Fuel treatment(might be the right word?).

[speedyandypandy]

There has been a few threads about water in fuel, have anyone heard/tried/tested any of these water-mix-into-fuel-and-cleans-everything(don't know the correct english name for it) chemicals? Fuel treatment might be the right word.
I keep coming across threads when searching where people have good things to say about fuel and oil treatment, but I'm still not convinced.

[NTECUK]

Not had one that worked to disperse water in the Tank.
The One we use at work does improve carbon build up on petrol systems.
A diffrent formuler Works wonders in diesel's.

[Spank86]

If you're trying to get water out of a tank of fuel, I'd say get the fuel out too and buy some more.

[speedyandypandy]

I don't have trouble with water, it's just a thought if it acctually works.
So if you're on a long roadtrip you can have a small bottle of fueltreatment under the pillion seat next to the bottle(s) of oil and chain spray, and call yourself Justin Case :rolleyes:
On the other end of the scale some high performance tuning does use water injection to make an engine run cleaner and cooler, it also does something with the detonation if your your running high comp, think it also helps against knock if you run high octane can't remember all the details, maybe I'll get around to searching it up again.

[NTECUK]

"Water Bome"Helps cool the induction charge.So helps with detonation.
Old Vauxhall Manta Couretny turbo used that system.
Most cars now use big intercoolers and engine managment .
The water vapour also slows the spped of the flame front helping detination and Nox emmisions.

[embee]

Never use any aftermarket OIL additives. Use a decent oil in the first place and it will have all the additives you need. Some of the snake-oil additives are positively nasty (those consisting of principally chlorinated paraffins, very impressive anti-scuff demonstrations but turn into hydrochloric acid when heated in an engine, 1930's technology abandoned by the industry. Very cheap to make so attractive to flog).

Fuel additives can sometimes be a help in certain circumstances. IPA will help to keep water contamination from messing everything up (but won't solve everything!), but you shouldn't be getting the water there in the first place, so sort out the real problem first.

[tigersaw]

Why would you put India pale ale into your engine?

[Bibio]

think what your on about is dry fuel treatment. http://www.halfords.com/webapp/wcs/stores/servlet/product_storeId_10001_catalogId_10151_productId_19 3117_langId_-1_categoryId_255221

[NTECUK]

IPA Cleans ua windows just great :)

[speedyandypandy]

think what your on about is dry fuel treatment. http://www.halfords.com/webapp/wcs/stores/servlet/product_storeId_10001_catalogId_10151_productId_19 3117_langId_-1_categoryId_255221

Maybe, found a description of this thing the 'car' people is on about.



Water scavengers permanently solubilize and micronize water into fuel by creating a hydrogen bond between water molecules and fuel molecules, thus converting water from a potential fuel system “problem” into a “combustion improver” by squelching hot spots in the combustion chamber. Contains no alcohol or methanol.

Read the rest here http://www.qmimo.com/products/1.-QMI-Fuel-Treatment-.html

[Biker Biggles]

We used to put a bit of meths in the petrol to "dry" it.I think it just causes any water to mix fully with the petrol so it gets burnt off rather than sinks to the bottom of the tank or carbs.

[monkey]

Why don't you ask what people are using in the threads where they said they're great?

[speedyandypandy]

Because I could do with more than just one persons opinion, and I trust fellow bike people more than the ones with trainingwheels on. And someone posting with 3-6 posts in a car forum, could even be the seller, you never know, so I tend to ask questions more than one place, but it won't be on a car forum.

[yorkie_chris]

Possibly worth a look when you've a puddle in the carbs. Badly contaminated fuel though you'd probably need to add enough alcohol that it would screw with the jetting and such.

Maybe worth it as a just in case if you get stranded, get you to next petrol station where you ditch it and get some more.

I'd suggest a bowl/water trap type filter with a drain like on a boat would be better.

[85jas]

Water scavengers permanently solubilize and micronize water into fuel by creating a hydrogen bond between water molecules and fuel molecules...

:smt104

Wow. I have never heard such a crock o' doodoo in my life... I'm a chemist and there is no damn way that you can hydrogen bond water (to any useful extent) to non polar organics (petrol, diesel, parrafin etc). This is why water and oil/fuel don't mix! No disrespect to you AT ALL speedy :) This is just a classic case of put some science stuff on the bottle and Joe Public will buy it. That product, like the Halford's stuff, will likely be a simple surfactant to disperse the water. Sorry for the outburst, this sort of stuff really grinds my gears ;)

As others have suggested some IPA (maybe half a cup, 100mL or so?) will dissolve water in fuel to a degree, meths (methanol) would work but you have the problem of methanol's incompatibility with the sorts of plastics often used in fuel systems causing swelling of tubing, seals etc. if used regularly or left in the tank.

Another solution (or a preventative / long term measure) could be to use a package of silica gel desiccant in the tank (say 250g) and a bit of wire to fish it out periodically... I've not heard of this being done but often mused about it! Silica gel is essentially harmless, won't react with fuel in any way and absorbs something like half again it's own mass in water and can be dried in an oven above 150C. After letting the fuel evaporate of course! Woomph... :smt051 You can even buy indicating varieties which change colour when saturated. Amazing.

Possibly worth a look when you've a puddle in the carbs. Badly contaminated fuel though you'd probably need to add enough alcohol that it would screw with the jetting and such.
+1, from experience you'd need an awful lot of alcohol too - the petrol will solubilise the alcohol and kick the water right back out of solution.

[speedyandypandy]

This is the kind of answer I was looking for, thank you 85jas.
Knew there had to be a chemist hiding on this forum somewhere.

[yorkie_chris]

+1, from experience you'd need an awful lot of alcohol too - the petrol will solubilise the alcohol and kick the water right back out of solution.

I thought the alcohol being soluble with water AND petrol meant it allowed the 3 substances to mix thoroughly. Is this not the case?

So when IPA or something gets rid of water, is the water/IPA mix simply thin enough a fluid to get burnt as it is and never mix with the fuel?

[85jas]

I thought the alcohol being soluble with water AND petrol meant it allowed the 3 substances to mix thoroughly. Is this not the case?

You're right that is definitely the case, but it's all about ratios - making up some numbers for a second if there's only say 10mL of water in 10L of petrol and you chuck in 100mL of IPA then you'll get a nice clear solution... but if there's 200mL of water in the tank and you put in 100mL of IPA then only some of that water will be solubilised, the rest will remain as a seperate layer. Some solvent systems (i.e. water/IPA) are fully miscible all the way through the mixture but many aren't.

e.g. Here is the ternary phase diagram for water / IPA / benzene mixtures.
http://forums.sv650.org/picture.php?albumid=1005&pictureid=6454
It may look a bit complex but, just looking at the triangular diagram there is a bold line looping across the bottom. Below this line two layers (phases) form, above there is only one. For example point X is 25% benzene, 50% IPA and 25% water, that's a solution. Point Y is 50% benzene, 25% IPA and 25% water and that's not (two separate layers). Benzene is pretty good at taking up water compared to petrol (which does include benzene but is mostly other stuff) so for petrol that phase line will be considerably 'higher' in the diagram, i.e. less water is required to form a separate phase. If you had a diagram of say benzene, parrafin and IPA there would be no line as they all mix together in any proportion.

(I did look but couldn't find an IPA / water / VPower phase diagram :mrgreen: )

Goes back to what you were saying about the jetting, if there's a lot of water (say 5%) you'd have to use so much IPA that it'd probably definitely throw out the fueling!


So when IPA or something gets rid of water, is the water/IPA mix simply thin enough a fluid to get burnt as it is and never mix with the fuel?
It doesn't really get rid of it, just allows the water to mix fully with the fuel (more than would normally dissolve in neat fuel) i.e. no bottom layer of water in the tank / carbs!

This is the kind of answer I was looking for, thank you 85jas.
Knew there had to be a chemist hiding on this forum somewhere.
Lurking about waiting to pounce on bad labelling ;) You're welcome.

I hope the above makes sense [-o< ;)

[yorkie_chris]

It doesn't really get rid of it, just allows the water to mix fully with the fuel (more than would normally dissolve in neat fuel) i.e. no bottom layer of water in the tank / carbs!

Ok it lets it mix and the big noisy metal thing underneath spits it out the back :-P


Problem I have is on an XJ900, the bottom of the tank is below the fuel pickup (duh!), so water that gets in there by condensation stays in there and rots the tank out!

A small dose of IPA every few tanks to let this burn off seems like just the ticket.

[Spank86]

Have you considered turning the bike upside-down and shaking it instead?

[yorkie_chris]

I did that with the SV and it hurt quite a lot.

Also with the XJ there's the spigot thing on the filler cap which leads this to be ineffective :-P

[johnnyrod]

The stuff in the link looks more like a detergent (dispersant) than a co-solvent (like IPA) from the amounts and the way they say you can use it in diesel or gasoline (in between the pseudo-science, or BS as it's also known). Waste of time as already said. There isn't really much you can do to the fuel to make it "better".

[85jas]

Waste of time as already said. There isn't really much you can do to the fuel to make it "better".
Zacly. Fuel formulations are pretty incredible these days, difficult for us mere mortals to improve it!!!


Problem I have is on an XJ900, the bottom of the tank is below the fuel pickup (duh!), so water that gets in there by condensation stays in there and rots the tank out!

A small dose of IPA every few tanks to let this burn off seems like just the ticket.
Sounds like a good plan... I just bought some silica gel (http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/SILICA-GEL-COLOUR-CHANGE-FOR-GENERAL-USE-ETC-80gm-BAG-/280910503979?pt=UK_Packaging_Materials&hash=item416792202b) off fleabay - I'm going to put it in a cotton bag tied with string and leave it in the tank, see how long it takes to hydrate fully. Might be a good solution for the condensation YC, I'll report back :)

[speedyandypandy]

The stuff in the link looks more like a detergent (dispersant) than a co-solvent (like IPA) from the amounts and the way they say you can use it in diesel or gasoline (in between the pseudo-science, or BS as it's also known). Waste of time as already said. There isn't really much you can do to the fuel to make it "better".
Apperently not if it's water in fuel, but there is a unofficial test that supports 2stroke oil in diesel, mix ratio 1:200, which is a better addetive than any off the "super" diesels you can buy at the petrol station. Takes down soot, brings up mile pr liter, and is just overall good.
Maybe our resident chemist can fill in the gaps :-D
Over to 85jas...

Maybe silica gel is your next project yc?

[Spank86]

Sounds like a good plan... I just bought some silica gel (http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/SILICA-GEL-COLOUR-CHANGE-FOR-GENERAL-USE-ETC-80gm-BAG-/280910503979?pt=UK_Packaging_Materials&hash=item416792202b) off fleabay - I'm going to put it in a cotton bag tied with string and leave it in the tank, see how long it takes to hydrate fully. Might be a good solution for the condensation YC, I'll report back :)

Come meet the GM at loomies some time, I can let you have some colour changing stuff for free if I know in advance.

[speedyandypandy]

Come meet the GM at loomies some time, I can let you have some colour changing stuff for free if I know in advance.
Sound like you're dealing, "First time is free for the colour changing stuff"

[Spank86]

Nah, I've got a load from work but hardly ever use it.

Gave fallout some when he was trying to dry out an old car.

[johnnyrod]

Apperently not if it's water in fuel, but there is a unofficial test that supports 2stroke oil in diesel, mix ratio 1:200, which is a better addetive than any off the "super" diesels you can buy at the petrol station. Takes down soot, brings up mile pr liter, and is just overall good.
Maybe our resident chemist can fill in the gaps :-D
Over to 85jas...

Maybe silica gel is your next project yc?

There's a lot of anecdotal "information" around. If you want to just read that instead of reading actual answers then go for it. If it were that easy don't you think someone in petrochem would have noticed?

[yorkie_chris]

I read that pump (ultra low sulfur) diesel is a p*ss poor lubricator compared to ye olde diesel due to environmental concerns leading to less and less heavy oil fractions and sulfur in there.

I wouldn't be surprised to find some truth in it.

[Spank86]

Dont know about ultra low sulphur but that was certainly true about the switch from leaded to unleaded petrol.

[85jas]

Apperently not if it's water in fuel, but there is a unofficial test that supports 2stroke oil in diesel, mix ratio 1:200, which is a better addetive than any off the "super" diesels you can buy at the petrol station. Takes down soot, brings up mile pr liter, and is just overall good.
It's quite possible wrt. the 2 stroke oil, though one would of course have to do some propa thiense thtuff to find out :) At the end of the day though more lubrication is never a bad thing... but increased mpg? Not so sure...

Got a DERV andy? Could always experiment :) Though for the price of 2 stroke oil... :O

I read that pump (ultra low sulfur) diesel is a p*ss poor lubricator compared to ye olde diesel due to environmental concerns leading to less and less heavy oil fractions and sulfur in there.
Somewhat OT, the sulfur compounds in gearbox oil which help prevent damage under extreme shock-loading conditions are very similar to what is found in the old-skool diesel distillates - probably how they found them. Those compunds being the reason that old g/box oil is probably the unholiest smelling liquid on earth.

So maybe 200:1 gearbox oil in diesel will keep your DERV running for ever?!?

Come meet the GM at loomies some time, I can let you have some colour changing stuff for free if I know in advance.
Thanks spank - already bought it though :) We have loads in the lab too but it's all used and I hate to think what might be in it now :O

[yorkie_chris]

Those compunds being the reason that old g/box oil is probably the unholiest smelling liquid on earth.


I thought so too, until I had to strip a chuck and cylinder off a lathe after a few thousand hours turning cast iron.
Yeurgh.

[barwel1992]

I thought so too, until I had to strip a chuck and cylinder off a lathe after a few thousand hours turning cast iron.
Yeurgh.

Ohh the lovely smell of Q8 coolant that's gone "off" blughh I had to fix the pump on our 30 year old lathe was minging ! Race car gear box oil smells gross as well

[yorkie_chris]

Coolant isn't bad even with the bacterial growth in it, it's the sulfur in cast iron that's the 'orrible stuff. Machining it the swarf is very fine dust too, so everything gets crammed with a thick, black, stinking paste. Look like you've been down't pit after 5 minutes!

[speedyandypandy]

Diesel might be a bit away from SV talk, but what the heck, we're solving world problems.

There seems to be more people for than against, here is a few threads
http://www.dieselbombers.com/alternative-fuels-additives-fluids/953-2-stroke-oil-thread.html
http://forums.dieselpowermag.com/70/6351137/dieselpowermagcom-suggestions-comments/2-stroke-oil-added-to-fuel-this-needs-to-be-a-stor/

[johnnyrod]

It's conspiracy theory by another name, seen the like before