Police Commissioner Elections

[squirrel_hunter]

Are you excited about it?

Ok, I'll try that again, have you heard about it?

Or alternatively do you even care about it?

So I know very little about this election. Apparently we now need to elect someone to oversee the police. My problem with this is that until the other week I didn't know the current system needed an overhaul, and I'm not sure that electing someone is going to be the best way to do that. Further to that if the answer is to elect someone I'm seriously concerned that they will be affiliated to a political party as going by recent events politics and the police don't always get along. Whats more is I heard a figure of what these elections are going to cost, and lets just say I think that obscene amount of money can be better spent elsewhere.

Its fair to say I don't support this process unless someone can persuade me otherwise.

So what to do? At the moment I am thinking of spoiling my ballot as a form of protest. But then I think if I turn up and vote does that legitimize the process? Should I just stay at home? What is the rest of the org going to do?

[MisterTommyH]

I'm not sure it needed doing and there are some dangers in it - but it's happening so I'm going to vote. If I don't vote I can't complain afterwards - and I might have some things to complain about.

I live in a county where the whole county votes one way, except one city which votes another (roughly equal constituencies).

Being a city there are some problems with alcohol on Friday nights etc...

Trying my hardest to avoid politics.... The city candidate is campaigning on the fact that they will bring rural coppers into the city to deal with this if needed rather than working with the city council to control licensing. This could potentially leave my area without sufficient police cover. We're not high crime, but we're not no crime. Why should we have to lose our police cover?

Moral of the storey..... You may not care, you may think it's a waste money, but look into it because you may be getting something that will seriously affect you. And if you don't vote you have no right to complain.

[Sir Trev]

I don't know who the candidates are in my area - not seen any leaflets, posters or other vote-for-me type stuff. May exist but I've not seen them. At this rate I'll have to do my own homework to find out but I seriously doubt many of the bottom feeders living in the area around my estate will bother to do this (assuming they know there is an election of course).

[Spank86]

I dont know who any of the candidates are so I shan't be voting.

I wish I'd known you could stand, the salary is excellent and since nobody knows who the candidates are I'm pretty sure a few hundred flyers would have bagged me the job quite nicely.

[Ch00]

London is not getting an elected commissioner so I havent looked into it as much but the elected commissioner wont have that much say into the running of that police force. For a start there is no money all budgets have been cut so to put more police in one area you have to take from another as stated by MTH.


PCCs will cut crime and deliver and efficient police service


They will aim to cut crime and deliver an effective and efficient police service within the force area. They will do this by:

holding the chief constable to account for the delivery of the force
setting and updating a police and crime plan
setting the force budget and precept
regularly engaging with the public and communities
appointing, and where necessary dismissing, the chief constable
It will not be for the PCC to tell the professionals how to do their job - the legislation continues to protect the operational independence of the police by making it clear that the chief constables retain direction and control of the forces officers and staff. The operations of the police will not be politicised; who is arrested and how investigations work will not become political decisions.
Impartiality

PCCs will be required to swear an oath of impartiality when they are elected to office. The swearing of an oath will be an important symbol of impartiality, emphasising both the significance of this new role in local communities and that PCCs are there to serve the people, not a political party or any one section of their electorate.

Taken from http://www.homeoffice.gov.uk/police/police-crime-commissioners/public/what-is-pcc/

Also looking at the website they top pay for the PCC is £100,000 which is about 4 new PCs not best value for money.

[BigBaddad]

Waste of money IMHO. Unless one of these nominees comes out and says they're against speed cameras. But that won't happen, how else will they pay for all those doughnuts.

[Biker Biggles]

In an organisation where there are already too many chiefs and too few indians it can be no surprise that we are to be given yet more chiefs.More jobs for the boys(and girls)
I hope hardly anyone goes out and votes,and they all get abolished before the next election.

[ClunkintheUK]

This worries me massively (I had no idea either). Judiciary, Executive and Legislative should all be completely separate. In this country there is some connection between Executive and Legislative (ministers still sit in parliament, or house of lords), if there are elections for police commisioner then it open up the avenue for political judiciary, and therefore a connection between the Executive and Judiciary. I cannot think of a single public figure, certainly no politician, that I would want to have effective control over all three.

[timwilky]

To be honest I think the role is overdue. Currently we have police committees directing our police forces. Who is elected to this committee is determined by jobs for the boys within whatever local council runs your area. So at least this way, the service users get to decide who is responsible for their local plod. As such it should be free from the political infighting and petty agendas of local politics.

[Bri w]

We got a leaflet thro' the door a couple of weeks back. It was just a red rag to a bull - Bri lost it with the candidate.

"Look at what the Coalition Govt has done to the Police. Vote for the Labour candidate at the upcoming elections blah blah blah." + more political rhetoric.

I had a right go at the Labour candidate for politicising the position and for using the election as a vehicle for party politics. And seeing as I had a head of steam up I then got in touch with our MP and let him have both barrels too.

I wasn't going to vote, in protest, but now I'll be voting for whoever isn't the Labour candidate.

[NTECUK]

Its all a secret round hear who has the experience to do the job safely .

[Owenski]

I think its an overdue position, but I don't see how people who know nothing about it are expected to take an educated vote on it.

We've had nothing through the door and other than the "victor Oscar tango echo" radio adverts I've heard nothing on it.

My plan is to ask a friend who is at bobby level who they think will get the job done, that's where my vote will go.

[_Stretchie_]

I don't know who the candidates are in my area - not seen any leaflets, posters or other vote-for-me type stuff

I dont know who any of the candidates are so I shan't be voting


Me and Cheryl have said the same, we've seen the adverts on TV, great... WHO are the candidates? Not a sausage has been seen saying who they are or what they want / believe / stand for

[Spank86]

I'm telling you with a run of a few thousand leaflets and a couple of days work we could have all become commissioners.

[_Stretchie_]

Google is your friends when the government can't be arsed

http://www.policeelections.com/

Put your postcode in here

[punyXpress]

I'm telling you with a run of a few thousand leaflets and a couple of days work we could have all become commissioners.
Agreed, but isn't there the minor matter of a five grand deposit?
In parliamentary elections: " Deposit £500 paid by candidates or their parties to be allowed to stand. It is returned if the candidate wins 5% or more of the votes cast "
For CopJob, they should lose their £5000 if less than 5% of the electorate vote for them - nearly all would lose their deposits.
Most candidates appear to be political nominees, usually from existing committees.
Radio bits:
Blue corner: want to keep streets safe for my, and neighbours kids.
Red corner: there's lots of POWER!
Says it all, really.

[Cymraeg_Atodeg]

Go to this web-site http://chris4gwentpcc.co.uk/ and see what someone who is independent wants to do with the PCC position.

It is a shame that so many areas have to pick between people of political affiliation, this will only lead to party political meddling

[Sir Trev]

Google is your friends when the government can't be arsed

http://www.policeelections.com/

Put your postcode in here


Wow - what a mix of different ways to spout bull excrement! Some of mine (Thames Valley) were just an extended CV, some were "I will..." statements which made slightly more sense but promised little. Four political parties and two independants to choose from but no real comparison to allow an unbiased decision.

[SoulKiss]

Red corner: there's lots of POWER!


Clarkson is running in your area?

[yorkie_chris]

Two local council/poltical wallah types, one of whom is a liberal type who works for the "safer stronger communities partnership" doubtless usual state funded wazzocks who've never done owt proper.

The third candidate is a retired copper and lists his political leaning as independant... seems more suitable.

[Bibio]

so we are getting even more Chiefs and less Indians. sounds like the NHS.

Scotland is supposed to be getting a united police force.. oohhh joy

[Cymraeg_Atodeg]

Two local council/poltical wallah types, one of whom is a liberal type who works for the "safer stronger communities partnership" doubtless usual state funded wazzocks who've never done owt proper.

The third candidate is a retired copper and lists his political leaning as independant... seems more suitable.

Having ex-Police officers doing the job who are fully independant is really the only way the PCC position would work

[TamSV]

I agree party politics would be best left out of it, but this is one of those situations where party affiliation may not matter too much, IF you get the right candidate.

A strong enough individual in a position like this can do much that their greater party might not agree with. There's no "whip" to worry about and, if the voting public like what they're doing, there's no chance that their party would deselect them.

Look at the London Mayor. Neither Ken or Boris are cardboard cut-outs for their respective political party.

I like my politics local so I hope this is a roaring success and we emulate it in Scotland.

Is there a more general distrust of local democracy? I was surprised at the rejection of local mayors in the English regions earlier in the year. I think that was an opportunity missed.

[garynortheast]

I have the wonderful choice between two Westminster affiliated candidates - some woman from the Labour party or some Tory knob (Christopher Tangye Robert Salmon!!). I can see a spoiled ballot paper coming up.

[daveangel]

Had one leaflet about it which tells you nowt except 'it's all online', how the older generation without internet access who are likely to take the trouble to vote will find out who is standing isn't explained. It isn't going to help the fast declining numbers of boys and girls on the frontline at all, it's just another excuse for politicians to interfere with the running of the police.

[dizzyblonde]

Is that what the vote things were for? Ummm no information whatsoever about what they were for!

[squirrel_hunter]

Also looking at the website they top pay for the PCC is £100,000 which is about 4 new PCs not best value for money.

Multiplied by the number of forces... However I'm not sure how this compares with the cost of the current system, be interested to know?

To be honest I think the role is overdue. Currently we have police committees directing our police forces. Who is elected to this committee is determined by jobs for the boys within whatever local council runs your area. So at least this way, the service users get to decide who is responsible for their local plod. As such it should be free from the political infighting and petty agendas of local politics.

But how do we keep it free of political infighting if the system has resulted in the vast majority of candidates being affiliated to the mainstream parties?

Is there a more general distrust of local democracy? I was surprised at the rejection of local mayors in the English regions earlier in the year. I think that was an opportunity missed.

I don't distrust local democracy. I distrust party politicians at both local and national levels, and for good reason. On the subject of the proposals of local elected Mayors, I was pleased to see most of them failed as in my opinion they would be a total waste of time and money with no benefit.

[TamSV]

I don't distrust local democracy. I distrust party politicians at both local and national levels, and for good reason.

That's one of the reasons I like to keep them where I can see them. ;)

[carpet monster]

I would expect the service provided by the police to be the same, or better, no matter who gets voted in to this role.

[Cymraeg_Atodeg]

I don't distrust local democracy. I distrust party politicians at both local and national levels, and for good reason. On the subject of the proposals of local elected Mayors, I was pleased to see most of them failed as in my opinion they would be a total waste of time and money with no benefit.

That's one of the reasons I like to keep them where I can see them. ;)


These are the reasons why the PCC that do get voted in need to be independant of party politics.

If anyone with the backing of a political party ends up in any PCC position it is just going to come down to political back-biting and a worse state of affairs for the general public & Police Force in that area

[TamSV]

These are the reasons why the PCC that do get voted in need to be independant of party politics.

If anyone with the backing of a political party ends up in any PCC position it is just going to come down to political back-biting and a worse state of affairs for the general public & Police Force in that area

I don't think that's necessarily true. It's more down to the individual you get for a position like this. I'd certainly agree you shouldn't be voting along party lines but for the best candidate.

You can't keep politics out of one of the most important functions of the state and I don't see why you would want to.

A police force with no political oversight is a much more dangerous proposition.

[Cymraeg_Atodeg]

I don't think that's necessarily true. It's more down to the individual you get for a position like this. I'd certainly agree you shouldn't be voting along party lines but for the best candidate.

You can't keep politics out of one of the most important functions of the state and I don't see why you would want to.

A police force with no political oversight is a much more dangerous proposition.

Having, in my opinion would be, a political "puppet" at the head of a police authority will lead to the detriment of the force and the local populous.

Anyone with any political affiliation will be governed by people without the needed knowledge to run a force at peak efficiency and they will be expected to "tow the party line," again, something which can, and most likely will, be to the ill of all those under that persons "control."

The Police Forces don't need someone political at the helm, they need someone with the experience of what the force does, what the geographical needs are and knows the demands of the local people.

A majority of PCC candidates are people that don't know the first iota about what the forces are needed to do and what they can do.

Someone who is ex-Police and has no political backing is the right person for the job. They have the experience and will not be "swayed" by their allegiance to any given political idealism

[Fizzy Fish]

I don't know who the candidates are in my area - not seen any leaflets, posters or other vote-for-me type stuff.

Same here. Frustrating, as it would be nice to know WTF I was voting for! Chances are I won't bother to vote as a result, and neither will may others.

With the London Mayoral elections, at least you get a booklet with a page allocated to each candidate to telling you about themselves and their policies.

All I've had is my postal vote card with names of candidates and the party they represent. This has confused me even further - surely I am voting for a cop/someone to run the local Police service, not some political party?? Is there a set way of doing things depending on your party? And WTF might that be?

Even if you do have to have party politics involved, I'd at least like to know a bit about the person that I'm voting for and what they plan to do.

shame on you Electoral Commission, this is a total shambles...

[yorkie_chris]

A police force with no political oversight is a much more dangerous proposition.

They are still subject to enforcing the law of the land, might even be a good thing.

I'd guess the police know more about crime than politicians...

[Cymraeg_Atodeg]

Same here. Frustrating, as it would be nice to know WTF I was voting for! Chances are I won't bother to vote as a result, and neither will may others.

With the London Mayoral elections, at least you get a booklet with a page allocated to each candidate to telling you about themselves and their policies.

All I've had is my postal vote card with names of candidates and the party they represent. This has confused me even further - surely I am voting for a cop/someone to run the local Police service, not some political party?? Is there a set way of doing things depending on your party? And WTF might that be?

Even if you do have to have party politics involved, I'd at least like to know a bit about the person that I'm voting for and what they plan to do.

shame on you Electoral Commission, this is a total shambles...

Unfortunately this seems to be all too common. In the South Wales and Gwent Force areas there is quite a fair bit of campaigning going on, both on TV, in the papers and on the radio.

Gwent especially, I know of one candidate that is doing door to door canvassing to make sure as many people in the area knows what the PCC elections are for and why they need to vote for the idependent candidate

They are still subject to enforcing the law of the land, might even be a good thing.

I'd guess the police know more about crime than politicians...


From what I have seen they are only good at committing crimes and they saying all the MPs are doing it...

[TamSV]

They are still subject to enforcing the law of the land, might even be a good thing.

I'd guess the police know more about crime than politicians...

True, but the laws of the land are passed by politicians so the separation of politics and policing is impossible (unless you want the police drafting laws and creating their own powers).

Politicians shouldn't be involved in specific investigations - who to arrest, who to charge, who to release. The PCC's won't be doing that.

But politicians can, and should, decide what the overall priorities should be. In principle I see no reason why those decisions could not best be made locally, from an identifiable source that is subject to scrutiny and can be re-elected or booted out based on their record by the citizens who are directly affected.

Police resources are finite so choices need to be made. Do you police the towns in favour of the countryside? Do you target burglary, street drinking, motoring, vandalism? These decisions need to be made anyway. Personally I'd like to know who is making them and, if I don't like the decisions, I'd like to be able to do something about it.

[yorkie_chris]

Aye but I say better these are done by someone insulated from the petty squabbling and bullsh*t associated with politics.

Like I say, we've a choice of 2 (party approved...) wazzocks who work for the council knitting lettuces, or an ex copper (independant).

[TamSV]

Aye but I say better these are done by someone insulated from the petty squabbling and bullsh*t associated with politics.

Like I say, we've a choice of 2 (party approved...) wazzocks who work for the council knitting lettuces, or an ex copper (independant).

Fair do's, if the candidates in your area are useless you've got a hopeless choice.

Hopefully, the profile of the job will reach a level where it attracts better candidates. It might take the tenure of a few incompetents around the country to get folk worked up a bit and realise this is important.

If not, stand yourself. :D

[Luckypants]

Same here. Frustrating, as it would be nice to know WTF I was voting for! Chances are I won't bother to vote as a result, and neither will may others.Since this thread started I had a quick google to see who was standing for N. Wales PCC, the BBC has a decent page with links to the various candidates websites etc. Some more googling and I have found out quite a lot about the candidates. We should all do this and find out for ourselves*

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-19507688

*Not directed at you in particular FizzyFish, just a handy quote to hang it on/

[timwilky]

I think the biggest issue is that the information is only available to the net connected. This effectively removes choice as those who want to vote but lack knowledge of the individuals and their policies will go by political affiliation.

As an example. my candidate for the position in Lancashire happens to be the UKIP candidate. Whilst I would normally vote blue, the idiot responsible for 20mph on our main roads and the proliferation of speed cameras etc is the blue candidate. No way would he get my vote. and the red one just wants to talk about diversity

[Fizzy Fish]

I think the biggest issue is that the information is only available to the net connected.


Not just those who are not net connected, but even those who use the web and (like myself) had looked on the local Police Authority website in the mistaken belief that there might actually be some info on there - nope!

the BBC has a decent page with links to the various candidates websites etc. /

Good call, have managed to find some decent info there

[Cymraeg_Atodeg]

I think the biggest issue is that the information is only available to the net connected. This effectively removes choice as those who want to vote but lack knowledge of the individuals and their policies will go by political affiliation.

As an example. my candidate for the position in Lancashire happens to be the UKIP candidate. Whilst I would normally vote blue, the idiot responsible for 20mph on our main roads and the proliferation of speed cameras etc is the blue candidate. No way would he get my vote. and the red one just wants to talk about diversity

As I have said in a previous post the information available about the PCCs seems to vary wildly between regions.

For the Gwent and South Wales Forces there have been TV interviews on the news, in the papers and on the radio

Some of the candidates are holding meetings the public can come to so they can ask questions, as well as walking door to door, talking to the local people and passing out leaflets in city centres

I think it comes down to the candidates you have running. A lot of places have political "no bodies" or those in the twilight of their careers.

Some candidates are really putting their all into these elections and getting the information out there for the Force they want to represent.

It is sad to hear they are not all like that considering the ramifications the change will have

[squirrel_hunter]

So with less than a day to go I still haven't decided what to do.

I have read some interesting views here from both sides of the argument so thanks all for that. And it has prompted me to do a little more research to find out who my candidates are as the only literature I've received apart from a government leaflet was from the Conservatives. So a quick search on the BBC gave me my candidates and a little about them and their pledges.

I have ruled out the Conservative, Lib Dem, Labour, and UKIP candidates based on what I've read here any my own political persuasions. So that leaves me with a choice of two independents. The first one is an Anti-Police Corruption Campaigner, though I never seen anything corrupt from my local force. The second is apparently some sort of Civil Servant type that I'm not sure has any real police experience, but is standing on an anti privatisation platform.

The trouble is none of those candidates fills me with any confidence and on the basis I've heard nothing from any of them, I don't know if they have any confidence in themselves either.

I'm left in my opinion with no candidate to vote for. So should I turn up and spoil my ballot with "No Suitable Candidate" or should I just not bother with the whole process?

[tigersaw]

I'm voting for Gene Hunt

[Luckypants]

I'm left in my opinion with no candidate to vote for. So should I turn up and spoil my ballot with "No Suitable Candidate" or should I just not bother with the whole process?

If you feel that way then yes, that gives the message you are engaged but none of the candidates are worthy of your vote. It should make them think.

[yorkie_chris]

I'm left in my opinion with no candidate to vote for. So should I turn up and spoil my ballot with "No Suitable Candidate"

Yes, it's as good as a vote, one way to make yourself heard a little.

[Cymraeg_Atodeg]

So with less than a day to go I still haven't decided what to do.

I have read some interesting views here from both sides of the argument so thanks all for that. And it has prompted me to do a little more research to find out who my candidates are as the only literature I've received apart from a government leaflet was from the Conservatives. So a quick search on the BBC gave me my candidates and a little about them and their pledges.

I have ruled out the Conservative, Lib Dem, Labour, and UKIP candidates based on what I've read here any my own political persuasions. So that leaves me with a choice of two independents. The first one is an Anti-Police Corruption Campaigner, though I never seen anything corrupt from my local force. The second is apparently some sort of Civil Servant type that I'm not sure has any real police experience, but is standing on an anti privatisation platform.

The trouble is none of those candidates fills me with any confidence and on the basis I've heard nothing from any of them, I don't know if they have any confidence in themselves either.

I'm left in my opinion with no candidate to vote for. So should I turn up and spoil my ballot with "No Suitable Candidate" or should I just not bother with the whole process?

I agree with Luckypants and Chris,

You should vote by not voting and marking your ballot as you have said.

I am sorry to hear there is no-one in your Police Force area that is suitable for the position.

Ideally there would be someone who is independent and is ex-Police who can fill the role with the knowledge needed and have the experience to do the job.

Gwent Police Force are lucky in that they have one such candidate running, as do Kent, but, they are the lucky few

[Bri w]

Tough one for Cleveland...

A candidate who openly admits he's standing a the Labour candidate, "and don't let anyone tell you politics won't play a part in the role." So he doesn't intend to distance himself from party politics(?).

A candidate who was wrongfully jailed whilst serving as a Police officer but doesn' mention it anywhere in his blurb.

A candidate who, although he has party affiliations, has paid his £5k deposit out of his own pocket to show the electorate he is independant of the party he's served for many years...

Looks like a spoilt paper from me.

[yorkie_chris]

And Yorkshire, ex DI who lists himself as independant

[Cymraeg_Atodeg]

And Yorkshire, ex DI who lists himself as independant

Is he who you'll be voting for Chris?

I don't know of who all the independants are, I just know Gwent Force as that is where my family is and Kent because I heard about that too...

[dizzyblonde]

I'm voting for Gene Hunt


May as well here too!

Still not got any information as far as this ere voting is concerned, and besides the voting cards are somewhere in a pile of paperwork, which I can't be bothered looking in, and I can't be bothered to go out in the cold to vote on something somebody couldn't be bothered giving me the information about!

[MisterTommyH]

If you don't like any of them I think it's always better to turn up and spoil your ballot. The number of spoiled ballots (and I think the manner in which they are spoiled) is recorded.

Imagine the statement it would send if we got 100% turnout with 80% spoiled ballots rather than just the apathy of 20% turn out - that really would show that the public didn't agree with the change and/or candidates.

Personally I think it should be a legal requirement to vote or at least turn up to the poll station (exceptions like being in hospital etc) - maybe there could be some incentive like a 10% council tax surcharge on those that can't be bothered to walk the 5 minutes to the ballot box.

[dizzyblonde]

How can you vote when you've neither seen the face or read anything about the people requiring a vote?

Because their name sounds nice?

Spoiling it, is a bit pointless in this situation, as if you were to be given the information required you could then make an informative choice......or spoil it.

[MisterTommyH]

You can turn up and write "I've received no literature so don't know who to vote for".

Or, in this multimedia age you can go on http://www.choosemypcc.org.uk/

I agree there's not been much publicity / coverage, but if someone can find this forum they are capable of finding that page. There are those that don't have the internet, but in reality that's probably a very low figure and the argument is an excuse for those without the wish to participate.

[dizzyblonde]

For those with computer knowledge maybe so......but its not for me to going out and seeking that information, they want me to vote, then prepare it properly and give it to me.

As for the low figure.....I can tell you my 85 yr old gran doesn't have the internet, and wouldn't know what to do with it......along with the vast majority of retired/elderly, so again, wouldn't go seeking the information required, as they most certainly would expect it to be given to them in black and white

[Bri w]

If someone has the whit to start an internet campaign to ensure Simon Cowell doesn't get the number 1 at Xmas there must be someone out there that could do the same with this.... althought with less than 12hrs to go its a bit late...

[Cymraeg_Atodeg]

For those with computer knowledge maybe so......but its not for me to going out and seeking that information, they want me to vote, then prepare it properly and give it to me.

As for the low figure.....I can tell you my 85 yr old gran doesn't have the internet, and wouldn't know what to do with it......along with the vast majority of retired/elderly, so again, wouldn't go seeking the information required, as they most certainly would expect it to be given to them in black and white

The fact there are some people that can't go out and get the information is the exact reason some of the Independent PCC candidates have gone to people's homes to give them information and talk to them, giving the knowledge they need to make an informed decision

[dizzyblonde]

The fact there are some people that can't go out and get the information is the exact reason some of the Independent PCC candidates have gone to people's homes to give them information and talk to them, giving the knowledge they need to make an informed decision


Have they?

Not here they haven't. When its vote time my gran always asks me if I've been, as she sees it very important. So why has she not mentioned this at all, bearing in mind she lives three doors away, and I see her rather often?

Those in your area, I should imagine are the lucky few!

[yorkie_chris]

Is he who you'll be voting for Chris?

I don't know of who all the independants are, I just know Gwent Force as that is where my family is and Kent because I heard about that too...

The other options are party affiliated political do-nowts by the sounds of them.

Maybe I'm judging them unfairly by their brief CVs on the sites like.

[Cymraeg_Atodeg]

Have they?

Not here they haven't. When its vote time my gran always asks me if I've been, as she sees it very important. So why has she not mentioned this at all, bearing in mind she lives three doors away, and I see her rather often?

Those in your area, I should imagine are the lucky few!

I didn't say everywhere and it is sad to hear that there are PCCs not putting the effort in to even earn the position.

Hopefully lessons will be learnt for the shambles this campaining has been for some for the next time around


The other options are party affiliated political do-nowts by the sounds of them.

Maybe I'm judging them unfairly by their brief CVs on the sites like.

I never think you can judge someone harshly if that is all the information they are will to give you. What are they trying to hide by not putting more?

I am in the camp of there should be no-one with any political party affiliation within the position of PCC, it will only lead to the position becoming either a beacon for one party or a cross to crucify for the opposing parties...

[yorkie_chris]

Well to be fair they have enough info on there to see that they've worked in council funded things and stuff that has the word "committee" in it rather than proper stuff, and I think balls to yer. I've seen the local council at work with well paid, pencil necked c***s doing nowt but fairy *rse around gobbing each other off, reckon somebody who's held at least one proper job is as good as... dunno whether he was a good copper or not like but got to be better than some dirty red or liberal eh.


I would obviously rather elect a retired engineer who rather than give ASBO's would burn scroats as fuel to turn a steam engine or send them down't pit but you can't win them all.

[tigersaw]

So Gene Hunt mixed with Guy Martin and Judge Pickles

[yorkie_chris]

So Gene Hunt mixed with Guy Martin and Judge Pickles

That would be awesome.

I remember seeing that Judge Pickles when he was on have i got news for you... halifax born too...

[squirrel_hunter]

Tonight I had to battle my way through crowds and had to queue for hours to finally cast my vote into an overflowing ballot box.

Not quite.

I was greeted with open arms by the station attendees like I was the rescue party making contact after being stranded on a snowy mountain for 3 weeks, like the first sign of outside life. I must have been a disappointment to them. They hadn't seen that many people the entire day, but 4 dogs had dragged their owners into vote by the point I have been there. Heat, OK, and Hello had all been read front to back 31 times and the staff had resorted to drawing mustaches on their favorite "celebrities". After a bit of a chat to try and boost their spirits for the remaining hours of isolation I left them with the idea of judging the attending electorate in a X Factor stylee...

And finally for the record, "No Suitable Candidate" got my vote.

[BigBaddad]

I got a polling card,but no info on the 5 candidates in my area. Wish I had done my research as the UKIP guy is da man.

http://www.choosemypcc.org.uk/wp-content/uploads/2012/10/Matthew-Smith-UKIP-231x300.jpg

Chevy Chase?

and I'm sure I've seen the LibDem candidate on Bargain Hunt

http://www.choosemypcc.org.uk/wp-content/uploads/2012/10/jj_web-246x296.jpg

Boris Johnson's brother

http://www.choosemypcc.org.uk/wp-content/uploads/2012/10/sbett-224x300.jpg

Prince Andrew

http://www.choosemypcc.org.uk/wp-content/uploads/2012/10/Jamie-Athill-246x246.jpg

And this guys spend's all his time on Autumn Watch

http://www.choosemypcc.org.uk/wp-content/uploads/2012/10/heads-2-246x271.jpg

[Spank86]

16% turn out in one area.

They shouldnt be allowed to elect anyone based on that.

[Sir Trev]

Tonight I had to battle my way through crowds and had to queue for hours to finally cast my vote into an overflowing ballot box.

Not quite.

I was greeted with open arms by the station attendees like I was the rescue party making contact after being stranded on a snowy mountain for 3 weeks, like the first sign of outside life.

Sounds familiar. At 6 last night I was only voter 66... :smt015

[Shawthing]

16% turn out in one area.

They shouldnt be allowed to elect anyone based on that.

Correct.

13.5% turn out in Greater Manchester.
And yes, i didn't vote for the very reasons:
1) No real info from candidates. Even when internet searching only came up with glib one lines from some of the candidates.
2) Some candidates were not even turning up at the husting.

[Fruity-ya-ya]

I live next door to a polling station, about a 100m walk to the ballet box and my next door neighbours didn't vote.

Need I say more :(

[dizzyblonde]

With such poor turnout, they will still go ahead, which imo is wrong.

At a cost of 75 million?
The excuse given this morning was people take time to warm to an idea such as this....... No, people have to get used to being forced upon. Even the candidates are raising concerns!

[Spank86]

To be fair I had the opportunity to speak to someone knowledgable on the subject yesterday morning and apparently it should be both cheaper than the current committee system and if the right people are elected, better.

still didnt get round to voting though, was dark and cold by the time i got home from work.

[TamSV]

I'm genuinely surprised by the tone of this thread. I could understand if folk didn't like the details of these changes or had a preferred alternative. Unless you feel everything is already spot-on in terms of policing, then fair enough I suppose.

But the complaints mainly seem to be about too much democracy being thrust upon you and, it seems, a fairly strong desire for a police force that has no democratic accountability. Be careful what you wish for.

Gobsmacked. Honestly.

[Bri w]

I'm genuinely surprised by the tone of this thread. I could understand if folk didn't like the details of these changes or had a preferred alternative. Unless you feel everything is already spot-on in terms of policing, then fair enough I suppose.

But the complaints mainly seem to be about too much democracy being thrust upon you and, it seems, a fairly strong desire for a police force that has no democratic accountability. Be careful what you wish for.

Gobsmacked. Honestly.

My genuine concern is the potential, open, political alignment to the local politically aligned Council and MP. The now old version saw the Chief Constable responsible to the Home Secretary - accountability was there and was consistent across the country. We now have a PCC that, potentially, won't reflect the national 'way' because he's a Labour candidate who openly canvased the position as a political one. Quote, "this is a political position and don't let anyone tell you otherwise." And, "this govt has ..... and as the Labour candidate I will...." And he is now the guy that is going to be telling the Chief Constable what he wants.

If it was genuinely free of politics I wouldn't have a problem with it at all, and in truth would welcome it.

I'm not sure we have democracy when the candidate reflects a party and not the people?

[dizzyblonde]

Somewhere in deepest darkest Wales, there was a zero percent turnout...not one vote! Wonder how that works now, pick a name out of a hat?

[Bluepete]

Technically, I'm not allowed to discuss this.

So read some of these posts instead.


http://inspectorgadget.wordpress.com/

Pete ;)

[flymo]

I voted, I wasn't going to due to lack of information and not knowing much about the candidates. But I sat down, read what I could find and dropped my vote off last night.

I must admit, I was also swayed by the candidates political representation. IMO, a well qualified independent candidate ranks higher than a party political representative for this role. Independence from both the police and the political parties was important to me.

[punyXpress]

We missed a trick there:
" The deposits will be returned to those who get at least 5 per cent of the vote, "
That should have read: . . of the available votes, in which case virtually all the candidates would have lost their deposits.
Have to disagree with TamSV: if you replace a carp system with another carp system, where is the progress? It's only the depth that varies.
Will be interesting to see how many of the elected candidates choke when having to swear that they will act to the benefit of all, regardles of political affiliations

[punyXpress]

Technically, I'm not allowed to discuss this.

So read some of these posts instead.


http://inspectorgadget.wordpress.com/

Pete ;)

Pete: did inspector gadget REALLY mean to say " ********us election campaigns " ?

[Spank86]

Somewhere in deepest darkest Wales, there was a zero percent turnout...not one vote! Wonder how that works now, pick a name out of a hat?
couldn't they even vote for themselves?

[flymo]

Somewhere in deepest darkest Wales, there was a zero percent turnout...not one vote! Wonder how that works now, pick a name out of a hat?

It may have been a predominantly postal vote area. Less than 100 people visited our local polling station in a large built up area, but then we use postal votes so hardly surprising.

[NTECUK]

http://www.fanboy-confidential.com/wordpress/wp-content/uploads/2010/09/judgedredd.jpg
This Guy had a convincing argument and got my vote.

[Biker Biggles]

The thing about democracy is that it is worthless unless it has legitimacy.Im not sure what level of public participation constitutes a "quorum" for an election to have legitimacy,but I think well under 20%turnout with the winner getting 6% is probably not good enough.Now it may be that we should be looking at how the police are governed,but this system appears to fall short of what the public want or need.Perhaps we should accept it has been a wrongun and think again.

[TamSV]

The thing about democracy is that it is worthless unless it has legitimacy.Im not sure what level of public participation constitutes a "quorum" for an election to have legitimacy,but I think well under 20%turnout with the winner getting 6% is probably not good enough.Now it may be that we should be looking at how the police are governed,but this system appears to fall short of what the public want or need.Perhaps we should accept it has been a wrongun and think again.

Funnily enough, I was reading last night that Paul Kagame got re-elected as President of Rwanda with 95% of the vote on a 97% turnout. I understand he's **** hot on law and order too =;. If only we had such a system :rolleyes:.

Seriously though, you can't really ascribe positive views to those who couldn't be arsed to turn up. There was a by-election in Manchester that only got 18% - that surely doesn't mean they shouldn't have an MP?

You're right though, turnout is shocking and the number of spoiled papers seems high. I'm clearly on the unpopular end of this particular argument. It makes me wonder if giving democracy to people who don't want it is actually undemocratic :rolleyes:. Is poor turnout a vote for no votes?

[Messie]

I didn't turn out to vote precisely because I have a democratic right not to. Normally I do vote whenever requested to do so, but I have such a huge disagreement with both this new 'position' which overturns a (IMO) working system, and the way in which the whole election was administered.

I did seriously consider turning up and expressing my opinion by spoiling the ballot paper - they HAVE to count and read all of these, and that could have made my point. However, having looked at the mockery of the publicity and talking to others I decided that contributing to the embarassingly low turn out could end up as being a more effective protest. I recognise that the raw statistics have no way of discriminating between apathy and deliberate no show, but that's something that just has to be tolerated.

The Electoral Comission is now looking into this, so maybe it has had an effect

[TamSV]

My genuine concern is the potential, open, political alignment to the local politically aligned Council and MP. The now old version saw the Chief Constable responsible to the Home Secretary - accountability was there and was consistent across the country. We now have a PCC that, potentially, won't reflect the national 'way' because he's a Labour candidate who openly canvased the position as a political one. Quote, "this is a political position and don't let anyone tell you otherwise." And, "this govt has ..... and as the Labour candidate I will...." And he is now the guy that is going to be telling the Chief Constable what he wants.

If it was genuinely free of politics I wouldn't have a problem with it at all, and in truth would welcome it.

I'm not sure we have democracy when the candidate reflects a party and not the people?

I've said before I wouldn't rule out a candidate because they were representing a party, but for the particular case you mention there Bri, I totally agree with you. He's trying to make party political points about national govt when the job in hand has got little to do with that. He's totally missing the point, as has anyone who votes for him.

As to not reflecting the national "way", that's the best bit as far as I'm concerned. Everyone starts in the same place and tries different things. So Bristol takes a radical approach and solves a problem that Swindon are still struggling with. So Swindon maybe take a few leaves out of Bristol's book but tweak things to suit their own particular situation. By trying lots of different things from a similar starting point maybe we'll end up with some genuinely good ideas.

We only need a couple of trailblazers in a few areas and then people hopefully won't settle for that dim-witted fandango from Labour and his like.

It does mean we will have winners and losers (and nobody wants to be the loser) but the alternative is the homogeneous, mediocre, PC-laden ******** that heavily centralised government tends to deliver.

[BigBaddad]

15% turn out here in Norfolk.

Potentially that could mean only 3 people in 100 eligible to vote did so for each candidate.

[squirrel_hunter]

But the complaints mainly seem to be about too much democracy being thrust upon you and, it seems, a fairly strong desire for a police force that has no democratic accountability.

I don't think its an objection to democracy, its just if this type of democracy is needed. As for the lack of democratic accountability of the Police, I think Bri sums it up well for me:

The now old version saw the Chief Constable responsible to the Home Secretary - accountability was there and was consistent across the country.

May be more accountability is needed or more powers given to the Home Secretary, with of course checks and balances. I just don't know if this PCC solution is that democracy or accountability.

The thing about democracy is that it is worthless unless it has legitimacy.

And now that is becoming the bigger issue. For me here in Wiltshire the turn out was 15.3% according to the BBC, and that figure does not cover spoiled ballots. So the chap who has been "elected" has only captured some 7% of the eligible vote. What sort of mandate is that?

So Bristol takes a radical approach and solves a problem that Swindon are still struggling with. So Swindon maybe take a few leaves out of Bristol's book but tweak things to suit their own particular situation.

I'm not quite sure what problem Swindon has that Bristol has solved?

[punyXpress]

I'm not quite sure what problem Swindon has that Bristol has solved?

Too many squirrels? ;)

[TamSV]

I'm not quite sure what problem Swindon has that Bristol has solved?

Nor am I. That was a hypothetical benefit that might be gained if police authorities (and schools/hospitals/councils) were allowed to do their own thing rather than all following the same instructions from the centre.

The town's were random. Bristol and Swindon were the first two English towns that popped into my head. I have no explanation for this. :)

[squirrel_hunter]

Nor am I. That was a hypothetical benefit that might be gained if police authorities (and schools/hospitals/councils) were allowed to do their own thing rather than all following the same instructions from the centre.

The town's were random. Bristol and Swindon were the first two English towns that popped into my head. I have no explanation for this. :)

But don't they have that at the moment? There are Councils, Local Police Authorities, NHS Trust, LEA's, etc. They all do their own thing, some more successfully then others but all with guidance from central government.

[squirrel_hunter]

I'm not quite sure what problem Swindon has that Bristol has solved?
Too many squirrels? ;)

I grew up in one and moved to the other. You might well be on to something...

[dirtyred619]

Me and my girlfriend were lucky enough to man a polling station yesterday for over 15 hours. We had 48 voters all day and 1 of them was my girlfriends. We worked it out at about 3% turnout on the day and with the postal votes on the list a maximum of 12%. Most of the voters that came in had no idea who or what they were really voting for either.

[grh1904]

As BLUEPETE has said, technically I'm not allowed to speak about this subject, but........

Most cops are viewing this with some suspicion, it worries us that politics will be brought into our jobs and it's likely to return to a creation of targets. I am aware of candidates (one who stood in my area but didn't get elected) said he wanted to increase arrests & convictions. A very dangerous statement to make: -

This removes an officers discretion, resulting in an officer making an arrest where he/she may have tried to resolve the situation by an alternative means, just because he/she now has a boss that has promised to increase arrests.

How can a PCC increase convictions?? Justice (who holds the scales) is blindfolded & rightly so. Each defendant is tried solely on the evidence. Say a jury of 12 men & woman are listening to the evidence & making their decisions accordingly. Does this now mean that the PCC will "influence" them, how does the PCC plan to do that?? The judicial system is free from persuauion by ANY party but here we have a PCC saying he will increase convictions.

One area that does worry us is the "more bobbies on the beat" quotes. Very good in theory but where are they going to come from??

I recently moved into a newly created post; there was in ancrease in the establishment for 'tecs in the domestic & child abuse investigation teams. In just a few weeks I've dealt with a female with a broken arm courtesy of her (now ex) partner, a rape, threats to kill & gone out to houses where the children were at serious of coming to harm (working in partnership with Social Services). in essence dealing with the MOST vulnerable in society. If I have to dig out & dust off my uniform to walk the streets so that a PCC can say "told you I'd put more cops on the streets", who deals with these vulnerable people???? or is society happy to let more baby P cases happen???