View Full Version : Absence Policy at work
daveyrach
23-10-12, 02:13 PM
So to cut a long story short I am 25 and am close to being diagnosed with a inherited heart condition that both my dad and granddad suffered from. My doc has signed me off work on two separate occasions now and I had some time off for man-flu but according to policy if I have 3 unauthorised absences in 12 months I am subject to a disciplinary.
If there is a further 2 occasions in 6 months then a written warning, and a further 2 in the next 6 months can lead to dismissal.
My question is if my doc says I am too sick too work that he feels the need to sign me off as unfit to work at all then surely my company are breaking the law? I mean the stress of a disciplinary could cause my cardiac problem to flare up as I already at increased risk of heart attack. My doc seems to think something is amiss with this policy. I could understand if I was off every Monday with hang-overs etc as some are in my office.
Any advice?
I'd probably start with the HR department and lay all my cards on the table, you never know, they might actually be open to a friendly approach and be able to accommodate any absences you incur if they know that you have a genuine medical reason - at least then you can say you have tried the reasonable approach too
EssexDave
23-10-12, 02:20 PM
Unauthorised absence is when you don't tell them? So surely if doc has signed you off it's an 'authorised absence'
Yeah, Unauthorised Absence would be like chucking a sickie on Monday due to a hangover, as Davy mentioned - so if they know of a medical condition beforehand and that he is under the doctor it can't be UA any more :)
EssexDave
23-10-12, 02:42 PM
It can become very difficult to dismiss someone for illness and they'd have to be careful or they'd leave you open to take them to tribunal for unfair dismissal
Unauthorised used to be self-certified, e.g. the Monday morning syndrome you mentioned. However, it seems to be a growing trend to to call an absence they haven't authorised, even Doctor certified, as unauthorised.
daveyrach
23-10-12, 02:56 PM
Yes, self-cert is classed as unauthorised.
Doctor sign off is classes as unauthorised
The only authosised absence is annual leave.
I called my boss on both occasions and told him immediately after my appointments that the doc had signed me off for such and such reason and when all my follow up appts are even when I'm returning but it is still classed as unauthorised
They have said they will help in any way they can but anymore absences will also be classed as unauthorised therefore leaving me open to disciplinary.
Fair point made though they can't dismiss me because of a genuine illness.
Spank86
23-10-12, 03:03 PM
Document and record everything and if they want to do any formal discussions ask if you can have someone else present.
Write down dates, times, and what was said now, it'll put you in a much better position if the worst does come to the worst.
ClunkintheUK
23-10-12, 03:41 PM
Doctor sign off is classes as unauthorised
The only authosised absence is annual leave.
I would have thought that the statutory rights are that a doctor sign off is authorised (certainly has been everywhere I have worked). Therefore if they are saying this it would be a contractual issue, and you have a case for unreasonable terms (not sure of the legal name of this, but it essentially means that stupid terms, like Apple owning your house because of small print when you bought something off iTunes, are unreasonable and therefore not legally binding). It would be unreasonable to expect all employees to never be sick more then 3 times in the time they work for a company.
Also given you spoke to your manager and he has, I assume, said ok, then I would take that as authorisation.
I would also take pains to find out if this is company policy or just your boss being a selfish douche :)
shonadoll
23-10-12, 04:09 PM
Unauthorised absence is when you don't tell them? So surely if doc has signed you off it's an 'authorised absence'
Exactly.
shonadoll
23-10-12, 04:11 PM
I was off sick for eight months (cancer) and as long as they had a sick Line, there's nothing they could do. They were fabulous anyway.
Speedy Claire
23-10-12, 04:37 PM
Unfortunately more and more employers are taking this stance re absences and my employer (NHS) has a similar policy to the one you described. Ours is 3 absences in a 12 month period or any absence longer than 12 weeks results in a formal interview with Human Resources which more often than not results in first written warning. Any further absence in the following 12 months (even if it`s one day or authorised by GP) will result in a second warning and if it goes to 3 you are dismissed.
We have staff who have received written warnings following absences for conditions such as slipped disc and also for having to undergo unplanned surgery. The only exception to the rule is if it is planned surgery.
I would imagine in your case that the nature of your condition is such that it will be permanent and last longer than 12 months so in your case I would assume you come under the disability at work act??? look up the act and if you apply it would be more difficult to impose warnings and dismissal on you. They were unable to give me a written warning as I come under the disability at work act as I have fibromyalgia.
Best of luck
timwilky
23-10-12, 04:47 PM
The wife whilst suffering from post operative cancer treatment, chemo and radio therapy was threatened with dismissal by her NHS employer. Ironically she was being treated by the same trust that employed her. Her consultants saying she was unfit for work yet other in the same ogranisation saying work or be sacked.
A good employer values their staff. Invests in them and wants to retain them. Strange others would rather get rid than work with the employee to maximise their investment.
no wonder flu and other viruses are spreading like wildfire in this country.
daveyrach
23-10-12, 05:59 PM
I would also take pains to find out if this is company policy or just your boss being a selfish douche :)
It is in my company handbook. I actually get on with my boss very well. I had interview today reading the 3 absence rule, he has avtiallu overridden HR and said given the circumstances not to worry and we will deal with any more occurrences as they arise.
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Biker Biggles
23-10-12, 06:30 PM
Unfortunately more and more employers are taking this stance re absences and my employer (NHS) has a similar policy to the one you described. Ours is 3 absences in a 12 month period or any absence longer than 12 weeks results in a formal interview with Human Resources which more often than not results in first written warning. Any further absence in the following 12 months (even if it`s one day or authorised by GP) will result in a second warning and if it goes to 3 you are dismissed.
We have staff who have received written warnings following absences for conditions such as slipped disc and also for having to undergo unplanned surgery. The only exception to the rule is if it is planned surgery.
I would imagine in your case that the nature of your condition is such that it will be permanent and last longer than 12 months so in your case I would assume you come under the disability at work act??? look up the act and if you apply it would be more difficult to impose warnings and dismissal on you. They were unable to give me a written warning as I come under the disability at work act as I have fibromyalgia.
Best of luck
As above.
Dont listen to anyone who tells you they cant sack you for genuine illness.They most certainly can,and frequently do.They dont sack you for a disciplinary matter,like unauthorised absense or similar offences,they dismiss you for breach of your employment contract.That is usually because you have failed to attend work when you are supposed to,and have therefore not delivered your contracted hours of work to the employer.This is really very common these days and has nothing to do with right and wrong,just what they can get away with under our present employment law.Which is really ****e to employees.
Speedy Claire
23-10-12, 06:35 PM
It is in my company handbook. I actually get on with my boss very well. I had interview today reading the 3 absence rule, he has avtiallu overridden HR and said given the circumstances not to worry and we will deal with any more occurrences as they arise.
Sent from my Samsung Galaxy S2 using Tapatalk 2
I`d say be really careful cos your boss will not be able to overrule HR on too many occasions. Don`t know who you work for but if they have a HR dept then i`m guessing they`re quite large?
As a team if anyone is sick and is worried about sick absences I`ll allow staff to take the absence as annual leave but we`re lucky cos we have a generous annual leave allowance to tap into. It can`t always be done tho and if HR were to find out how myself and other managers were working we`d be in serious trouble :(
My advice is to get this heart condition diagnosed... it will come under the disability at work act then inform your HR Dept that you now come under the Act. Any future absences you then have if they can be attributed to your condition shouldn`t result in you receiving a warning.
Littlepeahead
23-10-12, 07:49 PM
If you are signed off work would your employer and type of work you do allow you to work from home?
I had a bone spur removed from my foot last year as planned surgery which meant several weeks off as I couldn't walk, so work loaned me a laptop and a dongle and paid my mobile bill so that although I couldn't do the 2 hour commute into the office I could work. Admittedly there were some things I couldn't cover, such as looking after film crews on site, but the fact I made every effort to do as much as possible while in plaster was appreciated and I was listed as working from home and not off sick.
It sounds like you get along with your manager so perhaps what is required is a way for you to show you really want to work as much as you can and are happy to discuss ways to make this happen.
Biker Biggles
23-10-12, 08:08 PM
The wife whilst suffering from post operative cancer treatment, chemo and radio therapy was threatened with dismissal by her NHS employer. Ironically she was being treated by the same trust that employed her. Her consultants saying she was unfit for work yet other in the same ogranisation saying work or be sacked.
A good employer values their staff. Invests in them and wants to retain them. Strange others would rather get rid than work with the employee to maximise their investment.
Sad to say this is all too typical of the "modern"workplace,especially the public sector,and more especially the NHS.They really do know how to demotivate and demoralise their workforce,both as individuals and collectively.Its largely because they are stuffed with inept managers who could never hack it in the private sector,and couldnt do the jobs they"manage"either.Those who cant------get promoted into management.
Speedy Claire
23-10-12, 08:25 PM
Sad to say this is all too typical of the "modern"workplace,especially the public sector,and more especially the NHS.They really do know how to demotivate and demoralise their workforce,both as individuals and collectively.Its largely because they are stuffed with inept managers who could never hack it in the private sector,and couldnt do the jobs they"manage"either.Those who cant------get promoted into management.
Couldn`t agree more..... since our merger with another trust earlier this year I can`t believe the changes and rulings that have been implemented. It`s absolutely crazy and everytime somebody says "they can`t do that" the answer is "oh yes they can" cos they`re running a business and businesses need results and productivity and reductions in running costs blah blah blah :rolleyes:
I`ve just been seconded into another managerial post... I should be really happy and pleased with myself cos it`s another promotion. A few years ago I would have been so excited as it`s yet another step up the ladder but in honesty I dread it and haven`t got it in me to feel excited. :(
Spank86
23-10-12, 08:25 PM
Bloody stupid in the NHS, if I'm in hospital I'd prefer the nurses were not in the hospital infecting me with various illnesses that I'm in no condition to fight but instead at home so I could heal in peace.
Speedy Claire
23-10-12, 08:38 PM
Bloody stupid in the NHS, if I'm in hospital I'd prefer the nurses were not in the hospital infecting me with various illnesses that I'm in no condition to fight but instead at home so I could heal in peace.
I`ve quite rightly been refused entry into patients homes because i`ve been really poorly with chest infections yet can`t take sick leave cos I`m in fear of a warning.
District nurses like myself are going into vulnerable patients homes to set up and take down intravenous chemotherapy... we`re dealing with patients who have arterial lines in situ and we`re coughing and spluttering all over them!! all down to the fear of receiving a written warning for being off sick. It`s absolutely shocking.
Daveyrach........ I`m sorry that my ranting re. the NHS has, in some ways, detracted from your current situation but in other ways it`s quite relevant as it demonstrates that your position is by no means unique. People like yourself are facing similar situations everywhere and yep they can do it and yep the employers will get away with doing it :(
daveyrach
24-10-12, 07:35 AM
I`d say be really careful cos your boss will not be able to overrule HR on too many occasions. Don`t know who you work for but if they have a HR dept then i`m guessing they`re quite large?
As a team if anyone is sick and is worried about sick absences I`ll allow staff to take the absence as annual leave but we`re lucky cos we have a generous annual leave allowance to tap into. It can`t always be done tho and if HR were to find out how myself and other managers were working we`d be in serious trouble :(
My advice is to get this heart condition diagnosed... it will come under the disability at work act then inform your HR Dept that you now come under the Act. Any future absences you then have if they can be attributed to your condition shouldn`t result in you receiving a warning.
My company is actually quite small in the UK we do not have our own HR dept, but they are a big company in Europe and are part of a much bigger group in the UK which is who's HR dept we use.
You will probably be protected by DDA Act. Check it out.
acting_strange
24-10-12, 11:41 AM
Call ACAS they will give you free advice and although their "rules" are not law if it comes to a tribunal and your company has not been "reasonable" then they will have to look out...
If your heart condition is congenital are you classed as having a disability? If not please check up... if you are found to be then you may have a case under the disability act...
Biker Biggles
24-10-12, 05:15 PM
The disability angle is useful to you but be aware it only protects you to a certain extent.The employer is required to make reasonable adjustments to enable you to do your job.They are not required to allow you to take extra sick,or very little of it if any.They may be reluctant to take action against you if they have failed to make reasonable adjustments.
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