View Full Version : Another test question.
Hi all,
i have just been reading a thread on the new test rules and was wondering
if i could book a test turn up on my restricted sv do the test pass ;)
Would this pass then give me a full licence so no more restriction.
savage86
18-11-12, 09:23 PM
dont think so, as they are two separate tests are they not
So this is assuming you've done Mod 1 and 2 on the restricted. I don't know about the new rules. But if you're of the right age etc for the big bike test then the issue is two fold. The test requires that you use a bike that meets the power threshold and, secondly, you must use an appropriately insured bike for the test.
Which may mean "will I take a chance and not mention that its restricted/not insured for the test and try my luck?" Or "shall I hire an unrestricted, insured bike for more money?".
(won't mention which route I took)
If you are over 21 and do the das then yes you would be unrestricted. If you are under 21 then the only way you can be unrestricted is wait the two years.
I've also been trying to understand the new rules and have been researching for slightly different reasons. However, I'm yet to find anyone who is totally clear.
The test requires that you use a bike that meets the power threshold and, secondly, you must use an appropriately insured bike for the test.
You only need a restricted bike (officially A2 category) for the test to step up to full access. However the proof of restriction has to be official dealer/manufacturer/specialist notice/letter of restrictor fitting and gov.uk is explicit that dyno test sheet is not adequate. See the table halfway down the page here (https://www.gov.uk/motorcycle-practical-test/new-rules-for-mopeds-and-motorcycles-from-19-january-2013). Seems you need a full power bike to do direct access, which I believe effectively means a training school machine due to insurance requirements. Also, I think there are official constraints on which bikes qualify for taking the new tests on. Pure bureaucracy IMHO. There are lists on the gov.uk page linked above and they are far from comprehensive - I'm not sure any SV is allowed.:confused:
If you are over 21 and do the das then yes you would be unrestricted. If you are under 21 then the only way you can be unrestricted is wait the two years.
Not sure this is quite right. If you are over 24 then you can do the test whenever you like if you can get access to an full power allowed bike (direct access). So, you could fast track to full power if you are old enough.
If not, i.e. you are under 24, you have to have at least two years experience at restricted A2 level anyway so, if I have understood correctly and you already have restricted licence under old scheme then it's just a matter of biding your time until your two years is up and the restriction is lifted automatically.
I was referring to current test rules, not what come in in January.
I was referring to current test rules, not what come in in January.
Valid point - I assumed that the OP would have done that already if he was eligible, but that does make irrelevant some of what I put in my first post. Urrgh!
http://img.tapatalk.com/d/12/11/19/7y2utehe.jpg this may be of some help ( if its not too small :) )
Looking at the OP it appeared the question was whether a restricted bike could be used for the full test. So it is assumed the OP is of the right age for the full unrestricted license.
As I said, don't know about the new system (took a glance at that pic from Tomor) but I would have thought you cannot take a full test with a restricted bike - i.e. the MOD 2 DA test. Otherwise the OP would have mentioned the current two year qualifying route.
So, can you use a restricted bike to take a the full power test? As far as I'm aware, no.
Under the current rules, no - A1 requires the test to be taken on a 125, and both accelerated and direct access for full A entitlement require you to be over 21 and take the test on a bike over 46.9 bhp (35kW).
Source: https://www.gov.uk/ride-motorcycle-moped/direct-and-accelerated-access
-Ralph-
19-11-12, 08:41 AM
https://www.gov.uk/motorcycle-practical-test/new-rules-for-mopeds-and-motorcycles-from-19-january-2013
hang on - look at the bottom of this page. Motorcycles with a switchable power mode. Where do they come into this? Can you ride one of these so long as it's in the right mode? Would be a very easy way for manufacturers to make bikes compliant, but totally pointless as every rider is just going to ride on full power and switch mode if blue lights come on behind them.
-Ralph-
19-11-12, 08:42 AM
the new test rules
I was referring to current test rules
So Ruffy was quite correct to make the correction then, since the new test rules is what the OP was asking about?
Never said he wasn't correct, I just didn't read the op properly :)
http://img.tapatalk.com/d/12/11/19/7y2utehe.jpg this may be of some help ( if its not too small :) )
Don't know where it's from, but I think it's wrong on several counts:
- At 19-23 my understanding is that if you pass the new Mod 2 you can ride any capacity bike subject to power and power to weight restrictions only. There is no 400cc absolute capacity limit. You get an A2 category licence. A2 rules according to gov.uk: At least 395cc, between 25 and 35 kW, power/weight no more than 0.2 kW/kg.
- You can take the full practical test at 21 if you've been riding A2 since 19. You don't have to wait until 24 under all circumstances.
- My understanding is that you don't have to repeat Mod 1.
Happy to be corrected on any of the above but I'm pretty confident in my research. Confusion abounds!
Under the current rules, no - A1 requires the test to be taken on a 125, and both accelerated and direct access for full A entitlement require you to be over 21 and take the test on a bike over 46.9 bhp (35kW).
Source: https://www.gov.uk/ride-motorcycle-moped/direct-and-accelerated-access
But it remains unclear for the new rules under "staged access". If you pass A2 when you've done your two years you have to take another practical test to get full entitlement. Does that second test have to be on a full capacity bike. If so, that effectively demands a riding school machine for insurance reasons as you won't yet be licensed for your own full capacity bike and having a licence for the vehicle is a standard exclusion on all insurance policies I've ever had. If you can't take the test on the A2 bike then that is definitely a captive market IMHO. The official lists of suitable machines is bad enough but are they effectively forcing further instruction on 2+ year experienced riders?. Anyone know for sure?
But it remains unclear for the new rules under "staged access". If you pass A2 when you've done your two years you have to take another practical test to get full entitlement. Does that second test have to be on a full capacity bike. If so, that effectively demands a riding school machine for insurance reasons as you won't yet be licensed for your own full capacity bike and having a licence for the vehicle is a standard exclusion on all insurance policies I've ever had. If you can't take the test on the A2 bike then that is definitely a captive market IMHO. The official lists of suitable machines is bad enough but are they effectively forcing further instruction on 2+ year experienced riders?. Anyone know for sure?
I can only go on what the officials say on the subject. By the look of things, the A test (for staged access at 21 or DAS at 24) needs to be taken on an A category bike, so 595+cc and 40kW output is required. I suspect that might need to be hired in.
I think an ECU swap for a pointy (as an example) is out of the question, given the hidden ECU exclusion at the bottom of the bike page.
I would also note that the distinction between mod 1 and 2 may be irrelevant soon - my understanding is that there is a review into the new test which aims to merge the two parts into a single test. No news yet on when that will take effect - although it is at an advanced stage (trial testing with suitable candidates), my understanding is that it won't happen before the new licence categories take effect.
Sources:
Categories: https://www.gov.uk/ride-motorcycle-moped/new-rules-from-january-2013
Bikes: https://www.gov.uk/motorcycle-practical-test/new-rules-for-mopeds-and-motorcycles-from-19-january-2013
Anyone know for sure?
Yes. The rules are quite clear. Under the new rules the DA criteria for 24 year olds are the same. So, I don't see where there has been a change to the type of bike that has to be used for the DA test.
So, the test motorcycle must be at least 595cc / 40kw engine.
As for the question of whether a restricted bike can be used for the full license, the answer is an emphatic no. Such a restricted bike would have to be restricted to 40kw and cannot be more than double the power in full power mode.
So the question asked about using a bike with power modes is thus. A restricted bike can be used for the lower category of license but it will be prohibited if the full power of the cycle is more than double its restricted power.
Example:
"If the original unrestricted power of your motorcycle was 60kW, you can’t restrict it to less than 30kW." (No Panigale's please).
Further, the guidance states the following:
"Motorcycles with variable power modes
It must be clear what power mode any switchable engine control unit (ECU) or variable power device is set to. If you are using one of these, your motorcycle cannot have:
interchangeable carburrettor heads
an exhaust manifold restrictor
a hidden ECU"
It would therefore be illegal to use a restricted bike on a full test.
What about the two year rule? Corrected - with two years A2 experience, you will need a further practical test.
The rules are quite clear.
I disagree on that. Putting aside my own personal confusion, if it was quite clear then the creator of the pic supplied earlier in the thread wouldn't have introduced the 400cc error (and I'm pretty confident that is a definite error) nor effectively ruled out that there is a way to full licence before 24 (i.e. 21 onwards via staged access).
I can only go on what the officials say on the subject. By the look of things, the A test (for staged access at 21 or DAS at 24) needs to be taken on an A category bike, so 595+cc and 40kW output is required. I suspect that might need to be hired in.
Under the new rules the DA criteria for 24 year olds are the same. So, I don't see where there has been a change to the type of bike that has to be used for the DA test.
So, the test motorcycle must be at least 595cc / 40kw engine.
Agreed now. I never really disputed direct access but I maintain it's not been explained well for staged access. (I won't soapbox more on the ethics of creating a captive market. Suffice to say it annoys me a lot. I believe you should have the choice to be able to teach yourself and be easily able to provide your own machine for test.)
I would also note that the distinction between mod 1 and 2 may be irrelevant soon - my understanding is that there is a review into the new test which aims to merge the two parts into a single test. No news yet on when that will take effect - although it is at an advanced stage (trial testing with suitable candidates), my understanding is that it won't happen before the new licence categories take effect.
Useful to know. Good to see they got it all figured out before implementation!:rolleyes: I wonder what the criteria for "suitable candidates" are?
- My understanding is that you don't have to repeat Mod 1.
On re-reading gov.uk and other sources, I now think I was wrong with this: The probable correct interpretation being that the "test" (singular) comprises two modules.
I disagree on that.
This is all in reference to the OP's question bud. Haven't paid enough attention to all the new rules to claim full understanding. But regards the OP's question, I believe the situation is quite clear.
This is all in reference to the OP's question bud. Haven't paid enough attention to all the new rules to claim full understanding. But regards the OP's question, I believe the situation is quite clear.
Fair enough.
Sorry for all the confusion people i shall try and clear it up abit.
Im on a restricted licence at the mo.
Im about 312 years old.
Was just hoping i could book a test before or after the new rules and use my restricted bike for the test pass and have full access.
-Ralph-
19-11-12, 10:07 PM
I'd love a definitive answer on the 400cc thing too. I posted a link in Ruffy's thread that said the same a few days ago. I accepted Ruffy's research at the time, it being more comprehensive than my quick google, but that image looks to be a scan from a magazine, and you'd expect them to have researched it fully.
No smoke without fire? Even if there is indeed no 400cc limit, it seems to be a common enough misconception, that how many coppers will think there is??
I'd love a definitive answer on the 400cc thing too.
I've just looked up the text of the 3rd European Driving Licence Directive (http://eur-lex.europa.eu/LexUriServ/LexUriServ.do?uri=OJ:L:2006:403:0018:0060:EN:PDF), which is the legislation that enables these changes.
I hope the link works but the categories are defined on page 4 of the pdf: Article 4, 3(b) defines Cat A2 and there is no mention of capacity.
Interestingly the UK appears to have adopted ages that are 1 year later than the minimum laid down in the directive except for Cat A direct access. Will now go hunting for the UK SI to confirm no other "extras".
Edit: Found the UK SI that enacts 3EDLD into UK law. It's The Motor Vehicles (Driving Licences) (Amendment) Regulations 2012 (http://www.legislation.gov.uk/uksi/2012/977/pdfs/uksi_20120977_en.pdf). Schedule 3 (pages 7/8 of the pdf linked here) Item 2(a) defines Cat A2 just as the Eu Directive i.e. without any mention of absolute capacity limit.
I'm no lawyer but, based on these, I'd stand in court and defend against an allegation of riding over 400cc on a restricted licence. Until we have some case law I don't think we can get any more definitive, but I believe any mention of 400cc is wrong, plain and simple.
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