View Full Version : 9/11 Discussion Thread - Split from 9/11 respect thread
Am I the only on that can't stand this being brought up each year?
Do you think the Americans would give a flying fig if had happened anywhere else, to anyone else?
And because of this event *hundreds of thousands* of innocent people have died outside of America but you never hear the same "God bless them" crap for them.
Sorry but while being initially tragic, the whole 9/11 thing just grates on me.
Let it fade away. I don't want to see this guff every year.
C
Milky Bar Kid
11-09-12, 03:27 PM
Am I the only on that can't stand this being brought up each year?
Do you think the Americans would give a flying fig if had happened anywhere else, to anyone else?
And because of this event *hundreds of thousands* of innocent people have died outside of America but you never hear the same "God bless them" crap for them.
Sorry but while being initially tragic, the whole 9/11 thing just grates on me.
Let it fade away. I don't want to see this guff every year.
C
I don't give a toss whether or not you want to see it!!
At the end of the day, innocent people, of all walks of life died. I don't disagree with you about the other innocents that died as a result of the "war on terror" but that post is a bit harsh and a bit callous IMO.
Aa spidey said - if you don't like the thread title, don't read it.
Small Clanger
11-09-12, 04:06 PM
[QUOTE=Berlin;2769864]
Do you think the Americans would give a flying fig if had happened anywhere else, to anyone else?
They certainly cared enough to help during The Great War and The Second World War when the evil emanating from Berlin was the threat, Berlin.
Berlin - I agree with you.
Whilst it is worth remembering any innocent person person who has been caught up in someone else's fight, it does grate on my nerves somewhat, that this particular tragedy is singled out for special remembrance every year.
I know that it's dreadful for those who were killed in the blasts, and for their families and loved ones. As it is also for the people, paid or volunteer, who may suffer as a result of giving thier help.
But so is it also for the hundreds, from this country and others, who has suffered and/or died as a result of the American government's reaction to it all.
I don't think it is our place to have special remembrance for those in an American tragedy - just a general remembrance for all those who lose their lives or health in innocence
[QUOTE=Berlin;2769864]
They certainly cared enough to help during The Great War and The Second World War when the evil emanating from Berlin was the threat, Berlin.
No they bloody didn't! They were dragged extremely reluctantly into the second world war due to the Japanese attacking Pearl Harbour! :-) TWO years after the war started!
I don't commemorate 11/11 or the Hillsboro events or the 7/7 events. I don't commemorate openly, any dead.
They are in the past. Having lived in various countries where the past is an embarrassment, (China, Japan, Germany) I find the way they deal with it as an unspoken-of respect to be far more civilised way of doing things.
But then I've never been one for getting all gooey eyed for folks I don't know.
Oh, and quite frankly, I couldn't care one jot if me not towing the popularist line upsets of offends anyone. Free thinking and all that.
C
gruntygiggles
11-09-12, 11:35 PM
[QUOTE=Small Clanger;2769888]
I don't commemorate 11/11 or the Hillsboro events or the 7/7 events. I don't commemorate openly, any dead.
They are in the past. Having lived in various countries where the past is an embarrassment, (China, Japan, Germany) I find the way they deal with it as an unspoken-of respect to be far more civilised way of doing things.
C
This point may be valid were it not for the fact that the nations you speak of are those who were, in their time, the perpetrators of evil! Of course they don't remember in the same way. The silence is not from embarrassment any more than the people of Bristol feel guilty about the history of slave trading...the silence comes from a desire not to offend those nations who lost so many while fighting for the good. We could all learn something from that.
This forum loves debate, we all know that, but I find it slightly disappointing that people wanting to make a point on this do it by derailing a thread where the intentions are purely honourable.
If you want to make a point about not remembering or why you don't like these threads, please start a new thread and leave this one to those who simply want to pay their respects.
Before you type your thoughts on things like this...ask yourself is your opinion and the sharing of it going to do any good other than to satisfy your need to be heard. If the answer is no...save yourself the effort.
with respect, if I were derailing this thread I'd talk about pigeons doing ballet.
My post is on point and is of a different point of view on the same thing. Feel free to disagree with anything I say. I respect your right to say it.
If one were to start a post with a different point of view on each thread there's be a an "I love..." and "I hate..." for everything. And that would polarise a very balanced Forum.
I'll let those who want to remember remember now.. Me? I'm going fishing with Pigeons doing ballet..
C
BanannaMan
12-09-12, 04:45 AM
[QUOTE=Small Clanger;2769888]
No they bloody didn't! They were dragged extremely reluctantly into the second world war due to the Japanese attacking Pearl Harbour! :-) TWO years after the war started!
I don't commemorate 11/11 or the Hillsboro events or the 7/7 events. I don't commemorate openly, any dead.
They are in the past. Having lived in various countries where the past is an embarrassment, (China, Japan, Germany) I find the way they deal with it as an unspoken-of respect to be far more civilised way of doing things.
But then I've never been one for getting all gooey eyed for folks I don't know.
Oh, and quite frankly, I couldn't care one jot if me not towing the popularist line upsets of offends anyone. Free thinking and all that.
C
No matter where in the world it is, no matter what it is, no matter if it falls into line with your beliefs,
If people are paying their respects to whomever or whatever and you interupt to say you have no respect for whatever,
that's considered being an ********.
If you have no respect for others, you could at least have some for yourself.
Your crap comment on WWII I'll put down as anti-American sentiment.
Surely you can't be that ignorant of history.
I won't go into all the supplies we sent you on passenger ships the first two years untill the Germans gave up protesting and started sinking them.
Or that America knew there would be an attack from the Japanese and allowed itself to be drawn into the war. (was much more devastating than the naval battle they were expecting) Note it was the fight with the Germans, not revenge on the Japanese that was always the first priority.
Or how the local soldiers from where I live were the soldiers who landed on Omaha Beach on D- Day and there was nothing reluctant about how they fought and died that day.
But I expect you to have no more respect for that than you do 9/11 or Lockerbie, or 7/7 or anything else.
Specialone
12-09-12, 05:52 AM
They are in the past. Having lived in various countries where the past is an embarrassment, (China, Japan, Germany) I find the way they deal with it as an unspoken-of respect to be far more civilised way of doing things.
C
That's because they LOST!!!
I'm certain if they had won a major war they would celebrate their fallen instead of being embarrassed about them.
I'm sure the guys who laid down their lives back then for your freedom would be so greatful for your continued respect and rememberance.
There definitely seems to be an anti American tone in your posts, while some of them can be annoying at times, simple facts are we would've been massively under resourced in ww2 without them and lost our fight as a result.
with respect, if I were derailing this thread I'd talk about pigeons doing ballet.
My post is on point and is of a different point of view on the same thing. Feel free to disagree with anything I say. I respect your right to say it.
If one were to start a post with a different point of view on each thread there's be a an "I love..." and "I hate..." for everything. And that would polarise a very balanced Forum.
I'll let those who want to remember remember now.. Me? I'm going fishing with Pigeons doing ballet..
C
The title of the thread is 9/11 RESEPECT! Not 9/11, let's have a debate about it.
I see no difference between what you've done and someone making a noise during the minute's silence on Rememberance Sunday. As GG said, start your own thread for the debate and leave the RESPECT thread alone.
Drew Carey
12-09-12, 07:19 AM
This is exactly the reason why I rarely come on here. If someone put's up a thread, why do people feel the need to go and slate it / call it "guff" etc. Someone puts up a RIP thread and it turns into a slagfest....wrong IMO. There are certain threads where people are perfectly fine to put up their views / have an argument - but not on a RIP / remembrance thread - irrespective of peoples views. You should respect the posters opinions and views by keeping TF away. If you don't like it.....don't bloody read the thing.
RIP to all those who lost their lives, I knew someone who was supposed to be in the towers that day and a family member lost his best friend in the towers.
gruntygiggles
12-09-12, 07:50 AM
with respect, if I were derailing this thread I'd talk about pigeons doing ballet.
My post is on point and is of a different point of view on the same thing. Feel free to disagree with anything I say. I respect your right to say it.
If one were to start a post with a different point of view on each thread there's be a an "I love..." and "I hate..." for everything. And that would polarise a very balanced Forum.
I'll let those who want to remember remember now.. Me? I'm going fishing with Pigeons doing ballet..
C
Well, the thread is to pay respects, not share your views on whether you want to or not... but if you feel we all need to hear your opinion on this while we go about paying our respects then so be it. Why should you care about interrupting others peaceful intentions?
How very good of you to let those of us who want to remember remember now.....we should forever be in your debt. :rolleyes:
yorkie_chris
12-09-12, 08:19 AM
That's because they LOST!!!
I'm certain if they had won a major war they would celebrate their fallen instead of being embarrassed about them.
Embarrassed about the past maybe, but not about the people.
Wars are started by politicians with no face saving options remaining, and by madmen with agendas, and by finance.
I was reading about the U boat men of WW2, there are a few shipwrecks I plan to dive, including U boats and ships sunk by them. They were still just young lads, not inherently evil. In the late war they went out despite near certainty of being killed. Win or lose I have a profound respect for them.
I was reading about the U boat men of WW2, there are a few shipwrecks I plan to dive, including U boats and ships sunk by them. They were still just young lads, not inherently evil. In the late war they went out despite near certainty of being killed. Win or lose I have a profound respect for them.
I agree. My father in law was stationed on HMS Duke of York when they chased down and sank the Scharnhorst. A little later they were sharing their rations with survivors that had been plucked from the freezing water.
I have the utmost respect for people who somehow became caught up in the effects of 9/11. I too was watching it live on TV when it was unfolding, very scary to experience.
Milky Bar Kid
12-09-12, 09:15 AM
Embarrassed about the past maybe, but not about the people.
Wars are started by politicians with no face saving options remaining, and by madmen with agendas, and by finance.
I was reading about the U boat men of WW2, there are a few shipwrecks I plan to dive, including U boats and ships sunk by them. They were still just young lads, not inherently evil. In the late war they went out despite near certainty of being killed. Win or lose I have a profound respect for them.
Totally agree.
To be honest, I am quite shocked this thread has been turned into this by one person slating other people's right to pay tribute to people who died! No matter what the cause of deaths were.
Like I said earlier, it's not your opinion people don' t like Berlin, it's your right to have that and I actually see why someone would have that opinion. That however, does not excuse you to call other peoples thoughts/prayers/respects flor the thousands of people who died "GUFF".
Spank86
12-09-12, 02:54 PM
well this thread is throroughly ruined.
I won't go into all the supplies we sent you on passenger ships the first two years untill the Germans gave up protesting and started sinking them.
Would they be the ones we only finshed paying for in 2006?
Specialone
12-09-12, 04:50 PM
Embarrassed about the past maybe, but not about the people.
Wars are started by politicians with no face saving options remaining, and by madmen with agendas, and by finance.
I was reading about the U boat men of WW2, there are a few shipwrecks I plan to dive, including U boats and ships sunk by them. They were still just young lads, not inherently evil. In the late war they went out despite near certainty of being killed. Win or lose I have a profound respect for them.
Actually ive watched many programs about war etc and you're right, there is a mutual respect very present in sailors and sub mariners who fought each other.
Dont know if its still there but there was german uboat that was raised and brought to liverpool docks, really wanted to see that as i watched a documentary about it.
Anyway...
Most people on the front line (with exception of war against terror) know their opponents are just following orders the same as them.
I still stand by my previous statement though, if germany and the japs had won, im sure they would celebrate their fallen differently, certainly in a more prominent way.
Nuff derailing for now.
widepants
12-09-12, 07:29 PM
I sometimes think the Dutch , Germans etc moved on from ther war alot quicker than we did . My ex's gran is Dutch and her family were in the resitance , Her grandad was a footsoldier in the German army . Didnt stop them seeing the person inside and not the flag
Spank86
12-09-12, 07:54 PM
The Dutch?
The people who wave banners during international football matches against the Germans saying "my granny wants her bike back"?
widepants
12-09-12, 08:26 PM
lmfao
Dont know if its still there but there was german uboat that was raised and brought to liverpool docks, really wanted to see that as i watched a documentary about it.
Yep, although its been removed into sections that you can now see inside. Its an exhibition at Woodside ferry terminal in Birkenhead. http://www.u-boatstory.co.uk/
Totally agree.
To be honest, I am quite shocked this thread has been turned into this by one person slating other people's right to pay tribute to people who died! No matter what the cause of deaths were.
Like I said earlier, it's not your opinion people don' t like Berlin, it's your right to have that and I actually see why someone would have that opinion. That however, does not excuse you to call other peoples thoughts/prayers/respects flor the thousands of people who died "GUFF".
Erm, my point was the respect goes to about 3000 people from several hundred thousand!
My Point was Respect them ALL, don't pick and choose.
and I'm sorry but I seem to have missed the list of thread "rules" where it says I'm not allowed an opinion on something in a free country.
This is exactly the way "free speech" is going now. Anyone who might have a slightly different point of views is at best shouted down by the masses or at worst, burn at the stake as a witch.. or 14 years old Christian Blasphemer!
Isn't that exactly why the war was fought? So people COULD have a different opinion?
I'm not saying anyone shouldn't/couldn't respect anyone. I'm not making noise in the two minute silence, I'm pointing out that everyone should be included, including the many, many times more that have died from (and especially since) the September 11th events than ever usually get mentioned. And at the moment it's growing by about 50 people a day. So in two months there'll be *another* full world trade centre of people have died in Iraq and Afghanistan, that no one is remembering, no one is respecting and no one is giving a **** about.
C
PS. We just finished paying off the war debt two years ago as a country. Thatcher mortgaged the North sea oil and gas fields to pay for it. which is why you're paying so much for fuel. So thanks for all that help America! You did it out of true altruism! And not to make money from an ally and to protect your own interests.
Spank86
13-09-12, 01:17 PM
Isn't that exactly why the war was fought? So people COULD have a different opinion?
Definitely not.
It was pretty much fought because one bunch of countries had the opinion that they wanted a lot of what another bunch of countries had siezed from a third bunch of countries.
(unless you mean a war other than ww2)
it's ok though Berlin they are only terrorists and as everybody knows we need to kill all the terrorists.
Spank86
13-09-12, 01:54 PM
Said the French in Spain circa 1800 and the Germans in France circa 1940...
gruntygiggles
13-09-12, 02:10 PM
Erm, my point was the respect goes to about 3000 people from several hundred thousand!
My Point was Respect them ALL, don't pick and choose.
and I'm sorry but I seem to have missed the list of thread "rules" where it says I'm not allowed an opinion on something in a free country.
This is exactly the way "free speech" is going now. Anyone who might have a slightly different point of views is at best shouted down by the masses or at worst, burn at the stake as a witch.. or 14 years old Christian Blasphemer!
Isn't that exactly why the war was fought? So people COULD have a different opinion?
I'm not saying anyone shouldn't/couldn't respect anyone. I'm not making noise in the two minute silence, I'm pointing out that everyone should be included, including the many, many times more that have died from (and especially since) the September 11th events than ever usually get mentioned. And at the moment it's growing by about 50 people a day. So in two months there'll be *another* full world trade centre of people have died in Iraq and Afghanistan, that no one is remembering, no one is respecting and no one is giving a **** about.
C
PS. We just finished paying off the war debt two years ago as a country. Thatcher mortgaged the North sea oil and gas fields to pay for it. which is why you're paying so much for fuel. So thanks for all that help America! You did it out of true altruism! And not to make money from an ally and to protect your own interests.
You say you are not making noise in the two minute silence, but actually, what you have done in this thread is exactly that. The thread is titled as a place of respect for those who lost their lives in this particular atrocity.
If you have a view or opinion about that, fine...no one is disputing your right to share those views or opinions, we are simply saying that it is extremely disrespectful to do that in a place reserved for the paying of respects.
You can go and make your opinions as loudly and clearly as you like in my thread if you want...that is not a place for the paying of respects.
To say that freedom of speech is what entitles you to share your opinion in this thread is a clear indicator that you put a very low value on the rights of others to do the same. An extreme double standard. What makes you so special that you get to tarnish the goodwill of a message by imposing your views when you could very easily have made them elsewhere, leaving this thread a place for those who actually want to pay respects.
Why bring America into it? Why bring other lost lives into it? Why bring politics into it?
Seriously, it is extremely immature and narrow minded to assume that others are being forgotten purely because time is set aside to remember certain people. It almost sounds like you are saying that by paying respects to those who fell on 9/11 means we don't care about those who fell afterwards or those who fell elsewhere or at different events. That is ignorance at its most offensive.
How dare you judge others like that.
You said, " that no one is remembering, no one is respecting and no one is giving a **** about."...
How the hell do you know? They might not be remembering them now, but that doesn't mean that they don't or won't remember them at another time or even at the same time, so this is a ridiculous argument.
Imagine an RIP thread for a lost friend. That thread has been posted to pay respects to one person. Does that mean that the poster or those paying respects are unable to also think of others that they have lost? No. They just don't make it public on the thread.
Does it mean that the posters on that thread are not respecting or giving a **** about others that have been lost? No, it doesn't.
It just means that the vast majority of people will put their own agenda aside to allow others to peacefully pay respects and be tolerant of their desire to do so.
Perhaps you could display a little more tolerance and respect for others and credit them with the ability to be able to respect everyone, whilst...on an anniversary, be public about the few.
Milky Bar Kid
13-09-12, 07:10 PM
Erm, my point was the respect goes to about 3000 people from several hundred thousand!
My Point was Respect them ALL, don't pick and choose.
and I'm sorry but I seem to have missed the list of thread "rules" where it says I'm not allowed an opinion on something in a free country.
This is exactly the way "free speech" is going now. Anyone who might have a slightly different point of views is at best shouted down by the masses or at worst, burn at the stake as a witch.. or 14 years old Christian Blasphemer!
Isn't that exactly why the war was fought? So people COULD have a different opinion?
I'm not saying anyone shouldn't/couldn't respect anyone. I'm not making noise in the two minute silence, I'm pointing out that everyone should be included, including the many, many times more that have died from (and especially since) the September 11th events than ever usually get mentioned. And at the moment it's growing by about 50 people a day. So in two months there'll be *another* full world trade centre of people have died in Iraq and Afghanistan, that no one is remembering, no one is respecting and no one is giving a **** about.
C
PS. We just finished paying off the war debt two years ago as a country. Thatcher mortgaged the North sea oil and gas fields to pay for it. which is why you're paying so much for fuel. So thanks for all that help America! You did it out of true altruism! And not to make money from an ally and to protect your own interests.
And I agreed with you in relation to the others who have died/are dying but I say again, as you clearly have difficulty in understanding what people type - I FULLY UNDERSTAND AND ACCEPT YOUR OPINION. INFACT, I ALMOST AGREE WITH IT BUT IT DOES NOT, ABSOLUTELY NOT, EXCUSE YOU CALLING THE RESPECT AND TRIBUTES PEOPLE PAY - GUFF.
... in a place reserved for the paying of respects.
Sorry What?
Reserved? We can have reserved threads now?
That's good to know, I had no idea! When was that decided? Where was it announced?
BTW, 298 people died in Pakistan today and another 30 on a bus in some far flung place. Shall we have a reserved thread for them too?
C
Oh, and for those sending Pm's saying they agree, its a shame you feel you can't just post the comments in this thread.
Spank86
14-09-12, 06:34 AM
BTW, 298 people died in Pakistan today and another 30 on a bus in some far flung place. Shall we have a reserved thread for them too?
If you want to start one we can.
I promise I wont post in it to slate it because that would be rude.
Insofar as any thread can 'belong' to anyone, this thread 'belongs' to Joe Marcon, as he started it.
I'd be really interested to hear his views on how it has developed
dizzyblonde
14-09-12, 07:42 AM
I've been watching this thread.....very carefully.
As it has gone so far from respect I shall now add this. I executed my right to remain silent, due to the nature of the thread, and my personal thoughts about the subject.I shall say now, Berlin's thoughts aren't far from my own,but that's for another day
. As far as the thread is concerned I think those in green would perhaps have been better suited to remaining on the fence, and impartial, keeping their thoughts silent, because of the intended nature of the thread. Instead,this in this circumstance has given a nice go sign for a bun fight, in a place it has no place.
I'm no moderator, but surely to god lead by example.
Taken me days to say that. You are all a disgrace,each one of you for joining in,and I'd be surprised if Joe wasn't ashamed of you all too. There's reasons why I've been quiet over this, but in this instance, I will go with my gut and say something. Shame on you all.regardless of your opinions of the subject.
So burn me in hell for being honest!
Spank86
14-09-12, 08:20 AM
Taken me days to say that. You are all a disgrace,each one of you for joining in,and I'd be surprised if Joe wasn't ashamed of you all too. There's reasons why I've been quiet over this, but in this instance, I will go with my gut and say something. Shame on you all.regardless of your opinions of the subject.
Self loathing dizzy?
Not healthy.
dizzyblonde
14-09-12, 08:24 AM
I beg your pardon Spank?
Spank86
14-09-12, 08:26 AM
You joined in to call shame for joining in.
;)
dizzyblonde
14-09-12, 08:32 AM
I know.....hence......burn me in hell for being honest!
I wasn't going to join in at all, but this thread just doesn't look nice, which was its intention.
The threads gone so far from the OP, its sad. I'd like to see it stop.......and that doesnt mean locked either!
Agree with Berlin.
BUT IT DOES NOT, ABSOLUTELY NOT, EXCUSE YOU CALLING THE RESPECT AND TRIBUTES PEOPLE PAY - GUFF.
Why does he need to be excused for saying this? You don't like it? fine. Personally, I find your posts Nauseating but I don't expect you to apologise.
fizzwheel
14-09-12, 08:53 AM
I've been watching the thread but not posting.
I dont like the inference that as moderators we should not join in a discussion or debate on a controversial subject. This is a discussion forum after all. Not much point being on it if you cant take part in discussion is there.
There should be some separation allowed by everybody on when we make a comment as ourselves and when make comment or take action as a moderator. That doesnt seem to be happening at the moment which is change from how things have been in the past.
What I'll do when I go home at lunchtime. Is split this thread off. I'll either tack the discussion onto the thread started by GruntyGiggles the other day or split the conversation off into a new thread and leave this thread for what it was intended in for the first place.
dizzyblonde
14-09-12, 09:05 AM
No, I wasn't infering moderators should not discuss controversial subjects fizz....however, you have understood my feeling, that it should be seperate from this intended thread.
Your recommendation should be welcomed as a positive result.
Spank86
14-09-12, 09:22 AM
Why does he need to be excused for saying this? You don't like it? fine. Personally, I find your posts Nauseating but I don't expect you to apologise.
Because whether you agree with his sentiments or not it's still very rude.
Because whether you agree with his sentiments or not it's still very rude.
Your perspective is that it's very rude. You don't seem to grasp that alternative perspectives exist outside of your own model of the world.
Spank86
14-09-12, 09:41 AM
Your perspective is that it's very rude. You don't seem to grasp that alternative perspectives exist outside of your own model of the world.
Thats not how rude works, its a societal construct.
Milky Bar Kid
14-09-12, 09:55 AM
I'm not saying his opinion is rude, not at all, but that is his opinion, which is different from others.
If people wish to express that opinion, fine, I understand but I find it very rude to call peoples tributes guff. That is the problem I have with the post - not the opinion.
Thats not how rude works, its a societal construct.
bwahahaha - brilliant. that made me laugh.
Using that logic, you look like this:
http://1.bp.blogspot.com/_6aKH-486JGQ/SqDxK_57aDI/AAAAAAAAAqk/ekBDBfoWW-c/s400/ar120593348256134.jpg
Spank86
14-09-12, 10:14 AM
bwahahaha - brilliant. that made me laugh.
Using that logic, you look like this:
http://1.bp.blogspot.com/_6aKH-486JGQ/SqDxK_57aDI/AAAAAAAAAqk/ekBDBfoWW-c/s400/ar120593348256134.jpg
At least I've got more hair than I had earlier, shame it's on my chin though. I'm sure that was meant to be rude also but im not particularly offended, he could be a brain surgeon for all I know.
Allow me to elaborate, If you're alone in a room with nobody to hear you then nothing that doesnt cause you to somehow offend yourself can be rude, however as soon as you enter company then you go into a situation where what is considered rude is further outside your control, generally speaking the majority or as groups get larger large minorities would decide.
In fact it's far easier for something to be considered rude since it only takes a few individuals to be offended than it is for it to be considered not rude.
In this instance you and the other poster are in the society of this forum, quite a number (in context) of posters have pointed out that they are offended both by the choice of words and the place of expression. That makes it rude whether you like it or not. Now you can decide you're happy with that level of rudeness and that you don't mind offending those people (of which I'm not actually one) but you can't deny that it's not rude because YOU don't find it rude from your blinkered perspectve.
Ironically your comment about perspectives applies more to you than me since it's the perspective of the receivers that decides rudeness not that of the speakers and offended voices trump unoffended (obviously HOW rude can be mitigated by the number of offended being very small in proportion to the group).
@Milky bar kid: I wasnt suggesting an opinion could be rude, merely the expression of it at an inappropriate time or place.
I'm sure that was meant to be rude also but im not particularly offended, he could be a brain surgeon for all I know.
Rudeness was not my intention, and your sureness of my intent to cause offence perhaps shows a little insecurity on your part.
quite a number (in context) of posters have pointed out that they are offended both by the choice of words and the place of expression. That makes it rude whether you like it or not
Why something is rude and why people take offense are two different things. Neither requires the other. Your correlation between the two demonstrates very poor logic.
Owenski
14-09-12, 10:39 AM
This thread now has nothing to do with the topic and desperately needs locking.
fizzwheel
14-09-12, 12:08 PM
This thread now has nothing to do with the topic and desperately needs locking.
I've split the conversation off into a new thread. Its getting heated and I am all for not stifling heated discussion or strong opinion.
But as said else where. If this degenerates into mod bashing or personal attacks I will lock the thread.
Spank86
14-09-12, 12:18 PM
Rudeness was not my intention, and your sureness of my intent to cause offence perhaps shows a little insecurity on your part.
then I have no idea what you mean't, I sound like I ride a harley? Or perhaps you were attempting the creation of a straw man by suggesting that if one thing is a societal construct then something else (the image of motorbikers) is?
Why something is rude and why people take offense are two different things. Neither requires the other. Your correlation between the two demonstrates very poor logic.
http://thesaurus.com/browse/offensive
Unsurprisingly people often take offense because they perceive something as rude. Which it is if thats the way its perceived.
fizzwheel
14-09-12, 12:25 PM
No, I wasn't infering moderators should not discuss controversial subjects fizz.
With respect that is not how your post reads. Well not to me anyway. Especially the "Those in green" comments.
Or perhaps you were attempting the creation of a straw man by suggesting that if one thing is a societal construct then something else (the image of motorbikers) is?
No straw man.
Definition: a social mechanism, phenomenon, or category created and developed by society; a perception of an individual, group, or idea that is 'constructed' through cultural or social practice
Unsurprisingly people often take offense because they perceive something as rude. Which it is if thats the way its perceived.
Because whether you agree with his sentiments or not it's still very rude.
So you judged the original comments to be rude, thus it is rude?
dizzyblonde
14-09-12, 12:46 PM
Well, if it takes a not so greatly worded post, which needs slightly more expansion of explanations, from somebody like myself......to get someone a little more diplomatic to come along and actually do something more constructive which suits all parties
I can't see the problem.
Those who want write a post to respect 9/11 can do so in the original thread. Those with slightly more controversial opinion, including moderators, can do so.
Should have been done days ago. But....alls well that ends well... Imo. :)
Spank86
14-09-12, 12:55 PM
No straw man.
Definition: a social mechanism, phenomenon, or category created and developed by society; a perception of an individual, group, or idea that is 'constructed' through cultural or social practice
So you are equating the construction of a stereotype where something is assumed about someone merely because of another factor which may be unrelated, with people being offended by specific words and phrases?
Thats a massive jump. I could go along with it if you were complaining that we'd inferred rudeness in someones thoughts based on an inoffensive statement but thats not what happened, the statement taken by itself was found offensive and rude.
So you judged the original comments to be rude, thus it is rude?
More because several people in the group did so, it became rude in that context.
How else would you judge rudeness except by reference to the group experiencing it?
So you are equating the construction of a stereotype where something is assumed about someone merely because of another factor which may be unrelated, with people being offended by specific words and phrases?
Now who's using the straw man? I used the definition of societal construct and applied it to both scenarios.
More because several people in the group did so, it became rude in that context.
The thread has 51 replies and 133 views. a handful of people seemed to take mild offence to the comments, and 2 (I think) people stated it to be rude (yourself included). Shall I assume that you have asked for the judgements of every person who has read the thread and not made comment on it being offensive and rude in order for you to reach your conclusive judgement?
MisterTommyH
14-09-12, 01:05 PM
Wow, I've seen this bubbling away for a few days but didn't view the threads because personally I don't pay public remembrances to things like the twin towers attacks. I admit I rolled my eyes when I saw the original thread go up, but that's because of the way I see and deal with things. Who am I to say that others shouldn't commemorate this how they feel best. Although I may personally not like these tributes I am not going to express my opinion in them because it is everyone's right to do so - but this is no longer about one event - its about society (public or forum). I like to think that I am tolerant of other peoples beliefs, mannerisms, ways ............ Extend that to race, sexuality and religion if you want.
The one thing I love about being British is that we, as a nation, culture, multi-racial mixing pot generally have an underlying tolerance for other peoples rights.
9/11 (or whatever you many want to call it) came about from a lack of tolerance of others.
These threads have come about because of a lack of tolerance of others views.
This is something that society as a whole seems to be losing, much to the detriment of our country.
Sometimes I want to stop the world and get off.
There's absolutely no need for this to get either heated or personal. Its (now) and adult discussion between intelligent adults.
If someone disagrees with someone in a thread there can be all sorts of toy throwing and dummy spitting if the posters choose not to accept the other persons point of view. It gets personal when the poster can no longer attack the argument and so starts to attack the arguer. Its poor debate in its truest sense.
and I've seen this before many times. I used to run a forum and as moderator I had to decide when it became about the person and not the argument.
And when I first posted in this thread I was fully aware that this would, quite likely, taint peoples perception of me forever and until hell freezes over and I'm fine with that. After all it's only an opinion and I respect anyone's opinion even if I don't agree with it. It was a considered opinion and action.
I wouldn't even consider posting anything other than respect in a true R.I.P. thread but I don't believe this thread is a true R.I.P thread hence my actions. Those that are disagreeing with me do consider it to be so. They also consider that, for example, this thread (or the original) is a restricted zone where no other opinion is welcome and that is what this debate is really about. One persons consideration of it being a proper R.I.P thrad versus anothers opinion that it's over used and saccharine sweet and cringe worthy and actually detracts from a true R.I.P thread. (mine).
And that's not to mention that fact that I'm an atheist a cringe at "God Bless" Anything, ( and most especially anything to do with war, killing and sides) but out of respect to people believing what they like without just towing the "you must think this" line., I've not brought religion into it.
If you note, my original post was actually a question posed as "Am I the only one that thinks..." So any reply should actually have been yes or no. It turns out that no, I'm not the only one. However, I'm possibly the only one to openly say so and devil be damned.
In hindsight I should have started another thread, however, since becoming a member here nearly a decade ago, and being actively involved in the community of the .org since then I didn't realise, not had read anywhere that certain threads were off limit to discussion.
In future, I will start a new thread if there's the slightest chance that opsting in the original thread might offend those with delicate constitutions. Unless it's someone getting offended on someone else's behalf. Then, I'm afraid it's no going to happen.
Gone fishing...
C
Spank86
14-09-12, 01:44 PM
Now who's using the straw man? I used the definition of societal construct and applied it to both scenarios.
No, you compared one societal construct (stereotyping) to another (ettiquette), you might as well have compared marriage or modern currency.
The thread has 51 replies and 133 views. a handful of people seemed to take mild offence to the comments, and 2 (I think) people stated it to be rude (yourself included). Shall I assume that you have asked for the judgements of every person who has read the thread and not made comment on it being offensive and rude in order for you to reach your conclusive judgement?
You know that each of those views aren't discrete individuals dont you?
My conclusion was admittedly based on the limited evidence of a few longstanding members of the forum finding the comments offensive and rude and not on any in depth survey however most people who find something objectionable will simply move on and make no comment at all. My personal belief is enough people have found it distasteful for it to be considered rude in context.
Incidentally I find this much more fun than a discussion about 9/11.
Spank86
14-09-12, 01:50 PM
And when I first posted in this thread I was fully aware that this would, quite likely, taint peoples perception of me forever and until hell freezes over and I'm fine with that. After all it's only an opinion and I respect anyone's opinion even if I don't agree with it. It was a considered opinion and action.
I don't actually disagree with your sentiments BTW, I simply believe that that thread may not have been the best place for its airing at least while it was still 9/11 and that the throw away line about "guff" at the end (think that was you?) was ill chosen and did more to hurt than help your point.
I respect your opinion, and it wont change my perception of any other opinions you chose to air, I just question some of the fine points in your airing of this one, hence my characterisation of some of it as "rude".
Biker Biggles
14-09-12, 01:57 PM
There's absolutely no need for this to get either heated or personal. Its (now) and adult discussion between intelligent adults.
If someone disagrees with someone in a thread there can be all sorts of toy throwing and dummy spitting if the posters choose not to accept the other persons point of view. It gets personal when the poster can no longer attack the argument and so starts to attack the arguer. Its poor debate in its truest sense.
and I've seen this before many times. I used to run a forum and as moderator I had to decide when it became about the person and not the argument.
And when I first posted in this thread I was fully aware that this would, quite likely, taint peoples perception of me forever and until hell freezes over and I'm fine with that. After all it's only an opinion and I respect anyone's opinion even if I don't agree with it. It was a considered opinion and action.
I wouldn't even consider posting anything other than respect in a true R.I.P. thread but I don't believe this thread is a true R.I.P thread hence my actions. Those that are disagreeing with me do consider it to be so. They also consider that, for example, this thread (or the original) is a restricted zone where no other opinion is welcome and that is what this debate is really about. One persons consideration of it being a proper R.I.P thrad versus anothers opinion that it's over used and saccharine sweet and cringe worthy and actually detracts from a true R.I.P thread. (mine).
And that's not to mention that fact that I'm an atheist a cringe at "God Bless" Anything, ( and most especially anything to do with war, killing and sides) but out of respect to people believing what they like without just towing the "you must think this" line., I've not brought religion into it.
If you note, my original post was actually a question posed as "Am I the only one that thinks..." So any reply should actually have been yes or no. It turns out that no, I'm not the only one. However, I'm possibly the only one to openly say so and devil be damned.
In hindsight I should have started another thread, however, since becoming a member here nearly a decade ago, and being actively involved in the community of the .org since then I didn't realise, not had read anywhere that certain threads were off limit to discussion.
In future, I will start a new thread if there's the slightest chance that opsting in the original thread might offend those with delicate constitutions. Unless it's someone getting offended on someone else's behalf. Then, I'm afraid it's no going to happen.
Gone fishing...
C
Im offended because my post got left in the original thread when it should have been moved to this one:mad:
Only joking:smt033
Cab
dizzyblonde
14-09-12, 01:57 PM
Now then, as this is now a thread for conversation and debate.
I'm not overly keen on seeing any commemoration of war, loss, terrorisation, bombing, invasions, be it 9/11 or WW2.
I live in a multi cultural household, my partner is Greek Cypriot whose family had 24 hrs to get out of their property or be shot in 1974, the war continues. Two Uncles were killed, his father in the army, no doubt with a conflict in his own mind as to wrong or right. Greek Cypriots are displaced the world over, and many can't go back to their homes. This 38 years later, gets very little shown as a conflct still in process...unless you have personal interest.
My grandmother is German, whose family got told they had to get out of their small holding, because the Russians were coming in WW2, as a teenage girl she hid in woods and bushes away from bombers overhead shooting at them. Only the Germans vs the rest of the world has place in our history books, what about those who were on another side of the coin....unless you purposely go to find out the information, its not given.
Another Grandparent served on HMS Hood, lost all his friends in one foul swoop, never to speak of war or his navy days ever again. Carried his feelings to the grave.
I watched 9/11 heavily pregnant, unfold before my very eyes, I found it an exceptionally dispicable affair. So many lives lost innocent lives.
Over the years, I have watched America meddle in alsorts of world affairs, be it wrong or right, people killed, displaced, need a home, they come here, people don't like it, are less tolerant. This was the case in 1974, or after WW2, but the world was a much more tolerant place. Since 9/11, the world has gone mad!
If people wish to commemorate 9/11, then they can do so, it is their personal wish. I don't, its not important, I see the scars of other such tragedies, that get un noticed. They don't get a fanfair every year in good old American style, conspiracy and other such things. I have a profound empathy with anyone that would have been involved at that time, and anyone that is still dealing with the aftermath.....but it can carry on for many many years, decades in fact, but those usually involved, don't want to remember, don't want a fanfair, and don't wish for it to be made a fuss, and if they do wish to pay a respect, do so very quietly.
I know this for a fact. I see it in my own household at certain times of the year.
I simply believe that that thread may not have been the best place for its airing at least while it was still 9/11 and that the throw away line about "guff" at the end (think that was you?) was ill chosen and did more to hurt than help your point.
I respect your opinion, and it wont change my perception of any other opinions you chose to air, I just question some of the fine points in your airing of this one, hence my characterisation of some of it as "rude".
Pretty much says most of what I think but would add that the Freedom of Speech so many people shout about in defence of their right to speak also comes with the responsibility to use it wisely or risk losing that freedom.
If there is a demo in Luton by the BNP are they exercising their Freedom of Speech or inciting racial hatred? Perhaps an extreme example but the point I'm trying to make is how something is worded can determine whether it is an abuse of that Freedom. When something becomes insulting to a majority, hiding behind "Freedom of Speech" doesn't mean the comment is appropriate for that situation. Let's face it, one of our Mods on here, quite rightly, might step in if something is offensive but by doing so he/she is not censoring...
Within the bounds of common decency, and in the right thread, post away.
gruntygiggles
14-09-12, 04:14 PM
I am going to gracefully bow out of this whole thing now because it is no longer being discussed in the thread that was started to pay respects.
That was my only gripe. I couldn't give two hoots what other people opinions are. I may not always share them, in this instance, I agree with a lot of what is being posted...I just felt there was a real lack of common courtesy and decency by the posting of opinions in the respect thread.
So...have fun debating :-)
I am a little concerned about the suggestion that Moderators on this forum are not allowed to also have an opinion, and express it.
If I had thought that was the case when I was invited to become a Mod, I may not have accepted.
Perhaps Mods should have a 'Mod' account and a 'Personal' account? No, that wouldn't work because a) no-one is allowed to hold more than one account and b) we do want to be accountable for our actions.
However, I do not believe that the senior Mod team do believe that Mods are not allowed to express anopinion. Therefore, I will reiterate that, on the whole, I agree with Berlin, in that the remembrance of one tragic loss of life is not more important than the remembrance of all the other innocent lives that have been lost in the name of 'war'.
Freedom of speech and tolerance or very very valuable factors in every society. Even if someone expresses something you really don't like, I think it is a sign of a bigger person to let them say it.
gruntygiggles
14-09-12, 05:09 PM
I am a little concerned about the suggestion that Moderators on this forum are not allowed to also have an opinion, and express it.
If I had thought that was the case when I was invited to become a Mod, I may not have accepted.
Perhaps Mods should have a 'Mod' account and a 'Personal' account? No, that wouldn't work because a) no-one is allowed to hold more than one account and b) we do want to be accountable for our actions.
However, I do not believe that the senior Mod team do believe that Mods are not allowed to express anopinion. Therefore, I will reiterate that, on the whole, I agree with Berlin, in that the remembrance of one tragic loss of life is not more important than the remembrance of all the other innocent lives that have been lost in the name of 'war'.
Freedom of speech and tolerance or very very valuable factors in every society. Even if someone expresses something you really don't like, I think it is a sign of a bigger person to let them say it.
Absolutely no suggestion from me that mods should not have an opinion and the freedom to share those opinions on here. My problem is people feeling the need to make those opinions in a place of respect. End of.
Spank86
14-09-12, 05:10 PM
You can't stop mods having an opinion since they're human and I'd rather have them airing it than not knowing what it is but possibly suffering the consequences.
I also trust that they will keep their private opinions out of moderating decisions and when they can't that the other mods will step in.
Spank86
14-09-12, 05:11 PM
You can't stop mods having an opinion since they're human and I'd rather have them airing it than not knowing what it is but possibly suffering the consequences.
I also trust that they will keep their private opinions out of moderating decisions and when they can't that the other mods will step in.
gruntygiggles
14-09-12, 05:17 PM
It does amaze me how things can become so huge and departed from the original issue so quickly.
Moderator or member, makes no difference, we all have the right share our opinions.
That right however does not excuse a lack of common decency. A place of respect is just that. Be it at a memorial, on a forum, it doesn't matter. It is disrespectful to the living and dead to make those places about you and your opinions when they are there purely to pay respect to the dead.
It does amaze me how things can become so huge and departed from the original issue so quickly.
Moderator or member, makes no difference, we all have the right share our opinions.
That right however does not excuse a lack of common decency. A place of respect is just that. Be it at a memorial, on a forum, it doesn't matter. It is disrespectful to the living and dead to make those places about you and your opinions when they are there purely to pay respect to the dead.
Yes we do all have the right to share our opinions - thank goodness.
However I do think that maybe the accusation of rudeness or lack of common decency is a judgement call and is subject to some strongly if strangely held opinions.
I still, cautiously, venture to say that expressing opinions that may question the need to commemorate those who sadly died at, or as a result of, the Twin Towers attack, was not necessarily disrespectful or rude.
However, having said that, if Fizz believes that the two topics should be separated, then I also respect that.
Anyone who feels the need to shout down the views of another, for whatever reason, is lacking in some level of tolerance
gruntygiggles
14-09-12, 06:21 PM
Yes we do all have the right to share our opinions - thank goodness.
However I do think that maybe the accusation of rudeness or lack of common decency is a judgement call and is subject to some strongly if strangely held opinions.
I still, cautiously, venture to say that expressing opinions that may question the need to commemorate those who sadly died at, or as a result of, the Twin Towers attack, was not necessarily disrespectful or rude.
However, having said that, if Fizz believes that the two topics should be separated, then I also respect that.
Anyone who feels the need to shout down the views of another, for whatever reason, is lacking in some level of tolerance
Not me then, I started another thread thoroughly welcoming the views and opinions to be shared.
Answer me this if you like:-
You see a group of people stood at the foot of a monument commemorating those that died on 7/7. They are paying their respects. Would you make the effort to walk over and tell them that whilst you understand their desire to pay respects, you don't think we should all be dwelling on it still or singling out 7/7 for remembrance because they are not the only people that have died at the hands of terrorists or natural disaster etc?
What gives you the right to interrupt the peaceful paying of respects that others wish to make?
I genuinely would love somebody to clearly point this out to me. Not using free speech or the right to an opinion as an excuse. I welcome free speech and I absolutely believe we all have the right to share our opinions.
BUT...can someone please please explain to me why you would NOT think it is rude to interrupt those wishing to pay respect to the fallen...ANY fallen.
All this talk of tolerance? Perhaps some should have been shown when you read the very clear and descriptive thread title.
Had it been, "9/11 - 11 years on" or "9/11 - who will be paying their respects" then fair enough...open season to say what you want.
However...it was titled, "9/11 - Respect" and was clear in its intent...so IMHO, to make personal opinions public inside that thread speaks volumes about how you respect the wishes of others, how tolerant you are to allow others the right to say/do what they believe is right and the fact that, in the face of clear and common consensus that do that was not right, nobody has stood up and said, "ok, sorry...no offence meant" and leave the bleeding thread free of your personal views.
In the continued effort to defend your points/opinions or rights to them IN THAT THREAD you have taken away the right that Joe had to pay his respects peacefully and the right of all those that wished to join him.
You have also shown a complete lack of tolerance for those wishing to pay respects peacefully by the continued disruption.
I just don't think this behaviour would happen in person, so I don't see why it is happening here.
The use of "you" in this post is does not indicate that I am talking to any particular person....but is instead directed at anyone who did post in that thread to share opinions or personal views.
With the very greatest respect Cheryl, I think you may be taking this a little too much to heart. None of us know the full intention Joe had behind the thread he originally opened. Maybe we shouldn't put words into his mouth, so to speak.
Unless there is something more behind all this. I know I certainly didn't mean to offend in any way at all. If I had seen a moment of quiet reflection or such like in the street I would have walked quietly past. However, the forum, especially Idle Banter, is a bit closer to home than that. I've often thought that it's like someone's front room, where losely connected people get together to chew the fat. In this situation I would have expressed my view, politely, as I think I did in the original thread. It makes me feel very uncomfortable that it's not acceptable to do that to a few people.
gruntygiggles
14-09-12, 07:31 PM
I agree with most of what you have just said Messie and I am perhaps a little more annoyed than I should be, but it is because I happen to think we don't have a very nice future ahead of us if we stand by and watch people call well meant wishes, "guff".
It is just not nice and I don't understand the defence of it.
It may be simplistic, but sometimes there is nothing wrong in expecting a basic level of decency.
Ok understood. 'Guff' is not a good word, and not one I would chose.
Peace and love
gruntygiggles
14-09-12, 07:39 PM
Ok understood. 'Guff' is not a good word, and not one I would chose.
Peace and love
Back atcha :-)
Spank86
14-09-12, 07:40 PM
Kiss and make up ladies?
gruntygiggles
14-09-12, 10:05 PM
Kiss and make up ladies?
Haha, Sally and I know each other well enough not to fall out in the first place ;-)
Spank86
14-09-12, 10:07 PM
Just in my head then.
William of Wykeham (http://www.quotationspage.com/quotes/William_of_Wykeham/) (1324 - 1404), Motto of Winchester College and New College, Oxford
It is by politeness, etiquette and charity that society is saved from falling into a heap of savagery.
Manners maketh man.
gruntygiggles
15-09-12, 08:32 AM
William of Wykeham (http://www.quotationspage.com/quotes/William_of_Wykeham/) (1324 - 1404), Motto of Winchester College and New College, Oxford
It is by politeness, etiquette and charity that society is saved from falling into a heap of savagery.
Oooh, I like that :-)
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