View Full Version : Builders advise please - flooding
My house was flooded on Friday night, because of a burst water main near to me. Only a little water came in through the front door and I thought I'd escaped lightly, until the chaps from Anglian Water turned up and asked if I had a cellar. I had - one that was tanked and nice and dry and used as a sitting room/study area and spare bedroom when needed.
I opened it's door to see 4 inches of water! The pressure from the mains was so great it had forced it's way up and into the room.
Anglian Water have been pretty good, and I now have very noisy driers in the cellar. When it's dry they will assess the damage
But last night, after they'd gone, I noticed more damage. There is a large crack in a wall I share with neighbours, which is possibly getting bigger. And my roof now leaks in two places.
Could these have been caused by the flood? Are they related to each other?
I'm so worried about it all now. I know so many others have had it much worse in other parts of the country, so I don't want to make a fuss. But I can't sleep and just sit here stressing that my house is falling down!
Can any of you builders reassure me please?
Paul the 6th
25-11-12, 11:46 AM
Specialmoan, owenski or roberrrt would be able to advise on this I think sally, it's not something I know too much about - good luck with it all though, do you have home insurance and are you covered by it? :(
Home insurance will cover it, but Anglian Water have said they'll cover it too. That was I don't have to pay £200 excess and suffer raised premiums
Paul the 6th
25-11-12, 11:51 AM
ah brilliant - well just hang fire and see what our resident civil engineering/architect/builder types say and hopefully it won't be too bad to get sorted? fingers crossed for yee :)
Paul the 6th
25-11-12, 11:51 AM
edit: also speedplay has worked in construction in various guises over the years :)
dizzyblonde
25-11-12, 12:01 PM
Sorry to hear this Messie, not a nice experience. I've had roof issues which I fought tooth and nail over with the neighbours council run landlords.
Have you asked your neighbours if they have any cracks, or problems from above. I do hope its not made your property subside with so much water damage. No expert, but its suspicious to say the keast when you say there's a big crack in the cellar and coincidental issues in the roof :(
Draw a pencil line on/over the crack and measure the width of the hole....and keep measuring to see if it gets wider or longer. Write everything you find down....don't be the one forking out with your insurance.
Unfortunately the house next door, with which I share the wall, is currently unoccupied. The landlord is having some work done before it's rented out again. No-one has been able to contact him or get inside as yet.
The crack is actually in the front room, not the cellar, which seems weird to me, but I have no understanding of how buildings work at all.
My house is 166 yeras old. I'm sure it's seen worse :(
My initial thoughts are if the basement/cellar was all properly tanked/ waterproofed and the pressure of the water was high enough to push though that, then there may have been slight movement in the foundations/underbuilding.
I would just wait until everything has dried out and the waterboard have fixed the main. if you don't want to go through your insurance, get them to provide a building surveyor/ engineer to come out and provide a structural report on the property so you have something in writing. and then get quotes/ estimates for carrying out the repair work for cracks and anything else that needs sorting.
you probably knew most of this, but I think it's a case of waiting and seeing what the waterboard do first.
dizzyblonde
25-11-12, 12:21 PM
Oh dear, you really do need the landlords cooperation, even if its just to confirm he has no damage. If he does, joining forces to get your property repaired by Anglian water could well happen.
Me and the neighbours joined forces to tackle damage to both our homes, due to negligence by council workmen. The final straw was when their roof nearly fell into my car last year. An independent deemed in my favour to get the lot done costing not one penny to me, as a broke owner vs big company!.
I know its totally different, but, if this ends being a large messy job, I'd expect a fight with the water company to fix it. They tend to shy out of the responsibility, whilst you have a headache and a wet and damaged property.
454697819
25-11-12, 12:25 PM
messie
sorry to hear,
Yes the movement in the building may have occurred due to the flooding under ground, which will have changed the pressure under ground, and may have caused a "heave" in the soil.
The "good" news is when the soil dries out it should shrink back to near enough where it was and can be repaired and all should be fine again, although the repairs may be fairly major depending on the type of wall which has been damaged.
Sorry to hear this, anglia water were good to me when my meter had been leaking for 6 months and I ended up with a £800 bill.
Fingers corssed this will be sorted soon
Alex
Thank you all so far.
Yes the cellar was properly tanked and waterproof, and there was something like 24 litlre/per second of water coming out of the mains, which I'm told is high.
To be fair to Anglian Water, they have been very good so far; they admitted liability straight aways and got workmen and Loss Adjusters in before my own insurance company could.
Apparenttly my roof is a stange sort, where tiles have been covered with canvas, which has then been sprayed with tar (or something)
Please could someone tell me my house isn't going to fall down?
Houses are more resilientthan you'd think.
Like you said its been there all that time.
The ones in the west country have had worse and still standing .
Spank86
25-11-12, 02:45 PM
I can tell you it's not going to fall down.
Takes an awful lot of subsidence for that to happen. Bit of movement and a few cracks aren't unexpected though when things shift. You won't really know the full extent of things till everything dries back to normal but I wouldn't worry too much, there's no question as to the blame and the water company will be insured for this stuff.
andrewsmith
25-11-12, 03:18 PM
Messie
Sorry to here that. From what you've said sounds like the house is safe structurally.
Get on to your insurers make them aware and they'll come assess what the issues are. At least Anglican have admitted liability straight away, 24 l/sec is a city supply by sounds so is a big main to fail
You can't stop that size leak getting everywhere
sent from a phone
Specialone
25-11-12, 04:36 PM
Messie,
It doesnt take too much water for the ground to shift, many many factors come in to play, level of the water table in the area, type of earth (clay, sandy etc) is the house on a hill?
Being an old house has pros and cons, pros are it will have lime mortar so will allow movement to an extent, cons is it will have shallow foundations compared to modern standards.
If the house has moved enough to cause a large crack, I wouldnt be surprised if there is signs of movement at roof level too.
If it was me, I'd demand an independent structural engineer visits your property at their cost, they normally screw a piece of glass across the crack and monitor it.
You definitely need to make Anglian aware of these new cracks and the fact that the tanking has been breached should've set their alarm bells ringing.
Hopefully it's not as bad as it sounds, good luck.
Thank you everyone, for the reassurances.
The Loss Adjuster for Anglian Water has been in contact again ( I emailed with info about the crack and leaks) and they've promised they will do what they can. He said they will put tarps over the roof tomorrow.
SpecialOne - thanks for the advice. I'll make sure I ask for a structural engineer when I see them again tomorrow. At least it's not just me who thinks all the problems may be connected
Specialone
25-11-12, 06:44 PM
Another thing, do not settle on a claim until a structural engineer has reported on it, they can say whatever they like but unless an expert looks at it, then take everything else with a pinch of salt.
OK will do!
Mine is a small flood. All of those whose whole houses have been flooded this week end by the weather must be so traumatised. I feel anxious enough. They must feel dreadful :(
thefallenangel
25-11-12, 07:18 PM
From a water front 24 litres a second isn't a massive amount. And by the sounds of the damage and response you'll be ok. Water companies tend not to "shy" from liability, even more so when the local telemetry pumping station will prove the leak anyway, so sit tight but they've got evidence to prove the leak for you. So they can't run and hide.
Sorry, that should've read 240 litres per second. That's what the guys said.
I'm just hoping the roof leak is connected to the cellar leak - otherwise I need I need a new roof at my own expense!
Spank86
25-11-12, 07:52 PM
If the ground floor has shifted then it stands to reason that everything above will be effected.
If it happened at the same time you ought to have a good case.
Just be glad it's wet weather, in a hot summer you might not have noticed for months.
Amadeus
25-11-12, 09:13 PM
Not much I can add in any knowledgeable way, but take loads of photos and make a note of your meter readings. Something similar happened to me (Thames Water) tho I didn't have a cellar and I had blowers installed for about 2 weeks, followed by an anti-mould treatment - it all used a lot of electricity so ensure you get the money back.
Try not to stress about it. They know they've messed up and hopefully they'll continue to do the decent thing. I think (because I'm very cynical and very bitter & twisted) that I'd get my insurers involved to get someone to say what they think needs to be done - that will be a professional opinion on your side, not by the people who have to pay out if it turns out to be significant.
If you feel they're not doing the right thing, you can complain to OfWat.
Worrying news tonight. Building surveyors have informed me that the leaks are due to my roof being old and in need of maintenance. I accept that and repairs were in my long term plan.
It's just that unti lthe flood my poor old roof didn't leak, and now it does.
:(
Spank86
26-11-12, 09:25 PM
Who's surveyors, yours or the water companies?
The water company's - well one appointed by their Loss Adjuster, who keeps telling me he's independent
dizzyblonde
26-11-12, 09:33 PM
Get someone else to independently look. Don't take their word for it. Far too coincidental your roof now leaks.
Dig your heels in. All roofing has wear and tear, but it wouldn't wear out if it wasn't pushed to do it quicker ;)
Specialone
26-11-12, 09:37 PM
They can't fail to have conflict of interest surely?
It's in their interest to say your roof leaking is not linked to the flood, it's possible that the roof leaking has only surfaced due to severe weather recently, but I couldn't say without seeing it.
I'd consider telling them you are getting your own structural engineer / surveyor and you want them to pay for it, I don't trust 'independent' surveyors etc appointed by the company you're claiming off.
This is all getting far too difficult and stressful. I don't know how all these insurers and loss adjusters work.
I've been told that going with the water company guy will save me money in the long run, due to no excess and no increased premiums on my insurance because I've has a claim But just having one opinions does seem a bit risky.
It's not often I say this, but for once I'm sick of dealing with things on my own. I fel scared, stressed and worried, and don't know what to do for the best. Sorry
There's water coming in through the ceiling again right now.
I spoke to the Loss Adjuster yesterday who was very understanding and promised that the builders who work for them would put a tarp over my roof this mornig. They are the ones who said the leaks were due to poor maintenance and not the burst water main, so they put a bit of mastik in and went away.
No tarp, and water coming in. Not happy :(
Specialone
26-11-12, 09:57 PM
Take pictures of this now for your records, just don't accept what their people tell you as gospel, they may be correct, it may be your roof is tired and just a coincidence but it shouldn't be their people telling you this, using the term "it will work out cheaper for you this way" sets my suspicious senses tingling tbh.
I hope it gets sorted easily.
Amadeus
26-11-12, 10:00 PM
Messie, if you're interested I can put you in touch with some solicitors who helped me out with some buildings insurance (which had been going on for 8 years up until that point) - it's amazing what some headed paper from some heavy hitting solicitors will do.
Things will work out - they always do. Remember the light at the end of the tunnel.
Spank86
26-11-12, 10:01 PM
There's water coming in through the ceiling again right now.
I spoke to the Loss Adjuster yesterday who was very understanding and promised that the builders who work for them would put a tarp over my roof this mornig. They are the ones who said the leaks were due to poor maintenance and not the burst water main, so they put a bit of mastik in and went away.
No tarp, and water coming in. Not happy :(
Wait, did the builders say it was poor maintenance or did a surveyor?
There's a big difference.
It was a Surveyor (according to his business card) who works for large local building company.
It's coming in through three separate places now
Seams far to much like coincidents,
Ok maybe it was the straw that broke the cammles back.truly independent survayor.
Have you got access to the loft?
dizzyblonde
26-11-12, 10:20 PM
Get back on the phone in the morning and demand they sort it. At least to stop anymore damage.
Loft insulation is like a big heavy sponge when wet.
I didn't fall for we have to go with what's cheapest for all parties. In my mind, these big companies all try pulling that one. They won't lose much sleep or money covering a proportion, but you will.
Spank86
26-11-12, 10:21 PM
Trouble is if the roof is in as bad a condition as you suggest it may simply be that no surveyor will attribute it to the water company. Even if the leak has been (as ntecuk said) the straw that broke the camels back they may take the view that a well maintained and good quality roof would not have been damaged.
andrewsmith
26-11-12, 10:29 PM
It was a Surveyor (according to his business card) who works for large local building company.
It's coming in through three separate places now
Not independent!!
He'll for the contractor that does Anglican waters maintenance! I can put money on that one.
Messie speak to your insurance and get an independent surveyor in to assess the damage
Look on here http://www.ricsfirms.com/ and look at the firm type: Building surveyor
-Ralph-
26-11-12, 10:38 PM
Part of the loss adjusters remit to to limit his employers liability. He may say he's independent, but he's being contracted by Anglian Water.
My kitchen was recently flooded. The 'independent' loss adjuster estimated the damage at 8 times less than my builder. The engineer from the drying company agreed with the builder. The architect next door, who is Head of the Technical team (which includes the surveyors) for one of the UK's biggest building suppliers, agrees with the builder.
Strange house my poor old roof lasted the whole of the wettest summer on record, without letting any water through.
Now, after a massive flood, cracked walls and people being on the roof, there's enough water coming through to need two buckets and several towels.
Having trouble coping with it all just now
People crawling about on roof tiles can cause damage.
If you have more than one leak within a 12-inch radius, you may be able to divert the multiple leaks down to one stream. Hammer a nail into the ceiling at the location of the largest (or central) leak to create a hole through the plaster, forming a single drain hole to which the other leaks may run.
You get a structural engineer in asap
-Ralph-
26-11-12, 10:59 PM
Strange house my poor old roof lasted the whole of the wettest summer on record, without letting any water through.
Now, after a massive flood, cracked walls and people being on the roof, there's enough water coming through to need two buckets and several towels
Not many can argue with that logic Messie, stick to your guns on it and don't accept no for an answer.
If someone ran into your bike or car and offered to "sort it out", would you let them do that or would you be on the phone to your own insurer? If the latter, then don't let them do it with your home.
Loss Adjusters are supposed to be independent but this guy is adjusting a liability claim and he's being paid by an insurer to settle on the best terms. His firm has had to bid to be on an insurers panel and part of that bid is based on "cost effective" claims handling. At best he's on a limited fee so his earnings erode as your claim gets more difficult.
All this "save the excess/don't push up insurance costs" is patter to discourage you from using your own insurers because they KNOW that will cost them more. If you're the "at fault" insurer you capture third party claims to reduce your costs. That's the only reason for doing it.
A surveyor working for a building firm isn't even pretending to be independent.
That's not to say you'll be getting done over - they might be really fair - but their independence is questionable.
I know it's stressful and it might seem easiest to just let these people get on with it, but they've already let you down (your roof was supposed to not be leaking by now).
If it was me I'd be appointing my own structural engineer to take a look at it. To hell with independence, I'd want someone being paid by me to take a look. It's cash out your pocket just now but it's a legitimate cost to claim back from the water company.
At the very least, get your own buildings insurers involved. From an insurance point of view an "own damage" claim is very different to a liability claim.
If it's building heave, you may well have a chunky excess, but you'll get it back from the water company. I wouldn't worry about the premium. It's not a significant worry in the grand scheme of things - your insurers will likely make a full recovery of their costs.
PS When you speak to anyone else about this then, as far as you're concerned, the roof leak is connected to the building movement - don't go giving anyone an easy way to fob you off.
Sorry for your troubles. HTH.
Specialone
26-11-12, 11:38 PM
Exactly what i was trying to say Tam, except you put it better :)
andrewsmith
27-11-12, 12:06 AM
Messie follow TamSV's advice!!! He know's his stuff!
Specialone
27-11-12, 12:12 AM
Messie follow TamSV's advice!!! He know's his stuff!
Errmm, i know one or two things too you know :rolleyes:
After a sleepless night, the leaks have stopped.
Tam - that's really good advice about insureres; I'd be wondering where to get such advice from and that makes it clear. Thank you. And thanks you Specialone - you've helped too.
Looks like I'll be on the phone to plenty of people today
andrewsmith
27-11-12, 07:24 AM
Errmm, i know one or two things too you know :rolleyes:
I was implying insurance my building friend
sent from a phone
Specialone
27-11-12, 07:33 AM
I was implying insurance my building friend
sent from a phone
I knowwwww, only kidding :)
BigBaddad
27-11-12, 08:43 AM
That's bad news Messie
Check with your insurance company, many policies have legal cover. If the fault is with Anglian Water they should foot 100% of the bill and pay your excess and any other losses. You could speak to CAB.
You may have structural damage caused by the soil around you property being washed away. This might not be visible from the ground. In extreme cases it could bring your house down. A structural engineer might need to put in some bore holes to check (last one I had done cost about £300 to check some footings.) If your roof is leaking this could suggest your property has shifted. It might need underpinning. An engineers report would be the only way to be sure, don't rely on what AW will tell you.
If you use your insurance(I would contact them ASAP), they should claim ALL costs from AW. Contact your insurance company and deal only with them, not AW. They should send out someone to assess the damage, perhaps even a structural engineer. If there is a danger they might have to offer you temporary accommodation.
Hope it's all sorted soon.
-Ralph-
27-11-12, 08:52 AM
In extreme cases it could bring your house down
Just highlighting the word 'extreme'. The water is no longer running and so no longer eroding the soil. The soil should therefore settle and the house should stop moving. If a collapse was going to happen, firstly the water would still need to be making things worse, and you'd have a gap in the wall you could get your hand through by now, not a crack.
BigBaddad
27-11-12, 11:22 AM
Just highlighting the word 'extreme'. The water is no longer running and so no longer eroding the soil. The soil should therefore settle and the house should stop moving. If a collapse was going to happen, firstly the water would still need to be making things worse, and you'd have a gap in the wall you could get your hand through by now, not a crack.
In EXTREME cases there could be a void under/around the foundations, which could go completely undetected. This would need backfilling. It could take years for the soil to settle and a part of the property could remain unsupported and may or may not move again or collapse. Not a risk I would want to take.
Owenski
27-11-12, 11:25 AM
Just catching up with this now Messie sorry I hadn't noticed earlier.
Lots of good advice from people on here already, but I don't think you've had an engineer in here yet.
I would without doubt insist that you get a structural engineering assessment of the property and do this at your earliest opportunity. In fact give me your postcode and I'll look one up for you who works in your area.
240l/s is a lot of water to have flowing from a main, the main overlooked problem is that this release of water is pressurised and that is significant.
Normal flooding will mean water follows the easiest path, if you add anything more than the hydrostatic head to that flow then you force the water to take alternate paths, these alternate paths usually mean damage is caused which creates a NEW easy path for the water. In turn this means that if before the damage water used to follow nice easy channels in the soil around your property, this habit will now have changed as water follows the new easier path the water has carved out into your cellar.
During these heavy rains, if the cellar is taking longer to dry out than you may have first anticipated then this would support my thoughts above.
I assume the failed main has long since been repaired, any heave which occurred may now subside but this doest mean that the damage will reverse, far from it if anything the retracting earth may now cause the already weakened bond between your block work to break further as things try to return to their previous positions causes more stress on the joints. Without underpinning or screen piling from the outside I suspect further headache if this is not addressed.
You've got a 166year old house with a basement, that means your basement is your foundation for the rest of the property. That is unless this is some former royal building I can be almost certain that you have no construction below the floor of your cellar. You NEED to get a surveyor down there ASAP, water is a mofo and causes serious damage, the fact your roof is now leaking is a strong indication that you have had a fair amount of movement. I don't think your house will fall down or anything so don't panic too much but don't take it lightly and FFS don't listen to the water board, they're a business not a service its in their interest to pay out as little as possible. Fortunately you have home insurance and there are few organisations better at making other pay for something doing, use this service that you pay for should you need it.
That seems like a fair bit to take in so in summary:
My advice:
Contact your home insurance provider, AW are out to save them selves as much money as possible based on the repair costs of the burst main - It is not in their interest to solve your problems, they just want them patched up enough so they can leave, I can promise you that!
Take pictures and video through any means you have of any and all leaks, a walk through of the property accompanied by your concerned tone as you describe the damage works a treat.
Your insurance company should be all over this like a rash, its an opportunity for them to get a big boy to pay for something they cant possibly deny they're at fault for. Sod the extra premium Sally look at this way, you're paying an extra £5 a month on your premium which acts like payment instalments for a newly decorated property with a new roof. It's peanuts for what you can have them take on.
If you're in any doubt about anything send me a PM with you phone number and I'll give you a call.
Few Oswenski and BBDad, now you've got me worried again.
I've just had roofers in, working for me not any one else, and they say the roof is old and badly repaired and has probably leaking for a while. They showed me photos and it does look poor.The think the crack in the wall is from water seeping inside, from above, not below. They don't see it as part of the flooding problem, just a sad coincidence.
The cellar is not a new construction and was built as an integral part of the house in 1846. I know this as a couple of us looked up the history of the cottages; the one next door has a cellar which has a fireplace in it which goes inwards more than 6 feet. This was used for glass blowing and we found early blown mercury cylinders in there (now donated to the town museum). Mine was the bakery, and the extra wide hearth in the cellar was probably the baker's oven.
It is a bit worrying to hear that the cellar is likely to be the only foundation though.
The owner of the house attached next door on one side is getting his own structural engineer out and he says I can link in with this. He's a porerty devloper so knows the right people to get working for him.
So far my insurance company are not be particularly helpful but I have decided to go through them, following advise from here and elsewhere, instead of directly through AW. I'll probably go to AW for compensation for all the unnecessary stress and hell they're burst main is causing me. I'm not for the compensation culture at all, but I do really believe it's justified in this case.
-Ralph-
27-11-12, 12:28 PM
Insurance companies are extremely busy with flooded properties this week, it may take perseverance and patience.
BigBaddad
27-11-12, 12:59 PM
Sounds like your roof might only be a symptom of an underlying problem. Just keep on at your insurance company.
I didn't mean to scare you with my previous post, just trying to get my point across that there MIGHT be an major issue somewhere that without an engineers report might go undetected leaving you massively out of pocket. Owenski's adive is pretty much spot on. Water can cause so much damage.
Spank86
27-11-12, 01:00 PM
The thought occurs that surely you can add money onto the claim to account for the increased premiums you'll suffer in the future?
Amadeus
27-11-12, 06:22 PM
I'd not hold your breath looking for compensation - I have paid out over £12k to ensure that an insurer sorts an issue, and I've only got a ~50% chance of getting that back - it's currently with the ombudsman. Getting extra money for stress etc would be great but unlikely. That was going on for close to 10 years and the damage was considerably worse than you've mentioned.
Just focus on getting your house straight. Once it's all sorted you'll probably be so relieved that you don't care so much.
I have an incredibly low regard for insurers.
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