Legal to push a sorn bike?

[Dave_es94]

My friend has offered to clean all the inside of my bike for me :), However it is currently sorn as i havent insured it just yet, it has tax and MOT just no insurance, would it be legal to push it to his house?

[widepants]

is the pavement allowed ?

[Dave_es94]

Yes im going to push it on the pavement

[widepants]

why not ask th local plod ( not my fault if they give you the wrong info)

[NTECUK]

its going to be a no.

[Dave_es94]

Whys that? i cant see why its illegal if its off the road?, Seriously what is the point of Sorn..

[twowheels]

id just take the numberplate off it and push it, tell them its a track bike if they ask, i shouldnt think the fuzz will bother even so.

[SoulKiss]

If its SORN, how can it have Tax?

[NTECUK]

They will look at it as being on the public space.
And if it gets pinged by ANP you in the do.
Mind you as your number plate fell off theres not so much chance of that.
dsiconect the battery then It wont start if mr Plod challenges you
.

[twowheels]

i could tax my bike and declare it sorn tomorrow and still have 6 months tax left i guess?

[Dave_es94]

^^ yup it still had tax when i sorned it

[Dave_es94]

Could always take the numberplate off, disconnect the battery and say it was a track bike? say its still sorned and everything?

[SoulKiss]

i could tax my bike and declare it sorn tomorrow and still have 6 months tax left i guess?

^^ yup it still had tax when i sorned it

It is either taxed OR SORNed, cant be both and they are very different legal states.

My Zed is a non-runner at the moment, the tax is up at the end of the month.

If I decalre it SORN with effect from 1st June today, it will still be taxed until the end of this month, which means I could push it up until then as it is legally allowed to be on the road.

If it was the 1st June then it may be iffy for it to be there.

[JamesMio]

If it's close enough to push it, just ride the thing there late at night!

I take no respinsibilty if you get caught, mind!

[twowheels]

Could always take the numberplate off, disconnect the battery and say it was a track bike? say its still sorned and everything?


yeah if it were me, id do just that - leave the battery though, keep the V5 and some ID on your just on the off chance they question you but to be fair i think youll be fine

[Owenski]

I cant speak for the common sense of the every day police officer but I would have thought them more than reasonable enough to see you've got no bike gear on you (clearly no intention to ride it) and if you carry the docs to prove you're the legal owner and that its SORN etc then they should applaude your efforts to remain within the law despite turning the key and riding it been the much easier option.

NB: Thats based purely on "reasonability and logic" neither of which feature highly in the upholding of the law.

[MisterTommyH]

is the pavement allowed ?

Technically he public highway extends from back of pavement to back of pavement. Any any motorvehicle on the public highway has to be legal... i.e. tax, insurance and MOT.

However, that's the letter of the law and as above I'd hope there would be some common sense applied.

[Cymraeg_Atodeg]

As far as I am aware the need for road tax is for if the vehicle is in use and to where it is parked.

If you are walking down the road pushing the bike WITHOUT the keys and when you park it afterwards it is on private land then road tax does not come in to effect as you are not using the vehicle.

If the issue is you not having insurance, again, walk WITHOUT the keys and you'll be fine as you can't use the vehicle without it's keys.

[SoulKiss]

As far as I am aware the need for road tax is for if the vehicle is in use and to where it is parked.

If you are walking down the road pushing the bike WITHOUT the keys and when you park it afterwards it is on private land then road tax does not come in to effect as you are not using the vehicle.

If the issue is you not having insurance, again, walk WITHOUT the keys and you'll be fine as you can't use the vehicle without it's keys.

Tachnically even pushing it is still using it, regardless of the keys being present or not. After all the keys are not usually in a parked vehicle and I don't think the presence of the owner/operator counts for anything.

As far as I am aware an untaxed vehicle should not be on the public highway, regardless of if its moving or parked.

[NTECUK]

Id risk it and if a policeman comes and asks
I can allways do an impresion of a Pikey
"Hey HeyDa Ya like dawwgs"

[widepants]

Tachnically even pushing it is still using it, regardless of the keys being present or not. After all the keys are not usually in a parked vehicle and I don't think the presence of the owner/operator counts for anything.

As far as I am aware an untaxed vehicle should not be on the public highway, regardless of if its moving or parked.
does that include towing a car to the scrappy then

[The Guru]

Put it in a trailer or van. Simples.

Carry on. :salut:

[Cymraeg_Atodeg]

Tachnically even pushing it is still using it, regardless of the keys being present or not. After all the keys are not usually in a parked vehicle and I don't think the presence of the owner/operator counts for anything.

As far as I am aware an untaxed vehicle should not be on the public highway, regardless of if its moving or parked.

Because a car is parked on a public highway it means it can be used. If you you don't have the keys for it you can't exactly be told you are using it.

It is like being done for drink driving, you then can't use any mechanically propelled vehicle. If the engine isn't running it isn't mechanically operated.

If my bike was SORNed I would push it down the road and not feel to worried about it

[monkey]

I can't believe there are so many serious replies here. Just push it there!

If I got nicked for that I'd quite happily attend court to make the plod who nicked me look stupid.

[W4tto]

Technically illegal to have a bike ona road or other public place (pavement) HOWEVER I've yet to come across someone who'd knock you off for it. Prob just ask a few questions if they saw you as it'd look like you'd just nicked it. I'm sure you'll be ok...

[Spank86]

If your vehicle is sorn'd and parked on a public road it's illegal.

Even if it's in a marked parking space that constitutes part of a public road they can still do you for it, and have done on one of those tv police shows. It wou
D be the owner of the vehicle that got done not necessarily the one pushing it or whoever parked it but if it's on public roads it's illegal.

That said I'd still do it with the plate off because most coppers are reasonable people.

[SoulKiss]

If your vehicle is sorn'd and parked on a public road it's illegal.

Even if it's in a marked parking space that constitutes part of a public road they can still do you for it, and have done on one of those tv police shows. It wou
D be the owner of the vehicle that got done not necessarily the one pushing it or whoever parked it but if it's on public roads it's illegal.

That said I'd still do it with the plate off because most coppers are reasonable people.

Funnily, the lack of plate is more likely to make them less reasonable.

[ryanh1418]

To answer the question asked, no it's not.
Take off or disconnect whatever you like, keys or no keys, it remains a mechanically propelled vehicle and needs the lot to be on the road. Pushing it constitutes driving as you're in control of the speed and direction of that vehicle.

May not be the answer people like or expect but it's the answer. Put it this way, someone pushing a broken down/disabled car down the road loses control of it and it runs into your motor. Would you be happy when they turned round and said they weren't documented?

And yes, the highway is verge to verge and includes the pavement.

And re the drink drive post above, you're referring more to drunk in charge. Not having the keys goes some (a long) way to proving your lack of intent to drive. It doesn't stop the car/bike being a mpv!

[-Ralph-]

Pushing it constitutes driving

So why is it that it's illegal to ride over a pavement unless there is a part of the pavement specifically designated for the purpose (ie: a drop kerb), but it's not illegal to push the bike over the same bit of pavement?

[Spank86]

Are you talking about bicycles there ralph or motorbikes?

[-Ralph-]

Are you talking about bicycles there ralph or motorbikes?

Any vehicle. It's illegal to ride or drive across a pavement in most cases unless there is a drop kerb. You can't get done for parking on private land such as your front garden, but you can get done for riding or driving across the pavement to get there. But you are allowed to get out, or get off, and push it there.

My question then is what law dictates that pushing is the same as riding?

[twowheels]

i can't believe there are so many serious replies here. Just push it there!

If i got nicked for that i'd quite happily attend court to make the plod who nicked me look stupid.

the voice of reason!!!!!

[Spank86]

well with regard to bicycles I know you're allowed to push them because a judge has rules that pushing isnt substantively different to carrying and you still represent a pedestrian carrying a load.

With motorbikes I dont think the issue is the pushing (or any other means of propulsion) on the pavement so much as having a vehicle on a public highway without the required insurance, MOT, and tax.

[-Ralph-]

In England the police don't take you to court anyway, the CPS do, so it'd probably never get that far.

[-Ralph-]

With motorbikes I dont think the issue is the pushing (or any other means of propulsion) on the pavement so much as having a vehicle on a public highway without the required insurance, MOT, and tax.

Let's try again shall we.

I know of a law which differentiates between pushing and driving, where driving is illegal but pushing is not.

I know the title of the thread, but I'm not asking whether the vehicle needs to be taxed, or MOT'd or insured, I am challenging this statement

Pushing it constitutes driving as you're in control of the speed and direction of that vehicle

and asking RyanH or anyone else who thinks they may know the answer, to substantiate that statement with fact.

I'm not saying it's right or wrong, I'm just asking for a bit of proof.

[dizzyblonde]

Listen, I need a new chain and sprockets next week, and my Rap is SORN'd with not much left on the MOT(prob nowt) I don't have a van, so I can push it round to mr rob a couple of streets away to fit the chain and sprockets and to do the MOT....

Theres no frickin petrol in the damn thing coz YC sucked it all out.....so its A PUSH BIKE!.....not illegal to PUSH a BICYCLE :smt082

[dizzyblonde]

Any vehicle. It's illegal to ride or drive across a pavement in most cases unless there is a drop kerb. You can't get done for parking on private land such as your front garden, but you can get done for riding or driving across the pavement to get there. But you are allowed to get out, or get off, and push it there.

My question then is what law dictates that pushing is the same as riding?


I can back you up on this.

My curb hasn't been lowered in front of the block paving in my garden. I got planning permission years ago for the work to be carried out, but at hundreds of pounds I thought SOD THAT. The town planner said, although it was illegal to drive over the grass onto the block paving, I am well within my rights to dismount my vehicle and PUSH it over, without brreaking the law.....not that anyone takes any notice round here with that rule, as theres not much parking, so everyone digs the gardens up to make room!

Again, pushing is not the same as driving/riding.

[MisterTommyH]

the voice of reason!!!!!

Thats as maybe, but the question wasn't whether you'd get nicked for it. It was whether it was legal.



Again, pushing is not the same as driving/riding.

True, but then a parked vehicle is not the same as driving/riding and it IS illegal to park a SORN'd/uninsured/un-MOT'd vehicles on the public highway - including wide pavements and grassed areas on those pavement if they fall withing the highway curtilage.

So without pointing to specific laws, because I'm not a lawyer or a copper, if it's illegal to have a stationary vehicle in this condition on the highway, what about that vehicle being human propelled makes it legal?

If a copper wanted to be really pedantic they could stop you.... ask you for your details... you put the bike on the stand..... BAM the vehicle is parked on the highway without being 'road legal'.

Again, I'm not saying that it's likely you'd get stopped and if it was me I'd probably push it round the corner...... but to the question of is it legal? I seriously doubt it.

[Spank86]

and asking RyanH or anyone else who thinks they may know the answer, to substantiate that statement with fact.

I'm not saying it's right or wrong, I'm just asking for a bit of proof.
Ok, that makes sense, sorry for the mix up.

Pushing does NOT constitute driving.

However for clarification, that assumes the offence you'd be attempting to avoid was actually worded as driving. Many other offences worded differently such as being in charge of a motor vehicle could still apply.

[-Ralph-]

OK, lets turn the question around, and I realise it's a bit of a derail but don't think it so irrelevant to this conversation that it constitutes a new thread (this is actually a line of leading questioning that eventually I'm going to bring it back to tax/SORN), if a mod disagrees with me please feel free to move this into one.

My bike is fully legal, but my wife doesn't have a motorbike license.

Can she push it along the street?

[-Ralph-]

Ok, that makes sense, sorry for the mix up

No problem.

Pushing it constitutes driving

Pushing does NOT constitute driving

You say it doesn't, Ryanh says it does.

At the moment all we have is two peoples opinions on an internet forum.

Can you please back that statement up with some reasoning why you believe that to be the case, or with some fact?

[Spank86]

Good question.

I'd want a policeman or lawyers view on that because of the insurance, obviously as a non rider she wouldn't be covered on your policy to operate the vehicle but at the same time shes not riding, I guess it comes down to where she stands as being in control of the vehicle.

If she's walking shes a pedestrian thats for sure, I just dont know how the vehicle itself would be classed.

In a practical sense I've never heard of anyone arrested for it and people do it at crash sites and for other reasons all the time but that doesnt really answer the legal question.

[Sir Trev]

To put another twist into this (as if it was needed) if you were to have the bike trailered to a workshop/mate while sorn'd can you get it on the trailer while it is still on your property? Chances are you would have to wheel the bike onto the road to load it which then opens the incharge/wheeling/using within the highway boundaries questions again... I need to lie down after reading all this!

[dizzyblonde]

Of course she bl00dy can.....she ain't frinkin riding it, so therefore doesn't need to be insured to 'touch it'!!!!

[Spank86]

You say it doesn't, Ryanh says it does.

At the moment all we have is two peoples opinions on an internet forum.

Can you please back that statement up with some reasoning why you believe that to be the case, or with some fact?


Well I cant quote the case but as far as precedent goes a Juddge has ruled on bicycles that legally pushing the vehicle is the same as carrying it and you are a pedestrian and allowed to access pedestrian areas, that sets precedent for all vehicles when being pushed. Secondly the definition of driving/riding and pushing speak for themselves quite eloquently.

I rather suspect Ryanh (who may correct me on this) was being somewhat imprecise in his choice of words and simply meant you are still operating the vehicle and classed as in charge/control of it.


@sirtrev, Unless its going to an MOT testing station it has to remain off road.

[The Idle Biker]

who gives a **** a bit of minor rule bending, so what. Just push it if it's close or drive it if you think you can get away with it.

Or alternatively, clean the bike yourself.

[W4tto]

In England the police don't take you to court anyway, the CPS do, so it'd probably never get that far.

The CPS only make chargin decisions on certain offences. The majority of traffic is decided by the Police.
And as for 'driving/riding' I think there was some confusion. It's not driving technically however you ARE in control of the vehicle if you control its propulsion and/or direction. (ie two twelve year old TWOCers one pushing a car along the roa the other steering are BOTH in control of the car.
As for your Missus pushing a motorbike shhe'd be perfectly entitled to despite being in CONTROL of the vehicle as she's not specifically driving/riding it in these circumstances. If she then decided to jump on the seat and freewheel along the pavement the circa have changed in favour of her riding it.
Traffic law in this area is very subjective in line with common sense in my opinion.
however the law not states that for a vehicle to be on a highway or other public place (highway=verge to verge) (public place = a place where the public have implied access) then it must be insured.
I could go into the meg **** of it but hopefully this helps...
:)

[-Ralph-]

The CPS only make chargin decisions on certain offences. The majority of traffic is decided by the Police.

I know the CPS don't always look at what they are dealing with before the morning of the court date, but if you challenged a speeding ticket and took it to court, would the case against you not be presented before the court by a CPS prosecutor? Would the case not need to be reviewed by that prosecutor beforehand to decide whether or not there was at least a 50% chance of conviction and whether or not they wish to proceed with the case or drop it?

[dizzyblonde]

Look, my VRap is on SORN and I think is out of MOT. I drive but because the DVLA changed the rules on trailers, I can't take it to an MOT station on a trailer, coz my license says no.


How the hell does one think I'm going to get my bike legal......I'm going to teleport it to the MOT station, then I'm going to walk to the Post Office and get my tax disk....

How else do you think I'm going to get it road legal? I'm going to book it in for MOT.....RIDE it there, and then TAX it. So its bending the rule, and any copper who pulls me over isn't really going to give me a hard time if its booked in to be 'legalised'.

BUT...before then I'm going to PUSH it down the street, to the local fella to get a new chain and sprockets on it, coz it ain't got any petrol, he might have some he can put in it for me ;)

[MisterTommyH]

Of course she bl00dy can.....she ain't frinkin riding it, so therefore doesn't need to be insured to 'touch it'!!!!

But she isn't just touching it is she? She's taking an inherantly unstable object out of it's stable position (on the side stand) and taking control of it.

In this instance though I tend to think that there wouldn't be anything to charge with, but again I have nothing to back it up.

[-Ralph-]

How else do you think I'm going to get it road legal? I'm going to book it in for MOT.....RIDE it there, and then TAX it. So its bending the rule, and any copper who pulls me over isn't really going to give me a hard time if its booked in to be 'legalised'.

Not bending any rules there Dizz, the rules specifically allow you to ride to and from a pre-booked MOT.

[Spank86]

How else do you think I'm going to get it road legal? I'm going to book it in for MOT.....RIDE it there, and then TAX it. So its bending the rule, and any copper who pulls me over isn't really going to give me a hard time if its booked in to be 'legalised'.
Its not bending the rule at all, its specifically mentioned in the rule. Riding to an MOT station is the one time you can have a non MOT'd SORN vehicle on the road but you must ride directly there and it must be within a reasonable distance, a test station at lands end would nto fit the bill if you lived in john o'groats, but it doesnt have to be the exact closest one.

Worst comes to the worst and you have to explain that to a policeman you simply get them to ring the MOT station to check your appointment.

[dizzyblonde]

Not bending any rules there Dizz, the rules specifically allow you to ride to and from a pre-booked MOT.

But its SORN'd, so therefore not allowed :rolleyes:

Even if I was 'pushing' it round to a mates for a pre MOT clean......its still going to an MOT thats booked ;)

[Spank86]

But its SORN'd, so therefore not allowed :rolleyes:

http://www.direct.gov.uk/en/Motoring/OwningAVehicle/HowToTaxYourVehicle/DG_069671

Driving an untaxed vehicle to an MOT test

You can drive your vehicle to and from a pre-arranged test at an MOT test station as long as you have adequate insurance cover.
This also applies to vehicles being driven to and from a pre-arranged test at:

a Vehicle Inspection Check (VIC) test station
an approved weight testing station and reduced pollution test station

[dizzyblonde]

In case you haven't noticed, I am winding you up......I am well aware of the rules and regs of MOTs and TAX, I've been riding for 8 years and have had an awful lot of MOTs and SORN'd bikes in the last three to four years. ;)

I've got that many bikes my mot guy classes me under 'trade'!!

[Spank86]

You never know. Yesterday someone I've worked with for 7 years asked me how to do something he should have needed to do almost every day.

Compared to that, SORN vehicle stuff could easily be overlooked. :D

[-Ralph-]

The bike won't fail an MOT for being dirty anyway, why not MOT it first, then ride to get cleaned?

[gruntygiggles]

Surely the biggest issue here is that it is a motorised vehicle and would be on a public road without insurance. That can mean it gets taken away and hefty fines imposed as far as I know.

If it's dirty, clean it or get your friend to come clean it at yours.
If it needs to go to a garage for an mot...which it will need as you have declared sorn since you last taxed it...you will have to insure it and then, with a prebooked mot, you can legally ride it to the mot station.

Regards getting a bike/car to a garage for any work to be done...there are plenty of garages that offer a collection service. Do that, then any grey areas of crossing kerbs etc. Are the responsibility of the garage staff loading the vehicle!

I doubt you would get in trouble just pushing it around the corner...but as for legal...hell no!

[Owenski]

Another fine "fact v's opinion" thread brought to you by SV650.org in association with "sounds about right.com"

[-Ralph-]

Another fine "fact v's opinion" thread brought to you by SV650.org in association with "sounds about right.com"

:smt046

[Spank86]

Another fine "fact v's opinion" thread brought to you by SV650.org in association with "sounds about right.com"
All facts are opinions but not all opinions are facts. :p

[ryanh1418]

I think the question's been well and truly answered by now! In order to push a vehicle on a road you will need to be fully documented as far as insurance and tax etc goes. In all honesty even that probably isn't an issue in the real world - just technically. But definitely don't ride it as some are, hopefully tongue in cheek, suggesting.

It gets complicated when you talk about driving for the purposes of licence/disqualification issues and accidents but, as someone else has already said, should be a mix of the law and common sense. I can't find a specific case law relating to someone being stuck on for pushing a mcycle whilst disqualified /unlicenced suggesting it hasn't happened - it has for cars and just to make that shade of grey a bit more murky England and Scotland disagree!

I think the case law most relevant is r v macdonagh 1974. It relates to a disqual driver pushing a car on a road (having been instructed to move it by a PC!)
It opens with " The Road Traffic Acts do not define the word 'drive' and in its simplest meaning it refers to a person using the driver's controls for the purpose of directing the movement of the vehicle. It matters not that the vehicle is not moving under its own power, or driven by the force of gravity, or even that it is being pushed by other well-wishers. The essence of driving is the use of the driver's controls in order to direct the movement, however that movement is produced."

But Lord Judge whoever then went on to declare the defendant not guilty! His counterpart in Scotland disagreed and found his defendant guilty.

So make of that what you will.

To my mind that explains why this thread has reached three pages and will no doubt continue. But I'm leaving it there; I've got the weekend off, the wife's away and the pub's open!

[twowheels]

what about if you put it on a trolley and pushed it on that? hahaha

i do have a trolley big and strong enough for a bike!

[-Ralph-]

I think the case law most relevant is r v macdonagh 1974. It relates to a disqual driver pushing a car on a road (having been instructed to move it by a PC!)
It opens with " The Road Traffic Acts do not define the word 'drive' and in its simplest meaning it refers to a person using the driver's controls for the purpose of directing the movement of the vehicle. It matters not that the vehicle is not moving under its own power, or driven by the force of gravity, or even that it is being pushed by other well-wishers. The essence of driving is the use of the driver's controls in order to direct the movement, however that movement is produced."

But Lord Judge whoever then went on to declare the defendant not guilty! His counterpart in Scotland disagreed and found his defendant guilty.

So make of that what you will

Many Thanks :thumbsup:

[-Ralph-]

BTW - If he was instructed to move it by a PC, who reported him for the offence??

[monkey]

All facts are opinions but not all opinions are facts. :p

Eh?

[Spank86]

Eh?
I could have qualified that by saying all facts as we experience them.

They are filtered through our perceptions and as such are our single or group opinions on how reality is.

Everything starts with basic assumptions, we just try to make those assumptions as small as possible.

[-Ralph-]

I could have an opinion that Madeline McCann's parents know what happened to her, but that's not a proven fact.

That Levi Bellfield murdered Milly Dowler is accepted as a fact, but actually it's only the opinion of a judge and jury.

All facts are opinions but not all opinions are facts.

[monkey]

So this fact: the moon is smaller than the Earth is in fact someone's opinion?

No I don't get it.

Facts are facts.

Sorry to derail op.

[Spank86]

So this fact: the moon is smaller than the Earth is in fact someone's opinion?

Yes, it relies on your perception and way of looking at the universe, its just difficult to accept that because we only HAVE our perception.

Dont get me wrong, its very close to being objective, hard 100% known fact but nothing ever can be.

[-Ralph-]

o·pin·ion/əˈpinyən/
Noun:
1. A view or judgment formed about something, not necessarily based on fact or knowledge.
2. The beliefs or views of a large number or majority of people about a particular thing.

It is my view, my judgement, and my belief - and therefore my opinion - that the moon is smaller than the earth.

[dizzyblonde]

The bloke only wanted to know if hes safe to push his damn bike, not a wikifactfinding mission copied and pasted by patrick Moore playing a xylophone on a trip to Mars......which is bigger than the moon.....fact:rolleyes:

He should have looked on Google.

[monkey]

He he.

If he hasn't pushed it there yet I'll go and help him.

[W4tto]

I know the CPS don't always look at what they are dealing with before the morning of the court date, but if you challenged a speeding ticket and took it to court, would the case against you not be presented before the court by a CPS prosecutor? Would the case not need to be reviewed by that prosecutor beforehand to decide whether or not there was at least a 50% chance of conviction and whether or not they wish to proceed with the case or drop it?

Oh granted the CPS will present to the court but as you say this will be the first they hear of it. Especially if the police make the prosecution decision.
And 50% is way below what they need to go for a trial lol.
At the end of the day it'd take a pretty harsh police officer to knock someone off for pushing a bike to have something fixed. It's the bike version I being on tow...

[W4tto]

He he.

If he hasn't pushed it there yet I'll go and help him.

Cry my eyes out if his neighbours phoned the cops lol

[Milky Bar Kid]

Lol! I love the .org. PS- I can confirm that pushing a mehanically propelled vehicle on a road is classified TECHNICALLY as driving in Scotland.

But if ur goin to do it please do not take the plates off. That will defo make us stop and speak to you....

[gruntygiggles]

lol! I love the .org. Ps- i can confirm that pushing a mehanically propelled vehicle on a road is classified technically as driving in scotland.

But if ur goin to do it please do not take the plates off. That will defo make us stop and speak to you....

fact!!! ;-)

[Milky Bar Kid]

The bloke only wanted to know if hes safe to push his damn bike, not a wikifactfinding mission copied and pasted by patrick Moore playing a xylophone on a trip to Mars......which is bigger than the moon.....fact:rolleyes:

He should have looked on Google.

http://www.rathergood.com/moon_song

[dizzyblonde]

:smt005

Wtf ya random loon.....I've just nearly wet the bed laughing, and Peg said you should be shot!


That has to be the best post:.....fact :thumleft:

[widepants]

http://www.rathergood.com/moon_song
And we wonder why women were given the vote.;)

[Milky Bar Kid]

Well loads of folk were talking about the moon being close to us and other nonsense and I remembered this song and thought it was appropriate...plus I know all of the words.....

[dizzyblonde]

All the words? That's disturbing!!!!

[-Ralph-]

Nukking Futter! And they give you a uniform and a baton?? ;-)

[Milky Bar Kid]

It's why you all love me!!

[widepants]

delusional