What would you do?

[gruntygiggles]

So, a friend of mine is a foster carer for a number of dogs. She usually ends up with dogs that have medical issues and she is no less than a saint for what she does for them. However, I have mixed emotions about her most recent addition.

She is a 13 week old collie. Ended up in rescue as the result of breeding two blue mearles together. Sparkle and her sister both have medical issues, but Sparkle is also blind and deaf. Not only that but she is anaemic and has an autoimmune deficiency.

She is faced with numerous lifelong veterinary visits and treatments, is constantly being scared by the touch of my friend or the other dogs. When she realises they are nice touches, she wags her tail, rolls around and wants cuddles, but still, it means she is always in the dark and being surprised by every contact.

I am unsure how I feel about this. I love my dogs so much it hurts sometimes, but I don't know if I could subject a dog to a life like that.

Is keeping her alive for her own good or is it more that it makes the humans around her feel better?

Discuss.

[yorkie_chris]

Sadly I think I'd have to have her put down.

[gruntygiggles]

Sadly I think I'd have to have her put down.

Me too Chris. I will post a picture up later. Sparkle and her sister Evie are the most adorable puppies, but I just don't think I could put her through what is going to be a life full of trauma and without the ability to see or hear comforting things.

[missyburd]

How very sad. Every animal should have a chance but I would have thought that even with the right owner who can attend to all Sparkle's needs it's just such an enormous task that's being asked.

I just don't think I could put her through what is going to be a life full of trauma and without the ability to see or hear comforting things.
But then again she won't miss what she's never had. If she had a daily routine that an owner could keep to so she could gain some sense of familiarity, but that's a massive responsibility and a burden in some respects. Dogs are so very trusting and if she were to fall in love with someone to the point of feeling safe wherever that person took her, whatever that person did with her then maybe it could work but how long would she have to live before that person came along? You could so easily find yourself back at square one, just one environmental factor/incident could set all her training back and consequently doing more damage than good.

I'd have to go with Chris on this one, sometimes it pays to be cruel to be kind.

[Fallout]

Dogs are like very young children. Terminally ill children lying in hospital beds generally want to live, despite all their illness and suffering. The positives make life worth living. If you don't believe in an afterlife (as I don't) there is nothing waiting for you when you die, so taking a life is taking away everything.

I believe the majority of times when an animal is put down it's to alleviate the owner's suffering. We just convince ourselves it's what the pet wants, but really, dogs live for the moment. A dog can suffer one minute, than be happy the next. They don't think long and hard about their terminal illness and conclude they want to die. When they are happy, they are happy. They're not happy with an overshadowing fear of long term health.

I think we should stop fooling ourselves into thinking we're doing what's best for a dog when we put them down. Unless a dog is literally, 100% riddled in agony all the time, we're doing what's best for us! That's how I feel. I can live with that.

[minimorecambe]

Unfortunately as she gets older if she gets scared when someone startles her she may bite out of fear and that would be awful for it to happen to a child or someone unknowing of her condition.
It is a very hard decision but I think to put her to sleep may be the best one for her.

Your friend sounds great Cheryl. I know what she is going through to a point from having the ferret rescue and getting a lot of badly inbred kits coming through.

Only she can make that decision for Sparkle.
Thoughts go out to her.

[gruntygiggles]

I put this up because I can't discuss it with her. I have enormous respect for her and what she does, but I am always sad when I get updates about her dogs.

She has a cocker spaniel that has had 12 operations in 18 months and is constantly sedated and still cries 20 hours a day in pain as it tries to move, but can't. She now has Sparkle, who is adorable, but who wees and poos herself in fear, jumps at everything and on top of that has to deal with pain on a daily basis.

Is it really good for the dogs to be kept alive just because we can medically manage it?

My fear is that if something happened to Dominique, most of the dogs she has, especially Jacob and Sparkle would have to go through major trauma to cope with all of the changes of new people/dogs/routines etc. Even Dom going on holiday would mean a major upheaval for these dogs, stress that is not necessary.

Fallout, I get what you are saying about animals being put to sleep to alleviate the owners suffering, but in this instance, my worry is that Sparkles suffering is being overlooked in order for the charity involved to stick to their moto of giving every dog a chance.

A chance is one thing, but this is a situation that will never improve. Also, a child with a terminal illness can have that explained to them, a dog cannot. Yes, a dog lives in the moment, but does that make it any better when the vast majority of moments are full of fear?

[chris8886]

Sadly I think I'd have to have her put down.

i'm afraid horrible as it may be i couldn't agree with you more chris

[Spank86]

I'd have to say I'd put them down.

Constant pain and fear is no life, If it were me that was left deaf, blind and in agony I'd want it to end even knowing theres nothing afterwards. Not if theres no chance of any change in the condition.

Its one thing to be waiting for improvement, it's another thing to just exist till nature finally ends your suffering.

Take the most humane option I say, let her die easily, the way most people think that guy with "locked in syndrome" should have been allowed to go.

[Fallout]

Fallout, I get what you are saying about animals being put to sleep to alleviate the owners suffering, but in this instance, my worry is that Sparkles suffering is being overlooked in order for the charity involved to stick to their moto of giving every dog a chance.

A chance is one thing, but this is a situation that will never improve. Also, a child with a terminal illness can have that explained to them, a dog cannot. Yes, a dog lives in the moment, but does that make it any better when the vast majority of moments are full of fear?

I obviously can't make sweeping statements without seeing the whole situation, so I really don't know the answer all I can say is this ...

Unfortunately as she gets older if she gets scared when someone startles her she may bite out of fear and that would be awful for it to happen to a child or someone unknowing of her condition.
It is a very hard decision but I think to put her to sleep may be the best one for her.

... is a perfect example of what I said (sorry Mini ... I'm not picking on you, I promise). How is it better for the dog to put it down because a child may get bitten? That's better for the child so it doesn't get hurt, and better for the owners so they don't have to deal with that situation, but it's not better for the dog. If I was a bit of a mentalist and someone suggested it'd be better for me to be put down because I might stab someone someday, I'd clearly be of the opinion that I'd rather stab someone someday than be put down!

That's the psychology A LOT of people seem to have. They justify putting the dog down for whatever reason and convince themselves it's in the dogs best interest. In the instance of a dog biting someone, it is never in their best interest to be put down because of that!

Again, I can't judge this situation myself properly. I just have strong opinions on animals being put down, as a result of having pets put down while growing up and being affected by it (as I'm sure many people are). I was not the sort of kid to believe my parents when they said "It's for the best". I thought for myself and concluded it wasn't.

In my case it was arthritis both times. The dog struggling to walk, ending up crapping in the house and spending most of it's time in it's bed. My parents concluded "it's not life for a dog" and has them put down, even though to me they seems largely happy. I strongly believe it was for my parents benefit, so they didn't have to feel bad watching the suffering. The act of having to clean up crap in the house was such a horrible thing. They probably had feelings that the dog was humiliated because it could go outside, and felt sad. But it's a dog! It will get over it! I really thing if you could communicate in that situation and say "Would you rather just lie in your bed most of the time and eat, or die?" they'd choose the former!

The same happened with my sister's last horse. It was put down. She justified it as it had some bad back injury and could only spend the rest of it's life in a field eating grass and could never be ridden or exercised. The reality was, she wanted her new horse and couldn't afford both, so convinced herself it was in the horses best interest. What horse doesn't want to stand in a field and eat grass and suffer mild discomfort when the other option is death?!

Anyway ... enough from me. All I'm saying is before anyone kills their pet, take a step back and truly understand the implications of being DEAD. Ask yourself is being DEAD is really better, and whether it's not your own suffering, guilt, helplessness, anguish etc. that you're alleviating instead. If it IS for your benefit, and you still want to put the animal down, FAIR PLAY. That's your choice. But don't lie to yourself and pretend it's in the animals interest. That's a shameful and pathetic action.

And just to reiterate one more time, I've gone general here! I can't comment on this scenario. I've just started venting general thoughts. All I can say is good luck with whatever happens and I hope she makes the right choices. :)

[Messie]

I have to agree with most of the others (including Yorkie Chris. This is getting spooky!), I would say put her to sleep. An enjoyable moment against many many other times of fear and pain is not comparison, in my book.
And, fwiw, in my family we have a saying that if any of us should get into such a situation of being incurably in pain or worse, please 'take us to the vets'. If it's right for us, it's right for them

[missyburd]

Dogs are like very young children. Terminally ill children lying in hospital beds generally want to live, despite all their illness and suffering. The positives make life worth living. If you don't believe in an afterlife (as I don't) there is nothing waiting for you when you die, so taking a life is taking away everything.

I believe the majority of times when an animal is put down it's to alleviate the owner's suffering. We just convince ourselves it's what the pet wants, but really, dogs live for the moment. A dog can suffer one minute, than be happy the next. They don't think long and hard about their terminal illness and conclude they want to die. When they are happy, they are happy. They're not happy with an overshadowing fear of long term health.

I think we should stop fooling ourselves into thinking we're doing what's best for a dog when we put them down. Unless a dog is literally, 100% riddled in agony all the time, we're doing what's best for us! That's how I feel. I can live with that.
A very good post. But, as someone who often likens young children to dogs and vice versa (behaviour and responses to discipline being the main comparisons), I don't, in this instance, feel it is the same at all. A dog cannot speak to us or convey its pain, and although we as humans are wholly guilty of anthropomorphising, isn't that what the whole pet to human relationship is all about? We relate to these animals, we have evolved with them, it is only natural to think we can understand what they are going through and determine what is best for them to a degree. Children are generally far more positive and, with an intelligence we can empathise with, know what else there is to life and what they can achieve with the right help and encouragement. A dog in Sparkle's case who will never be able to hear a good word or see a toy cannot live a fulfilling life. Admittedly who are we to say how a dog is fulfilling it's life but I would imagine being praised and seeing where its stick/ball has gone would be fairly high in the list of doggie musts :)

[Spank86]

I agree with what fallouts saying 100%


BUT, in this case it sounds like its a bit more serious. People do put animals down too easily but from the way this is described its a bit beyond that.

With regards to children getting bitten I speak from experience when I say that I wouldn't want a dog put down even after it'd bitten me, doesn't do anyone any good, not the dog, not me. Made me feel even worse actually.

[gruntygiggles]

... is a perfect example of what I said (sorry Mini ... I'm not picking on you, I promise). How is it better for the dog to put it down because a child may get bitten? That's better for the child so it doesn't get hurt, and better for the owners so they don't have to deal with that situation, but it's not better for the dog. If I was a bit of a mentalist and someone suggested it'd be better for me to be put down because I might stab someone someday, I'd clearly be of the opinion that I'd rather stab someone someday than be put down!


I think the point is more that this is a dog that is constantly under stress and could therefore bite. The biting itself not being the worrying thing, but the fact that the dog is so stressed and insecure that it feels it has to bite.

Who the hell are we to put an animal through a lifetime of stress just because we can medically keep it alive.

Without medical intervention, Sparkle would not survive. As it is, by making her survive, she is being condemned to a life of stress, fear, anxiety and pain, with only very little relief for a couple of hours a day that she can curl up on Doms lap.

Is that right?

[Fallout]

I don't know. I don't want to say. At the end of the day, whether a dog is suffering or not is subjective because it can't tell us. One person may think a dog that can't walk is suffering worse than death, and another may think that's better than death (my camp). As owners, we have to make that decision ourselves.

What I do know is, I actually think she needs to make the decision for her. Since she is doing a lot of good for other dogs, it's important she can give them time. If she forgoes looking after another dog because this one takes up all her time, then for the needs of the many (thank you Spock) it makes sense to put her to sleep.

It also depends on your view of the afterlife and death. You know, for me being dead is a very big deal. I don't believe in an afterlife. I think death is it. Game over. Gone forever. You're nothing but a rotting corpse. Everything you ever were and could have been or experienced is snuffed out. So I take my feelings on death under consideration. For someone who has never thought about death as much as I have probably would find it easier to put a dog to sleep as the ramifications aren't such a big deal.

Very complex! If I was forced to say based on what has been described here, I'd say it probably is best overall to put the dog to sleep, but for the owners benefit, which is fine in my book.

[gruntygiggles]

http://i291.photobucket.com/albums/ll318/gruntygiggles/sparkleandEvie.jpg
http://i291.photobucket.com/albums/ll318/gruntygiggles/sparkleandevie2.jpg

Sparkle in the first picture is the dog behind. As I have been told, she will go for a walk on a lead, but always needs to be pulled forward. She will not investigate or move unless she is pulled forward. Her sister Evie, at the front is also mostly blind and deaf, but does have very limited sight, so will happily wander off if allowed. There is a quality of life that Evie has that I would never wish to deny her.

The second picture is the only way apparently that Sparkle will be happy aside from being on Doms lap. She will gladly sit at the back door so long as she is in contact with her sister.

I will say this, so that I am not misunderstood. I do not want Sparkle to be put to sleep. I want her to live a life that is long and happy. My reason for posting this thread is to get an idea of how others feel about the situation as, as much as I don't want her to be put to sleep...I just can't shake the feeling that all the effort being put into keeping her alive is actually not the best thing for her in the long run.

Such a shame and a very valid point I should make is that this all came about because a greedy, uneducated moron of a back yard breeder decided to breed two blue mearles together to get nice looking puppies. People like this should be banned from ever keeping animals.

[Fallout]

Admittedly who are we to say how a dog is fulfilling it's life but I would imagine being praised and seeing where its stick/ball has gone would be fairly high in the list of doggie musts :)

I agree with that. Being able to walk, sniff an ****, chew a bone and chase a squirrel are also pretty important. It's just with those gone, is it really better to be dead? I don't know the answer, but death is the final deal in the deck. Suffering is something at least. Death is nothing. Very hard to really imagine the ramifications of death. It's an impossible decision really.

[gruntygiggles]

I don't know. I don't want to say. At the end of the day, whether a dog is suffering or not is subjective because it can't tell us. One person may think a dog that can't walk is suffering worse than death, and another may think that's better than death (my camp). As owners, we have to make that decision ourselves.

What I do know is, I actually think she needs to make the decision for her. Since she is doing a lot of good for other dogs, it's important she can give them time. If she forgoes looking after another dog because this one takes up all her time, then for the needs of the many (thank you Spock) it makes sense to put her to sleep.

It also depends on your view of the afterlife and death. You know, for me being dead is a very big deal. I don't believe in an afterlife. I think death is it. Game over. Gone forever. You're nothing but a rotting corpse. Everything you ever were and could have been or experienced is snuffed out. So I take my feelings on death under consideration. For someone who has never thought about death as much as I have probably would find it easier to put a dog to sleep as the ramifications aren't such a big deal.

Very complex! If I was forced to say based on what has been described here, I'd say it probably is best overall to put the dog to sleep, but for the owners benefit, which is fine in my book.


Having experienced life being snubbed out too many times, I am of the opinion that it is how we live when we are here that is important, not what happens to us when we are gone, but that is my perspective. Neither one of us is right or wrong and never will be.

I am in the camp of...we take responsibility for our animals. We should do everything in our power to keep them healthy and happy. But sometimes, keeping them alive is not the best thing...for them, not us.

[missyburd]

Love the pic by the back door. Reminds me of this pair's story

http://static.fjcdn.com/pictures/Description.+Not+mine+Lily+is+a+Great+Dane+that+ha s+been_cf137d_3854105.jpg

To be honest, if Sparkle has Evie which I'd missed from your OP, then there could be a lot of hope for her. They are a beautiful pair, such a shame to separate them and you could probably predict the effects it would have on Evie with Sparkle gone.

[gruntygiggles]

Love the pic by the back door. Reminds me of this pair's story

http://static.fjcdn.com/pictures/Description.+Not+mine+Lily+is+a+Great+Dane+that+ha s+been_cf137d_3854105.jpg

To be honest, if Sparkle has Evie which I'd missed from your OP, then there could be a lot of hope for her. They are a beautiful pair, such a shame to separate them and you could probably predict the effects it would have on Evie with Sparkle gone.

They will most likely be separated as Evie is getting offers for a permanent home and Sparkle is not. They are amazing together apparently when they are touching like this and Sparkle is apparently always relaxed when is this position with her sister.

Where I struggle is, Sparkle will not be with Evie forever anyway. Her life expectancy is less than half that of Evies, so keeping her alive would perhaps worsen those effects for Evie in the long run.

Such a horrible situation and all because of a breeder that should be locked up.

Perhaps it would be useful to think of ideas that might make it possible to make Sparkle more confident/less anxious and therefore give her a better quality of life to sway the balance a bit for her.

[Fallout]

Perhaps it would be useful to think of ideas that might make it possible to make Sparkle more confident/less anxious and therefore give her a better quality of life to sway the balance a bit for her.

Well with the touch issue, she just needs to be touched ALL the time. With enough contact, the fear should dissipate. Also since dogs have a very good sense of smell, some sort of spray therapy could work. I'm sure that associating smells with pleasure/positives could be possible. Imagine if you always spray a particular air freshner or something (very weak, not potent obviously) near her face before touching her, she'd soon associate that smell with contact.

Just some random ideas. You'd have to get pretty creative but the sense of smell is obviously something she still has.

[littleoldman2]

Sadly I would put it down. I couldn't bear to see so much suffering for its whole life time.

Many pets are put down for the selfish reasons of their owners as Fallout has said but this is no different to any animal being slaughtered for food. Pets - live stock same thing in the end its a dog.

[Fallout]

Many pets are put down for the selfish reasons of their owners as Fallout has said but this is no different to any animal being slaughtered for food. Pets - live stock same thing in the end its a dog.

I agree with this. So long as the reasons are honest and not delusions, putting an animal down for the owner's benefit can be ok imo. It's a cruel difficult world. Sometimes owner's have to be selfish. Just don't lie to yourself if this is what you choose.

[yorkie_chris]

Well with the touch issue, she just needs to be touched ALL the time. With enough contact, the fear should dissipate. Also since dogs have a very good sense of smell, some sort of spray therapy could work. I'm sure that associating smells with pleasure/positives could be possible. Imagine if you always spray a particular air freshner or something (very weak, not potent obviously) near her face before touching her, she'd soon associate that smell with contact.

Just some random ideas. You'd have to get pretty creative but the sense of smell is obviously something she still has.

She'll probably suss that by the smell of particular people anyway.

[gruntygiggles]

She'll probably suss that by the smell of particular people anyway.

Yeah she does. She still jumps though bless her.

[yorkie_chris]

They will most likely be separated as Evie is getting offers for a permanent home and Sparkle is not.

How could anyone offer to split those 2 up.

[Fallout]

She'll probably suss that by the smell of particular people anyway.

Yeah she does. She still jumps though bless her.

Yeah, I'm sure she knows who is close by the scent of people, but I'm suggesting a spray or sprays that mean something specific, e.g. I'm about to touch you. I'm sure a dog could be taught to associate certain smells with actions.

Seems worth a try to me.

[gruntygiggles]

How could anyone offer to split those 2 up.

Because when they are in an adoptive home as opposed to a foster home, the vets bills are not covered. Evie has no ongoing medical needs, Sparkle has lots...and a shorter life expectancy :-(

Yeah, I'm sure she knows who is close by the scent of people, but I'm suggesting a spray or sprays that mean something specific, e.g. I'm about to touch you. I'm sure a dog could be taught to associate certain smells with actions.

Seems worth a try to me.

I think anything is worth a try.