View Full Version : Down shifting to decelerate?
Fallout
25-05-12, 04:15 PM
I always down shift when coming to a halt and do a lot of my deceleration with engine braking. Having just inspected my tyre and seen a lot more wear than I would expect, I'm wondering if this has contributed to it. Obviously with the SV engine braking, you can take a lot of stress off the front pads and pretty much eliminate the need to use the back brake when leisurely decelerating.
Is this right though? Is it correct to down shift and use engine braking or should I be doing it all with the brakes? I've heard mix advice from people. My main concern is longevity of the bike/tyres/chain/pads.
Kilted Ginger
25-05-12, 04:39 PM
Gears for going, brakes for slowing.
acting_strange
25-05-12, 04:46 PM
Gears for going, brakes for slowing.
Hate to say this but.....I will never agree with this statement....I was taught to use the gearbox (as well as the brakes)...It offers more control...
Blipping the throttle should help eleviate some of the harshness of engine braking. personally I use a bit of both to slow down but probably around 70/30 in favour of brakes if I had to guess (in normal braking).
Fallout
25-05-12, 04:52 PM
Do you guys reckon engine braking contributes to tyre wear? When you come off the clutch and the twin torque kicks in, it can slow you down pretty quick. I wonder if that can cause split second locks (or near to locks) when you come off the clutch, wearing the tyre quicker. Blipping the throttle would probably help in that case.
Your tyre is the only part of the bike in contact with the road so when you scrub off speed I'd have thought the the friction through the tyre is the same whether you use engine braking or brakes. Think its how quickly you scrub off your speed that will make a difference. Slow steady deceleration ought to result in less wear than sudden hard deceleration in regards to the tyre. Using a lot of engine braking may well however result in more wear to other parts eg chain & sprockets etc.
Just my opinion, maybe someone more knowledgeable will say different...
the smoother you ride the less you wear stuff out.
Blipping your throttle aswell as going down the box smoothen's the gear changes, doesn't stop any harshness. If anything it makes it worse because your upping the revs & lowering the gear.
I've always used engine braking, aswell as in the car. How I've been tought & I've never had a problem with either.
& Persoanlly I wouldn't say 'correct' or 'incorrect'. At the end of the day if your comming to a stop, your doing it right? If your tought 'gears are for going & brakes are from slowing' then thats the way you will ride, but doesn't mean that ways right or wrong either.
Hate to say this but.....I will never agree with this statement....I was taught to use the gearbox (as well as the brakes)...It offers more control...
Entitled to your own opinion of course.
But the brakes are designed to slow down the bike, they do it very effectively and the level of control is influenced by your skill with them, not a technical limitation.
A little engine braking assistance isnt going to do any harm, in fact it does actually help to steady the bike, but relying on it too much is dangerous and potentially damaging to your engine. Bear in mind that rev limiters have no influence on the engine speed when its driven by the wheel rather than the ignition system.
Using the front and rear brake together properly is difficult, but only because of lack of practice, its because most people do not use them both together.
2F45T4U
25-05-12, 05:20 PM
if you shift braking effort from the front to the rear, then obviously the rear tyre is doing more work and the for sure it will wear quicker.
Try shifting more of the brake balance to the front, dont change down so aggresively and roll into the corners.
i find the engine brake is so excessive of closed or part throttle that its smoother to hold the bike in a higher gear, brake normally (front and rear). Holding the engine at almost neutral torque on deceleration makes for a waaay smoother ride and theres plenty engine torque to accelerate out of the apex anyway.
if you rely too much on rear brake then the bike just wants to stand up straight when your trying to tip it in.
all the weight moves forward when you brake so the back lifts and the rear chatters and risks locking up. So stop trying go against physics and go with it. thats why your brakes are bigger on the front.
for another thing the load snatching from drive-brake moves the chain slack from bottom to top and changes the thrust faces on everything inside the engine.
Fallout
25-05-12, 05:23 PM
Your tyre is the only part of the bike in contact with the road so when you scrub off speed I'd have thought the the friction through the tyre is the same whether you use engine braking or brakes.
I'd agree with that, if done smoothly. But in the heat of riding quickly, that sudden bite of the clutch would probably be like a quick stamp on the back brake, rather than a slow press. At least, that's how it sometimes feels. Probably just a weakness in my riding. I feel like that sudden moment of bite when the clutch comes out might be harsher to tyres (and the drive chain) than smooth progressive braking.
Don't get me wrong. I smoothly let out the clutch most of the time, but I'm prone to errors when pleasure riding, and preoccupied with the approaching corner.
[QUOTE=AZZ3R;2717230] Blipping your throttle aswell as going down the box smoothen's the gear changes, doesn't stop any harshness. If anything it makes it worse because your upping the revs & lowering the gear.
QUOTE]
Not sure about that one. See this thread http://forums.sv650.org/showthread.php?t=159427&highlight=blip+throttle
Explains what blipping the throttle achieves ;)
I'd agree with that, if done smoothly. But in the heat of riding quickly, that sudden bite of the clutch would probably be like a quick stamp on the back brake, rather than a slow press. .
Just a riding style thing. If it bothers you then make a concious effort to change. If it doesn't then don't :)
pinpoint_uk
25-05-12, 06:10 PM
Entitled to your own opinion of course.
But the brakes are designed to slow down the bike, they do it very effectively and the level of control is influenced by your skill with them, not a technical limitation.
A little engine braking assistance isnt going to do any harm, in fact it does actually help to steady the bike, but relying on it too much is dangerous and potentially damaging to your engine. Bear in mind that rev limiters have no influence on the engine speed when its driven by the wheel rather than the ignition system.
Using the front and rear brake together properly is difficult, but only because of lack of practice, its because most people do not use them both together.
Hi everyone. Agree with above. If you need to brake you use the brakes, not down change and use engine braking. The two reasons are more wear and tear and second is if you aren't using the brakes then the rear brake light isn't illuminated.....
This is based on car driving (I don't have enough experience on a bike to comment fully) and I was taught this by driving instructor and advanced driving intructors.
However if you need a lower gear for corner or need to scrub off 5-10 mph when travelling 60+ then knocking down a gear would be fine. If coming to a stop brakes imo are a must.
Cheers
Rich
Sent from my GT-I9100 using Tapatalk 2
When you come off the clutch and the twin torque kicks in, it can slow you down pretty quick. I wonder if that can cause split second locks (or near to locks) when you come off the clutch, wearing the tyre quicker. Blipping the throttle would probably help in that case.
hhhmmm are you maybe referring to the back torque on the clutch then if so you are down shifting way too soon and not matching the revs.
let the revs drop first to an acceptable level (its a twin it will drop fast when you shut the go juice off) say 4-5k then blip throttle to 6-7k pull clutch in change down a gear while still at 6-7k then let clutch out. by the time you let the clutch out you will be doing 4-5k again but because you are now in a lower gear you will be going slower. next gear then reduce by 1k revs so on and so on till you come to a stop with the brakes. if it feels jerky when your doing this then your doing it wrong, well that is unless your ragging the titz out of the bike but doing this will just ware your consumables quicker.
smoothness is the name of the game. for instance cracking the throttle open out of corners will eat chains, sprockets and tyres, so instead roll the throttle on. be smooth......
missyburd
25-05-12, 06:44 PM
Ok I know I'm a girl and therefore probably don't ride as "hard" as you lads but humour me here :-P
I also blip the throttle on downshifting, I very rarely use the front brake unless making good progress in the twisties. I was taught that good use of engine braking indicates better forward planning in comparison to slamming on the brakes all the time. This thread is the first I quickly learned to blip, and apart from loving the sound it's the riding style I'm accustomed to. Having had to ride all winter and on various crappy road surfaces (eee it's grim oop norf :p) I've a tendency to avoid the front brake unless the roads are dry as bone as I'm paranoid about the surface and the front washing out (it's not a nice feeling!) And at least I have to change my brake pads less so swings and roundabouts :smt082
At the end of the day you ride how you ride and feel most comfortable with, it's not like engine braking is the only thing to contribute to excessive engine wear. You're not going to know when your engine finally gives up the ghost exactly what factors contributed so just ride it :D
Ok I know I'm a girl and therefore probably don't ride as "hard" as you lads but humour me here :-P
I also blip the throttle on downshifting, I very rarely use the front brake unless making good progress in the twisties. I was taught that good use of engine braking indicates better forward planning in comparison to slamming on the brakes all the time. This thread is the first I quickly learned to blip, and apart from loving the sound it's the riding style I'm accustomed to. Having had to ride all winter and on various crappy road surfaces (eee it's grim oop norf :p) I've a tendency to avoid the front brake unless the roads are dry as bone as I'm paranoid about the surface and the front washing out (it's not a nice feeling!) And at least I have to change my brake pads less so swings and roundabouts :smt082
At the end of the day you ride how you ride and feel most comfortable with, it's not like engine braking is the only thing to contribute to excessive engine wear. You're not going to know when your engine finally gives up the ghost exactly what factors contributed so just ride it :D
Like I said, nothing wrong with a little gentle engine braking helping you out, especially if you are gently slowing down. But good use of the brakes doesn't have to be "slamming the brakes on".
Getting rid of the fear to use your front brakes would be a useful thing, when the cr&p really hits the fan and you need to slow down good and proper (not always something that you'll be planning for) then that front brake might well save your bacon. It will perform far better than any other method of slowing the bike down in a hurry.
Plus, brakes are brakes, that's what they're there for.
+1
front brake is the primary way of slowing the bike down. As you say, ride however you're comfortable but don't negate it all together. Smooth application shouldn't result in catastrophy in most cases. Grabbing a handful might... :D
LankyIanB
25-05-12, 07:39 PM
If you're dropping the clutch on downshifts without matching engine speed to road speed, yes, you'll probably wear the tyre as you're forcing the tyre to go at a different speed to the road surface travelling under it.. With the SV it's quite easy to get the back to slide doing this....
If you want tyres to last longer, ride smoother, BUT having quickly read the other thread you started about tread depth, I don't think you state exactly which tyre you have. If you've got a sportier tyre, the middle bit won't last that many miles.... If you've worn out a sport touring tyre in a couple of thousand miles, then your riding style is probably a bit extreme....
yorkie_chris
25-05-12, 08:20 PM
Do you guys reckon engine braking contributes to tyre wear? When you come off the clutch and the twin torque kicks in, it can slow you down pretty quick. I wonder if that can cause split second locks (or near to locks) when you come off the clutch, wearing the tyre quicker. Blipping the throttle would probably help in that case.
It's meant to be for sliding the *rse end round into the corners isn't it? :smt082
Like anything in riding, it is a compromise... the purpose of a shift is to get into the right gear for "whatever", do you do it the "fastest" way and pagger down 5 gears at once while braking at absolute maximum rate? Do you blip and shift so that the tyre is "loose" all the way in to the corner?
If you are smooth (this is KEY!) then downshifting to keep the revs around 6k will probably not cause massive tyre wear. Using 9k engine braking all the time would probably see a difference.
However if you don't know how to change gear properly and get a lurch when you let the clutch out, then this will tear tyres...
missyburd
25-05-12, 08:21 PM
Getting rid of the fear to use your front brakes would be a useful thing, when the cr&p really hits the fan and you need to slow down good and proper (not always something that you'll be planning for) then that front brake might well save your bacon. It will perform far better than any other method of slowing the bike down in a hurry.
I don't have a fear of using the front brake, I'll use it if I have to, I just prefer not to. Obviously it would be stupid to attempt an emergency stop with engine braking, if I have to stop I have no problem using it, as you say, that's what it's there for.
As for grabbing a fistful, I've done that once and never again since, smoothness is the name of the game to the point where you can brake gently and comfortably round corners if necessary.
missyburd
25-05-12, 08:32 PM
Using 9k engine braking all the time would probably see a difference.
No danger of me doing that then, my stupid hands can't cope with the vibrations at those revs so smooth is best for me :)
dizzyblonde
25-05-12, 08:41 PM
I use the engine rather a lot for slowing down, I use the brakes when necessary.
Last month I rode from Halifax to Kirkby Lonsdale in drastic fog, I thought I'd used the brakes a little more than I usually do, as it was adverse weather etc
I got there and BluePete said..... 'jeez girl, did you actually brake at all coming here?'
My front discs were as rusty as I left them at home. EBCs do that overnight, but the bike hadn't moved for months and it was meant to be a shakedown run!
They've been out since, and they are only just clearing
I don't use my brakes unless I really need them, either that or they are used very lightly :)
hardhat_harry
25-05-12, 09:02 PM
Blipping the throttle makes it so the rear wheel matches the engine speed so the rear doesnt skip (sort of like a slipper clutch), you can also create the desired affect by having your idling speed at about 2000 revs.
These were the tips I got when setting up the SV for track riding by Mike Edwards who helped invent the minitwin series
Teejayexc
25-05-12, 09:03 PM
As for grabbing a fistful, I've done that once and never again since.....
Aw c'mon, practise makes perfect. :makelurve:
-Ralph-
25-05-12, 09:13 PM
Yes, you will wear the rear tyre faster using a lot of engine braking, than you will if slowing with the brakes. Slowing with engine braking is not a constant braking force, it's on/off/on/off as your pistons go through their stroke, transmitted through the crank, gearbox and chain, to provide a braking force at the back wheel. Pads on discs are a constant braking force.
dizzyblonde
25-05-12, 09:21 PM
Yes, you will wear the rear tyre faster using a lot of engine braking, than you will if slowing with the brakes. .
Never get to the end of a tyre to find out....always get a bloody nail or screw in it way before the treads run in!:smt093
I don't have a fear of using the front brake, I'll use it if I have to, I just prefer not to. Obviously it would be stupid to attempt an emergency stop with engine braking, if I have to stop I have no problem using it, as you say, that's what it's there for.
As for grabbing a fistful, I've done that once and never again since, smoothness is the name of the game to the point where you can brake gently and comfortably round corners if necessary.
It sounds like a fear to me, not preferring to use the bikes most effective braking feature. Either way, I think worth considering that when you do need to react urgently, you'll will not get time to think, it will be instinctive. By avoiding using the front during normal riding, your instinct will likely not be to use the front.
I'm not trying to persuade you one way or another, you can make your own mind up, but the front brake is your most precious friend when riding a bike. You need your brain to apply it in a split second, not slamming on, but forcefully and under control. Its pretty impressive just how hard you are able to brake with the front with a bit of practice.
Fallout
25-05-12, 09:52 PM
Thanks for everyone's thought and advice. I'm kind of the opposite to Missyburd. I have a tiny slight phobia of the back brake from locking it up when I was a novice, and do the majority of my braking on the front only. I use the back brake, but haven't really learnt the point at which it locks, so I find a combination of mostly front braking, a gentle amount of rear braking (hardly any) and engine braking feels right at the moment.
I think I'm going to work on that. I'll try and apply more rear brake and get to know the locking point (before I change this tyre!), then try and learn to use it in a reasonable range after that. I'll also have a go at the old blipping. I do that on occasion more for the noise than anything, but need to practice it a bit to make it smooth.
Also, yes, I did get a sport tyre. I didn't know they'd wear quicker on the middle. I'll get a touring type next I think. I'm not riding with a vengeance everywhere, so the outside doesnt get enough wear to warrant a sport tyre.
hhmm must just be me that uses both brakes and engine braking but then again i tend to slightly do what people call 'trail braking' when i'm having fun but not to the extreme of keeping them on till the apex. i usually let go just after i tip in. weather it's right or wrong i don't know but heyho. when i'm not having fun and just pootling about i tend to just roll in with a steady throttle.
pinpoint_uk
25-05-12, 10:08 PM
Originally Posted by missyburd (http://forums.sv650.org/showthread.php?p=2717304)<br />
I don't have a fear of using the front brake, I'll use it if I have to, I just prefer not to. Obviously it would be stupid to attempt an emergency stop with engine braking, if I have to stop I have no problem using it, as you say, that's what it's there for.<br />
<br />
As for grabbing a fistful, I've done that once and never again since, smoothness is the name of the game to the point where you can brake gently and comfortably round corners if necessary.<br />
<br />
By avoiding using the front during normal riding, your instinct will likely not be to use the front.<br />
I had this trouble in my Mod 1. On my emergency stop I locked the back brake even though I was saying don't use it at all. When I analysed why with my instructor I realised I was not using the front brake at all in normal riding and in the test I instictively went with what I was doing on the road. After training myself to use the front brake for most slowing down I passed the next one easy enough. Brains are very strange things :)
Rich
Sent from my GT-I9100 using Tapatalk 2
MisterTommyH
25-05-12, 10:11 PM
hhmm must just be me that uses both brakes and engine braking
Nup, I was taught to combine the two.
Fallout
25-05-12, 10:18 PM
I use front, back and engine braking too, I just think I need to improve the balance. More rear brake, smoother engine braking via a blip.
no less rear.... most of your braking should be on the front. if you lock the rear up then you have lost drive.
Fallout
25-05-12, 10:23 PM
But I might as well not be using it at all. I rest my foot on it and that's about it. I don't even use it for low speed control. Someone once told me 20%-80% back/front bias. I would say I do about 5% on the back.
yes back brake for very slow control (were talking walking pace) i roughly use 70front/30rear i use my brakes according to what i'm doing as it's no hard and fast rule its more of a feel.
Owenski
25-05-12, 10:48 PM
That percentage relates to braking force and application and generally derives from car driving as that's what happens when you hit the brakes in a car.
It's not a wrong theory but factor in that your SV has 2 front discs of greater diameter then the rear, 2 pots on either caliper and a much more powerful master cylinder than the back. All this means you can turn very little force applied by your fingers into a huge one at the disc. It's all too easy to lock up a rear braking too hard but don't think because your not pulling the lever to the bar that your not braking hard with the front too.
If in doubt stand up, lean forward and try to get a good look at your headlight then hit the front brake like normal, you'll soon realise just how much braking power you have down there.
missyburd
25-05-12, 11:07 PM
Aw c'mon, practise makes perfect. :makelurve:
lol, knew someone wouldn't be able to resist biting :-P
It sounds like a fear to me, not preferring to use the bikes most effective braking feature. Either way, I think worth considering that when you do need to react urgently, you'll will not get time to think, it will be instinctive. By avoiding using the front during normal riding, your instinct will likely not be to use the front.
I'm not trying to persuade you one way or another, you can make your own mind up, but the front brake is your most precious friend when riding a bike. You need your brain to apply it in a split second, not slamming on, but forcefully and under control. Its pretty impressive just how hard you are able to brake with the front with a bit of practice. .
Maybe I've worded it wrong and consequently you've got the wrong end of the stick. Let's get one thing straight, I do not, or have ever had, a fear of braking! I merely stated that in general I use engine braking far more than I do the front brake for scrubbing off speed, depending on the situation.
If I had a so called fear of braking then I'd never hit more than 40mph anywhere lol and I certainly wouldn't approach any junctions in case someone would dare to pull out on me! :rolleyes: Or your definition of a "fear" is very different to mine ;) I've done enough miles in crap conditions to figure out how the brakes work and what I and the bike is capable of. It's just by preference over time that I use engine braking :smt102
I can't say I was aware it resulted in excessive wear on the tyres which why this makes for an interesting thread. As for excessive engine wear, well if they're not meant to wear then what's the point of even using the bleddy things :D
hhmm must just be me that uses both brakes and engine braking but then again i tend to slightly do what people call 'trail braking' when i'm having fun but not to the extreme of keeping them on till the apex. i usually let go just after i tip in ...
That's not trail braking Mr B, just good braking. Trail braking is still braking after tip in but proportionate to lean angle.
And I also front/rear brake. For what its worth, & as this thread's obviously stoked some interesting opinions, after being on track I'm naturally more inclined to use the front. However on road in 80% of situations its SAFE to use both together effectively (regardless of what people's calculations are of the f/r ratio etc).
For spirited road riding its going to be mainly front but both together if the bike is stable. If you're getting back wheel lift on road then you're pushing it a bit for the road.
Blipping/engine braking. Some do, some don't etc etc. Anyway, this bike's characteristic is strong engine braking, so why not use it? Just best to know how to use is most effectively. The idea that only brakes are for slowing is unrealistic I find. Use all together for best results. As others have said, smoothness is the key but it is possible to use everything - front & back brakes, engine breaking, blipping the throttle, sticking your leg out ... :tongue: - and still be both fast and smooth.
yorkie_chris
26-05-12, 08:58 AM
The percentage thing is bollox.
70% of what? Force on controls? System pressure? Torque?
And just to put it in perspective when you're braking hard even downshifting smoothly (to give you a useable rpm to drive out of corner like 7-8k), is enough to get the back tyre loose.
Don't worry about percentages and stuff just learn to use front brakes and use them well.
Don't worry about percentages and stuff just learn to use front brakes and use them well.
+1
...this is very good advice.
Maybe I've worded it wrong and consequently you've got the wrong end of the stick. Let's get one thing straight, I do not, or have ever had, a fear of braking! I merely stated that in general I use engine braking far more than I do the front brake for scrubbing off speed, depending on the situation.
Yeah, me getting the wrong end of the stick, that's probably it.
Call it a fear, call it an aversion, call it a straight preference, doesnt really matter. Engines are crap at slowing down motorcycles in comparison to a front brake.
Allowing the bike to slow down (due to its engine braking, air resistance etc) and not requiring the brakes to do so is fine up to a point.
yorkie_chris
26-05-12, 10:46 AM
She is reliably getting near 65mpg, I am not going to tell her she is doing it wrong :)
Fallout
26-05-12, 12:21 PM
She is reliably getting near 65mpg, I am not going to tell her she is doing it wrong :)
Though pulling the clutch in so the engine drops to idle and braking all the way would improve that further ... not that I'd recommend that as a good riding technique. :cool:
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