View Full Version : Handling problem.
the bike has bee feeling weird for a few weeks now and its starting to pizz me off.
Symptoms:
when dropping into a corner the whole bike has a sensation of wanting to slide and goes very light. this is coupled with the front end weaving till i start to exhilarate out of the corner. the bike is also tracking into ruts and poor surfaces. going anywhere near wet tar like the joints in the road cause the bike to slide about something chronic.
i have not done anything to the bike of significance apart from take the play out the swingarm and add more sag to the front end but i done this ages ago and all was fine.
rictus01
21-06-12, 10:47 PM
have you checked you head bearings /play/worn/ need re-packing ?
head bearings are tapered roller and were greased up last year when i put the bike on the road. have checked them recently and all is fine, nice and smooth with no play.
this one has me stumped :-(
all linkages have been greased and the swingarm is free moving.
the only time i have had a problem like this before was on the last bike and was the lower shock bolt rubbing on the dogbone but i have checked that and this time its not that.
tyres possibly? is it dependant on weather/temperatures or all the time?
rictus01
21-06-12, 11:07 PM
if as you mention the bike firms up under acceleration, that would suggest some sort of longditudinal play of some sort, start from the front and work back systematically.
Jayneflakes
21-06-12, 11:26 PM
Wifey and I cannot offer much, but have you checked your tyre pressures? Or do you have a wheel bearing failing? Finally, have you had any of the bikes bits out of their place recently and one of the fixings has loosened again?
I found that my bike felt awful for a while and this was because the front tyre had worn on one side. Since replacing both tyres, the bike feels lovely again.
Sorry I can't offer more insight.
tyres possibly? is it dependant on weather/temperatures or all the time?
all the time and gets pretty scary in the wet
if as you mention the bike firms up under acceleration, that would suggest some sort of longditudinal play of some sort, start from the front and work back systematically.
i will do. could it possibly be lack of play as there is absolutely no side to side play in the swingarm that is normally associated with the pointy SV. it moves up and down silky smooth as does the linkages.
Wifey and I cannot offer much, but have you checked your tyre pressures? Or do you have a wheel bearing failing? Finally, have you had any of the bikes bits out of their place recently and one of the fixings has loosened again?
I found that my bike felt awful for a while and this was because the front tyre had worn on one side. Since replacing both tyres, the bike feels lovely again.
Sorry I can't offer more insight.
any suggestions are welcome and i'm open to all.
i'm pretty anal about maintenance. tyre pressures spot on, bearings spot on., recent new front tyre (400 miles), rear about 2/3 worn but not squared. last front did have some cupping but i'm putting that down to my riding. i'll go over all the bolts on the front wheel to make sure i haven't missed any.
Assuming all bearings are moving smoothly, tyres are good, and the problem straightens out when you start loading the rear, I'd ask:
Front fork oil, how old is it? Mine was a little wayward with the older oil, new stuff seems to have helped.
Jambo
i was thinking this but its just over 10,000 and was silkoline rsf so it should still be good till the winter tear down.
when i put the bike on the road in April last year it was fitted with a storm-st on the rear and a storm-ultra on the front. i replaced the rear at 4000 for a storm-ultra and everything was fine. i stripped the swingarm and linkages off took the play out the swingarm and greased everything up at about 6000 and all was fine. front tyre started cupping at around 8000 and this is when the problems started. i replaced the front at 10,000 for another storm-ultra and the problem is still present. the bike is now just over 10,400 miles. the only thing i can think is that i have put too much sag in the front but the front is only using 2/3 of its travel.
As a thought. Could the rear have worn odd given the slop (you have now removed) in the rear swing arm.?
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possibly but the tyre looks absolutely fine.
Kilted Ginger
22-06-12, 02:29 PM
mine does that lance, i reckon its fork oil and poss rear shock. to be fair mine is under more strain tha yours.
Owenski
22-06-12, 02:53 PM
My bet was tyre wear but you've ruled that out, when it goes does it feel like front wheel wash or rear wheel slip?
i know standard pointy's suffer from these symptoms but i have a super dooper rear shock and gsxr front end. the bike was flawless until recent and was like someone was throwing glue in front of me everywhere i went. doubt that the fluids in the shock and forks would be duff in 10,000 but you never know.
only possible cause i can think and its a long shot is that the travel on the forks is sitting at a point where the progressive and linear parts of the spring are merging but as far as i'm aware the springs in gsxr forks are linear so that would rule that out.
My bet was tyre wear but you've ruled that out, when it goes does it feel like front wheel wash or rear wheel slip?
both, its like the bike is rising. the only way i can describe it is like going from nice sticky tyres to riding on marbles where before the grip was linear at all lean angles and only gave me problems when i was off the edge and at very very silly lean.
Owenski
22-06-12, 03:50 PM
Is it something really 'over-look-able' such as a break line been nipped under load causing the bike to sit up a bit?
right just been out and gone over the whole bike. and guess what... there is slight vertical/horizontal play in the swingarm but no more and i would say a little less that a standard pointy. feck knows how that's happened but i have torqued everything up again and now there is no horizontal but a tiny tiny bit vertical so i'm guessing that one of the linkage bearings are goosed.
if it stays dry i might go and test it later if i get time.
Mark 'that would suggest some sort of longditudinal play of some sort' might just have been spot on.
Or a shock bush / mount?
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muzikill
22-06-12, 04:08 PM
right just been out and gone over the whole bike. and guess what... there is slight vertical/horizontal play in the swingarm but no more and i would say a little less that a standard pointy. feck knows how that's happened but i have torqued everything up again and now there is no horizontal but a tiny tiny bit vertical so i'm guessing that one of the linkage bearings are goosed.
if it stays dry i might go and test it later if i get time.
Mark 'that would suggest some sort of longditudinal play of some sort' might just have been spot on.
Could the factory suzuki play on the swingarm you machined out caused a strain on the linkage by removing the 'flex'?
Or a shock bush / mount?
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possible
Could the factory suzuki play on the swingarm you machined out caused a strain on the linkage by removing the 'flex'?
doubt it as if there is no movement and they are well greased then there is very little play so bearing should last longer due to not rattling. i think suzuki added horizontal play to the linkages to match the swingarm moving from side to side but i'm having a guess here and without talking to the designer then no one will know why they even decided to add play in the first place.
Mark i owe you a pint m8.
i would never have checked the swingarm as i done the work not that long ago. only thing i can think of is it's pushed some grease out whilst settling in as i stuffed a fair old amount in there.
i would say it's 90% better and i'll put the rest down to the rear tyre being a bit worn and the edges of the front still shiny but with just a quick blast round town i have already worn a fair more off the front chicken strips. it's no longer tracking in ruts but tar joints are still slippy, uneven surfaces are now not a problem. i havent had a chance for a high speed test but i can now flick the bike about again without fear of it stepping out or that ooohhh shizz feeling.
bibs is a happy bunny :-)
thanks to all for the suggestions and everyone has been a great help
just digging this up again.
i think i have found the culprit. the forward most bearing on the leaver that connects to the frame is causing vertical movement in the swingarm so i stripped the sucker out and checked the bearings for play and there was none so i greased everything up again and stuck it back together with no joy but i think i now know why. seems that you cant tighten the bush against the sides of the fork enough so the inner of the bush is rattling on the bolt which is causing the vertical movement on the swingarm. now if my assumption is correct this might be what is causing the vague feeling at the back end as the wheel is moving up and down slightly without the aid of the suspension.
now how the feck to i go about sorting it.
My bog standard pointy would feel horrible to you then Lance!
yes they do indeed feel horrible to me. don't get me wrong the bike is leagues ahead of a standard pointy its just i know there is something up and i cant get to the bottom of it. it's not me as i have had someone else have a go and he says the same thing. normal riding is fine but when you start to give it beans it shows up.
BlackFlag94
14-07-12, 10:27 AM
I may be of now help at all but there's a couple of questions for you...
How many miles have you done since adjusting the forks and shock? And has the front or rear tyre worn differently since adjustments?
I'm asking this because I feel as though when I tip my bike into a corner the front has grip but there's a delay before the rear grips, then from apex-exit (this bit only happens when i'm pushing it a bit) the front tyre is sliding just a little bit and I feel the bike pushing away from me. This is due to slightly wrong pressures (experimenting until I find the right pressures for me) and also having standard suspension components... The front is practically bottomed out going round the bends and you say you softened the preload? Maybe stiffer is the way to go?
As for the bearings in the linkage I can offer no help with that other than checking if the bearing you have is actually correct seeing as you changed the shock?!
Do a torque check on all the engine mounting bolts. My pointy went really vague and I couldn’t pin it on anything. I was about to replace the half worn tyres when I found the round castle nut behind the gear lever was fully loose and only being held on the thread by an adjacent loom. Tightened it back up and handling resolved.
HTH
well good news.
i fettled with the suspension 1 click + on the rear nitron sport, 2 rings of preload and 1/8 turn on the rebound on front forks and bang solid as a rock with just a hint of running wide on exit so i'll dial out 1/2 ring of preload and see how it is. it feels like a new tyre but the one on is near goosed. only downside is that i feel the bumps a bit more. riding in rain and wet roads is only slightly different from dry where before it was scary.
Hi,
I have exactly the same feeling on my K3 SV1000. I put it down to a worn dual compound front. I've changed it but it's not stopped raining since to see how much difference it made. However a quick read through your post went from "I have the same problem as Mark" to "eye of toad wing of bat" territory.
I've got a standard set-up; what do you recon actually made the most difference, twiddling the rear or sprinkling talent over the bearings?
When you say +1click on the rear, 1 click of what, compression or rebound.
I'm rapidly losing confidence in my bike as the whole vagueness is a right nasty thing to deal with.
every bike is different so what works for one will not work for another.
anyway 1 click on the Nitron Sport adjuster = 1 click on the compression and 1 click on the rebound at the same time.
doing the bearings helped but not half as much as dialling in the suspension. the ride is a bit firmer but the bike now sticks to the road like glue just like it used to and the transition problem seems to have gone so by my reckoning the suspension needs a service. i'm due a new rear tyre as the one i have is a bit squared off and it will be interesting to see how that goes but at the moment the bike tips in lovely, keeps a decent line and almost all the headshake is gone.
And that involved no changes to the front at all?
I'm looking to get my front forks serviced anyway as one of the oil seals is delaminating so will get fresh oil etc while they are off.
Would be great if a front service plus a click or two on the rear would sort it as getting the rear serviced is a lot more expensive than the fronts. I've never taken either off before but the front looks less likely to get me in trouble than the rear.
Do you know if any of the "mail order" suspension refurb folks on ebay are any good? Lot cheaper than my local(ish) race suspension guy but then do I spend a bit more or waste a little less?
i added 2 rings of preload and 1/8 turn on the rebound to the front.
if you have the tools and the space forks are easy to service. just remember to clean the shim stack with brake cleaner or likes when your there.
i would however get a specialist to do your rear shock.
you will require a spring tool for cartridge forks which are about £40-60.
yorkie_chris
16-07-12, 12:54 PM
i will do. could it possibly be lack of play
Not this. There should be none.
i was thinking this but its just over 10,000 and was silkoline rsf so it should still be good till the winter tear down.
Aye mine generally feels squishy in rebound after 15k or so, and this is on RWUs that are harder on the oil.
i think i have found the culprit. the forward most bearing on the leaver that connects to the frame is causing vertical movement in the swingarm so i stripped the sucker out and checked the bearings for play and there was none so i greased everything up again and stuck it back together with no joy but i think i now know why. seems that you cant tighten the bush against the sides of the fork enough so the inner of the bush is rattling on the bolt which is causing the vertical movement on the swingarm. now if my assumption is correct this might be what is causing the vague feeling at the back end as the wheel is moving up and down slightly without the aid of the suspension.
now how the feck to i go about sorting it.
Thicker shim washers maybe. I'd think carefully about this though, those bearings aren't meant for any axial load (side to side wrt the whole bike), if there is radial play in those linkage bearings then the bearings need replacing.
However, you have a long leverage from the wheel to the bearing there. I reckon a very slight play is normal and not noticed while riding.
yorkie_chris
16-07-12, 12:56 PM
I'm rapidly losing confidence in my bike as the whole vagueness is a right nasty thing to deal with.
Rebound and springing is the main cause of that, IME. The stock springs aren't the firmest and the rebound is the first casualty as the oil wears.
yorkie_chris
16-07-12, 01:02 PM
I'm not keen on those combined damping adjusters. I don't think they work anything like as well as a proper split damping system with a fixed compression bleed. I built a penske 8900E and rode it both ways and stuck to that.
I'm rapidly losing confidence in my bike as the whole vagueness is a right nasty thing to deal with.
Rebound and springing is the main cause of that, IME. The stock springs aren't the firmest and the rebound is the first casualty as the oil wears.
cheers yorkie.
was thinking a cppl shims might sort it out so worth a try. the whole leaver assembly moves from side to side on the pointys and was thinking of making up shims to take the large majority of it out i measured it the other day and as an average it seem to be 1.2mm from side to side. there is no vertical movement in any other bearings apart from the one that connects to the frame and even then its not the bearing its the inside of the bush and bolt facings that have play. i could have stretched the bolt which might explain the difference but i doubt it and i personally think its suzuki's tolerance's at work again. at the rear wheel i would say i can feel a vertical movement of about 1mm (very slight click).
since fettling the suspension my problems have all but disappeared and would say it's 98% there. someone that rides a standard pointy would be delighted with it.
would love a fully adjustable shock but at the time i could just afford the sport and to be honest its the only time i have needed to adjust it so probably due a service. might look into getting it upgraded when its in for a service.
BlackFlag94
16-07-12, 02:34 PM
since fettling the suspension my problems have all but disappeared and would say it's 98% there. someone that rides a standard pointy would be delighted with it.
I have a standard pointy... just taken delivery of Hagon Progressive Springs and getting them fitted tomorow when it's in for its major service... I HATE how my bike handles, get close to knee down and the bike feels like its in a slide, front end washes away etc.. what have you done to your bike to get it where it is now?
ermmm. take one SV650s and rip front end and rear shock off and fit GSXR front and Nitron shock. still not happy so i took the play out of the swingarm. so i now have the handling of a SS but the sweet sweet engine of the SV :-)
http://forums.sv650.org/showpost.php?p=2716680&postcount=869
rictus01
16-07-12, 03:37 PM
so i now have the handling of a SS but the sweet sweet engine of the SV :-)
interesting statment, i've been fortunate enough to ride a great many "modified" sv's over the years, most feel "different" (whether that's better or not is debateable); to a mildly fettled sv (oil & springs) but very few get near the rigidity of a SS without frame bracing, or have you done something there to?
to me its stiff enough but that stiffening brace in the middle that keeps popping up when i get exited must add even more rigidity :-)
your more than welcome to have a go of the SV next time we meet Mark and decide for yourself i'll even bring a higher seat :-)
rictus01
16-07-12, 04:04 PM
Ho I've no doubt you've changed it, and if it suits you, all well and good, but the handling of a bike designed from the ground up as a complete package for a purpose (such as a SS) is far removed from something designed with a different goal in mind (like the SV), you can add bits/ change bits, but at the end of the day it'll be a compromise, I ridden one SV that was build to be a "SS beater" it wasn't but close, the frame was beefed up and a braced swingarm used as well as Ohlins forks and a WP shock, loads of money spent on it, it had two major flaws to my mind, the first is it had lost that friendly flexible feel SV's come with (if you didn't know you wouldn't be able to tell it was SV based by feel), the second was you could have got much the same results handling why, starting from another frame, just personal point of view you understand, for example I owned a 748 sps for a season, it was tight/sharp and scary, but that was the point of it, it wasn't an SV nor tried to be, but my road going SV served me longer and was as much fun (with little more than Srad shock/ springs & oil change), of the two bikes I'd probably choose the SV if I were to have either again, it's the old saying " if I wanted to get there, I wouldn't have started from here".
Cheers Mark.
good point. but then you could say its better than some out there. courses for horses and all that. the older ducati 600/750/900 are supposed to be SS but they nothing like the new generation of SS which i will agree are far superior to my bike in the right hands.
so i'll retract my statement and say 'its closer to a SS than a standard SV handling/braking wise' but still gives me a hardon due to the vibes :-)
its fast, its fun and feels good under my bum.
rictus01
16-07-12, 04:23 PM
:smt082 fair enough, athough fitting an SV lump in a SS chassis, now there's a different can of worms......
BlackFlag94
16-07-12, 04:46 PM
ermmm. take one SV650s and rip front end and rear shock off and fit GSXR front and Nitron shock. still not happy so i took the play out of the swingarm. so i now have the handling of a SS but the sweet sweet engine of the SV :-)
http://forums.sv650.org/showpost.php?p=2716680&postcount=869
Fair enough... I wanna do a fork swap but the amount its gonna cost me isn't worth it when I'm gonna change my bike next year anyway. If for whatever reason I don't change bikes then I will look into it. I saw a RSV fork swap before and that looks mint !
What wheel do you have on the front and are the brake calipers and discs off the GSXR?
Do you have the 2 or 3 way nitron shock? Both over £600 but the 3 way isn't much more than the 2... is it worth it?
basically. gsxr 600/750 k4-5 front end, gsxr k6-9 callipers, gsxr 1000 (320mm) discs, gilles variobars with 100mm risers. shock is nitron sport with one adjuster that does both rebound and compression at same time and is good enough.
if i were to do it again i would more than likely just drop a set of cartage internals in the standard forks and a nitron sport shock all of which would set you back about £500 with the shock being the biggest part of that.
Anyone done up SV1000 K3 suspension? It starts off with better kit than the 650 so interested to know who changed what and if it's worth it or just service the original kit.
never had the pleasure. you could go down the route of new valves and shims kit with a better rear shock from say a GSXR or ZZR. getting suspension fettled to suit you and your weight would be the best money spent.
yorkie_chris
17-07-12, 07:54 AM
I ridden one SV that was build to be a "SS beater" it wasn't but close, the frame was beefed up and a braced swingarm used as well as Ohlins forks and a WP shock, loads of money spent on it, it had two major flaws to my mind, the first is it had lost that friendly flexible feel SV's come with
They don't need the frame bracing unless he'd done something absolutely insane to the engine. See them in the states running hand grenade motors making 95+hp with standard frame.
If you gave less frame flex then you'd make it worse, IMO.
Better damping and suitable springs is absolutely no contest.
Whether you or I could feel any difference in flexibility in the forks, I doubt it.
Anyone done up SV1000 K3 suspension? It starts off with better kit than the 650 so interested to know who changed what and if it's worth it or just service the original kit.
I don't like those forks, I have done a set up but ended up turning them into Kowas. If I was doing it and wanted a really nice set up I'd just put some late GSXR bits on. But still a revalve and a bit of port fettling will improve things, IMO.
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