Breaking in a new Engine - Mototune method

[Owenski]

We're speaking about a zero miles right out of the show room engine here and what Im really asking is has anyone: Heard of, Used, Recommended this mototune method on their bikes in the past?

http://www.mototuneusa.com/break_in_secrets.htm

[Roberrrrt]

You got it then?

[Messie]

I'm using the Sid Squid method. Infinitely cheaper ;)

[littleoldman2]

I'm using the Sid Squid method. Infinitely cheaper ;)
That is ?.

[Owenski]

You got it then?
No not yet, just curious. Its been covered on the drz forum a few times, always the same result. The track boys swear by it but the old heads say stick to the manual.. none of whom have ever used the mototune method.

I'm using the Sid Squid method. Infinitely cheaper ;)
Is this a genuine method or am I missing some insider joke :( :confused:

[embee]

Discussed at length previously, try a search.

No break-in procedure in the engine industry (I mean design/develop/manufacture industry, not aftermarket builders) even vaguely resembles the Mototune method.

It is always a process of gradually increasing revs and load with time, cycling between low/moderate revs and low/moderate load, gradually increasing the limits as time progresses.

On a test bed a typical petrol engine break-in for development purposes would be around 10hrs after which the surfaces would be considered to have reached a satisfactory state of "compatibility" and it would take anything you wanted to throw at it. Because of variable conditions and difficulty in achieving the higher speed/load combinations on a public road, the test bed 10hrs would equate to something more like 500mls typically.

The critical components are the piston rings and bores, and sliding speed is the primary consideration, more important than load. It is important to get to higher speeds and loads towards the end of the process, don't "baby" it for too long.

Manufacturers do carry out sign-off tests where brand new engines are subjected to full load tests from cold ("scuff tests") to ensure that they will survive, but it's not a recommended practice if you want your engine to perform well over its lifetime.

Oil consumption is likely to be highly influenced by the break-in procedure used.

......but then what would engine/component manufacturers know about it? ;)

[Messie]

Simple, be gentle but don't pussy foot around. Change the revs frequently, use all the gears, don't labour the engine and don't go too fast for a while.

Even a numpty like me can follow that (unless I've missed something critical)

[Owenski]

Discussed at length previously, try a search.

No break-in procedure in the engine industry (I mean design/develop/manufacture industry, not aftermarket builders) even vaguely resembles the Mototune method.

It is always a process of gradually increasing revs and load with time, cycling between low/moderate revs and low/moderate load, gradually increasing the limits as time progresses.

On a test bed a typical petrol engine break-in for development purposes would be around 10hrs after which the surfaces would be considered to have reached a satisfactory state of "compatibility" and it would take anything you wanted to throw at it. Because of variable conditions and difficulty in achieving the higher speed/load combinations on a public road, the test bed 10hrs would equate to something more like 500mls typically.

The critical components are the piston rings and bores, and sliding speed is the primary consideration, more important than load. It is important to get to higher speeds and loads towards the end of the process, don't "baby" it for too long.

Manufacturers do carry out sign-off tests where brand new engines are subjected to full load tests from cold ("scuff tests") to ensure that they will survive, but it's not a recommended practice if you want your engine to perform well over its lifetime.

Oil consumption is likely to be highly influenced by the break-in procedure used.

......but then what would engine/component manufacturers know about it? ;)


I did the search showed up nothing, now shows up just this thread.

http://forums.sv650.org/attachment.php?attachmentid=11154&stc=1&d=1343306091

I appreciate the above knowlage and you obviously know your stuff, but it doesn't really answer my question. Im not disputing the above in any way, it makes perfect sense and is how I understand the break in procedure to take place.
However despite the technology and manufacturing process evolving the break in method never has hence why the mototune method makes sense to me too - that's why I wanted first hand accounts of it - to further weigh up the pro's/cons.

If I just take the account of the mototune website then I'm an idiot, but as I said those who use it on the drz forum swear by it. Never heard it mentioned on here so thought I'd ask this wider audience if they've encountered it. I'll put you in the "against" column lol :thumbsup:

[Sid Squid]

Or as I normally say it:

Just ride it, no excesses, no labouring, don't baby it, don't hold it at a constant speed.

That will cycle the ring pressure and that's what conditions in the engine's primary mating surfaces.

[Owenski]

Excellent Sid!
How is it you manage to say in 3 lines what neither manuals or website can manage in pages and pages.

Now just got to figure out how to do that on the commute :( ... either that or hit the lakes for a weekend :D

[Fallout]

Now just got to figure out how to do that on the commute :( ... either that or hit the lakes for a weekend :D

Easy mate. Start bike. Ride to layby. Stop. Wait for first fit girl in her little hatchback to drive by. Stonk it past her, showing off. Stop. Wait for her to pass. Stonk it past again. Repeat! :mrgreen:

[yorkie_chris]

It's the don't baby it bit that's important, if you ride it like it's got no water in it or something then it is likely to use oil and low compression.

Riding to work you should be able to get a decent range of rpms pulling out of junctions etc.

Though a decent day out should have it well broken in. Most of the important stuff happens in first few heat cycles, IMO.

[andrewsmith]

or if you buy a new F3 it doesn't need run-in

http://www.ultimatemotorcycling.com/2012/mv-agusta-f3-production-facilities-video

http://youtu.be/cTCVRxCeFHk

cTCVRxCeFHk

But the sid squid method works, that how I ran the 125 in

[Owenski]

NIce vid!

So none of this keep it below 5000rpm bullocks

[dyzio]

What are you buying?

[Mark_h]

I read something on a scooter forum a while back (which I can't find now) that said piston linings had a sacrificial machined pattern on them that was designed to offer some abrasion to the piston rings and get a better fit. If you don't ride it reasonably hard in the first few miles (like on the way out of the showroom) then the pattern wore off before you got anything working hard enough to take advantage of the pattern.

They then produced various engines that had been run in hard v those run in gently and showed far better condition on the hard engines.

However :-
1) This was a scooter forum
2) The bloke may have been doing a roaring trade in new engines from yoofs who wheelied out of the local Chinese scooter showroom.

[Owenski]

I read something on a scooter forum a while back (which I can't find now) that said piston linings had a sacrificial machined pattern on them that was designed to offer some abrasion to the piston rings and get a better fit. If you don't ride it reasonably hard in the first few miles (like on the way out of the showroom) then the pattern wore off before you got anything working hard enough to take advantage of the pattern.

They then produced various engines that had been run in hard v those run in gently and showed far better condition on the hard engines.

However :-
1) This was a scooter forum
2) The bloke may have been doing a roaring trade in new engines from yoofs who wheelied out of the local Chinese scooter showroom.

Thats pretty much the mototune argument, my understanding been the hone pattern on the cylinder wears irregular. This allows for hot oil to leak past the rings and remain inside the combustion chamber, similarly it allows combustion to leak past the rings resulting in lower compression and lower power from the engine

~ I don't pretend to fully get it, that's just what i took from reading the article.

Sid and Chris seem to agree, riding it like a fanny will cause it more harm than making it work through the gears and rev range. Therefore if I do get a new bike this is the advice I'll be following.

[andrewsmith]

NIce vid!

So none of this keep it below 5000rpm bullocks

I'd that for about 100 miles on a YBR125, then started commuting on it up to flat out speeds

[grimey121uk]

I managed to do the magical 1000 miles on the GSR in 9 days, im not really convinced that it needed the full 1000 miles to break in fully as it seemed to loosen up just before the 600 mile service.

I just stayed on the twisties and b-roads for the first 600 miles and give it a bit of stick whilst keeping the revs below 6000ish. Between 600-1000 i pushed it a bit harder not really watching the revs but making sure I wasn't riding like I stole it / bouncing it off the limiter etc.

I think the business of running in is over complex with all these theories, the amount of time I would of spent researching the best method on the internet would of taken longer than racking up the 1000miles following Suzuki's advice.

Just take it out for a spin on some nice twisites and have some fun:)

[AndyBrad]

My personal opinion.. although it's different on bikes.

It doesn't matter that much. I've looked at the liners of very old cars and cars that have done good mileage and you can still see the honing patterns really well. On a bike I imagine it is similar but a lot of the liners have a hard wearing coating.

The issue with running in is to make sure everything is seated and running well as well as bedding in. Obviously ragging it from a freshly built state isn't going to help either. Nore is allowing it to labour.

Sent from my GT-I9300 using Tapatalk 2

[suzukigt380paul]

id say that running in at so many revs for so many miles is a bit over the top these days,when you buy a new tractor,combine,lorry,stationary engine/generator,lawn mower or chainsaw then they will normally be run at there designed engine revs straight out of they box from day one and normally still be working as designed many hours/years or miles later,even a husky chain saw being a 2 stroke running on 50to1 petrol to oil mixture will be run flat out from day one and still be good for about 5000 hours work

[yorkie_chris]

Chain saws aside, I'll bet big stuff gets run it at factory.

Wrt the honing, I would take a guess and say that the bottom of the honing grooves has nothing to do with running in except to hold oil as in normal use, but I suspect the top of the grooves after manufacture have tiny burrs on them. And they need a bit of pressure and speed to give the rings ideal wear before the grooves are flattened out.

The interesting thing would be to take a sample of oil at 600mi and see how much metal is in there.

[andrewsmith]

Chain saws aside, I'll bet big stuff gets run it at factory.

Wrt the honing, I would take a guess and say that the bottom of the honing grooves has nothing to do with running in except to hold oil as in normal use, but I suspect the top of the grooves after manufacture have tiny burrs on them. And they need a bit of pressure and speed to give the rings ideal wear before the grooves are flattened out.

The interesting thing would be to take a sample of oil at 600mi and see how much metal is in there.

They are.
Cummins at Darlo has big test units for the diesels and Perkins are the same.

TBH thats on power generation, where its installed and ran at 110% load for 2 hours on commission, which puts the motor to its limit plus some of the rpm above the governor.
All I can say is that is fun and hot once turbos the size of the average 1000cc car engine start to glow

[embee]

To give an idea of the technicalities of bore finishes, these papers (chosen at random from a Google search) show the parameters usually considered in the analysis and manufacture of a modern cylinder bores, and also how to analyse the wear characteristics.

http://www.digitalmetrology.com/Papers/CylinderBoreNoBkgd.pdf
http://www.solvemetrology.com/NERD/FC900229.pdf
http://www.michmet.com/3d_s_functional_parameters.htm

...but as I said before, what do the manufacturers know about it?

[suzukigt380paul]

Chain saws aside, I'll bet big stuff gets run it at factory.
no i think not,i had in the past new 200grand combines and tractors with may be 1 hour on the clocks and there sent out to do a days work which in the case off a 260hp combine is flat out at 2200 rpm for 400 hours or so every year,so there only serviced(oil & filters changed)once a season,and when it comes down to john deer tractors ive known contractors do 30.000 hrs on the same engine and gearbox,so like i say most large diesels are not run in there just used,and at most they may come with a different running in oil which is changed at low hours

[yorkie_chris]

...but as I said before, what do the manufacturers know about it?

How much of real engineering gets bypassed through warranty dodging lawyers looking out for feckwits giving it 11,000rpm with 10 yards on the clock?

Obeying the "schedule" and letting it lug and chug up a hill at 1400rpm isn't good for it.

[Bibio]

be it wrong or not but i was always led to believe that its not the bore/rings (as such) that you are running in its every thing else. bores/rings will bed in relatively fast compared to say the gearbox which takes time to 'polish' and bed in.

[suzukigt380paul]

How much of real engineering gets bypassed through warranty dodging lawyers looking out for feckwits giving it 11,000rpm with 10 yards on the clock?

Obeying the "schedule" and letting it lug and chug up a hill at 1400rpm isn't good for it.or if you drive like my farther(bless him)he can get his diesel car in top gear with in at most 200yards and thats at about 35mph.and i think it was his suzuki vitara that failed its exhaust emissions a year or so ago and the garage had to take it out for a spin,that must have been the fastest it had ever been revved

[yorkie_chris]

be it wrong or not but i was always led to believe that its not the bore/rings (as such) that you are running in its every thing else. bores/rings will bed in relatively fast compared to say the gearbox which takes time to 'polish' and bed in.

I don't think my gearbox got to it's best until at least 30k.

or if you drive like my farther(bless him)he can get his diesel car in top gear with in at most 200yards and thats at about 35mph.and i think it was his suzuki vitara that failed its exhaust emissions a year or so ago and the garage had to take it out for a spin,that must have been the fastest it had ever been revved

Olde diesels, if they fail on that fill the filter with clean mineral ATF and Italian tune up on the way to the test center... gets them to cough all the crap out!
Or stick some veggie in... My OM601 merc just blew less particulate at test center than the guy remembers 3yr old ones doing on proper derv!

[Bibio]

which veggie oil sunflower or normal and does it mix ok with normal derv?

[Destruktor77]

I've heard this as Redline Run-in as well.

IIRC Someone on the Superduke Forum did a Redline Run-in and apperently tested with other members who had the same bike, his was producing a lot more power as standard.

TBH if I had a brand new bike. I don't think I could contain whacking back the throttle!

[monkey]

How much more is a lot more?

[Destruktor77]

Can't remember exactly but it was a good amount... but I'm going to say about 13-15 bhp. I'll ask my brother he'll remember.