View Full Version : Stopping/slowing with the clutch in. Bad form?
The SV has quite severe engine braking (at least in my view).
As a result, when slowing and stopping for lights/junctions, I tend not to shift down gears, letting the clutch out each time, but rather slow with the brake and then hold the clutch in and shift down the last few gears in one go (without releasing the clutch).
Is best practice not to do that?
Does it mean less control?
Does it matter that much?
forward planing. this ensures you are always in the correct gear at the correct time.
my rule of thumb for town riding, 10mph for each gear. 0-10=1st 10-20=2nd so on and so on.
I for one, am the complete opposite and hardly ever use the brakes approaching junctions etc, prefering to use the fantastic engine braking of the SV. In fact when riding with non V-Twin's they usually complain as they never see a brake light - just a rapidly slowing SV!
I would also say you have less control of a freewheeling bike whilst you click down the gears, relying on just your front brake. Try blipping the throttle on down shifts - will change down sweeter!
In my opinion, I would persevere with using the engine to brake, with practise and a bit of forethought you will ride smoother.
One of the joy's of V-Twins is the engine braking and the glorious noise on over-run.:thumbsup:
johnnyrod
17-08-12, 11:46 AM
Yes it is bad form, the bike is under much better control when you're using the engine braking. If you get used to blipping the throttle on downchanges then there's much less jolt/drag when you let the clutch back out in the new gear, I suspect this is behind what you're doing. The exception is first gear, don't bother trying to use that for engine braking, just slow right down in 2nd then pull the clutch in and cog down before you come to a complete stop. Are you perhaps riding a gear too high round town? Would also mean you spend a lot of time changing down.
:thumright:What they said.^
Blip it.
Ps get a new xorst can. Then your want too
muzikill
17-08-12, 02:23 PM
Tps adjustment can make that sort of engine braking smoother & more controlable too btw.
Spank86
17-08-12, 03:34 PM
Very bad form, I do it all the time.
of course it's ever poorer form to use engine braking and NO normal brakes, you are essentially slowing down without indicating it. A mix of the two is best even if the brakes are doing no more than showing your lights.
Thunderace
17-08-12, 03:52 PM
OOOOOH this is gonna cause a row! But I agree with Spank, engine braking is the way to go, but for gods sake let the lunatics behind you know your braking!
Agree with letting car / bike following you are braking - is my bad habit not to!
I had to 'learn' to use the brakes when out with others on bikes, a wee dab is all that is needed.
Although I have always made a point of dabbing brake's, if a car is following close behind, when approaching junctions etc, plus exaggerating mirror checks, moving across road etc to let them know i am about to perform a manoeuvre.
is it wrong to use engine braking and brakes then.
Elliott
17-08-12, 04:40 PM
is it wrong to use engine braking and brakes then.
I use both and during track days am very harsh on both brakes and engine braking anything to slow the bike down quicker!
I use a mix.of both.
I always touch the brake to bring on the light . Well mostly remember as the 'prillia slows quick on just the engine .
depends on my mood.
pretty scenery mode = engine braking with slightly dragging back for light then off with rear brake turn in keeping a steady throttle then wind throttle on at exit out of corner.
having fun = wait till last sec hammer on anchor's keeping steady throttle till as deep into corner as i dare then feather off brakes still keeping a steady throttle wait till exit and wind on throttle.
both times i may drop gears for what i consider to be the correct one.
Spank86
17-08-12, 05:39 PM
is it wrong to use engine braking and brakes then.
No, engine braking is good because it's saving wear on the brakes however not using your brake lights means you're making a manoeuvre without indicating it which is bad.
Ask any driving instructor.
So this blipping....
Its a quick twist of the throttle and back when you let the clutch out right? Aiming to match the revs?
I seem to just lurch forward. Are we talking very minimal throttle?
sputnik
17-08-12, 06:26 PM
Someone will no doubt shoot this down in flames but I'd suggest the general rule is, as conditions dictate...
Brake braking - good
Engine braking - good, blip, brap, gurgle, pop! IAM would suggest moderation here.
Block gear changing - good
Keeping the clutch in - bad (except obviously what is required to change gear) - if the clutch is in your control of the bike is reduced.
You have to give it a bit of practice.only needs a small twist to bring the rpm up to slip in the gear with matching higher rev s as you go down the box.
pull in clutch, quickly blip throttle bout extra 1/4 turn, knock down a gear then let clutch out. by the time you have done that the bike will have scrubbed enough speed to match the lower gear.
so if your doing 50mph in top (think its about 3.6k revs) to match that revs in 5th you will be dong 45mph drop down to 4th then its 38mph third is 30mph.
but if you want to keep the speed as 50mph when you knock down then you will have to match the revs higher to about 4.1k to do 50mph
its a touchy feely thing and you soon get used to it.
muzikill
17-08-12, 08:44 PM
pull in clutch, quickly blip throttle bout extra 1/4 turn, knock down a gear then let clutch out. by the time you have done that the bike will have scrubbed enough speed to match the lower gear.
so if your doing 50mph in top (think its about 3.6k revs) to match that revs in 5th you will be dong 45mph drop down to 4th then its 38mph third is 30mph.
but if you want to keep the speed as 50mph when you knock down then you will have to match the revs higher to about 4.1k to do 50mph
its a touchy feely thing and you soon get used to it.
Any more tips like that and youll be teaching him to ride bike normally bud :)
Thunderace
17-08-12, 08:49 PM
Wtf, just ride the damn thing and to hell with every bugger else! Ask the GM peeps how I ride! The most dangerous thing on the road is red and got Yamaha decals on it!!!!:thumbsup:
pull in clutch, quickly blip throttle bout extra 1/4 turn, knock down a gear then let clutch out. by the time you have done that the bike will have scrubbed enough speed to match the lower gear.
so if your doing 50mph in top (think its about 3.6k revs) to match that revs in 5th you will be dong 45mph drop down to 4th then its 38mph third is 30mph.
but if you want to keep the speed as 50mph when you knock down then you will have to match the revs higher to about 4.1k to do 50mph
its a touchy feely thing and you soon get used to it.
As bibio above said. The engine braking on the sv is brilliant, I've caught people out with it so now I always give the person behind a courtesy flick of the brake light on, saves the possibility of you ending up in a snotty heap on the floor. Also a technique to use is forward planning by looking ahead as far as you can see in the best postion on the road.
Unless in an emergency situation I've rarely had to use the brakes. Still on my first set of pads all round, 4yrs and just hitting 36000miles later.
Sent from my HTC Desire HD A9191
Fallout
17-08-12, 08:52 PM
Blipping is the business! I picked up the old blip within a few rides. As Bibio said, when you're going to change down, pull in clutch, quick extra 1/4 turn of the throttle, kick down almost immediately after, clutch out. If your bike is new, you might not notice much difference but on older bikes with some mileage you'll notice the change is smoother.
Only thing is, you can't really do it while using the front brakes, but that does encourage you to plan your slow downs better.
muzikill
17-08-12, 09:14 PM
Id back up the blip method. Listen and watch others bikers even racers on the tv. They all do it.
The Idle Biker
17-08-12, 09:26 PM
So this blipping....
Its a quick twist of the throttle and back when you let the clutch out right? Aiming to match the revs?
I seem to just lurch forward. Are we talking very minimal throttle?
You will always get some engine braking on a V twin, this is good not bad.
When you are about to change down, pull in clutch, blip throttle maybe 2k rpm ish, change down, then release. 1 blip for every down change, but don't get hung up on it, just brake in good time.
Blipping the throttle supposedly makes the clutch work less, it does make downchanges smoother, and makes you feel like a racer. :p:smt009 we can all dream.
speedyandypandy
17-08-12, 09:30 PM
I don't stick around for anything behind me, I don't use breaks when out on a cruise, if I've just overtaken a car before a junction with give way/stop sign I will give the lever a touch before I start braking.
i must be weird as i use my brakes a LOT and they are GSXR radial 4 pot. the braking coupled with the engine braking is immense and when put to use is just bloody good fun in the twistys. none of that pussy sunday driver engine braking only malarkey.
yes its ok saying just ride the damned thing but sometimes helping people along by explaining some of the mechanical points gets them learning quicker. i don't think about it as it comes natural now but everything is a learning process and it never stops.
remember the first time you rode a bike!!!
Thunderace
17-08-12, 10:58 PM
Don't try and make me bite again Bibio!;)
Fallout
18-08-12, 07:52 AM
Agree with you Bibio. I use my brakes all the time. I don't know how people say they don't use their brakes! How do you stop at junctions? Engine braking won't bring you to a halt. And if you're riding 'energetically' it's impossible to not use them, unless you decelerate half an hour before every corner. Brakes and engine braking combined is the way forwards. :)
speedyandypandy
18-08-12, 08:32 AM
Agree with you Bibio. I use my brakes all the time. I don't know how people say they don't use their brakes! How do you stop at junctions? Engine braking won't bring you to a halt. And if you're riding 'energetically' it's impossible to not use them, unless you decelerate half an hour before every corner. Brakes and engine braking combined is the way forwards. :)
For junctions, brakes yes, for normal twisty road, normally no, for track yes I can't press them hard enough, but I don't treat the road as a track. Riding 'energetically' doesn't mean you have to pin it on the straights, it's corner speed that does it for me, oh and I don't normally commit so bad that I knee scrap on normal road. Normally smooth is faster. Take a biking holiday to Norway, even our A roads have more twisty sections then some of your B roads :D
yorkie_chris
18-08-12, 08:36 AM
Yes it is bad form, the bike is under much better control when you're using the engine braking. If you get used to blipping the throttle on downchanges then there's much less jolt/drag when you let the clutch back out in the new gear, I suspect this is behind what you're doing.
This.
Learn to shift proper and it be reet.
Problem with clutch out is eventually you'll need to get back on the power and forget what gear you're in and either subject the motor to 2 million rpm, or end up at about 500rpm with it going chugga chugga chugga.
k1ngy SV
18-08-12, 09:09 AM
Problem with clutch out is eventually you'll need to get back on the power and forget what gear you're in and either subject the motor to 2 million rpm, or end up at about 500rpm with it going chugga chugga chugga.
Thought all V-twins made chugga chugga chugga :rolleyes:
:thumbsup:
Thunderace
18-08-12, 01:56 PM
This.
Learn to shift proper and it be reet.
LOL!
Thanks for all the tips.
I got some blipping in this morning. Will work on that.
When you practise once you've blipped the throttle let your clutch out slower when it bites thatll help you control the kangaroo jolt better. Just untill you get used to it
Sent from my HTC Desire HD A9191
No, engine braking is good because it's saving wear on the brakes however not using your brake lights means you're making a manoeuvre without indicating it which is bad.
Ask any driving instructor.
Modern teachings say ... "gears to go, brakes to slow" ie, do not slow using the gears. This is also what is now what is coached in both bike and car advanced driving. However personally I use a mix of both but never coast with the clutch in.
missyburd
19-08-12, 07:08 AM
Blipping works for me! I don't much use the brakes unless making progress as Fallout says (and of course wherever I need to come to a controlled stop ;) ), often the engine braking is enough. But then if you're always in a rush then you're going to mess up your forward planning and brakes are there to be used after all.
As for keeping the clutch in, I remember being told back when I was learning that you should only bring your clutch in right at the last minute while using both brakes, i.e. when you've practically stopped to allow for smooth braking, so no lurching forward on the front. But to be honest, you ride with what you most feel comfortable with at the time. Nowt wrong with asking for a bit of advice, its completely up to you whether you try it and see if it works for you :)
yorkie_chris
19-08-12, 08:05 AM
Only thing is, you can't really do it while using the front brakes, but that does encourage you to plan your slow downs better.
I'd have to disagree.
Modern teachings say ... "gears to go, brakes to slow" ie, do not slow using the gears. This is also what is now what is coached in both bike and car advanced driving. However personally I use a mix of both but never coast with the clutch in.
Both here too.
Not sure how they get to this conclusion though, imagine a big straight where you're flat in 6th... then try and get down to 1st before the corner at the end of it... No idea how doing this "safely" is anything to do with changing down AFTER you've done all the braking. Surely that leaves a massive gap where you're solely downshifting.
So were teaching Brakes to slow?
How does that work for pep's down Porlock hill?
widepants
19-08-12, 09:17 AM
So were teaching Brakes to slow?
How does that work for pep's down Porlock hill?
the smell of burning is greeat in porlock
yorkie_chris
19-08-12, 09:32 AM
Block gear changing - good
IMO, no.
It's something that's drifted in from them making the car test easier for spastics to pass!
Doing this on V twins or singles especially with heavy engine braking may well be fine when you have pre-planned, learned sequences of events. Approaching a red light, approaching a "stop" junction, approaching a known corner...
What happens when a car is pulling into the side of you and you need lots of power NOW? What happens when the light changes green when you thought you needed to stop?
You're in the wrong gear, taking a guess, did I click down 3 times or 4? Result... engine trying to do 5000rpm over the redline, back end fishtailing everywhere, knackers embedded in tank.
Solution, change down gears smoothly matching revs as you decellerate. There is no concentration required as you are never guessing gears, you are just always in the right gear, and it's the smoothest manner with least clattering in the gearbox.
I don't see any benefit of other method compared to this one except in certain racing situations.
speedyandypandy
19-08-12, 09:43 AM
I don't see any benefit of other method compared to this one except in certain racing situations.
There is, you save tyre wear, if you use brakes you wear pads, if you use engine breaking you wear extra on the rear tyre.
You still need to transmit the stopping torque to the road.weather its brake or engine .
yorkie_chris
19-08-12, 10:17 AM
There is, you save tyre wear, if you use brakes you wear pads, if you use engine breaking you wear extra on the rear tyre.
How much wear on rear tyre from gentle engine braking while maintaining a "correct" rpm, say 4000rpm for sake of argument, nice and responsive if power is needed...
Versus not smooth, poor rev matching etc. For example a block shift done wrong, which you will if you do them enough, there is too much concentration needed to count gears.
I would suggest case 1 has minimal tyre wear, case 2 has lots.
Alternatively batter it into the corner downshifting to bring revs up to 8000 or so by time of corner exit, maximum front brakes meaning back is unloaded and "loose" all the way in.
Far more fun, and my opinion is that when riding in this style tyre wear is not my main concern :)
widepants
19-08-12, 11:12 AM
IMO, no.
It's something that's drifted in from them making the car test easier for spastics to pass!
Doing this on V twins or singles especially with heavy engine braking may well be fine when you have pre-planned, learned sequences of events. Approaching a red light, approaching a "stop" junction, approaching a known corner...
What happens when a car is pulling into the side of you and you need lots of power NOW? What happens when the light changes green when you thought you needed to stop?
You're in the wrong gear, taking a guess, did I click down 3 times or 4? Result... engine trying to do 5000rpm over the redline, back end fishtailing everywhere, knackers embedded in tank.
Solution, change down gears smoothly matching revs as you decellerate. There is no concentration required as you are never guessing gears, you are just always in the right gear, and it's the smoothest manner with least clattering in the gearbox.
I don't see any benefit of other method compared to this one except in certain racing situations.
give this man a prize.Change gear to appropriate gear as you slow so that you know you have the power when you need need it .I may stop bits of your engine flying through the engine casing when you hit the wrong gear
missyburd
19-08-12, 12:21 PM
Time spent trying to figure out which gear you're in could be far better spent watching for road hazards and ****s in their own little world who end up endangering your life. In my opinion. I'd rather let the engine dictate when I need to change gear.
BlackFlag94
19-08-12, 01:54 PM
I personally prefer engine braking and going through the 'box.. I find that cars braking don't slow down as much as I do without braking. I then use the brake at about 10mph to come to a stop. I've block changed once and it sounds horrific in the gearbox so never done it since.
As for blipping, I personally dont do it from 2nd to 1st because of the change in revs and the immense engine braking that happens in 1st.
2 question for everyone.... Does engine braking: 1) damage your engine? 2) increase fuel consumed?
yorkie_chris
19-08-12, 01:56 PM
2 question for everyone.... Does engine braking: 1) damage your engine? 2) increase fuel consumed?
I've a 105,000 mile SV that suggests 1) NO
2) marginally, depends on rev range used, probably as much indicative of general style than braking method. MYC gets 65mpg and she almost exclusively uses engine braking.
give this man a prize.Change gear to appropriate gear as you slow so that you know you have the power when you need need it .I may stop bits of your engine flying through the engine casing when you hit the wrong gear
What happens when you get this wrong = Your back wheel locks up or you get thrown onto your your handle bars. Either way its a situation you don't want. Blipping is the way forward. I've never heard of engines blowing up due to this either. If you do hit the wrong gear your bike will let you know esp when you are still letting the clutch out to its full range and the revs are still going up. If this happens pull the clutch back in simples
Sent from my HTC Desire HD A9191
Originally Posted by Mark_h
Modern teachings say ... "gears to go, brakes to slow" ie, do not slow using the gears. This is also what is now what is coached in both bike and car advanced driving. However personally I use a mix of both but never coast with the clutch in.
Disagree here too.
Not sure how they get to this conclusion though, imagine a big straight where you're flat in 6th... then try and get down to 1st before the corner at the end of it... No idea how doing this "safely" is anything to do with changing down AFTER you've done all the braking. Surely that leaves a massive gap where you're solely downshifting.
Hey, never said I agreed with it, it's just what ROSPA, IAM and roadcraft promote these days. Personally I prefer to be in the right gear all the time which involves changing down while slowing down. I really don't agree with the "block change once you've got to the correct speed" school of thought as if/when stuff happens you'll be in the wrong gear to immediately do something about it. However I do stand by the point of never coasting with the clutch in.
Hey, never said I agreed with it, it's just what ROSPA, IAM and roadcraft promote these days. .
Well it goes against there other teaching of being in the right gear to accelerate if needed.
So I'v done just fine in the last 33 years blipping and I'm Blipping well going to keep doing it.:smt019
yorkie_chris
19-08-12, 06:38 PM
Hey, never said I agreed with it, it's just what ROSPA, IAM and roadcraft promote these days. Personally I prefer to be in the right gear all the time which involves changing down while slowing down. I really don't agree with the "block change once you've got to the correct speed" school of thought as if/when stuff happens you'll be in the wrong gear to immediately do something about it. However I do stand by the point of never coasting with the clutch in.
Yes agree there on all counts.
Wasn't having a dig at you hence the "not sure how THEY get to that conclusion" not you personally :)
sputnik
19-08-12, 08:06 PM
IMO, no.
It's something that's drifted in from them making the car test easier for spastics to pass!
Doing this on V twins or singles especially with heavy engine braking may well be fine when you have pre-planned, learned sequences of events. Approaching a red light, approaching a "stop" junction, approaching a known corner...
What happens when a car is pulling into the side of you and you need lots of power NOW? What happens when the light changes green when you thought you needed to stop?
You're in the wrong gear, taking a guess, did I click down 3 times or 4? Result... engine trying to do 5000rpm over the redline, back end fishtailing everywhere, knackers embedded in tank.
Solution, change down gears smoothly matching revs as you decellerate. There is no concentration required as you are never guessing gears, you are just always in the right gear, and it's the smoothest manner with least clattering in the gearbox.
I don't see any benefit of other method compared to this one except in certain racing situations.
Not sure I see the crossover from car tests?
When I said block changing = good I meant that I think it is a good technique, and like most techniques, suitable for use in certain given situations, not as a general rule to apply without thought. I'd also say 6th gear = good, but it's crap for taking off from a standstill.
I understand the correct gear for the correct speed line of thought which I'd agree is in most conditions the optimum approach but I don't think block changing necessarily goes against this. Personally, I wouldn't tend to do more than a couple of gears at a time, but that's my personal preferance. It is something to use when speed is changing rapidly.
Where I'd be most likely to do it would be, say, coming off a motorway slip road where I am decelerating quickly for an upcoming junction/roundabout. I am slowing quickly - I could shift down for a tiny space of time, only to do so again straight away - pointless... or I could shift down two gears by which time I would still be easily land within the comfortable rev range of the gear i've shifted into, still giving scope for accelerating or further deceleration as required.
I believe the IAM book paints a picture of shifting 6th to 2nd - at this point I might start wondering about gear counting and landing in a gear I didn't expect.
There should be no need for complicated mathematics, exploding engines, strange noises or sidewinding rear ends.
yorkie_chris
19-08-12, 08:48 PM
I could shift down for a tiny space of time, only to do so again straight away - pointless...
There should be no need for complicated mathematics, exploding engines, strange noises or sidewinding rear ends.
Just blip and tap it down... takes far less than a second.
I tried tapping down 2 gears earlier today (fair enough on a box that's FAR less refined than suzuki's usual standard...) and didn't like it.
Mikey10
20-08-12, 02:08 AM
Heres my take on the topic.
Basically when it comes to brakes or gears both is the best method in my opinion.
What ever way you do it. It is up to you, what your comfy with is the most important thing. i don't go out riding to ride a bike one way becuase someone says it the best way for them.
If im coming up to a corner or bringing my speed down for a speed limit but i know im not stopping a block changing is perfect for this.
Say im going from a 50 or national and coming to a 40 speed limit in 6th a block change to 4th whilst some braking and a blip to scrub my speed down all in one swift smooth movement is what i would do.
Yes i could be just as smooth changing down from gear to gear whith no brakes but its a longer process you still have to match your revs you still need to match the speed limit for the situation your in wether it be speed limit changes or a corner. So why take longer doing it.
Spank86
20-08-12, 06:45 AM
Modern teachings say ... "gears to go, brakes to slow" ie, do not slow using the gears. This is also what is now what is coached in both bike and car advanced driving. However personally I use a mix of both but never coast with the clutch in.
I agree 100% with this.
Driving instructors have to teach for the lowest common denominator and if they go round trying to get people to engine brake and show brake lights it'll be hopeless, its hard enough to get people to indicate turnings.
missyburd
20-08-12, 06:50 AM
If im coming up to a corner or bringing my speed down for a speed limit but i know im not stopping a block changing is perfect for this.
Say im going from a 50 or national and coming to a 40 speed limit in 6th a block change to 4th whilst some braking and a blip to scrub my speed down all in one swift smooth movement is what i would do.
Yes i could be just as smooth changing down from gear to gear whith no brakes but its a longer process you still have to match your revs you still need to match the speed limit for the situation your in wether it be speed limit changes or a corner. So why take longer doing it.
Correct me if I'm probably wrong but isn't a quickshifter designed to make this easier? Or does everyone blockshift till they can afford one?
speedyandypandy
20-08-12, 06:55 AM
Most quickshifters only work gearing upwards.
Fallout
20-08-12, 07:25 AM
Only time I changed down more than one gear is when I'm coming to a halt at a junction. Clutch in, down to 1st from whatever gear. If I've been decelerating for that junction in plenty of time, I will have gone down through all the gears on the way there.
I enjoy the whole mechanical aspect of riding, so changing gear doesn't bore or bother me. I'm happy to do it. Plus I agree with the comments on control, safety and component wear. I want my rear tyre to have the minimum change in resistance for control, and be engaged in the right gear at all times for safety, and minimize pressure on components with the clutching biting in as revs jumping up higher.
Just the way I like to ride. :)
Fallout
20-08-12, 07:25 AM
*double post*
Mikey10
20-08-12, 08:21 AM
Basically i'll put this way if im approaching a corner and i know what gear it should be taken in i'll block change down to the right gear. To give me more time to foucs on my line and surroundings.
Roundabouts or turings where stopping is'nt always necessary i'll go down the gears one by one but stopping at a junction or lights most time block change down to 2nd then if i am 100% stopping down to 1st.
yorkie_chris
20-08-12, 08:25 AM
How do you know what gear it should be taken in?
On the road I've generally found that with a tight, blind corner there is no way to know whether it remains blind or opens out on exit and you could be 2 or 3 gears different between the two. Only way I know to make sure you hit it just right and apex at 7000 or so is to be changing down on the way in 1 at a time.
How do you know what gear it should be taken in?
On the road I've generally found that with a tight, blind corner there is no way to know whether it remains blind or opens out on exit and you could be 2 or 3 gears different between the two. Only way I know to make sure you hit it just right and apex at 7000 or so is to be changing down on the way in 1 at a time.
Curious as to why you need to hit 7000rpm in a corner when the sv works better lower in the rev range
Sent from my HTC Desire HD A9191
yorkie_chris
20-08-12, 08:40 AM
Curious as to why you need to hit 7000rpm in a corner when the sv works better lower in the rev range
Sent from my HTC Desire HD A9191
a) No it doesn't *
b) My bike has hotter cams
c) Fun
*Look on dyno, 7000 is actually about peak torque on a stocker.
johnnyrod
20-08-12, 08:42 AM
Wow, this is still rumbling! Next we'll be talking about cleaning chains...
The car thing of using brakes more than engine braking is a modern twist on the old teachings, as newer cars are front- not rear wheel drive and have better brakes plus a lot less engine braking. None of these things apply to bikes (okay the brakes are good but you see what I mean).
If you blip, as has been said above, you can change down gears almost as fast as you change up them, it's smooth and everything stays where you want it. I've got some vid of me on track somewhere, you can hear it, I think it's on FB, if it really matters. The only thing I'd say is that the engine isn't a brake, so while it's useful, cogging down so it screams up towards the red line in order to slow you down isn't really the right thing either.
Personally I don't like block changing but we may as well start an argle bargle about using trhe rear brake, we all ride differently and if it does really work for you then fill your boots. I'd only do it with a slipper clutch and then if I was braking like a demon (demons apparently are very good at braking insanely hard).
Spank86
20-08-12, 11:49 AM
It's a lot more about indicating your intentions than it is about how well newer cars can engine brake, just dont be surprised if you never show a brake light and oneday someone goes into the back of you, a brake light is seen immediately, calculating the changing distance between yourself and the car infront takes longer and so increases reaction time.
johnnyrod
20-08-12, 12:00 PM
That's a separate issue, you can lump other things in there like many cars don't think you can do half of the things you can or will do on a bike.
Spank86
20-08-12, 01:31 PM
That's a separate issue, you can lump other things in there like many cars don't think you can do half of the things you can or will do on a bike.
No it's not a separate issue, it is THE issue.
If you solelyn use engine braking you are making a maneuver without signalling it. Thats dangerous because it means people will take longer to react than if they know what you're doing.
As for car drivers not realising what you can do on a bike, they find out the first time you do them and you generally compensate for their ignorance anyway which reduces the risk. What you're talking about is something that will take the people behind you by surprise every single time, it can do nothing else because its impossible to tell whats happening until your bike looks larger infront of them because theyre getting closer wether it just happened 10 mins ago or has never happened before. Its also something you can't compensate for except by braking much further away from corners to allow you to stop engine braking and use your brake lights like you're supposed to.
Added to that it also causes vehicle operators to slam their brakes on harder than they need to which stitches up the road behind you. It's just a bad idea unless you also show brake lights.
BlackFlag94
20-08-12, 01:43 PM
MYC gets 65mpg and she almost exclusively uses engine braking.
WOW !!! I get 45mpg... teach me how to get 65mpg pleaseeee !!!
Thanks for the answers.. much appreciated
johnnyrod
20-08-12, 01:52 PM
You've got the wrong end of the stick so unknot your grots. What I was saying is that the modern car way of being taught is different to how it used to be for the reasons I gave. That means the modern car way of driving doesn't apply to a motorbike. I can figure out that doing stupid things without even signalling is bad, m'kay.
MYC gets 65mpg and she almost exclusively uses engine braking.
WOW !!! I get 45mpg... teach me how to get 65mpg pleaseeee !!!
She cheats and drives sensibly :thumbsup:
Spank86
20-08-12, 02:59 PM
You've got the wrong end of the stick so unknot your grots. What I was saying is that the modern car way of being taught is different to how it used to be for the reasons I gave. That means the modern car way of driving doesn't apply to a motorbike. I can figure out that doing stupid things without even signalling is bad, m'kay.
yes its different from how it used to be taught.
No thats not why, I could slow my car and still can my van perfectly adequately with the engine, but I don't without applying a small amount of brakes for safety reasons.
And yes the modern way of slowing down applies equally for both bikes and cars, use the brake lights.
yorkie_chris
20-08-12, 03:06 PM
Nothing to do with method of slowing, you could slow down while downshifting without the engine applying much back torque at all if you keep the revs low.
The modern car thing I referred to was more like when I was taught to pass my test* the procedure for approaching a red light, for example, was to brake, dip the clutch and only start thinking about gears when either stopped or when you had to, like if the light changed.
*I could drive before and the test had sod all to do with driving...
Passing a test and driving in the real world don't nessasery go hand in hand.
BlackFlag94
20-08-12, 03:43 PM
She cheats and drives sensibly :thumbsup:
Ahaha... fair enough. Is 45mpg about right then or am I too ham fisted?
yorkie_chris
20-08-12, 03:44 PM
It's about right depending on riding style.
Got mine down to mid 30 ish following Dazz on a R1 streetfighter ( the widest set of bars I've ever seen.).
Thunderace
20-08-12, 07:19 PM
How do you know what gear it should be taken in?
On the road I've generally found that with a tight, blind corner there is no way to know whether it remains blind or opens out on exit
Keep your eyes up, look around you can usually tell where the road goes by reading trees, lamp posts etc, get in the gear you judge to be correct in plenty of time and if the situation changes you'll have time to react.
Or ride like me and give it maximum beans into unknown corners then grab a handfull of brakes, drop a few cogs, chuck it in and hope!;)
Thunderace
20-08-12, 07:23 PM
Only time I changed down more than one gear is when I'm coming to a halt at a junction. Clutch in, down to 1st from whatever gear. If I've been decelerating for that junction in plenty of time, I will have gone down through all the gears on the way there.
I enjoy the whole mechanical aspect of riding, so changing gear doesn't bore or bother me. I'm happy to do it. Plus I agree with the comments on control, safety and component wear. I want my rear tyre to have the minimum change in resistance for control, and be engaged in the right gear at all times for safety, and minimize pressure on components with the clutching biting in as revs jumping up higher.
Just the way I like to ride. :)
Down shifting to slow down is the business, overrun is what it's all about..pop pop bang pop boom!........:D
missyburd
20-08-12, 10:07 PM
WOW !!! I get 45mpg... teach me how to get 65mpg pleaseeee !!!
Thanks for the answers.. much appreciated
She cheats and drives sensibly :thumbsup:
Ahaha... fair enough. Is 45mpg about right then or am I too ham fisted?
65mpg is a tad unrealistic, I'm reliably getting between 55 and 61. I've had 70 on a long trip before.
I don't ride high on the revs everywhere in day to day riding, my hands don't seem to take the vibrations at all well. I ride as smooth as I can, about it really. When I'm on a fun bimble I get closer to 50.
i get 45mpg easy, even on a fast ride out. Best i've got is 185 miles to 14 litres. That was on a motorway/dual carriageway cruise at 'decent' speed.
BlackFlag94
20-08-12, 10:46 PM
i get 45mpg easy, even on a fast ride out. Best i've got is 185 miles to 14 litres. That was on a motorway/dual carriageway cruise at 'decent' speed.
I got about 180-190 miles off 13.8L before but that was at about 50-60 (leading the way to my parents in a Land Rover) on the way down to Hampshire and then Dorset.
What sort of revs do you guys cruise at? I used to cruise between 2.5k and 3k but have since changed to about 3.5-4k and fuel consumption doesn't seem any different. Is it just a really bad weak spot with the fueling or TPS?
I didn't hijack this.... :smt105
in 6th??? you must be doing 50ish? I'm between 5k-8k depending how fast i want to go. 70mph on an S (pointy) is about 5500rpm, depending on weather conditions
An engine can only do 'so much' economy. You need to balance out the making the engine work with revs to making the most of the power it's producing. Sitting too low in the revs is the same as sitting too high. You're making the engine work hard to create power.
missyburd
21-08-12, 07:14 AM
What sort of revs do you guys cruise at?
No idea, not had a rev counter for months now :rolleyes:
Someone get this thread back on track please? :smt104
No idea, not had a rev counter for months now :rolleyes:
Someone get this thread back on track please? :smt104
:smt083 "its all about you" (sung) ;)
johnnyrod
21-08-12, 08:36 AM
I might if it was worth it, think after 9 pages we've kicked the **** out of it good and proper
widepants
21-08-12, 10:50 AM
WOW !!! I get 45mpg... teach me how to get 65mpg pleaseeee !!!
Thanks for the answers.. much appreciated
she is slim and streamlined;)
Balky001
21-08-12, 04:17 PM
Just came back from driving in the Alps. One of the very few signs in English is 'Use Engine Braking' when going down hill. I reckon its all those Brits using their brakes far too much and burning out that got the signs translated. ;)
For the record, I'm a born again blipper and down the box sort or rider! Still missing my slipper clutch
Thunderace
21-08-12, 05:09 PM
As this seems to have changed into a thread about fuel consumption instead of weather to down shift or not, I thought I'd combine the two, if you have fuel injectors decelerating using your gears uses 0 fuel, yes that's correct zip, nadda, nothing at all so there you go.
This is because your engine needs no fuel to turn when the weight of the vehicle is transferred through the gears, similar principal to bump starting, ie, you need no fuel to start the engine turning, the gears do it for you this in turn pulls fuel in and presto away you go.
Unless your fuel management is seriously defunct, down shifting to slow down uses 0% of your fuel!
Hope this little nugget helps!;)
missyburd
21-08-12, 05:27 PM
Hope this little nugget helps!;)
Not at all, I ain't got fuel injectors :smt040
As this seems to have changed into a thread about fuel consumption instead of weather to down shift or not, I thought I'd combine the two, if you have fuel injectors decelerating using your gears uses 0 fuel, yes that's correct zip, nadda, nothing at all so there you go.
This is because your engine needs no fuel to turn when the weight of the vehicle is transferred through the gears, similar principal to bump starting, ie, you need no fuel to start the engine turning, the gears do it for you this in turn pulls fuel in and presto away you go.
Unless your fuel management is seriously defunct, down shifting to slow down uses 0% of your fuel!
Hope this little nugget helps!;)
eeerrrmmm don't think so :rolleyes: that's like saying you use no fuel at tickover. hate to burst your bubble but if the FI was to shut fuel you would end up without traction which as we all know is bad, you would also come to a very quick stop. the injectors are still squirting so you still use fuel :smt019
try hitting the kill switch without pulling the clutch in :smt040
Full cut depends on the map.
You do cut the injection up to a point depending on rpm ,tps and map.
Thunderace
21-08-12, 06:36 PM
eeerrrmmm don't think so :rolleyes: that's like saying you use no fuel at tickover. hate to burst your bubble but if the FI was to shut fuel you would end up without traction which as we all know is bad, you would also come to a very quick stop. the injectors are still squirting so you still use fuel :smt019
try hitting the kill switch without pulling the clutch in :smt040
Google it!:D Of course engines use fuel at tickover if they didn't they would stop! Not exactly sure about v-twins but in all modern four pot petrol and diesel engines with fuel injectors, the fuel management system will pump no fuel when running down through the gears, up until the gears come to a stop when the injectors start to pump to keep the engine turning.
Try in your car, drive coasting on the clutch using brakes to slow down, then use your gears to slow down on the return journey, watch your range increase.
Or you could read this!:smt019
http://uk.answers.yahoo.com/question/index?qid=20070905080001AABAYcV
learn something new every day.
hhhmmm this is bugging me now. so if i were to shut the throttle going into a corner the FI will cut fuel which in turn cuts traction as the only thing making the bike go forward is momentum?
Thunderace
21-08-12, 07:30 PM
Pretty much yes, because the weight/momentum is turning the engine via the gears it needs no fuel, so to inject it at this point would be a waste.;)
Spank86
21-08-12, 07:31 PM
hhhmmm this is bugging me now. so if i were to shut the throttle going into a corner the FI will cut fuel which in turn cuts traction as the only thing making the bike go forward is momentum?
and this we call engine braking :D
Thunderace
21-08-12, 07:36 PM
and this we call engine braking :d
lol!:-d
learn something new every day.
hhhmmm this is bugging me now. so if i were to shut the throttle going into a corner the FI will cut fuel which in turn cuts traction as the only thing making the bike go forward is momentum?
Another good reason to keep a neutral to slightly positive throttle up to you open it up again .
BlackFlag94
21-08-12, 07:57 PM
hhhmmm this is bugging me now. so if i were to shut the throttle going into a corner the FI will cut fuel which in turn cuts traction as the only thing making the bike go forward is momentum?
No... because the clutch is still engaged. It's only when you disengage the clutch that you feel grip deteriorate.
So what we have worked out now after 10 pages is that it is better on fuel and easier (in terms of reading the road and less taxing on the brain) to use engine braking and going down the gearbox 1 gear at a time.... I'm fairly sure this is the common concensus. Agreed? :cheers:
well if it does cut fuel than that is bad as you only have momentum driving the rear wheel so the rear wheel is more inclined to give up traction in fact you have no traction, well you do but in the wrong sense as its now acting in a braking manner.
suppose that explains why it took me a while to get used to FI bikes after riding strokers all those years ago.
Thunderace
21-08-12, 08:09 PM
No... because the clutch is still engaged. It's only when you disengage the clutch that you feel grip deteriorate.
So what we have worked out now after 10 pages is that it is better on fuel and easier (in terms of reading the road and less taxing on the brain) to use engine braking and going down the gearbox 1 gear at a time.... I'm fairly sure this is the common concensus. Agreed? :cheers:
Finally!!!!!
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