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yorkie_chris
24-08-12, 10:15 AM
So the limp wristed, overpaid sprout eating scum appear to be aiming another gun at us.

This taken from MAGs facebook post.

How much further are they going to push? It's already gone far enough to warrant a serious campaign of civil disobedience but it's not like there are enough coppers on the roads for anyone to notice.


In mid-July, as reported at the time, the European Commission published proposals to mandate regular Road Worthiness Testing (RWT) for bikes, trikes and other road vehicles, in all EU member states. You may remember, that more than 18 mont
hs ago, many of you completed a consultation on the subject, one which was incredibly badly drafted and which was only available in English. Great for the UK perhaps, but not so good for all the European countries who don't use English as their first language. MAG member Jon Strong subsequently lodged a complaint with the European Ombudsman that it wasn't fit for purpose, something the Ombudsman acknowledged was a case the Commission needs to answer.

I'm pleased to say that over 9000 people did respond to the consultation though, and it was noted that by far the highest proportion of respondents were riders, so thanks.

MAG is investigating the implications for Powered Two-Wheelers (PTW) - mopeds, motorcycles, sidecar outfits - and trikes, compared to the UK's current 'MoT' test with the proposals for RWT. We are in touch with the various UK authorities and are working in Europe with our FEMA colleagues. The UK authorities are now holding a consultation (until Sept 5th) with invited parties, and don't worry, MAG is involved. Formal discussions on these proposals at EU level will commence on 7th September.

The proposed RWT inspections go far beyond the current requirements for a bike MoT. Riders and MoT stations would see some significant changes, and a £50.00 test fee seems likely based on the available data.

MAG(UK) believes the effect of the proposed additional tests and minimum requirements would be to transform the MoT we are familiar with into a Super-MoT - more extensive, more invasive, more costly.

Much of the evidence being offered to justify these changes appears to be flimsy and there is other evidence that indicates that any road safety or environmental benefits would be small compared to the costs of making the changes. From what we can see there appears to be little support for the proposals and we hope that by working with other organisations and politicians we will be successful in opposing the changes we are concerned about. In the meantime, we believe the proposals as they are currently drafted represent a real and genuine threat to biking as we know it.

MAG Netherlands and MAG Belgium are organising a protest ride to Brussels on the 22nd September leaving at 11:00 from Hazeldonk south of Breda, along the A16 (E19) (just before the border crossing Netherlands-Belgium). It's being supported by other FEMA rider organisations, such as those from Norway and even Germany, home of the TuV test.

Here in the UK, MAG is supporting the protest ride, but we'll be doing something this side of the Channel too, if you can't make it over to the Continent. We aren't going to demonstrate at this stage as we are working with the Dept for Transport, but we are going to organise 'ride-ins' to MoT centres here to raise awareness of the new proposals and offer information and support. We are also planning the next stage of our own campaign on RWT which is where you, and good old letter writing begins again. It's all to come in the next few weeks.

We have been warning of these developments for more than a year, well before the proposals were published. During that time MAG has been campaigning to expose the EU's failure to consult the public correctly before drafting the proposals. After analysing the background material published by the Commission in July, MAG does not believe there is sufficient or reliable evidence to support the proposals. But in essence:


PURPOSE OF THE REGULATION:
The goal of road worthiness testing is said to be "to check the functionality of safety components, the environmental performance and the compliance of a vehicle with its approval".

MAG's main concerns about the proposals include:

1. Modified vehicles: RWT is intended to check for modifications to the vehicle and ensure compliance with type-approval; DfT say this may prevent most modifications to vehicles without further approval of the vehicle and will apply to many components. Even 'Historic' vehicles (over 30 years old) that were built before the Type-Approval system was introduced would be subject to checks - the Regulation allows them to be exempted from RWT, but only if they are of original appearance, including replacement components. This would be both difficult to administer and counter-productive as many historic vehicles were supplied in non-standard form and modified for improved reliability, better lighting, etc. throughout their life.

2. Cost and Complexity of the test: RWT tests would take longer, test more items, more rigorously and will require bike testing stations to invest in new equipment where measurement is not part of the current MoT
• gas emission analysis / interrogation of On-Board Diagnostic equipment (this will require new testing equipment)
• noise meter to decide borderline cases (this will require new testing equipment)
• brake efficiency testing (DfT say this is may require changes to brake testing equipment)
• brake fluid analysis (this will require new testing equipment)
• efficiency of shock absorbers on trikes (this will require new testing equipment)
• operation of security devices
• more invasive testing (the Commission appears to want brake pads/shoes to be visually inspected for contamination of their surfaces)
• all trailers capable of more than 25mph must be tested (DfT say this includes all trailers - eg; motorcycle trailers)
• annual re-training of RWT inspectors (added cost)
• creating an EU system linking national and manufacturers' electronic vehicle databases so that records and road worthiness information about all vehicles will be available everywhere in the UK (subject to the Commission conducting a feasibility study)

3. Other impacts on riders
• MAG believes there is a real possibility of a 40% increase in test fees to £50.00 for solo bikes (based on available comparative data provided by the Commission and national testing authorities)
• Riders would also be faced with increased servicing and repair costs in order to meet the new test standard.
• Fewer testing stations (the cost of new testing equipment may force small testers to give up, ALSO testers will have to avoid conflicts of interest, specifically 'salary or any economic interest or personal benefit' - this may mean larger, less local, dedicated testing centres if only testing OR repair is permitted)
• RWT certificates must be kept on the vehicle (possibility of theft and damage to the certificate)
• The Commission wants a re-test after any modifications to safety and environmental systems or components (this would be a decision for the UK authorities)
• The Commission wants a re-test when the vehicle changes hands (this would be a decision for the UK authorities)
• Dangerous faults would result in vehicle registration being 'revoked' until the vehicle passes another test (this suggests a re-registration fee of £25-55 based on DVLA's current charges)

National governments may opt out of some aspects of RWT and also go beyond the minimum requirements in the Regulation, eg; the proposal for testing bikes and trikes after year-four and then every two years - UK government has already signalled it would not change the frequency of testing from the current year-three, then annual MoT frequency.

The date of implementation is expected to fall sometime between 2014-16 depending on progress of the Regulation. There would be a transition period of up to five years after the new Regulations come in to force, during which time the existing MoT may continue.

This is a significant package of measures, with detailed annexes and three Impact Assessment documents. All documents relating to the proposals may be accessed at from the Commission web site.

For details of the test and for text of the proposal in full go to
http://www.mag-uk.org/en/newsdetail/a7034 (http://www.facebook.com/l.php?u=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.mag-uk.org%2Fen%2Fnewsdetail%2Fa7034&h=DAQESZX6PAQHKzOBXHccBkRYb-D0VeMaYDaSF62INHaAR0w&s=1)

where you can also sign up for regular news mailings

speedyandypandy
24-08-12, 04:09 PM
oh dear..................*worried*

Thunderace
24-08-12, 04:31 PM
Oh dear! Just been in Germany for 3 years and the BFG/TUV test is thorough enough. I do agree that some fairly ropey bikes can pass the current mot but that being said they can't pass the mot if they're dangerous.

It all sounds very unnecessary to me and if it does get passed I doubt very much that my current bike would pass a RWT.:confused:

Smells decidedly fishy, almost like they're trying to make us all ride brand new bikes!:pukel:

Wideboy
24-08-12, 04:33 PM
is that not the whole point of a fecking MOT test?!......... brain dead hairy cousin fraternisers, just trying to dress up a reason to bump up MOT prices!

Wideboy
24-08-12, 04:34 PM
Oh dear! Just been in Germany for 3 years and the BFG/TUV test is thorough enough. I do agree that some fairly ropey bikes can pass the current mot but that being said they can't pass the mot if they're dangerous.

It all sounds very unnecessary to me and if it does get passed I doubt very much that my current bike would pass a RWT.:confused:

Smells decidedly fishy, almost like they're trying to make us all ride brand new bikes!:pukel:
if you're referring to knackard suspension, i cant see how they would be able to deem it as dangerous without a road test?

Jayneflakes
24-08-12, 05:06 PM
I have been following this for some months, given the modifications I have made to my bike, it does worry me, which is why I have attended the MAG protests.

MAG need our support right now to make our voice heard.

Thunderace
24-08-12, 05:17 PM
if you're referring to knackard suspension, i cant see how they would be able to deem it as dangerous without a road test?

Very true, until i read this I'd forgotten about my zzr1100, the rear shock was so fecked it was like riding a bouncy castle, but that passed it's mot just before I sold it.

andrewsmith
24-08-12, 07:42 PM
I have been following this for some months, given the modifications I have made to my bike, it does worry me, which is why I have attended the MAG protests.

MAG need our support right now to make our voice heard.

Most on here (me and Yorkie included) would in theroy fail the RWT test if it comes in.
If the EU wants to make a change, roll out TUV tests as they are internationally regarded as one of the best and most through (in automotive and outside of it) out there.

It sort of makes the UK's MOT look a little bit ****.

Bibio
24-08-12, 10:01 PM
well if they implement this then i'm well fecked along with almost every single MC on the road. this means that even changing the indicators could potentially fail your bike.

so by their reckoning i'm not allowed to ride a MC as every single one has to be lowered for me to be able to ride it.

by by after-market companies.

i do agree with a bit of a stricter test as there are some death traps on the road but FFS this is all taking the pizz.

DJ123
24-08-12, 10:05 PM
before they can implement this they have to define terms. All manufacturers make accesories for their bikes, and bits are made for their bikes-BMW have Remus exhausts, Triumph have Arrow etc. They are approved manufacturer parts.
Then they have to define what is safe and legal, and what is not. What is acceptable on one bike isn't on another. Then you have testers discretion.

Bibio
24-08-12, 10:15 PM
so what about people like me who have no option but to bolt bits from another bike on to get it to fit. i have done it properly it's safe but as far as the new rules will go i would be deemed unfit for purpose.

DJ123
24-08-12, 10:20 PM
depends how far they go with it. As you say, it is safe so there is not an issue with safety. There are more idiots putting wheels on cars that have the incorrect offset and wear tyres/bearings out in no time. These are not picked up on, and should be.
The emphesis of this EU crap should be on safety. Doesn't matter if it is the end user of factory, as long as the bike as a whole machine is safe. Let's face it how many people change exhausts/install baffle, tyres, lights before an MOT to get it to pass and then put it back to how it was.

Bibio
24-08-12, 10:29 PM
all i can say is the when the new regs come in the people responsible had better go find a private island, change their name and disappear as there is going to be a loooot of angry bikers out there never mind the chapter members.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lU4ke34dKWo

DJ123
24-08-12, 10:36 PM
They will claim it as a second home you know ;) If that island has nice twisty roads i will be visiting :lol: It's not when, it's if. When was the last time a major change in the automotive industry was issued?
Bikes have always progressed with common sense and safety in mind by the minds of the manufacturers. 186mph speed restrictions, lights to be on at all times etc. As far as i am aware those 2 changes alone were done by the industry of their own free will, no law enforced or passed to make it a legal requirement. As well as many, many bikers against ths all manufacturers will be and the aftermarket companies. I'd be suprised if it got passed to ban any/all aftermarket modifications. Let's face it, how would you restrict a motorcycle after passing your test?

embee
25-08-12, 11:09 AM
http://ec.europa.eu/transport/doc/roadworthiness-package/com%282012%29380.pdf

It's dated 13-07-12 so I assume it's the latest version.

As usual it's a mix of good intention, mis-use of statistics, and vastly over-complication.
Some countries don't have the equivalent of the MOT/TUV and it doesn't seem unreasonable to introduce something like it in those cases.
There are statistics quoted for numbers of accidents linked to technical faults which from what I've read elsewhere are highly questionable. I thought it was only about 1% actually attributable to a technical defect.
(7) Solid investigation results show that 8% of the accidents involving motorcycles are
caused or linked to technical defects.
There may be a coincidental fault, or it may be a minor issue which wasn't actually the cause of the incident, and I suspect that these get confused with "caused/linked".

As I read it (which admittedly was a fairly quick flick through and I may well have missed some key points) it's probably not going to affect the UK MOT much (may be wrong). This is not to be confused with the other proposed regulatory stuff relating to type approval and prohibition of modification to drive-train etc.
I was particularly bothered by the possible "trailer" regs, the relevant items are
– trailers and semi-trailers with a maximum permissible mass not exceeding 3
500 kg – vehicle categories O1 and O2,
– trailers and semi-trailers with a maximum permissible mass exceeding 3 500
kg – vehicle categories O3 and O4,
I can't find the definitions of the sub-categories, but by description M1= cars, M2/3= passenger carriers, N1/2=goods vehicles, and O is trailers, but what the sub-categories are is not described..
Bikes etc come into L
– two- or three-wheel vehicles – vehicle categories L1e, L2e, L3e, L4e, L5e, L6e
and L7e,
As we know, in the UK small trailers are not registered, as they are in some other countries. How this testing regime could be achieved without registration I don't know, and retrospective registration of trailers would be a nightmare. We shall see.

It depresses me that so much more bureaucracy and ballache gets introduced with probably little real benefit over a simple system. On the other hand I try not to get worked up over it, it'll happen one way or another, and we'll have to live with it. Shame, but that's the real world we have made for ourselves.

Having to get a new MOT when a vehicle changes hands will be a total pain. I wonder what the timescale will be, a bit like the "HIPS" carp for house sales (which was scrapped by the this government). All the "what-ifs", do you get it before the sale is agreed or after, for how long is it valid? If you agree to buy a bike, do you have to then wait (weeks?) for a new MOT to be booked/passed? If it's before, and you fail to sell it in a certain period, you then need to get another one?
Good grief.

victor_meldrew
04-09-12, 07:12 PM
This just picked up from the British Rally Forum (similar proposals in the pipeline for modifying cars apparently ..) :

"it might be worth getting a copy of todays speech by Norman Baker - it is on the telly RIGHT NOW. He is answering questions on the anti tampering rules - a direct question by bikers - and has said that they have argued against them, but without success, and will be introduced in 2016!

Now this was amongst a load of bike related waffle, so I would like a clearer view."

any more info on this ??
Nothing on MCN (unsurprising as this was only posted an hour or so ago)

GowerSV
04-09-12, 07:35 PM
You can have the safest bike in the world but if it's ridden by a nob, that's the danger. How will they test for that?

Bibio
04-09-12, 07:37 PM
anti tamper = garage/dealer only servicing and no deviation from manufacturer specifications for parts and accessory's. which means almost every single biker on the road will be subject to fines... kerchinggggggg

The Flame
05-09-12, 10:29 AM
I'm confused and worried: of course my bike isn't original, but it's clear even to a blind person that it's much safer than an original one...this is actually what I can't understand of regulators: I've a gixxer front end with ohlins cartridges, wp comp rear shock, radial master cylinder...how on earth could my bike be less safe than an original one with crappy suspensions and tiny calipers?
how a led turning indicator could prevent a bike from being safe?
how an exhaust system that respects the sound and emissions parameters could prevent a bike from being safe?
I must say that I live in a sort of limbo as i've an italian plate that means no mot test for me as long as i go back and forth from calais every six months to prove that the bike hasn't been here for more than six months...
it'll end up in me transforming it in a track day only bike, and buying a scooter... (or maybe a multi 1200s..who knows?)
I see people everyday riding crappy scooters and maxi scooters (like tmax...in Italy there's an endless hate for tmax riders....) that would take double the distance to slow down compared to my or to a lot of others's bikes..
I can't really understand why if a person is a tremendous and ignorant dumbass ends up being a politician....

timwilky
05-09-12, 10:57 AM
I'm confused and worried:
<snip>
I can't really understand why if a person is a tremendous and ignorant dumbass ends up being a politician....

I think the real issue here isn't the politicians. It is the unelected bureaucrats. The ones with a job for life that are not subject to a vote out of office. We have no way of stopping their incessant generation of rules/regulations short of saying feck you EEC we're out of here.

thefallenangel
08-09-12, 07:10 PM
Does this mean every SV650 will go back to D220 tyres, no oil in suspension and the yoyo back end?

Lozzo
08-09-12, 08:22 PM
I don't know why MAG are getting so upset about it... pretty soon there isn't going to be any new blood coming into motorcycling because of the new stepped licencing and test structure that comes into effect in Jan 2013.

Obviously the MAG hierarchy aren't bothered about that because they already have licences, but they need to have all bases covered where modifications and bike building are concerned or they won't be able to get MOTs on their Bonnie chops and badly thrown together streetfighters

Bibio
08-09-12, 08:29 PM
I don't know why MAG are getting so upset about it... pretty soon there isn't going to be any new blood coming into motorcycling because of the new stepped licencing and test structure that comes into effect in Jan 2013.

Obviously the MAG hierarchy aren't bothered about that because they already have licences, but they need to have all bases covered where modifications and bike building are concerned or they won't be able to get MOTs on their Bonnie chops and badly thrown together streetfighters

and you'll be out of a job.. i wish those asswipes in brussels would just let people get on with it. the human race has survived for millennia without them interfering and we would get on a lot better if we they would stop telling us what's good for us. i'll make my own mind up thank you and if i get hurt then it's my fault but if they get their way then if i get hurt it's their fault.

yorkie_chris
09-09-12, 01:35 AM
and you'll be out of a job.. i wish those asswipes in brussels would just let people get on with it. the human race has survived for millennia without them interfering and we would get on a lot better if we they would stop telling us what's good for us. i'll make my own mind up thank you and if i get hurt then it's my fault but if they get their way then if i get hurt it's their fault.

Indeed.

Personally I'd like to ram their badly though out paperwork down their throats after doing something unpleasant to their daughters, soiling their tablecloth and sh*tting on their lawn.

orose
09-09-12, 07:16 AM
I don't know why MAG are getting so upset about it... pretty soon there isn't going to be any new blood coming into motorcycling because of the new stepped licencing and test structure that comes into effect in Jan 2013.

Obviously the MAG hierarchy aren't bothered about that because they already have licences, but they need to have all bases covered where modifications and bike building are concerned or they won't be able to get MOTs on their Bonnie chops and badly thrown together streetfighters

As I said on Facebook, we are bothered about the licencing thing - the only difference was that rather than being bothered in the last week or so like yourself, we were actively demonstrating against it in 2005.

As far as badly made streetfighters and chops are concerned, they won't be affected (as it stands) - the regulations we're talking about are for type approval, not single vehicle approval, so would only affect volume manufacturers.

I have heard talk of changes to SVA as well, but they seem to be fairly sensible at present (e.g., a minimum turning circle for bikes, so that the long-fork chops are forced to be capable of handling an average roundabout).

andrewsmith
09-09-12, 08:35 AM
I have heard talk of changes to SVA as well, but they seem to be fairly sensible at present (e.g., a minimum turning circle for bikes, so that the long-fork chops are forced to be capable of handling an average roundabout).

Thats been rumbling on for a while. Do agree with it TBH on the forks

Lozzo
10-09-12, 12:08 AM
As I said on Facebook, we are bothered about the licencing thing - the only difference was that rather than being bothered in the last week or so like yourself, we were actively demonstrating against it in 2005.

I don't see much being made of it recently and having been involved in the bike trade since way before then and being on top of changes that could affect the market I don't remember seeing much about it in MCN or anywhere else until it landed on our doorstep.

As far as badly made streetfighters and chops are concerned, they won't be affected (as it stands) - the regulations we're talking about are for type approval, not single vehicle approval, so would only affect volume manufacturers.


Really? And what do you think these streetfighters are built around then? They aren't specialist frames, 99% of them are built around existing registered vehicles and as such will fall victim to the legislation - maybe it won't affect the chops much if they go through SVA, which many don't as they have old numbers stamped into new specialist frames or the original headstock removed and welded into what is basically a new specialist frame (I've seen this done to many chops). The anti-tamper law and type approval will affect virtually every bike on the road.

littleoldman2
03-11-12, 11:39 AM
A chance to DO something
https://www.facebook.com/notes/eu-hands-off-biking-a-motorcycle-action-group-campaign/action-opportunity-anti-tampering-etc-related-petition-to-the-eu-parliament-plea/345355935561210

For those (like Bibio) who don't do Farcebook.

With the EU Parliament vote on Type Approval approaching (20th Nov), here's an action that MAG would be grateful you got involved in.

It's the signing of a petition for the EU Parliament, however it will take a few minutes because perhaps unsurprisingly, it isn't as straight forward as writing your name... Please do spend the time.

You will be actually creating your own petition, but so that it links with the one that MAG member Jon Strong has already submitted, it is vital that you use the same title.

If you follow the link (https://www.secure.europarl.europa.eu/aboutparliament/en/petition.html) you first put in your personal details and ignore the box that asks if you are representing an organisation, (unless you are perhaps representing your bike club)
Then enter stage 2, which asks if you are happy for your petition to be public etc, below which you can enter the title of your petition.

Please enter the title as-

Petition requesting postponement of IMCO and EU Parliament Plenary votes on Regulation for Powered Two Wheeler Type Approval and Market Surveillance until EU Ombudsman has published decision on complaint covering the proposed regulation - For urgent consideration.


Then, in the big body text box, please enter the following, or some version of it:


Dear Signora Mazzoni and members of the Petitions Committee of the European Parliament,

I am requesting my name be added to the petition submitted by Mr Jonathan Strong

Title of Petition:
Petition requesting postponement of IMCO and EU Parliament Plenary votes on Regulation for Powered Two Wheeler Type Approval and Market Surveillance until EU Ombudsman has published decision on complaint covering the proposed regulation - For urgent consideration.
Dated: 09/10/2012 I believe Mr Strong has raised a fundamental question concerning how we are governed under treaty law and how the European Commission as lawmakers should honour and follow the laws that grant them the powers to propose laws that affect us all. As the European Parliament appointed Ombudsman Diamandouros to decide on maladministration by EU institutions, it would be right for the European Parliament to respect his position, he having been requested to decide whether there has been maladministration in the drafting of the Proposed Type Approval regulation. I agree with Mr Strong that if lawmakers are not clearly seen to be following law and acting within their powers, they present a poor model for citizens who are expected to follow the laws they make and bring the institutions of the European Union into disrepute. Along with Mr Strong I request that the European Parliament postpones its key votes in IMCO and in Plenary session until the European Ombudsman has published his decision as to whether there was maladministration in the process by which the draft legislative act covering Type Approval and proposed by the European Commission was drafted and consequently as to the lawfulness of that act.
Yours sincerely,


Thanks very much. We are referencing this petition in a letter that MAG Central is sending to every MEP ahead of the vote, so it would be nice if you do find the time to complete it.

garynortheast
03-11-12, 10:14 PM
Done.

The Idle Biker
03-11-12, 10:31 PM
Done too

andreis
04-11-12, 02:12 PM
Done toox2

SVRIDER07
04-11-12, 02:25 PM
the old days of blasting around making lots of noise are coming to an end nothing anyone can do about it, we have had it good for along time, bike emissions are coming and strict noise regulation will be enforced im sure but then i cant say im sad about that as i have got older i prefer to be quieter and other peoples noisey bikes annoy abit especialy when you are somewhere in the country that is meant to be peacefull. Cars by the large dont get away with it so why should bikes! just my pennys worth.

yorkie_chris
04-11-12, 02:52 PM
This is sod all to do with the police having time to enforce existing noise laws this is pointless and freedom encroaching bullsh*t which is killing our sport by making it impossible to join in, making it too expensive for anyone.

andrewsmith
04-11-12, 03:40 PM
Done

This is sod all to do with the police having time to enforce existing noise laws this is pointless and freedom encroaching bullsh*t which is killing our sport by making it impossible to join in, making it too expensive for anyone.

this

andreis
04-11-12, 03:59 PM
This is sod all to do with the police having time to enforce existing noise laws this is pointless and freedom encroaching bullsh*t which is killing our sport by making it impossible to join in, making it too expensive for anyone.

Completely agree. They can't openly ban it, so they'll make REALLY hard to take part in it. Procust type BS, of course.

Most problems have been usually addressed by existing legislation (noise limits which have been defined decades ago address what SVRIDER07 was talking about). YC is completely correct about all of this being just some more liberty crushing at its best.

I personally hope this whole draconian and authoritarian crap that is the EU will crumble ASAP. When referring to administration, the smaller the distance between those who are affected by measures and those who enact the measures, the better the result (e.g. the closer to the notion of "self governing"). In the case of the EU, there is an astronomical distance between the two sides and, as a result, we keep getting this kind of no-thought, no-research, exists-just-to-show-EU-has-a-role piece of sh*t.

Unfortunately, the protests regarding tiered licence have been ignored and as always, once something is enacted into law, it's nigh on impossible to bring down (which is why witch hunting is still legal in some US states)

yorkie_chris
04-11-12, 05:20 PM
(which is why witch hunting is still legal in some US states)

See this would be ace, with a modern twist, we could take a trip to brussels with some specially modified hunting sidecar outfits, water board all these EU types until they admit they've sh*gged saddam hussein and satan on the sabbath and set fire to them with tyres and petrol like so many slightly noisier speed cameras! :smt081

victor_meldrew
05-11-12, 08:32 AM
Done :-)