Do teachers work less hours?

[-Ralph-]

13 weeks holiday a year, often go home at 3:15pm

Answer the Poll BEFORE you read this link (http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2159173/70-teachers-nighter-prepare-lessons-according-survey-teaching-magazine-concludes-hours-rest-us.html). Then post in the thread and say whether the link changed your mind.

[Spank86]

13 weeks holiday a year, often go home at 3:15pm
[/URL]. The post in the thread and say whether the link changed your mind.

Not an accurate view of their work based on spending a childhood being dragged around behind a teacher mother, you wouldn't believe the hours I spent out of teaching time reading my way through the school library or playing frog/magicians castle on the schools BBC computers.


And that's not including the time working at home.

(Edited to include quote after clicking link)

[pookie]

I want to know what the other 30% were doing... link just confirms that 30% are working less hours.
There were 3127 secondary schools (2010) and 16971 primary schools (2009-2010) giving a total of 20,098 schools just in england.

http://www.cilt.org.uk/home/research_and_statistics/statistics/secondary_statistics/secondary_schools_in_uk.aspx
http://www.cilt.org.uk/home/research_and_statistics/statistics/primary_statistics/how_many_schools_and_pupils.aspx

A sample of 1600 teachers with only 1120 doing all nighters from potentially 407800 full time teachers ( 2004 figures probably more now) is very low.

With the data above, the link did not change my mind.. that said I commend anyone who has to fight at the front line teaching the yoof of today.
BTW there are hidden hours in all jobs.. its not unique to certain professions

[Spank86]

The other 30% were probably finishing at 11 and getting up early... OR they have been doing the job much longer so can reuse and adjust to update old lesson plans to save time. Still doesn't make it quick though.

[pookie]

nah I heard they just sharpen pencils..just grabbing my coat on my way out ;)

[Spank86]

Most of the sensible ones get a kid to do that.

[chezvegas85]

i was going to read the link, then i saw 'dailymail.co.uk', sorry, i just can't bring myself to do it. The line has to be drawn somewhere

[widepants]

they should try being self employed . Only getting paid for what you actually do,All those wasted hours running round doing qoutes , unpaid tax collector , no paid holidays , got to sort out your own pension , no sick pay , customers cancelling at the last moment . pfffft teachers.
and before you berate me , my better half is one

[-Ralph-]

i was going to read the link, then i saw 'dailymail.co.uk', sorry, i just can't bring myself to do it. The line has to be drawn somewhere

Which is why readers should ignore the Daily Fail's exaggerated headline which is clearly bolox, and focus on the results of the TES survey which, hopefully, they managed to represent black and white figures with some degree of accuracy.

[-Ralph-]

they should try being self employed . Only getting paid for what you actually do,All those wasted hours running round doing qoutes , unpaid tax collector , no paid holidays , got to sort out your own pension , no sick pay , customers cancelling at the last moment . pfffft teachers.
and before you berate me , my better half is one

Votey in da poll please! ^^^^^^^^^^^ ;-)

[andrewsmith]

I'll admit that i've looked at the link.
That is true, but Pookie beat me to it, goes for more than teaching. I've done from 6 to 8pm for no extra pay to get a handover done

[-Ralph-]

I'll admit that i've looked at the link.
That is true, but Pookie beat me to it, goes for more than teaching. I've done from 6 to 8pm for no extra pay to get a handover done

If you have an opinion then...

Votey in da poll please! ^^^^^^^^^^^ ;-)

I'd like to try and end up with a poll that reflects the orgs perception on the matter (perception being prior to reading the article, whether or not the article changes anybody's mind). If people just post an opinion in the thread but don't vote, we'll never get a reflecting poll result. Ta!

[MisterTommyH]

Not read the link yet. I have a lot of teacher friends and I reckon it balances out during the year.. (No poll optionn so won't vote)... Lots of work taken home for marking at certain times during term, but LOTS of holidays to balance it out. And yes some work does get done during hols, but not full time.

I also reckon that as you get more experianced and have your lesson plans from previous years you can recycle these (not saying not prepare, but certainly not starting from scratch as they are in early years).

The problem is that while good teacher do this work, there are also bad teachers who don't bother. And there is no recourse to tackle these bad teachers. None of my teacher friends could tell me when they heard of someone being disciplined / sacked for being rubbish (can you tell this has been discussed a lot).

Finally, I wouldn't want the job for all the world.

Edit:
TOP 10 'HARD-WORKING' PROFESSIONS

1. Production managers and directors of mining and energy firms - 49.6 hours
2. Teachers 48.3 hours
3. Advertising & PR directors - 42.2 hours
4. Financial Institution managers & directors - 40.9 hours
5. IT Engineers - 39.0 hours
6. Chief Executive Officers and solicitors - 38.5 hours
7. Medical practitioners 38.4 hours
8. HR managers & directors -38 hours
9. Barristers & judges - 36 hours
10. Accountants - 35.6 hours

I think they may have made the mistake of assuming that all other workers only work their contracted hours while teachers are the only ones taking work home or working over.

[Fallout]

Surely it depends on what they teach. English teachers may have to read lots of books, creative writing etc. But games teachers? What have they go to prepare? Math teachers? Every math lesson I had as a kid was going through text books and past paper. Drama teachers?

I would think that certain subjects are hardcore but many are much less so. If you're going to be a teacher, choose your subject wisely!

[missyburd]

All the hours spent at home marking books and exam papers?

[svrich]

The problem is that while good teacher do this work, there are also bad teachers who don't bother. And there is no recourse to tackle these bad teachers. None of my teacher friends could tell me when they heard of someone being disciplined / sacked for being rubbish (can you tell this has been discussed a lot).

There are now. The government have brought in new performance management procedures starting this September which mean that all teachers are monitored, through lesson observations etc, much more than ever before. Effectively a 'bad' teacher could find themselves jobless within a few weeks rather than months now - which isn't a bad thing but an already very stressful job just went up several notches.

And I have worked outside of teaching in several different jobs. I didn't really have a clue what fully fledged teaching was truly like even after a lot of voluntary work while at 6th form, and four years of teaching degree. The real-world classroom is a long way away from what almost everyone imagines it to be.
And working loco parentis for 30 children five days a week... 13 weeks holiday is a necessity.

[Jackie_Black]

It's very hard work and can make you sad quickly. The new performance management stuff is a disgrace and hopefully won't get passed by the unions. But at the moment i'm just happy to have a job!

[Bri w]

I've seen my mate's wife, a primary school teacher, grafting away many evenings. No they don't have an easy time but so what. I know how many hours I put in, and how many hours my engineers put in. There's no such thing as an easy life for the vast majority of workers these days.

[Gamblerdrum]

i was going to read the link, then i saw 'dailymail.co.uk', sorry, i just can't bring myself to do it. The line has to be drawn somewhere

Spot on

[Biker Biggles]

I've seen my mate's wife, a primary school teacher, grafting away many evenings. No they don't have an easy time but so what. I know how many hours I put in, and how many hours my engineers put in. There's no such thing as an easy life for the vast majority of workers these days.

Good point.If all employers actually had to pay their workers for all the hours put in,a lot of "ordinary" people would be on a lot of money.

[Jackie_Black]

I've seen my mate's wife, a primary school teacher, grafting away many evenings. No they don't have an easy time but so what. I know how many hours I put in, and how many hours my engineers put in. There's no such thing as an easy life for the vast majority of workers these days.

Agreed, my dad was an engineer, never stopped working! Working life is hard in general, don't need a bull**** dailymail survey to tell us that really.

[Teejayexc]

[QUOTE=widepants;2794727]they should try being self employed . Only getting paid for what you actually do,All those wasted hours running round doing qoutes , unpaid tax collector , no paid holidays , got to sort out your own pension , no sick pay , customers cancelling at the last moment . /QUOTE]


^this.

[tigersaw]

I dream of only working 50 hours or less per week

[Biker Biggles]

I dream of only working 50 hours or less per week

Luxury:smt090

We get up two hours before we went to bed,lick motorway clean wit tung,and consider ourselves lucky if boss dont kill us by afternoon.
Tell that to youngsters nowadays and they wont believe you.=;

[andrewsmith]

Luxury:smt090

We get up two hours before we went to bed,lick motorway clean wit tung,and consider ourselves lucky if boss dont kill us by afternoon.
Tell that to youngsters nowadays and they wont believe you.=;

;)
http://youtu.be/Xe1a1wHxTyo

Xe1a1wHxTyo

[joshwalker094]

Right not read any of the thread yet or link, but I said no, as I know a lot of my teachers do a lot of work in there own time nowadays from marking to planning the next lesson.

[aliwakeskate]

Some good opinions here. Tommy summed it up quite nicely in that overall it does seem to balance itself out. You work longer hours than you get paid for, but the compensation is the holidays. If I didn't get 13 weeks holiday I couldn't and wouldn't do the job.

My contract is 32.5 hours a week. Like most teachers, that's what I get paid for. If all I did was 32.5 hours a week then no marking, no extra curricular activities and no lesson planning would get done. This would make me a crap teacher and the kids would suffer for it and often do with crap teachers. Good teachers put in a lot of effort outside of the classroom to make sure they do a good job in the classroom and make it interesting for the kids - it's just that not many people see this. It's the the same as other jobs, like self employed tradespeople. They have to plan jobs, put quotes in, organise contractors, deal with customers, order materials and a whole host of other tasks that they don't get paid for outside of the job. But if they didn't do it, they would do a crap job and most likely not have any business!

Having worked in industry for 10 years previous to teaching I was contracted to 37.5 hours a week, but often worked 50 hours plus without extra pay to get contracts and projects completed. But, there was always an acknowledgement by the management and some sort of reward for putting in the extra graft in my own time. Whether it was the odd extra day off over Christmas or just a genuine thanks. Being acknowledged by seniors for going the extra mile was always a good motivator. It had to be done, but at least there was some reward. To be honest, in teaching there is no reward or acknowledgement for the extra effort as everyone has to do it and to some extent it is expected. This is the hidden aspect of teaching.

Another hidden aspect of teaching, like social workers and the emergency services, is the psychological affect. I work at an inner city school with challenging kids who turn up with a whole host of issues that you must deal with. This is very difficult to leave behind when you drive out of the gates and can have a huge impact on you. I have the utmost respect for social workers and other sectors that deal with this on a daily basis.

I always say that teachers are not looking for sympathy, but acknowledgement they do a challenging job like many other industries and sectors out there. Just because they finish at 3:30 and have 13 weeks holiday does not make it an easy job. Bri summed it up nicely saying "there is no such thing as an easy life for the vast majority of workers these days". Having worked plenty of other jobs before, I totally agree. As a teacher, I am sick of people having a pop saying we have an easy life. No one said that when I was an engineer, so why say it now I am a teacher. I work just as hard and am (hopefully) just as professional. I think teachers are an easy target because it is the only job that everyone has had some experience of because everyone has been to school (in western civilisation) and if you are a parent you constantly come into contact with teachers.

[MisterTommyH]

Tommy summed it up quite nicely in that overall it does seem to balance itself out.

It's the perspective you get from having lived with a teacher, but working in industry. Them bringing work home most nights when you're trying to wind down, then not being able to take leave when they're off because the people with kids have all booked it off.

I have to add that of my teaching friends there are those that make a LOT of noise about the hours they are putting in, and there are also those that don't. It is the opinion of one of the latter (a very good, destined to be a head) that if the noisy ones are really having to put in the hours they say then they're doing something wrong or making life hard for themselves.

[Bibio]

work lees hours than what?

my mate that starts work at 7am and finishes at 8pm 7 days a week.. errmmm no

a police man/woman.. again no

a doctor/nurse in a hospital.. again no

list could go on and on..

is a teachers job easy.. well compared to some, very easy.


schooling. too many bureaucrats forgetting what they are meant to be doing, which is teaching.

[Specialone]

they should try being self employed . Only getting paid for what you actually do, All those wasted hours running round doing qoutes , unpaid tax collector , no paid holidays , got to sort out your own pension , no sick pay , customers cancelling at the last moment .

I hear you there mate, it's bloody tough at times.

[Biker Biggles]

;)
http://youtu.be/Xe1a1wHxTyo

Xe1a1wHxTyo

Thats the one,Absolute classic and such a great insight into these kind of debates.:D

[yorkie_chris]

They work less hours than who?

I tend to spend my evenings doing what is probably about as (and usually more) strenuous as teachers evening jobs and I don't get months and months of paid holiday.


You pays your money and takes your choice.

[pookie]

and you dont get a cushie pension too ;)

[yorkie_chris]

OTOH I don't have to deal with kids you're not allowed to slap round the head if they're being annoying.

Think I'll stick to my oily lathes and CAD software eh :)

[widepants]

come on Chris , you cant do much work...you're always in here loafing about.

[BoltonSte]

No, didn't read the link, didn't have too...wife is a teacher.

4 or 5 weeks holiday (can't remember) officially...rest is expected to be used to prep work.
Starts at 8, finishes at 4...often doesn't have a lunch break.

If you are canny though, you can use some time at school and evenings (often until 10 at night) to do the prep work, then the time off school can be used as time off school...our relationship suffers, but it's better for the little un as she can do what she wants with him during the school holidays.

That doesn't include the extra effort required for parents evenings, art exhibitions, curriculum changes etc...

I do love it when parents at work complain because parents evenings don't run until 8 at night...I know what they'd say if I asked them to pick up a 12 hour shift.

Ste

[timwilky]

Many professions work extended hours. I left home this morning at 5.00am and do not expect to be back before 8pm. just to drive a desk in an office.


I grew up with my father dictating his reports all day sunday and each evening after dinner and as a consequence have a work ethic that says you put in the hours the job demands or until you eventually end up in hospital.

My staff get paid to work extended hours. I wish I did. No wonder the company is so against flexitime. If people who currently did unpaid overtime started recording and recovering their time it would cost a fortune.

I did like my fathers line to unreasonable people who expected him to examine their accident damage at their home after work/weekends.


Sorry sir/madam,

Whilst I understand why you may want your damaged vehicle examined on Sunday afternoon, but engineers tend to be unreasonable people who expect to spend their Sundays eating their lunch and spending their time off with their families.

[joe_f59]

I am a Physicist, i have obtained what is widely regarded as one of the hardest degrees imaginable. Have worked for E.S.A in space craft telemetry, as well as in the investment banking sector....

None of this is anywhere near as difficult and stressful as teaching... Yes i have just had half term holiday. Know what i did? Tonsillitis and a chest infection from being ruined by 12 hour days including at least 6 hours requiring levels of alertness that make your MOD 1 and MOD 2 exams seems like a sunday afternoon stroll after lunch.

[Owenski]

That is the biggest pile of **** I've ever read and a complete twisting of results.

Those teachers doing "an all nighter" have just proved 70% of teachers have **** poor organisation.
They're the ones doing the last minute prep because they're no doubt threatened with offstead inspections and panic'd into doing in one day the stuff they should have been doing in the other hours they have free while the rest of us are at work.

Wifes a teacher, head of her department as well. In addition to the hours she spends at work after classes finish she does maybe an hours work a night (usually 3 hours one night then 2 nights of nothing but it balances out to about 5 hours a week. During holidays she does maybe 1 day a week.
Thats it!

Point is; add the hours she's out of the house to the hours she does at home and that doesn't equal what I do on a normal working week and thats before you consider the additional hours which I put in myself.

I have no doubt in my mind teaching is bloody hard and extremely stressful especially dealing with little eedjits. I will NEVER contest that plain and simple they're saints for putting up with the gripe.
However in no way ever ever ever ever will I believe that they work more hours than I do, point is if they did then they'd chose an easier job. The leave and hours they get (and the amazing salary) is all compensation to the gripe I mentioned above.

In summary; When they work - they work harder than most under conditions I'd not relish but this is a question of time spent working and for me it'll always be that they dont come close to the hours in this industry.

[Messie]

If it's such an easy job, with so few hours, such amazing holidays and great salary, why aren't more people doing it?

[Owenski]

Just to add:
No one ever thinks they've got it easy. We will always protest we're underpaid - overworked etc. So teachers reading the above and thinking;

"pah typical private sector opinion of teaching, you don't have a clue what our jobs about".

You're right I don't, but nor do you know what this industry is like. I work around 10-12hours a week UNPAID! not for good grace not for kicks purely because if I don't then I'll never get anywhere. We're not entitled to cost of living increases nor graded salary bands, if we want more money we've got to earn our gaffer more money so he can reward us if he feels like it.
No union protects us and no workers cover our absence, miss a day and we've to work twice as hard on our return.

For those teachers still reading and no doubt thinking "well don't work the extra then if you don't get paid" that thought right there is the difference in mentality across our career choices... yes choices!

[yorkie_chris]

If it's such an easy job, with so few hours, such amazing holidays and great salary, why aren't more people doing it?

Not stupid enough to want to deal with a load of sawn off savages for a job...

[Owenski]

tbf Sally I don't see anyone saying its easy, by contrast I see a lot of people acknowledge that the job has some serious ****ty aspects.
However that's not the point of thread, this is a thread about hours spent doing the job.
Title says: "Do teachers work less hours?"
I'm assuming that I'm supposed to compare that to my own hours and in which case the answer when comparing my wifes hours to those of my own is simply, "Yes they work fewer hours".

[MisterTommyH]

^^^ (erm cross thread... This was right after Messies post)

I can't see where anyone has said that!

Some have said that they want to try being self employed.... Fair point.

Most have said that other professions work over their hours unpaid too (which is not reflected in the 'top 10' table)

Nearly all have said despite the (arguable fictitious) difference is hours / holidays they wouldn't want the hassles of the job.

Owenski and I have stated that from personal experience (partners and friends) we admit its not easy but close observation has shown those doing 'unbelievable' hours are either making it up, doing something very wrong or poorly organised. And yet we still wouldn't want your stress.

Doesn't stop me takin the **** out of teachers when they feel **** at the end of the holidays, or them out of me when they start holidays I don't get.

[Messie]

I knew I should've kept out of this thread!!

I get bothered by the my job is harder/longer/more stressfull etc etc etc stuff that gets spouted about (I'm guilty of it sometimes too)

As has been said earlier, lots of people work very very hard, sometimes for decent remuneration, sometimes barely.
It really shouldn't be a willy waving competition. We all (well most of us) do all we can to get by and progress in often trying circumstances.
I hate divisive threads :(

[MisterTommyH]

It's only a good harmless argument.

Seems to me most people admit all jobs are pretty **** (except a paramedic I know admits they have it pretty easy).

[Owenski]

Paramedic has it easy?? wtf I'd have peg'd that as a really really tough job!

As with all divisive threads its only because the subject is so hotly contested.

FTR I'm at a crossroads in my career and I've been giving serious thought to getting into teaching, all hinges on if I get accepted to do the masters next year or not. After all I'll still have my civil engineering to fall back on if I take up teaching and get a wet fish or realisation across my chops.

[MisterTommyH]

He does shifts, does get some **** at work, but unlike the rest of us (teachers, engineers, surveyors etc) when he's out the door it all gets left behind. He gets lots of paid overtime and gets extra money if a shout makes them miss a break. If you can face the **** the public give, and have a strong stomach, then I can see his point. Again, a job I would never be able to do.

[widepants]

lets ask another question then , just to poke a stick at it .How many people here get 6 months sick on full pay ,and 6 months on half pay ?

[Owenski]

Nope, not me.
I get 3 days self diagnosed, removed from the further 25 days if signed off by a doc, after that its at company discretion. (Basically if the gaffer thinks I'm full of it then he'll pay me squat).
Im not one of the luckiest but it sure as hell beats been self employed.

[andrewsmith]

Nope, not me.
I get 3 days self diagnosed, removed from the further 25 days if signed off by a doc, after that its at company discretion. (Basically if the gaffer thinks I'm full of it then he'll pay me squat).
Im not one of the luckiest but it sure as hell beats been self employed.

I get 6 months (3 full 3 half off the top of of me head) on a long term, 5 days self cert, we do get some renumeration on overtime (pre-agreed or call-outs).
Catch 22 call outs can be 24/7 365 if its a major incident and the wages are okay (Not going to say company)

[ahmedf]

work lees hours than what?

my mate that starts work at 7am and finishes at 8pm 7 days a week.. errmmm no

a police man/woman.. again no

a doctor/nurse in a hospital.. again no

list could go on and on..

is a teachers job easy.. well compared to some, very easy.


schooling. too many bureaucrats forgetting what they are meant to be doing, which is teaching.

:winner:

[Biker Biggles]

lets ask another question then , just to poke a stick at it .How many people here get 6 months sick on full pay ,and 6 months on half pay ?

Thats certainly an advantage if you are seriously ill or dying as it keeps you on pay for much longer than most,but it gets overplayed as a perk.Try actually taking that sort of sicky,and you will rapidly find yourself down the jobcentre.Employers both public and private soon "terminate" those who take sick above a much much lower level than that

[Spank86]

I wouldn't say a teacher salary is amazing, it's decent at the top end but not amazing (the pension on the other hand is bloody brilliant, wish we were all as lucky).

[-Ralph-]

Thanks for the replies.

Comments on 70 percent of teachers working through the night are as daft as the Daily Fail headline they derive from. If you read the article text thats not actually what it says.

Lots replies say that lots if jobs require lots of hours. I've always worked a Mon - Fri office job since I left Uni.

In that world 50 hours per week is 10 hours per day over a 5 day week. That means arriving at 8am and leaving at 6pm without stopping for lunch, or doing your 8 hours in the office, then getting your laptop out and doing another two in the evening, say 8 until 10 pm. 50 hours is (I think from memory) the working time directive legal limit and in the office world is about as much as anybody does regularly. In most cases they do that off thier own back, not because bosses expect it of them.

60 hours per week means 7am til 7pm with no break for lunch, or working 8 until 11pm in the evening on top of your normal 8 hours, or working weekends too.

To average 50 or 60 hours that has to be EVERY DAY, EVERY WEEK.

I've spent my career as an IT consultant working in other peoples offices and have worked in literally hundreds of different offices. I have NEVER seen one on normal 9-5 hours, that isnt practically deserted at 7am in the morning or 7pm at night.

I believe lots of professions have busy weeks and on occasionl hit 50+ hours. I dont believe lots of professions do that week in week out.

As for the other list of 10 professions in the article they all attract twice the salary of a teacher, if not 4 times in some cases.

Police constables, nurses, paramedics, firemen, etc though they have a very tough job work a shift, get changed, and go home. My perception anyway, maybe its as wrong as many of the teacher perceptions on here.

Manual workers or uniformed workers often do 12 hour shifts, but its usually 4 on 4 off, keeping them jhst under the 50 hour legal limit. Manual workers doing more usually get overtime.

My wife (Secondary languages teacher) is currently doing 60 hours per week, every week. She is perhaps abnormal because she puts so much into it, but then in her first year of teaching her students GCSE results were 20 percent higher than the previous year, and 12 percent higher than the school had ever achieved in languages. Now shes applying for office jobs like she used to do as neither her nor me can take it ant longer! (I have weeks that hit 60 hours for periods of time through the year too), and its not fair on our son. What a loss to the profession, because schools fail to recognise what the staff are having do and distribute workload accordingly.

Wouldn't you have liked your kid to have a teacher that improved his/her GCSE grades by 20 percent? :

Sent from my GT-I9300 using Tapatalk 2

[pookie]

Its a shame good teachers leave but I believe there is a time and place for people in certain careers. I don't fancy knee deep in the middle of winter digging holes.
Are there other schools that provide better / flexible environment for teaching staff. Certainly the physical abuse is something teachers shouldnt have to deal with. I'd love a 9-5 job and one that doesnt involve being on call and weekend work. If there is one with a pension then drop us a line :)

[Jackie_Black]

It does get easier!! NQT year is a nightmare. Eventually you stop doing every single thing for every single person and only focus on your own kids and lessons. I now also try to only work at work as we are supposed to be on work to rule (although I could never get down to 32.5 hours a week). As others have said all jobs are hard, no one ever notices in teaching though if you do 30 or 70 hours a week they only want to know about results.

[-Ralph-]

PS: After a 3 day residential trip where shes had 24 students in her care, which were awake from 6am and didn't settle to sleep until half midnight both nights despite several bolockings, Ive just hot home (7:50pm) and shes not here - parents evening.

Sent from my GT-I9300 using Tapatalk 2

[-Ralph-]

Pookie and Jackie, she used to do sales support for export companies, fulfilling orders and dealing with customers in French and Spanish speaking countries. She had a desk computer and phone, no laptop, no mobile, no remote access. She worked her contracted 37.5 hours and then walked away. Had a pension too. Earned the same salary as she gets now.

Sent from my GT-I9300 using Tapatalk 2

[svrich]

I knew I should've kept out of this thread!!

I get bothered by the my job is harder/longer/more stressfull etc etc etc stuff that gets spouted about (I'm guilty of it sometimes too)

As has been said earlier, lots of people work very very hard, sometimes for decent remuneration, sometimes barely.
It really shouldn't be a willy waving competition. We all (well most of us) do all we can to get by and progress in often trying circumstances.
I hate divisive threads :(

All of this. But to comment on the salary and pension side of the profession (and I know everyone has taken a salary hit recently) ours has been frozen for the last couple of years, and more to come, and the pensions have been completely restructured meaning that we pay more for longer and get less back. And we're about to get another knock too. With the retirement age rising to 65 and more, I know I won't be working to get my full pension. I signed up to a profession offering security through salary and pension - where's that gone?

[Spank86]

To be fair the pensions still going to be pretty good, just not quite as amazing as in past years.


Shortsighted really, today's wages are tomorrows profits.

[-Ralph-]

PS: After a 3 day residential trip where shes had 24 students in her care, which were awake from 6am and didn't settle to sleep until half midnight both nights despite several bolockings, Ive just hot home (7:50pm) and shes not here - parents evening.

Sent from my GT-I9300 using Tapatalk 2

She walked in the door 20 minutes ago, having eaten a McDonalds on the way home

6 am until 12:30 am Monday & Tuesday
6 am until 5pm Wednesday, then 2 1/2 hours at home last night
8:30 am until 8 pm Today, and now she sat in front of her f***ing laptop again preparing for tomorrow
It will be 8:30 am until hopefully 3:30pm tomorrow

So she'll have had a 71 hour week.

[Specialone]

No wonder she wants out mate, that's no way to live long term.

[yorkie_chris]

She must be mad.

What's the point of working if you haven't got time to fettle with bikes and dive kit/go to the pub/paint pictures/brush the dog/whatever makes you tick.?

[Biker Biggles]

She should keep a diary of hours worked and show it to the guvnor.If they do nothing about it they will be in breach of the EU working time directive(average of 48 hours per week averaged over IIRC three months)
There are other limits as well including a break after six hours and a minimum time off between finishing one days work and starting another.Employers cannot legally hide behind a nominal working week if the job cant be done in the time allowed.If she leaves after going through a grievance proceedure she could take a constructive dismissal case and might even win it.

[-Ralph-]

She must be mad.

What's the point of working if you haven't got time to fettle with bikes and dive kit/go to the pub/paint pictures/brush the dog/whatever makes you tick.?

Precisely. She has two ex colleagues who are doing exactly the same hours, but neither of them have kids, so while she is doing 3 hours a day at home normally starting at 8pm after the wee one is bathed and in bed, finishing at 11pm or midnight, her colleagues can start again straight after dinner and be finished by 9:30, which is more manageable, gives you an hour a day downtime in front of the TV, and doesn't impact on your sleep.

As for cooking, cleaning, ironing, kids packed lunch, feed/walking the dog/cat/rabbit, I'm doing the bloody lot and when I don't have time we live in a s**t tip.

[-Ralph-]

She should keep a diary of hours worked and show it to the guvnor.

They say it's down to her taking too long, ie: she should be doing it in 48 hours, not 60. They've promised her mentoring and training with more experienced teachers, but it's just been empty promises. In University now they teach you how to do these 'perfect' lessons which are all PowerPoint or SmartBoard, interactive, colourful, 'entertaining', with games and activities to keep the kids 'on task'. That's great in an ideal world, and last year got amazing GCSE results for her GCSE classes, but totally impractical when you've 26 lessons a week to prepare, plus writing reports or doing data entry on the kids, marking books, dealing with emails to parents, etc, etc. She needs to learn how to 'chalk and talk', like when we were at school we had a textbook and the teacher chalked it out on the blackboard, but she's getting no support at school and I can't help her at home because I haven't a clue about teaching, nor am I fluent in the languages she's teaching.

She's new to the profession and basically she's just sinking under workload, stress and pressure. Maybe she's not cut out for it.

When it comes to how much workload she has, they are just like 'Yeah? So what? That's what we all have to do.'

[Spank86]

@biggles, they'll just tell her to work less, after all the job can be done in less hours, just not to the same standard.

[yorkie_chris]

I reckon it's all bollox anyway, if she is passionate about teaching her subject the kids who want to learn will learn, the spastics will carry on drawing ***** on stuff... doesn't matter if she spends ages on some fancy powerpoint sh*te or just chalks and talks as you say... result always same, she's teaching not doing a sales conference.

[Biker Biggles]

@biggles, they'll just tell her to work less, after all the job can be done in less hours, just not to the same standard.
Get that in writing and get advice from an employment lawyer.Its not as if she has a poor record in terms of results,just the opposite,so get the school to tell her to work less and get worse results.Its exactly this attitude employers have that thay can have their cake and eat it that needs challenging.A good lawyer will explain how to go about making a case.

[svrich]

I think YC should head up Ofsted!

[Spank86]

Get that in writing and get advice from an employment lawyer.Its not as if she has a poor record in terms of results,just the opposite,so get the school to tell her to work less and get worse results.Its exactly this attitude employers have that thay can have their cake and eat it that needs challenging.A good lawyer will explain how to go about making a case.

They obviously wouldn't tell her to get worse results.

Basically teaching is teaching and there are thousands of teachers doing the same or similar jobs, I can't see her winning a tribunal case because the school isn't telling her to work all the hours and other teachers don't have to.

The only point she may be able to use is it sounds like she's not getting enough support from her mentor.

[Jackie_Black]

All teachers are currently meant to be working to rule, we are supposed to be working our hours and not doing anything extra unless we volunteer, this is in direct response to the pension stuff and if she is in a union they should have made this apparent, although i have found no one in primary is doing it at all whereas secondary are more clued up. The entire school are supposed to be only doing their jobs and no more, so no extra admin etc, only enter data once, blah blah blah. 70 hour weeks are supposed to be completely out of the question at the moment. The idea is supposed to show gove we aint happy. Unfortunately it's not going to go well and the unions are going to look silly.

[Milky Bar Kid]

All teachers are currently meant to be working to rule, we are supposed to be working our hours and not doing anything extra unless we volunteer, this is in direct response to the pension stuff and if she is in a union they should have made this apparent, although i have found no one in primary is doing it at all whereas secondary are more clued up. The entire school are supposed to be only doing their jobs and no more, so no extra admin etc, only enter data once, blah blah blah. 70 hour weeks are supposed to be completely out of the question at the moment. The idea is supposed to show gove we aint happy. Unfortunately it's not going to go well and the unions are going to look silly.

I'm sorry but, and what? Just because the union might have told her, if she is in one, it does not mean that she personally has to work to rule. That is a choice entirely up to the individual. She probably could cut down her hours but, correct me if I am wrong Ralph, it seems to me that she is incredibly dedicated and instead of doing the bare minimum, she wants to go that little bit further because she wants her pupils to learn the best way she can teach them.

To be honest, I find the teaching unions a bit selfish. I have a teacher friend who refused to strike last year. She was called a scab as she crossed the line. Unacceptable. The reason she chose to carry on teaching is because although your pensions are being changed, they are still going to be a reasonably good pension, and by teachers striking or working to rule, then kids of the future are suffering. It's their education that's getting messed with.

Yes, the govt has attacked my pension. Yes, my working conditions suck but you know what, I still don't work to rule and I am legally not allowed to strike. If I was to work to rule: dayshift, finished at 1700hrs...1705hrs, all other crews are committed with equally serious incidents and there is a report of a serious RTC, person trapped. I would turn my radio off and walk away if I was work to rule. However, I can't and WON'T do that. I joined this job knowing that life wouldn't be rosy and that I wouldn't always have the greatest working conditions. I seriously considered becoming a teacher before I joined the Police. 7 yrs ago, it was also apparent that teaching wasn't easy. Your job, and mine, are vocations. Or that's my opinion.

By the way, I'm not saying you do the bare minimum or that you are a bad teacher. I am talking in general.

[-Ralph-]

correct me if I am wrong Ralph, it seems to me that she is incredibly dedicated and instead of doing the bare minimum, she wants to go that little bit further because she wants her pupils to learn the best way she can teach them.

No you are bang on, she is a perfectionist, but that is part of her problem.

[Milky Bar Kid]

No you are bang on, she is a perfectionist, but that is part of her problem.

Very much like me. I am pretty experienced at what I do but I still find that even though I can do a report a bit quicker than most, overall, dealing with something takes me a little longer. Because I take pride in it.

[missyburd]

If you can face the **** the public give, and have a strong stomach, then I can see his point. Again, a job I would never be able to do.
Hit the nail on the head there. In every society there are only certain people who can do certain jobs, and if you happen to be too squeamish, too impatient, too disorganised, too much of a perfectionist etc. then a job you might set out to do with all good intentions just might not be right for you and you need to move on or you will continue to suffer for it. Justifying why some professions get away with the holidays and perks they get is irrelevant in my book, somebody has to do the jobs out there and who are we to question whether it's fair or not. I sure as hell wouldn't want to attempt to teach a bunch of reprobates who show no willing to learn without the added backup of brute force and whiteboard rubbers. The number of teachers at my old school who had to withdraw because of various nervous breakdowns was shocking, and yet completely understandable. The holidays are needed just for your own sanity!

I admire anyone who can stand up and teach kids, same as I admire anyone who can manage their own business and can fabricate metal stuff in their mind. It does however suck big donkey balls that the money available in certain professions means those that work extra have to do it for nowt.



Ralph, I can only imagine your missus has already considered private tutoring? Having another language is a such a massive advantage and more and more parents are looking at home schooling...then she'd be able to see more of your son on her terms.