Lance Armstrong

[tactcom7]

Firstly apologies if this is a duplicate thread, but i know a lot of people on here are heavily into bikes and road racing etc.

So with that in mind, what are everyones thoughts and ideas on the just released 'damning and conclusive proof' that Armstrong was a habitual dope user and 'ran the most sophisticated, proffessionalised and successful doping programme that sport has ever seen'?

[Luckypants]

Personally I am very disappointed. I always defended Armstrong because he was never caught and cycling is the most tested sport on the planet. He was a sporting hero of mine.

The only thing you can say now is, during the 90's and early 00's everyone was at it, so maybe the playing field was level. They either scrap all race results from that era or write those times off as 'The Doping Years'.

Saddened. :(

[Berlin]

Innocent until proven guilty.. and they haven't... so he isn't.

The guy has taken more drug tests than any other sportsman alive.. and never had a positive test result....

Simples! :-)

C

[arc123]

The only thing you can say now is, during the 90's and early 00's everyone was at it, so maybe the playing field was level. They either scrap all race results from that era or write those times off as 'The Doping Years'.

Do you believe it's any different now?

[Luckypants]

I hope that the introduction of blood passports has made doping to hard to conceal to be worthwhile.

[ClunkintheUK]

I'm with Berlin on this one. Not categorically saying he has doped, but they haven't proved it, they are just gunning for him, because he beat the frogs at their own sport. Unless they actually have new evidence they should just give it a rest.

[Sid Squid]

I rather felt the same - no proof = not guilty. But his team mates speaking about his and their constant and organised doping seems pretty damning.

[Supervox]

I'm with Berlin on this one. Not categorically saying he has doped, but they haven't proved it, they are just gunning for him, because he beat the frogs at their own sport. Unless they actually have new evidence they should just give it a rest.

I'm not sure what your reasoning for this - it's the US Anti-Doping Agency that's been investigating him NOT the French !!

[monkey]

'damning and conclusive proof'

If the proof is other peoples testimony that they all used drugs did any of them get tested positive?

[xXBADGERXx]

The guy survived Cancer and went on to still be a hero and compete , personally I think that deserves respect in it`s own right and that will not be sullied by any "Doping Scandal" in my eyes . The fact that the guy got out of bed and carried on is enough in my book .

[AJC]

Disappointed but not all that surprised really. In that era where almost everyone was at it for one guy to win consistently without doping was very hard to believe.

As for the comments on him never being caught, two points really.

The use of the word 'sophisticated' is key, its well known that it was (and to a certain extent still is) possible to blood dope in ways which were (are) completely undetectable. Simply they were very good at it, the ones that got caught were just not as good. Plus half the time others got caught wasn't from tests but catching team doctors/team members with the drugs/paraphernalia. Not to mention payments to UCI and allegations of tip offs for testing times etc.

Secondly retrospective testing of blood, from his return especially, have proven doping as far as I am aware. I haven't read the report but just going from quotes such as: "His blood values in his valedictory 2009 and 2010 Tours, state an expert, had "less than a one in a million chance" of being natural."

I will admit I was never a huge fan of Armstrongs, but I respect a lot of what he has done. I am sitting with a Livestrong band on my arm as I type. Like any sporting matter a lot of opinion will come down to how much you liked the guy/team in the first place. So just my two cents, no offence caused hopefully!...

[Bri w]

1999
1. Lance Armstrong
2. Alex Zülle (‘98 busted for EPO)
3. Fernando Escartín (Systematic team doping exposed in ‘04)
4. Laurent Dufaux (‘98 busted for EPO)
5. Ángel Casero (‘06 implicated in Operacion Puerto)

2000
1. Lance Armstrong
2. Jan Ullrich (‘06 implicated in Operacion Puerto)
3. Joseba Beloki (‘06 implicated in Operacion Puerto)
4. Christophe Moraue (‘98 busted for EPO)
5. Roberto Heras (‘05 busted for EPO)

2001
1. Lance Armstrong
2. Jan Ullrich (‘06 implicated in Operacion Puerto)
3. Joseba Beloki (‘06 implicated in Operacion Puerto)
4. Andrei Kivilev
5. Igor González de Galdeano (‘06 implicated in Operacion Puerto)

2002
1. Lance Armstrong
2. Joseba Beloki (‘06 implicated in Operacion Puerto)
3. Raimondas Rumšas (Suspended in ‘03 for doping)
4. Santiago Botero (‘06 implicated in Operacion Puerto)
5. Igor González de Galdeano (‘06 implicated in Operacion Puerto)

2003
1. Lance Armstrong
2. Jan Ullrich (‘06 implicated in Operacion Puerto)
3. Alexander Vinokourov (Suspended in ‘07 for CERA)
4. Tyler Hamilton (Suspended ‘04 for blood doping)
5. Haimar Zubeldia

2004
1. Lance Armstrong
2. Andreas Kloden (Named in doping case in ‘08
3. Ivan Basso (Suspended in ‘07 for Operacion Puerto ties)
4. Jan Ullrich (‘06 implicated in Operacion Puerto)
5. Jose Azevedo (‘06 implicated in Operacion Puerto)

2005
1. Lance Armstrong
2. Ivan Basso (Suspended in ‘07 for Operacion Puerto ties)
3. Jan Ullrich (‘06 implicated in Operacion Puerto)
4. Fransico Mancebo (‘06 implicated in Operacion Puerto)
5. Alexander Vinokourov (Suspended in ‘07 for CERA)

So if Alex Zulle was busted for EPO, so it was obviously discoverable in a test, how come LA wasn't busted once in over 500 test covering xx years. Some of those test were totally at random, i.e. someone knocked on his door at home... And there's a bunch of guys who've got insignificant bans and their race results overturned for their testimony. Now you have the US Anti doping Agency telling the UCI to strip LA of his titles.

Maybe he is guilty but it should be proved with scientific evidence from the samples they've been storing for years, not some 'bought' testimony of proven cheats...

[maviczap]

Personally I am very disappointed. I always defended Armstrong because he was never caught and cycling is the most tested sport on the planet. He was a sporting hero of mine.

The only thing you can say now is, during the 90's and early 00's everyone was at it, so maybe the playing field was level. They either scrap all race results from that era or write those times off as 'The Doping Years'.

Saddened. :(

Yes, its a black day for cycling. I agree they were the doping years

Innocent until proven guilty.. and they haven't... so he isn't.

The guy has taken more drug tests than any other sportsman alive.. and never had a positive test result....

Simples! :-)

C

Not until recently was there a reliable test for EPO, once there was the dopers had moved on to blood transfusions, which up until recently were also hard to detect. So Lance amongst others using EPO would not have tested positive. The only clue to the use of EPO was an increased Heamocrit level.

Allegedly Armstrong tested positive twice, but this was covered up. Most notablely at the Tour Du Swiss.


I'm not sure what your reasoning for this - it's the US Anti-Doping Agency that's been investigating him NOT the French !!

Good point



So if Alex Zulle was busted for EPO, so it was obviously discoverable in a test, how come LA wasn't busted once in over 500 test covering xx years. Some of those test were totally at random, i.e. someone knocked on his door at home... And there's a bunch of guys who've got insignificant bans and their race results overturned for their testimony. Now you have the US Anti doping Agency telling the UCI to strip LA of his titles.

Maybe he is guilty but it should be proved with scientific evidence from the samples they've been storing for years, not some 'bought' testimony of proven cheats...


Zuelle didn't test positive, he admitted to using EPO along with most of his Festina team mates, after the team car was caught at the French border with hundreds of vials of EPO. The reliable test for EPO didn't exist until after the Sydney Olympics in 2000. Once that cat was out of the bag then the blood doping took over.

If the proof is other peoples testimony that they all used drugs did any of them get tested positive?

Yes, Tyler Hamilton did test positive for EPO, but only once the test for EPO was found, which was just after he'd won his Olympic title

Do you believe it's any different now?

Yes, but I won't be naive enough to say that no one dopes & no one will ever dope again.

At the peak of the EPO years, Pantani climbed Alpe D'Huez in a record 37 mins, its never been beaten, and never will be.

Since then as more and more dopers have been taken out, the crazy average speeds that the peleton used to be able to race at have also fallen, to the levels before EPO & blood transfusions took over.

I've been following cycling avidly since 1986, so I've witnessed the changes to the way the peleton rides. The EPO years started in about 1994 - 95 when the Gweiss Ballan team started to dominate the single day races, their team doctor was Armstrong's doctor, Dr Ferrari. Bjarn Riis (who was at Gweiss Ballan) won Tour De France 1996, using by his own admission EPO to beat Miguel Indurain, the last 'clean' winner IMO before the EPO & blood transfusion years.

Wiggins, Frome and all the SKY riders I believe are riding clean, plus many more in the peleton. The testing authorities will always be playing catch up, as the cheats find other products to boost their performance. No one rides away like they used to be able to do after an injection of EPO or a bag of fresh blood, if they do they stick out like a sore thumb, and attract the attention of the testers.

I've read some of Tyler Hamiltons book and the evidence is damning to say the least, so I'd say read that, plus I'd like to read the US anti doping's 1000 page document. In a court of law I think Armstrong wouldn't stand a chance in cross examination, all he say was I never tested positive.

[Spank86]

Riding clean... Or using a different drug?

[maviczap]

Riding clean... Or using a different drug?

Riding clean

[Spank86]

Glad to hear it, are they faster than the last year we suspect theres a possibility the winner was riding clean before all the drug allegations?

[maviczap]

The average speed of the peleton has dropped

[Spank86]

Which suggests that a bigger % are clean, it doesn't tell us what % though.

[maviczap]

Yes, but they'll probably never be able to tell you that, but a much larger majority than before.

[Spank86]

I'd suggest starting with the times of the winners pre doping and comparing them to now.

If there is such a thing as pre doping.

[maviczap]

If there is such a thing as pre doping.

No, but it was much cruder, just amphetamines & caffeine. These were just used for quick fixes

EPO boosted the red blood cell count, which allowed the user to train for harder and longer, and recover quicker. Tyler Hamilton & David Millars quotes about what it felt like when using EPO were 'riding without effort' if I remember correctly.

Blood doping used your own blood stored from the off season, when your blood was at its best, and hadn't been knackered by months of racing. Tranfuse knackered blood mid race with fresh red blood (bit like a oil change i suppose). Instant recovery, with no risk of not waking up, as could happen with EPO

Human growth hormone is the drug that could be creeping in, but in cycling I don't know of any positive tests.

[Littlepeahead]

The time has come to switch to slow bicycle racing. Anyone can try to ride fast but slow is tricky. You must have tried it with your mates as a kid.

[BanannaMan]

Very disapointing. :(










Should not be surprised I suppose.
Every sport I've ever been around, at or near the top level, invovled cheating of some form by nearly everyone involved.

[Berlin]

1999
1. Lance Armstrong
2. Alex Zülle (‘98 busted for EPO)
3. Fernando Escartín (Systematic team doping exposed in ‘04)
4. Laurent Dufaux (‘98 busted for EPO)
5. Ángel Casero (‘06 implicated in Operacion Puerto)

2000
1. Lance Armstrong
2. Jan Ullrich (‘06 implicated in Operacion Puerto)
3. Joseba Beloki (‘06 implicated in Operacion Puerto)
4. Christophe Moraue (‘98 busted for EPO)
5. Roberto Heras (‘05 busted for EPO)

2001
1. Lance Armstrong
2. Jan Ullrich (‘06 implicated in Operacion Puerto)
3. Joseba Beloki (‘06 implicated in Operacion Puerto)
4. Andrei Kivilev
5. Igor González de Galdeano (‘06 implicated in Operacion Puerto)

2002
1. Lance Armstrong
2. Joseba Beloki (‘06 implicated in Operacion Puerto)
3. Raimondas Rumšas (Suspended in ‘03 for doping)
4. Santiago Botero (‘06 implicated in Operacion Puerto)
5. Igor González de Galdeano (‘06 implicated in Operacion Puerto)

2003
1. Lance Armstrong
2. Jan Ullrich (‘06 implicated in Operacion Puerto)
3. Alexander Vinokourov (Suspended in ‘07 for CERA)
4. Tyler Hamilton (Suspended ‘04 for blood doping)
5. Haimar Zubeldia

2004
1. Lance Armstrong
2. Andreas Kloden (Named in doping case in ‘08
3. Ivan Basso (Suspended in ‘07 for Operacion Puerto ties)
4. Jan Ullrich (‘06 implicated in Operacion Puerto)
5. Jose Azevedo (‘06 implicated in Operacion Puerto)

2005
1. Lance Armstrong
2. Ivan Basso (Suspended in ‘07 for Operacion Puerto ties)
3. Jan Ullrich (‘06 implicated in Operacion Puerto)
4. Fransico Mancebo (‘06 implicated in Operacion Puerto)
5. Alexander Vinokourov (Suspended in ‘07 for CERA)

So if Alex Zulle was busted for EPO, so it was obviously discoverable in a test, how come LA wasn't busted once in over 500 test covering xx years. Some of those test were totally at random, i.e. someone knocked on his door at home... And there's a bunch of guys who've got insignificant bans and their race results overturned for their testimony. Now you have the US Anti doping Agency telling the UCI to strip LA of his titles.

Maybe he is guilty but it should be proved with scientific evidence from the samples they've been storing for years, not some 'bought' testimony of proven cheats...


Great post! Just about sums it up perfectly!

[maviczap]

Great post! Just about sums it up perfectly!

Yes it does, it shows that use of EPO & blood doping was endemic in the top tier of the peleton, and to win required everyone to use it.

Anyone thinking that Armstrong was so far ahead through his natural physically ability that he could do without dope is a bit naive.

Ok you could dismiss Tyler Hamiltons & Floyd Landis testimony as they had an axe to grind against Armstrong, but when Hincapie & Christian Van der Velde said that they knew & were involved in doping with Armstrong, they've got no beef with him, so why would they testify against him?

Armstrong cannot win the Tour on his own, he needs a team around him, Hamilton, Landis, Hincapie, Van der Velde all used EPO or blood transfusions as members of the US Postal squad, he was never that far ahead on natural ability, he needed to dope.

[Jackie_Black]

But if they were all doing it he still won. So why don't they just give it a rest. Surely the riders who came 2nd were all dopers too, so it seems pointless giving the titles to others.

Cycling should just move on.

[pookie]

Maybe somewhere down they line there might be some guy who genuinely rode without doping and he deserves to be rewarded for his efforts .. but it certainly does cause a bit of a mess regarding the results over those years. But who knows have far down the line you go?

[Spank86]

The time has come to switch to slow bicycle racing. Anyone can try to ride fast but slow is tricky. You must have tried it with your mates as a kid.
Hell yeah, they should have a ring with some obstacles and kerbs and the last person still upright wins.


That was a great game as a kid, cutting each other up and trying to stay upright while barely moving.

[Biker Biggles]

Maybe somewhere down they line there might be some guy who genuinely rode without doping and he deserves to be rewarded for his efforts .. but it certainly does cause a bit of a mess regarding the results over those years. But who knows have far down the line you go?

I know-----Lets award those titles to the bloke who came last each year.Surely he must have been clean,if we can remember who it was.
Did Jimmy Saville ever do the tour?:rolleyes:

[shonadoll]

Well if EVERYONE was doping, level playing field then?

I don't want to believe it, have read all his books and was in awe of him. Sadly most people given the chance are lying cheating *******s.

[gruntygiggles]

Forget what has been and gone and start with a clean slate now.

If it is true, it is disgraceful, but to go and try to sort out the mess and change results would take a huge amount of time and money...money that could be better spent ensuring that drugs testing is better for the future.

[MisterTommyH]

Although it's a bit of a let down because he's been raised to hero status - looking back at how dominant he was it's hard to see how there weren't more questions asked at the time.... despite clean drugs tests. Numbers / Lab results can tell you anything but when that doesn't tie up with what you're seeing with your own eyes there comes a point where 'proof' has to be treated carefully.

There is now a question about whether he could face criminal charges - not for the doping itself, but for perjury when he was questioned about financial irregularities by US agencies.

[ClunkintheUK]

Tommy, he could indeed face criminal charges for the doping. It is a criminal offense in France.

One thing I would say in defence against the "He was so far out in front" arguement is that he was consistent, he had one off tour, but it was the whole tour, and the main difference here was it was a very hot tour (armstrong loved racing in the rain an misery). If you look at any of the riders found to be doping in that time they were woefully inconsistent. Vinokourov won a stage, was nearly elliminated the day after for being too slow, then won (or came second) the day after that, and was then found with either artificial testoserone, or another man's blood in his system (i forget which exactly, there were a number of bans that year). Same with Oscar peirero (sorry can't spell his name) he had days in the mountains where to totally dominated, and other he was hanging out his a*se. Jan ullrich is a slightly special case, he was banned for taking recreational drugs (cocaine). Bjarne Riis pretty much came form nowhere to win. His prologue was mediocre at best, he lost the first time trial to Indurain, never had a comfortable day in the mountains (hence his nickname) then took big time out of Indurain in the final time trial.

The only high profile case I remember was Michael Rasmussen, who was consistent, he was thrown out for lying about his wheareabouts during the off season, and was therefore not tested properly. He was probably clean at least during the race, hence the consistency. Non-of this inconsistency was there in Armstrong.

If you look back in history to when doping was legal (pre-1967) there was massive inconsistency in some riders. Best known example was Tommy Simpson, who died from doping whilst in Yellow. (not all riders were walking experiments in pharmaceuticals).

Also his (Armstrong's) body shape changed dramatically due to cancer. Look at him in the 2006 tour when he won the stage two days after Fabio Casertelli's death. He was a very heavy set rider, a definite classics racer. (big guy, race hard for a day, right out in front, don't need to worry about recovery). He did have the engine and pedigree to win, but was carrying too much weight to be effective in the mountains. After cancer he lost 15-20 lbs (or kgs) from his natural body frame. He built his body back up after cancer purely to cycle fast. Here he did take steroids, which were legal for sportmen recovering from such illnesses, but illegal without the illness.

Also if you look at Armstrongs career wins, they are all Tour wins, or races as a build up to the tour. The riders he was racing against would have been racing week in week out for months before this, and would continue to do so for a couple of months afterwards. The sport is littered with example of guys who have crashed out in an early race in the season, needed two months to recover, and come to the tour to have an outstanding tour, because they were fresh. I don't know if he ever rode the Giro d'italia, but if he did it was as a domestique for one of his teammates, not for overall victory.

[pookie]

so they want to void the winners over the period ... http://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/0/cycling/19927300

On reflection I don't really blame lance or other riders for doping. It seems like it was pandemic over the period and in a way an arms war between the teams. With testing and regulation largely ineffective I guess you had to be in it to win it. And one suspects maybe the best person in it won it. Maybe there should be a drugs amnesty where all those that took part could freely acknowledge their use of banned substances and then work out a clearer picture of what happened.
Step up Mr Armstrong and lead the charge ...

[EssexDave]

Yes he lied (repeatedly) and yes he cheated (as did everyone else - not that this excuses it).

But we shouldn't forget that despite all this, the man recovered from cancer and EPO/doping and whatever, he is still a champion for what he's done.

I'm not saying he should keep his titles, hell it's pretty damning, even more so that he's been resolute in saying that he never did.

However, as a icon of what can be possible, he's still one of the best in my opinion, and anyone who says otherwise is just kidding themselves.

[Balky001]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ben_Johnson_(sprinter)

For those that are old enough to remember the 80's, this reminds me a bit of the Ben Johnson debacle in the 80's, although luckily that was caughts relatively early and dealt with quickly.

Johnson was a good runner but not a world beater until he was doping up. He took so much limelight way from Carl Lewis and those moments in a athlete's life are short lived. Carl was a great but for a few years looked like Johnson was better. Johnson's excuse? Everyone else was doing it....

If LA was doping for as long as it appears then you don't know just how good he was, its impossible to tell. Of course he was good, but maybe also better at using drugs more effectively, it's impossible to tell. That's the shame of drugs and destroying peoples perceptions. I can understand the temptation, if everyone is doing it, filling up on blood etc, then it's hard to compete and the sport needs to do more. Stripping AL of his titles is a strong statement. If they had done nothing they are weak.

If LA had been a successful politician nobody would be defending him for cheating or over-claiming expense just because everyone else did, you'd want them to pay it back and lose their title. I don't understand why 'successful' sportsman/entertainers are so untouchable in fans' views?

[fizzwheel]

Well if EVERYONE was doping, level playing field then?

EPO will effect different people in different ways i.e it will raise the red blood cell level in one person more than another even if they get given the same dose of EPO.

So it doesnt really level the playing field.

I read Tyler Hamiltons book whilst I was on holiday and I think Armstrong is guilty as sin. If what Hamilton has said in there is true and I dont see he has any reason to lie about it.

I was in awe of Armstrong for his recovery and for even getting back on his bike again. He was somebody I looked up to. Not anymore, Its disappointing for the sport, but not unexpected.

David Millar's book is also worth a read it charts ( as does Hamiltons book ) the journey from a clean rider to a doper.

Hamilton suggests that Armstrong thought that the world owed him something after his cancer recovery and would do and did do anything that would give him an advantage and allow him to win as he thought it was his right to win.

[maviczap]

My final thought on the matter, whilst I have the up most respect for what Armstrong did for his cancer charity and for surviving cancer, he has profited by millions $ by cheating.

What is important to note is that cycling is trying it's damnedest to clean up it act, with WADA, USADA, UCI and most countries own anti doping squads,having a rigorous testing program, both announced & unannounced.

One little known fact that during Operation Puerto that caught a lot of cheating cyclists (Ulrich, Basso etc etc), there were other clients of the same doctor from tennis & football that have never been bought to book for doping.

Their names were never released, unlike the cyclists.

But imagine a world class tennis player who gets a nice fresh batch of his own blood mid tournament, as part of his recovery program, which would re-energise him for his next matches? They get similar benefits to the endurance & speed athletes.

One of this years Olympic walking athletes was disqualified or prevented from starting this event after abnormalities with his tests, in fact I think it was EPO again.

His doctor?

Dr Ferrari again........................................... nuff said

[shonadoll]

EPO will effect different people in different ways i.e it will raise the red blood cell level in one person more than another even if they get given the same dose of EPO.

So it doesnt really level the playing field.

I read Tyler Hamiltons book whilst I was on holiday and I think Armstrong is guilty as sin. If what Hamilton has said in there is true and I dont see he has any reason to lie about it.

I was in awe of Armstrong for his recovery and for even getting back on his bike again. He was somebody I looked up to. Not anymore, Its disappointing for the sport, but not unexpected.

David Millar's book is also worth a read it charts ( as does Hamiltons book ) the journey from a clean rider to a doper.

Hamilton suggests that Armstrong thought that the world owed him something after his cancer recovery and would do and did do anything that would give him an advantage and allow him to win as he thought it was his right to win.


I can see it would affect different people in different ways, but the stage of cancer he came back from was terminal for most people, he also had hardcore chemo, so what I meant was like levelling the playing field for him.

Ill check that book out, I've read all of lances because am/was such a fan, but at the end of the day if he did, then he KNOWS he won nothing, which will eat him up eventually. Was so upset when I heard.

[fizzwheel]

I read something in the paper this morning, that Armstrong admited to doping before he was diagnosed with Cancer. There's also it would appear to be rumour circulating that his cancer was caused by doping... whether or not there's any truth to it or not I dont know.

[fizzwheel]

which will eat him up eventually.

I dont think it will, he's pig headed and arrogant. Basically he doesnt think he's done anything wrong, so there's nothing to for him to get eaten up about...

[shonadoll]

I do, he's competitive and eventually the truth will out. It always does. But hey, I'm the stupid bint who trusted a close friend of mine, a lovely alcoholic who tried to destroy my family. I just can't quite believe it of Lance,I suppose, I never learn...

[Spank86]

EPO will effect different people in different ways i.e it will raise the red blood cell level in one person more than another even if they get given the same dose of EPO.

So it doesnt really level the playing field.



Well exercise affects different people in different ways too so in a sense it IS a level field.

[MisterTommyH]

I'm sorry, but I've never heard such rubbish.

Excercise affects all people differently, yes, but it's about the work that you as a person can put in to get there. If everything affected everyone equally then where would be the competition.

Why not put little motors on all the wheels - that would really level it up.

Using drugs is taking the 'easy' option. And the deceit that comes with it completely takes away any concept of sportsmanship - especially when 'clean' athletes are ridiculed and forced out of the sport.

[Spank86]

I'm not disagreeing with that im just saying a playing field where everyone uses drugs is just as level as one where nobody does.

Back in the old days any professional training at all would have been considered tantamount to cheating.

[fizzwheel]

I'm not disagreeing with that im just saying a playing field where everyone uses drugs is just as level as one where nobody does.

I can see where you are coming from and I thought as you do up until recently. However I'm not.

EPO usage as said will effect different athletes in different ways. Steroids / human growth hormone will effect athletes in different ways.

You'll get athletes who will take a little, you'll get athletes who will take whatever they can get their hands on with no regard to their own health. EPO produces new red blood cells which result in thicker blood. It gets to the point where the heart cant cope with the strain and fails.

You'll get athletes who wont take anything at all, yet who will still try and compete with the dopers and cant. Who feel robbed that their careers were cut short because they refused to take drugs.

You'll always get people who cheat or push the envelope. The whole problem with doping is that the culture in cycling stops people speaking out about it and it appears that Lance was a bully and was one of the people at the top who prevented people from speaking out about it.

I really would suggest reading Tyler Hamiltons book. It really does explain it all really well. The other one worth reading is "The Death of Marco Pantani" not just because of the storey, but also because the blood work and Hematocrit stuff is all explained in there in great depth.

[maviczap]

I really would suggest reading Tyler Hamiltons book. It really does explain it all really well

So where did you get your copy? Its not out yet in the UK, its on my Amazon list.

On a Kindle?

[fizzwheel]

I got it in Ireland picked it up in a little bookshop in Sligo.

This is the one I've been reading

http://www.amazon.co.uk/The-Secret-Race-Cover-ups-Winning/dp/0593071735/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&qid=1350249487&sr=8-1

[Spank86]

Eating red meat affects people in different ways, altitude training does, people don't start on a level playing field when they even BEGIN training...

We are all individuals so two people with the exact same diet and regime will get different benefits.

I'm not saying drug taking is right, it does bad bad things to a body (as does exercise now I come to think of it, best to avoid it and stick to things with engines) I just think that in a situation where everyone's taking drugs it's no less level than a situation where nobody is.

[MisterTommyH]

Yes, but as humans by nature we eat red meat. As humans, some of us live at altitude.... so these are all things that could be considered 'natural' and therefore the differences of effects could be considered acceptable. Harnessing these and using them in the way that gives you optimum benefit is all about making the best of yourself.

In no way could EPO, blood transfusions or steroids be considered natural, and therefore you are getting an artificial advantage.

Also, your argument assumes that everyone was doping. Even given the number of people who have given evidence I do not think this is the case. There are people who have tried to out doping and been laughed out. And what about the person who could have been a competitor in a clean race, but had a concience, or didn't want to take the risks of drugs. Not a level playing field for them.

[maviczap]

I got it in Ireland picked it up in a little bookshop in Sligo.

This is the one I've been reading

http://www.amazon.co.uk/The-Secret-Race-Cover-ups-Winning/dp/0593071735/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&qid=1350249487&sr=8-1

Ah, you've bought the hard cover. I wasn't prepared to put any more money in Tyler's bank account than absolutely neccessary.


Also, your argument assumes that everyone was doping. Even given the number of people who have given evidence I do not think this is the case. There are people who have tried to out doping and been laughed out. And what about the person who could have been a competitor in a clean race, but had a concience, or didn't want to take the risks of drugs. Not a level playing field for them.

+1. Results for our very own Chris Boardman would have been very different had it been a level playing field. Ok, he could beat anyone on the day in the short distance prologue's, but in the longer TT's he was stuffed against the EPO mob. He was never in contention in the 3 week tours because he didn't dope, when everyone around him was.

Indurain could possibly have won 6 TDF, but lost out to Rjiss who admitted he was on EPO.

Boardman & Indurain were both naturally talented IMHO

My final final word on this, promise

[maviczap]

Listen to Radio 5 live now

[SoulKiss]

Yes he lied (repeatedly) and yes he cheated (as did everyone else - not that this excuses it).

But we shouldn't forget that despite all this, the man recovered from cancer and EPO/doping and whatever, he is still a champion for what he's done.

I'm not saying he should keep his titles, hell it's pretty damning, even more so that he's been resolute in saying that he never did.

However, as a icon of what can be possible, he's still one of the best in my opinion, and anyone who says otherwise is just kidding themselves.

He's a liar AND a cheat and he should be regarded as an Icon?

How does that work?

As for the cancer, there are theories that the doping could have CAUSED the cancer.

Also, if he had been tested properly, they would have picked the cancer up BEFORE he got to the coughing up blood stage, which was when he went to see a doctor.

[EssexDave]

Dave,

I'm not referring to him as being a role model for the human race or anything.

The guy had cancer, caused by whatever. He recovered, and went on to win the toughest endurance event on the planet. YES - he used drugs. As did everyone else at that time. (Or at least the majority up the sharp end). If it was a completely clean race, who knows if he'd have still won it. I can guarantee you most cyclists drugs or not would not be able to get close to him.

I'm not suggesting that he be given anything, because yes he cheated and yes he lied. All I'm saying is, that for people who don't believe they can, perhaps he is a good icon.

[SoulKiss]

Dave,

I'm not referring to him as being a role model for the human race or anything.

The guy had cancer, caused by whatever. He recovered, and went on to win the toughest endurance event on the planet. YES - he used drugs. As did everyone else at that time. (Or at least the majority up the sharp end). If it was a completely clean race, who knows if he'd have still won it. I can guarantee you most cyclists drugs or not would not be able to get close to him.

I'm not suggesting that he be given anything, because yes he cheated and yes he lied. All I'm saying is, that for people who don't believe they can, perhaps he is a good icon.

He cheated, NOTHING he did counts.

Had he got up after the cancer and then regained his former form in an non-competative arena THEN he would be someone to be held up to the world, and maybe bring arguements for those drugs to be used in the recovery from cancer/disease.

As it is, he was probably doping BEFORE the cancer (hence the it maybe caused it) so he just returned to his doped up performances after the cancer.

It shows JUST how much of an advantage doping gave, and "everyone was doing it" just doesn't hold up.

[yorkie_chris]

I can see where you are coming from and I thought as you do up until recently. However I'm not.

EPO usage as said will effect different athletes in different ways. Steroids / human growth hormone will effect athletes in different ways.

You'll get athletes who will take a little, you'll get athletes who will take whatever they can get their hands on with no regard to their own health. EPO produces new red blood cells which result in thicker blood. It gets to the point where the heart cant cope with the strain and fails.

You'll get athletes who wont take anything at all, yet who will still try and compete with the dopers and cant. Who feel robbed that their careers were cut short because they refused to take drugs.

You'll always get people who cheat or push the envelope. The whole problem with doping is that the culture in cycling stops people speaking out about it and it appears that Lance was a bully and was one of the people at the top who prevented people from speaking out about it.

I really would suggest reading Tyler Hamiltons book. It really does explain it all really well. The other one worth reading is "The Death of Marco Pantani" not just because of the storey, but also because the blood work and Hematocrit stuff is all explained in there in great depth.

Interesting bit about that particular drug from Mark Ellyat's book (he's a diver and sod all to do with cycling like...)

Sounds like a mugs game, who'd want to be on that playing field if that was the state of things and known to people not even part of the scene!

A B-list sportsman in the UK scribbled a rant to a diving magazine saying that I was promoting a type of diving in which to fail meant certain death. In his particular two wheeled discipline, I hear that any competitor with a chance of winning a non-ferrous medal is hooked on the drug E.P.O. This powerful and popular (but illegal) performance enhancer has some particularly attractive side affects. User’s report having to get up every hour throughout the night to run up and down the stairs in an effort to increase a dangerously low pulse. Should the heavy sleeper fail to hear the hourly wake up call, he (or she) can rest safe in the knowledge that their heart will likely stop dead,

[EssexDave]

Dave, the whole point of everyone is doing it is that it is a much more level field as opposed to only one person doing it.

Obviously drugs affect everyone differently, but still to be able to do that in my eyes is impressive.

[Spank86]

He's a liar AND a cheat and he should be regarded as an Icon?

How does that work?
Well if you were a liar and a cheat who else would you look to as a role model... Jeffrey Archer?

[MisterTommyH]

And Sean Yates has left sky for personal reasons. Apparently his interview with team management revealed nothing that would have required him to leave................. and yet the timing allows him to leave without signing the 'pledge'.

Not exactly unexpected, but it's a shame that it leaves so many questions/suspicions. If he didn't dope then the timing is extremely coincidental.

[maviczap]

NAnd Sean Yates has left sky for personal reasons. Apparently his interview with team management revealed nothing that would have required him to leave................. and yet the timing allows him to leave without signing the 'pledge'.

Not exactly unexpected, but it's a shame that it leaves so many questions/suspicions. If he didn't dope then the timing is extremely coincidental.

The Telegrapgh article says he had some involvement with doping whilst working with Armstrong at Motorola, US Postal & Astana. Tbh it wouldve been impossible not to have been involved at some level or not to have known what was going on.

But like all the other riders he probably didn't have any choice, dope up or feck off my team.

He's paid the price as Brailsford wants an entirely clean regime, and Yates hadn't fessed up otherwise he wouldn't have got a contract. Same as Bobby Julich.

By admitting it now he gets a parachute payment from Sky.

It's a shame.

[MisterTommyH]

I'd agree with you, but that's not what the Team Sky statement says.

It says the interviews brought up nothing that would have required him to leave..... Why leave then? To me that means no golden parachute either.

I agree it would have been difficult to avoid at the time, and I've been waiting for this to come out, but I've more respect for people like Millar who admit it than those who continue to not admit it.

[maviczap]

I'd agree with you, but that's not what the Team Sky statement says.

It says the interviews brought up nothing that would have required him to leave..... Why leave then? To me that means no golden parachute either.

I agree it would have been difficult to avoid at the time, and I've been waiting for this to come out, but I've more respect for people like Millar who admit it than those who continue to not admit it.

I hadn't seen the Sky statement, so like you say why leave?

Yes, Millar has come clean about his wrong doings, and is trying to do his bit to get the sport cleaned up.

TBH I think it would be VERY hard to find someone who was was a professional cyclist in the 90's who wasn't involved or knew about doping on their team

Only person I can think of is Chris Boardman

[pookie]

I didnt see that coming..lance spills the beans

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-us-canada-21024288

[arc123]

that took ball for him to admit it...

[xXBADGERXx]

that took ball for him to admit it...

http://media.tumblr.com/tumblr_mbm0t7g4Xd1r1nz4l.gif

[maviczap]

As posted up in the cycling thread

Oprah tweeted that Lance was 'Prepared for it' so I presume he didn't say as much as he should, so in the words of the BBC reprter, he conducted the interview himself, rather than Oprah grilling him.

She was apparently mesmerised by him. Probably why he chose to give his interviewed to her

[The Idle Biker]

I liked what Nicole Cooke said about it all. There was a good article on what she said in a few papers but this short video clip sums it up nicely, I think.

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/sport/othersports/cycling/9802253/Nicole-Cooke-highlights-that-Lance-Armstrong-and-Tyler-Hamilton-are-cyclings-biggest-losers-following-retirement.html

[MisterTommyH]

Can anyone point me in a direction of the video of the interview?

[fizzwheel]

Have you got Sky, if so its being repeated on the Discovery channel at regular intervals at present...

[MisterTommyH]

Have you got Sky, if so its being repeated on the Discovery channel at regular intervals at present...

Set to Record. Cheers.

[maviczap]

Can't believe he thinks he's been treated unfairly, he only admitted because he was boxed into a corner, otherwise he'd still be denying it

He didn't think he was cheating because he looked up the definition in the dictionary?

[Pedrosa]

I was truly impressed with Armstrong's record after coming back from major health problems. I even bought two of his books. However I am completely disgusted by this whole affair now.

I hate the fact that he prevented other very talented and dedicated riders from claiming tour wins and that all in the sport have people looking sideways at them now.

It confirms to me what a fantastic athlete Miguel Indurain was though and that is not a bad thing.

Cheat or not,he has raised fantastic sums of money for good causes, not that it should carry any mitigating value in this case. Banning him from "all sports" for life though I do find somewhat bizarre, cycling yeah ok. But like he can never play a round of golf? Odd.

[MisterTommyH]

Why is it bizarre?

He can still do the sport, he just can't compete. In ANY sport. He's proved himself to not understand, and have gone against, the ethos of sporting competition.

He hasn't rehabilitated. He doesn't think he cheated. He's only come clean (from what I understand to a very limited degree) to try and get the ban lifted - and he's done that on a TV show that sensationalist (and probably made him money) rather than to the people that count.

Also while he's still in possession of so much prize money he wasn't entitled to, why should he be entitled to compete for more.... in anything.

[Littlepeahead]

I hear all the people and media he sued for accusing him of taking drugs are now going to try and get their payouts back. If he donated it all to charity then that could pose a moral dilemma. However if he kept it himself I hope they succeed.

[Spank86]

No real moral dilemma, they wouldn't be getting the money back from the charities just him, what he did with a similar sum of money afterwards doesn't make much difference.

[Bluefish]

No doubt as he has admitted he cheated he will be paying back all money's received during those years, like **** he will, ****.

[maviczap]

I'm reading Bjanne Riis autobiography at the moment, he also won the TDF whilst doped

His reasons for doping were the same or similar as Armstrong's

He also didn't admit doping until there was no other option

Unlike Armstrong he admitted pretty much everything, as then everything was out in the open and the press couldn't ask him any more questions

He never took anyone to court for accusing him of doping

He also took some positive steps to try and stop his riders from doping by introducing tests for his riders. It wasn't a complete sucess, but it was the start of improving things

What he did wasn't right, but he's done more to try and improve things than Armstrong will ever do.

[MisterTommyH]

Just watched both episodes of the interview.

Don't believe for one second that he actually regrets what he did.
Am convinced that he still believes it was right / ok.
Can't see how he's still denying the fact that he was the 'leader' and should get the same deal as everyone else.

Overall he comes across as someone who's now desperate to save his relationships with his family... Kids, ex wife, maybe ex wife's permission to keep seeing his kids?
An his ex wife's insistence that if he came back in '09 that he must do it clean.... Don't believe that he did that, but has to continue with that lie so as not to upset / ruin things there.

The documentary hasn't changed my opinion of him, but maybe his motivations for coming clean(ish).

[Biker Biggles]

The more we hear about this the more I feel that the Lance Armstrong thing is getting out of proportion.
He was a professional sportsman who cheated like hell,and did it bigger and better than most,or most that we know about.But, in principle,is he really any different from all the other professional sportspeople who cheat?Not just in cycling where it has clearly been rife,but many other sports.Footballers who dive,rugby players with fake blood,F1 teams who steal rivals plans or deliberately crash or manipulate a result,make your own list.
Im not sure that getting tunnel vision about this bloke will help get rid of the cheating culture in so much sport.Maybe we should look at sports that are relatively free of it and learn from them.Snooker anyone?

[maviczap]

The more we hear about this the more I feel that the Lance Armstrong thing is getting out of proportion.
He was a professional sportsman who cheated like hell,and did it bigger and better than most,or most that we know about.But, in principle,is he really any different from all the other professional sportspeople who cheat?Not just in cycling where it has clearly been rife,but many other sports.Footballers who dive,rugby players with fake blood,F1 teams who steal rivals plans or deliberately crash or manipulate a result,make your own list.
Im not sure that getting tunnel vision about this bloke will help get rid of the cheating culture in so much sport.Maybe we should look at sports that are relatively free of it and learn from them.Snooker anyone?

Maybe, but cycling has been trying to clean up its act more than most sports. He was the big fish they all wanted to net.

I think we've reached the bottom now, and once the Lance thing has died its natural death, then I hope things will improve.

Cycling has always hit the headlines when it comes to doping, but other sports including tennis & football have a lot of skeletons in their cupboard, which were never revealed as part of Op Puerto investigations which got Pantani, Basso etc etc

[SuzukiNess]

so who's buying LA's next book "how I cheated for X years and got away with it" ? he'll need the $$'s to pay back all the money he "stole" :)

I really hoped that it was all a massive set up to taint him but now that he's come.. ermm clean, I personally don't believe he deserves a second chance nor should he ever be allowed to compete in any sport ever again. pfft LA you knew what you were doing, now suffer the consequences.. he's not sorry... he's sorry he got caught

just wonder where he would be standing and how loud he'd be squealing if his nearest rival had done what he's done.

[maviczap]

just wonder where he would be standing and how loud he'd be squealing if his nearest rival had done what he's done.

Well that's the rub of it

When one of Bjarne Riis team was caught out by a dope test, Armstrong was all for not allowing the team that Riis owned into the TDF!!

[BanannaMan]

Once cyclings greatest hero, now it's greatest villian.

The fact that he played up not doping so much at the time makes it worse.
Cheating at this level of extemeness is more than a total disgrace.
And I find his lack of remorse and 'thinking he's done no wrong' to be outright disgusting.
I care not what happens to him.
Let him fade into obscurity the whining cheater that he is.

Lance Armstrong
World Class Cheater

[The Basket]

Biggest issue that he has lied under oath in libel claims.

Oops.

Perjury is a bigger crime that cheating.

[ClunkintheUK]

Biggest issue that he has lied under oath in libel claims.

Oops.

Perjury is a bigger crime that cheating.

This is the really big thing.

Also most people when they have been caught cheating actually stop lying, and more than one have gone out of their way to promote a clean culture (Bjarne Riis was mentioned, but what about David Millar too.) I could only manage to watch about 15 minutes of the interview before I decided it was not worth it.

He was saying that they were not tested in the off season. However his first book has an entire chapter about off season testing, this was back in '99. I think he is even mentioning it happening back in '96.

[dyzio]

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-asia-21115720

Made me chukkle :)

[metalmonkey]

Lance Armstrong: Man buys 7,000 DVDs before Oprah interview:smt005

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-21145592

This guy has made a bad choice!

:smt098

Oi Lance:smt019:toss:

I haven't seen the interview, but he seems he lives in a different reality to the rest of us. I fear people trying to get their money back will end making lots of lawyers rich and the people who really should get the money back no better off. Though for some people money won't make right what he did to them, he clearly is a nasty person and should be treated in the same manor he treated others.

He couldn't have done it alone, so all the people involved really should be forced to the leave sport so what if it wecks cycling its better to start over rather than make out everything is okay and its change.

[maviczap]

Lance Armstrong: Man buys 7,000 DVDs before Oprah interview:smt005

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-21145592

This guy has made a bad choice!

:smt098

Oi Lance:smt019:toss:

I haven't seen the interview, but he seems he lives in a different reality to the rest of us. I fear people trying to get their money back will end making lots of lawyers rich and the people who really should get the money back no better off. Though for some people money won't make right what he did to them, he clearly is a nasty person and should be treated in the same manor he treated others.

He couldn't have done it alone, so all the people involved really should be forced to the leave sport so what if it wecks cycling its better to start over rather than make out everything is okay and its change.


Ooh dear, 7,000 bird scarer's :mrgreen:

Read Tyler Hamilton's book 'The secret race' on how it was done, it certainly was a team effort. It's not a glorification of what went on, quite the opposite.

[MisterTommyH]

I'm usually quite anti getting books / music / films etc by means of copies / illegal downloads etc... But these guys are people who I have no problem de-frauding out of royalties..... Anyone got free copies?

[maviczap]

You can borrow my copy of Tylers book once I've finished it.

I was of the same opinion, I didn't want to line his pockets with my money, so I didn't buy the hardback version for that reason.

I was lucky enough to buy a 2nd hand copy of the paperback

[Brettus]

http://i.imgur.com/hZvdkyd.jpg

[ClunkintheUK]

AHAHAHAHA.

That made me laugh out loud and Pepsi to come out my nose in the middle of the office.

[Lozzo]

Really!

I don't see why he's being so harshly treated for what he did - I honestly think he should be held up as a proper hard hero and role model.

The last time I tried riding a bicycle with that amount of drugs in me I fell off in the driveway, threw up on the pavement, convinced myself I could fly if I pedalled and flapped my arms hard enough, tried to outrun a police traffic car and eventually fell off again into the local canal.

I'm telling you, Lance Armstrong is a god!

[SuzukiNess]

good one lozzo :)

[Lozzo]

http://vimeo.com/58191312#

I lol'd :-)

[metalmonkey]

Really!

I don't see why he's being so harshly treated for what he did - I honestly think he should be held up as a proper hard hero and role model.

The last time I tried riding a bicycle with that amount of drugs in me I fell off in the driveway, threw up on the pavement, convinced myself I could fly if I pedalled and flapped my arms hard enough, tried to outrun a police traffic car and eventually fell off again into the local canal.

I'm telling you, Lance Armstrong is a god!

If you had seen the state my mate was in the over w/end then he is gold medal stuff, he didn't try to fly but made a good effort at being a cat:rolleyes: