View Full Version : Handling Query SV1000 K3-N
I'm looking for anyone who really knows their way around handling issues. Before I go spending out on forks and shock service/replacements just want to make sure I'm not missing out anything simple.
K3 SV1000N
42k miles
New Michelin PR3's front and back
Original suspension
14 Stone Rider
Issue 1:- Sorted
Was falling into high speed bends. Corrected that with a new front tyre. The PR2 had worn to a v-shape and so messed everything up. Prior to that I'd been generally messing with the compression and rebound damping on the rear shock to the point it became pretty much unrideable at speed! New rubber + defaulted rear shock, ended up with slight damping adjustments but much much better than before.
Issue 2:- Need help.
When powering through a bend it feels like the back is coming around. Now we're not on hard enough to be spinning up or over far enough to be running out of tyre (not entirely sure you can even run out of tyre these days) but it's just a bit unsettling. Feels like a softer version of the feeling you get when the rear spins up on a bend but without the high-side kick you usually get at the end.
I've dropped the rear tyre pressure a tad which has improved it slightly. Was running 42r/36f but now back to 36/36 under recommendation from Michelin. Dropping the rear a bit has possibly improved it slightly but hard to tell.
So. Symptom is rear feels like it's coming round on you in hardish cornering. Does this sound like a bit of rear damping adjustment, front damping adjustment, swing-arm bearings, or do I need to accept that after >40k miles I need to spend some money on getting the suspension serviced. Not entirely sure the standard thou rear shock can be serviced anyway and replacement is not cheap unless I go shoving a GSX-r unit in there but then I'm into batterybox mods etc which I really don't want to get into.
Limited time/budget/skills. Where would you start?
when you say "coming round" does it feel unsettled, or is it actually sliding?
Jambo
Initially that sounds to me that your rear compression or rebound damping (or both) is set too stiff. You probably do also have a tired shock after high mileage when compared to a new one which wont necessarily help.
First thing I would do before spending anything is to go through setting up the proper amount of sag on both front and rear. Adjust the damping to the default settings provided by Suzuki and start from there.
When were the forks last serviced with fluid replacement?
when you say "coming round" does it feel unsettled, or is it actually sliding?
Jambo
Not entirely sure how you'd tell.
No chewing up of the tyre rubber on the edges but all the roads round here are not the sort you can see if you've left black marks on.
It's not super-moto style it's pretty subtle. Was noticed by someone else when we swapped bikes but that may be because I asked him to look out for it.
First thing I would do before spending anything is to go through setting up the proper amount of sag on both front and rear. Adjust the damping to the default settings provided by Suzuki and start from there.
Yep- Done that. Sag probably not spot on as had no helper but not miles out. In fact still got the cable tie on the front fork
When were the forks last serviced with fluid replacement? Probably the day it left the factory. I've certainly never done it and I've had it for the last 20k miles. I suspect it needs new oil at the very least. Just trying to work out if I fancy giving that a go DIY or send the forks off or send the bike off. I've now got a headstock lift but not sure if I need to order some more talent first.
Start with flymo's advice.
I'd also say that at 42,000 miles the chances that the original shock is still doing its thing as intended are not great. I'd have a quick call to k-tech, and kais suspension to see what either company would quote for a rebuild in terms of time and money. I've had good work done from both of them in the past. Any replacement shock on ebay will be of completely unknown condition, so I prefer to have them rebuilt if possible.
Jambo
The fork fluid will be like dish water after mileage like that. If you are considering keeping the bike longer term and have a budget to spend then put the forks through a full service and replace the shock with a good aftermarket item like a Nitron (good price from sv650_racer at Steve Jordans). The bike will ride like brand new for around £400.
I'm assuming that you dont have any other distractions such as a loose headstock or play in the swing arm bearings etc. Hopefully these would have been discovered during an MOT but you never know.
Start with flymo's advice.
I'd also say that at 42,000 miles the chances that the original shock is still doing its thing as intended are not great. I'd have a quick call to k-tech, and kais suspension to see what either company would quote for a rebuild in terms of time and money. I've had good work done from both of them in the past. Any replacement shock on ebay will be of completely unknown condition, so I prefer to have them rebuilt if possible.
Jambo
Doubtless about to get massively flamed for this but I was talking to a suspension guru a few years ago about the standard GSX-R mod and his advice was not to do it. He said that although it will feel great initially they are not designed to take the heat you get from the rear exhaust of the SV so they tend to degrade real fast so his recommendation was to get something designed for a v-twin rather than something designed to run cooler.
He gave mine a good twiddling a fair few yeas ago which transformed it over how it was set when I got it but at the time he said the pre-load was pretty much spot-on both ends and it just needed some damping adjustments. I've not touched the front since but the rear's been all over the place but has since been pretty much put back to where he had it with just a bit less damping as it kept leaping off bumps and spinning up too easy.
I would agree on the heat degradation, I used copious amounts of exhaust heat wrapping and during racing obviously limited my riding to short bursts of activity of 20 mins or so.
If it were me I would skip the experimental stage and just do it properly.
Doubtless about to get massively flamed for this but I was talking to a suspension guru a few years ago about the standard GSX-R mod and his advice was not to do it. He said that although it will feel great initially they are not designed to take the heat you get from the rear exhaust of the SV so they tend to degrade real fast so his recommendation was to get something designed for a v-twin rather than something designed to run cooler.
He gave mine a good twiddling a fair few yeas ago which transformed it over how it was set when I got it but at the time he said the pre-load was pretty much spot-on both ends and it just needed some damping adjustments. I've not touched the front since but the rear's been all over the place but has since been pretty much put back to where he had it with just a bit less damping as it kept leaping off bumps and spinning up too easy.
I was talking about having your SV Thou shock rebuilt by one of those 2 companies, should be about £100-ish pounds and it'll be the same shock, but as it was when it was new.
With the fork oil being 20-40,000 miles old I'd do that as well :)
Jambo
Edit, I've re-read my statement and can see where the confusion's come from, what I was saying was not to just buy a 2nd hand shock from another bike from ebay as you've no way of telling how old that is in terms of miles :)
Thanks for the advice chaps.
I'm assuming that you dont have any other distractions such as a loose headstock or play in the swing arm bearings etc. Hopefully these would have been discovered during an MOT but you never know.
Was recently MOT'd and the tester said all good. How do you check swing-arm bearing. Do I just pop it on the abba and feel for lateral play and general nastiness? Anything specific to feel for? Taking it off to check looks like a bit of a major undertaking.
Thanks for the advice chaps.
Was recently MOT'd and the tester said all good. How do you check swing-arm bearing. Do I just pop it on the abba and feel for lateral play and general nastiness? Anything specific to feel for? Taking it off to check looks like a bit of a major undertaking.
Yeah, abba stand kind of thing was what I meant. Holding the bike with an abba stand may actually mask a little play but its a good start. Its not unusual to find a small amount of side to side movement but really there shouldnt be any if its in good condition. If its excessive then there is certainly some room for nervous handling. Look for lateral and side to side movement by gently trying to move the swing arm side on. You could also check for any wheel bearing play while you are there.
Yeah, abba stand kind of thing was what I meant. Holding the bike with an abba stand may actually mask a little play but its a good start. Its not unusual to find a small amount of side to side movement but really there shouldnt be any if its in good condition. If its excessive then there is certainly some room for nervous handling. Look for lateral and side to side movement by gently trying to move the swing arm side on. You could also check for any wheel bearing play while you are there.
I've replaced the wheel bearings a while back so they should be OK. Will give my swingarm a waggle later and see what I find. However I'm off for a ride Saturday so maybe best check when I get back instead in case I find something nasty that may put me off!
Maybe just give the whole rear-end a spray in WD40 as that is recommended to fix just about anything. (Only joking - although nobody has suggested a new reg/rec yet which is unusual)
Hows the wear pattern on the tyre?
Its likely to give you a good insight to how the damping is coping.
When you say "feels like the back is coming round" is opening it up tightening your line through the bend?
Just have a look if you have stepping or tearing of the tread .
Sid Squid
07-09-12, 10:22 AM
As Flymo says; very possibly too much rear compression.
Mine's the same - if the suspension is tweaked for two-up, it has exactly the same rear nervousness on throttle mid corner when on your own.
As Flymo says; very possibly too much rear compression.
Mine's the same - if the suspension is tweaked for two-up, it has exactly the same rear nervousness on throttle mid corner when on your own.
So back off compression damping a touch or compression AND rebound? They are currently both about 3/4 turn out from factory.
yorkie_chris
07-09-12, 12:13 PM
You can gt that feeling from too much rebound, it packs down and feels like it is skittering out.
And from too little, it will weave and wag and be unsettled.
And from too much comp, if it is bouncing off bump not reacting to them.
Find a really nice smooth corner, try it a few times adding rebound see if it gets better first.
After that mileage fork and shock oil will be like water. Change them. Shock should be rebuildable if it has reservoir.
I did couple of shock mods on my SV then bought new penske. If I had time again I would have bought penske before I even put slip-on can on it was that good.
I would get penske. They are a long term investment because they're dead easy to rebuild, the factory and UK agent are very open about parts, setups etc. You can easily and cheaply reconfigure to make it right for whatever bike you get next too.
You want to do same with ohlins they will laugh at you, not sure about nitron yet but will find out soon enough :)
Doubtless about to get massively flamed for this but I was talking to a suspension guru a few years ago about the standard GSX-R mod and his advice was not to do it. He said that although it will feel great initially they are not designed to take the heat you get from the rear exhaust of the SV so they tend to degrade real fast so his recommendation was to get something designed for a v-twin rather than something designed to run cooler.
So what's difference with a V twin shock then :smt082
So what's difference with a V twin shock then :smt082
:-) one that's constructed so that its res isn't sitting right next to the rear exhaust downpipe.
yorkie_chris
07-09-12, 12:21 PM
:-) one that's constructed so that its res isn't sitting right next to the rear exhaust downpipe.
So the SV1000 one is out then?
Even if you had remote res, I don't think res is any particular culprit or solution to heat transfer.
I'm also not convinced the slightly higher operating temp will make oil age appreciably quicker compared to normal fluid shear and contamination. Lets face it after 40,000 miles any oil regardless of downpipe position is going to be a bit watery!
given the choice, I think fairly likely that moving the res away from the 'zaust (or wrapping the pipe) is better for the suspension operation than not doing anything. But I agree, I don't think its a disaster on a typical road bike. The high mileage fluid will be like pi$$ anyway as you say.
I must admit though, the SV1000 motor does kick out some serious heat at times, much more so than the 650 in my experience.
yorkie_chris
07-09-12, 12:34 PM
Yeah that appalling amount of petrol must be going somewhere!
it certainly came in handy for the freezing ride home from Kelsall the other night
at that mileage and as said before get the front and back serviced as both will be way tired as the oil will be like water and the valving will be crudded up. would you go 40k with the same engine oil?
i have a GSXR front end that was serviced when i put the bike on the road at 1k and brand new nitron shock at the same time, bike has only done 14k and i can feel them needing a service. biggest thing you will notice is that the clickers don't seem to be doing much and the bike is unsettled.
dampening is the art of controlling the spring. rebound is to control the spring in a downwards motion and compression is to control the spring in an upwards motion, hard = slow and soft = fast reaction of the spring and the oil is there to make the valves/orifices work by going threw at a certain rate which is gauged by the weight of the oil. if the oil is thin it will flow fast and if thick will flow slow threw the valves/orifices. springs are there to take the weight of the bike and rider but allow the wheel to move to take up irregularities in road surfaces and chassis movement.
clickers:
rebound = chassis movement. if to slow (hard) the rear/front will pack down, to fast (soft) and the rear/front will rise past its 'rest' state.
compression (slow) = chassis movement. if to slow (hard) the rear/front will compress to slow and dig the tyre in, if to fast (soft) and the front will dive to much under braking and the rear will bounce and skip.
compression (fast) = sudden bumps. if to hard (slow) the the wheel will rise over bumps. to soft (fast) it will skip.
ride hight is there to allow your suspension enough travel in either direction. to little ride hight will let your bike top out and to much will let it bottom out. this is why getting the right weight spring for you and your bike is more important than people think.
suspension is a compromise as every road/track is different so needs different settings then factor in cold and hot oil (cold oil flows slower than hot) and its a minefield so always adjust your suspension hot. your tyres are the best indicator of how well your suspension is set. learn to read your tyres and it's 3/4 of the battle.
on sundays i can feel my suspension warm up after about 3 miles and at around 5 its pretty much ready for the days fun. when its cold the bike is a bit skitterish after about 3 it starts to settle and at around 5 its nice and compliant and doing its stuff.
but as always i talk BS so do what you want :-)
So what's difference with a V twin shock then :smt082
No idea but as it was Mark Hammond who told me ( www.mhracing.com ) I'm rather inclined to accept his point of view on all things springy given it's what he does for a living.
yorkie_chris
07-09-12, 01:47 PM
No idea but as it was Mark Hammond who told me ( www.mhracing.com (http://www.mhracing.com) ) I'm rather inclined to accept his point of view on all things springy given it's what he does for a living.
So the facts of the type of oil inside the shock, surface finish of parts, position of reservoir etc when compared to non-V-twin shocks wouldn't be of any interest to you then? :confused:
Given that all shocks must dissipate heat, if there was some technology* that made shocks more consistent, do you not think that the OEM's would apply this to their flagship, top of the range sportsbikes?
*Like some sort of oil that was more temperature consistent, or shot blasting the shock body for better heat transfer.
So the facts of the type of oil inside the shock, surface finish of parts, position of reservoir etc when compared to non-V-twin shocks wouldn't be of any interest to you then? :confused:
Yes, I am becoming more interested. However at the time, about 4 years ago, my question was "Should I consider sticking something like a GSX-R shock on this or not" to which he replied along the lines of my original post that given the proximity of the SV shock to the rear exhaust port you're better getting one designed for the job etc etc etc
If I were a professional motorcycle expert I may well have grilled him further; however I just wanted a yes/no answer and that's what I got. Had we got into a heated debate about the best sort of replication for a multi-region SAN for a bank then I may well have got in deeper with him AND understood the details of his response.
Not saying the details are not important or anything just saying that someone whose opinion I (and many others) trust said a shock not designed to sit there would not operate as well as one that was.
No intention of getting into a bun-fight about it as this thread has proved incredibly useful and seems to have attracted genuinely knowledgeable responses rather than the google cut-paste that can sometimes appear.
Looks like my plan is :-
- Save money for fork/shock service
- Check swing-arm for play
- Consider backing off compression and rebound damping a touch on the rear but don't expect miracles until some fresh oil finds its way into the springy bits.
yorkie_chris
07-09-12, 02:56 PM
My first suspicion would be more rebound actually so be prepared to play around.
Remember if you have rough bearings adding loads of friction then forget it, it won't handle right if the back end's seized up whatever you twiddle!
as yc says make sure that nothing is seized, rough or loose in the suspension linkages and your headstock bearings are in good order with no roughness, notching or clicking.
i would also try a bounce test. start by turning the compression all the way to 'soft' then add a little. don't force the adjuster hard down when you turn it all the way.
bounce the front and watch for the yoke going past the rest state if id does then more rebound if not and it comes up slow then less rebound, same goes for rear. your looking to set the rebound just enough for it to return to rest and not rise above it or if it does then very little. so when you bounce the bike should go down then come up and stay there or rise a tiny tiny bit and the back down to rest you don't want it going down then up then down again.
compression is a bit more difficult as your wanting it to be compliment enough for the wheels to move without transferring threw the chassis but not wallow for being to soft and usually requires riding the bike.
your trying to keep the bike as stable as possible and let the suspension do the work it was designed for.
So the SV1000 one is out then?
Yep, I'd better chuck the one on my RSV away as well.
yorkie_chris
07-09-12, 04:08 PM
No intention of getting into a bun-fight about it
Me neither, but there is a lot of dogma about suspension and anything else technical that has started out from somebody saying something that might have had a point, which gets misconstrued, repeated... and before you know it is common knowledge despite being a chinese whisper!
That's why I'm finicky about stuff like that :)
Plus it's not really that complex and pretty interesting stuff.
Luckily I'm not a google regurgitator so not the type to leap on every shock replacement post that pops up and shout down any shock not pre-loaded with unicorn blood etc.
Anyhoo off to waggle my swing arm and start getting quotes for shock and fork servicing. Maybe Jordans can do me a deal in return for a good write-up in here :)
Oh and now seems like I back off compression and wind in rebound
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