre doesn't have any structural strength left in it.
The belt is made up of one band of steel that's wrapped round and round the tyre and at high speed, the loops of steel will try to pull apart if there's any damage to one part of it.
Another problem is that the steel can start to rust if you've had a puncture. So the reason people often refuse to fix punctures is because they can't guarantee how safe the tyre is going to be afterwards and they don't want any insurance claims against them.'
Mark Brunt of Mobile Bike Tyres, quoted in RiDE, July 2012 issue.
Don't get how all that fits with 'There is no limit to the number of minor repairs in area ‘T’ provided that repair patches do not overlap.' from section 3b in the BTMA doc, unless car and bike structure is fundamentally different.
rictus01
03-06-12, 12:01 AM
from a purely practical stand point and near a million and ahalf road mile by bike, I'll add the following.
puncture repair at the roadside, sticky string kits are the best and will get you home in circumstances where a bung kit wouldn't, be award of the limitations of use (speed/distance) but there are far more robust than are stated.
Liquid fillers, they are fine for certain uses (off road days being one of the times I've used them) but I wouldn't use or recommend them for normal road bikes, they are effective to a point, in fact so effective you could well have multiple objects in the tyre and not even know, right up to the point of catastrophic failure, this is avoided of course by regular visual checks of your tyres (which you should be doing anyway), I like to know I have a screw or something else in the tyre when it happens for two main reasons, the first it I can address it immediately and limit the work the tyre will do until permanently repaired, the second is I don't leave an object in there which could (and I've actually seen this) cause a sawing action through use and make a fixable puncture into a non-fixable one.
permanent repair (internal mushroom type). I've used these many times and never had a problem as long as they are in the prescribed area, the steel belt/wire doesn't come undone, it's not loose but captured by the moulding of the rubber so doesn't act like one strand and retains it's integrity.
Of course there are always the odd balls and exceptions, but then that happens with everything anyway.
Cheers Mark.
suzukigt380paul
03-06-12, 03:55 AM
from a purely practical stand point and near a million and ahalf road mile by bike, I'll add the following.
Liquid fillers, they are fine for certain uses (off road days being one of the times I've used them) but I wouldn't use or recommend them for normal road bikes they are effective to a point, in fact so effective you could well have multiple objects in the tyre and not even know, right up to the point of catastrophic failure, this is avoided of course by regular visual checks
i have to disagree in part with the above statement,and products like "puncture safe" are a permanent repair for most small punctures,this isnt a road side repair product,it can be put in a new tyre or after a puncture is found and then reinflated,i understand what you are saying about not knowing about multiple objects in tyres but this really doesn't hold water as you can get multiple objects in a tubless tyre anyway with only a slow loss of air,and on the plus side you shouldn't get a sudden deflation when useing said product if you get a mayor puncture at speed,and puncture safe is safe for (cant tell you the exact speck)over 150 mph,i know i havent done 1.5million miles but i have run 3 tyres with punctures with never a problem after useing puncture safe,these were all nearly new tyres as thats the only tyres that i normally get a nail or thorn in,and my local motorcycle shop used to put this product in new tyre fitments (at a cost to the owner) but they did recomend having it put in,and i have also heard it said that the likes of the post office use this product to save on road side repairs,
rictus01
03-06-12, 04:17 AM
i have to disagree in part with the above statement,and products like "puncture safe" are a permanent repair for most small punctures and exactly how would you know it's a small or otherwise puncture ?,this isnt a road side repair product,it can be put in a new tyre or after a puncture is found and then reinflated,i understand what you are saying about not knowing about multiple objects in tyres but this really doesn't hold water as you can get multiple objects in a tubless tyre anyway with only a slow loss of air but you would still know it had happened so the tyre would get inspected ,and on the plus side you shouldn't get a sudden deflation when useing said product if you get a mayor puncture at speed,and puncture safe is safe for (cant tell you the exact speck)over 150 mph I've had two "sudden deflation" both long split type cuts, neither would have been avoided with any self sealing fluid,i know i havent done 1.5million miles but i have run 3 tyres with punctures with never a problem after useing puncture safe,these were all nearly new tyres as thats the only tyres that i normally get a nail or thorn in,and my local motorcycle shop used to put this product in new tyre fitments (at a cost to the owner) but they did recomend having it put in,and i have also heard it said that the likes of the post office use this product to save on road side repairs yeah my old company used a similar product in there fleet, but it was developed for car/van type vehicles (and we know tyres work far differently on those) and that was mainly because the drivers weren't qualified to fix punctures and the cost of recovery.
Cheers Mark.
suzukigt380paul
03-06-12, 05:38 AM
Cheers Mark.
never had a tyre split car or bike,have run a bike on a flat tyre while loaded with camping gear following a slower bike,and thinking it handled odd,that left me stranded on a layby on th A14 while a can off get me home foam was found,this would have been avoided if the tyre had been protected with a product,its swings and round abouts,if you run over a sharp object and cause a large wound then nothing will stop it,if on the other hand you run over/pick up a small nail on a motorway miles from home then a untreated tyre will leave you on the side of the road and the treated one will keep you going,dont get me wrong i normally only use said product after ive found a puncture as its a permanent repair and saves time and gets you back on the road,but if i did alot of miles on one bike i would most like put it in as a preventer
rictus01
03-06-12, 06:08 AM
as I said in my first post, sticky string repairs have worked everytime I've used them, and more importantly have let me know to get the tyre inspected (from the inside) when the mushroom type permanent repair was done, over the years I've used many of the bike tyre places across London and not found one that likes the stuff, I do about 40,000 miles a year now (a lot less than I used to, but still a fair amount) and even though part of my weekly service/bike check is a visual inspection of both tyres; I still wouldn't have that in mine, I'd rather find the tyre flat when I come to the bike (which is what normally happens on a slow one) and spend the 3 minutes to fix it, than not know I had something stuck in it.
But I guess it's a case of what makes you happy, these liquid fillers have been around for sometime, but never really caught on, be it the handling issue (you get your tyres balanced for minimal construction weight deviations, then add a bulk of sloshing liquid...), or the lack of tyre care than normally replaces regular inspections, or even the fact it's used up every tyre change whether it was needed or not so a constant outlay (I've no idea the cost, but 4-5 times a years has got to be significantly more than a puncture kit), I could possibly see a point to it if I was on a long touring holiday I suppose and would be in a region where I couldn't get a proper fix done for sometime (tour of africa or something), and as I said earlier I have used it trails bikes off road before, but the downsides outweight the up.
Cheers Mark.
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