Gun crime

[widepants]

he cant even plan using the loo , but he is not a high functioning autistic.Some of them ,aspergers inc can be very calculated.Not saying the guy in question was on the spectrum , nor all autistics have violent tendencies because most , like the general populace dont, but there was a piece about it in the paper.
Spank , are there any indications it was planned and exercuted in a rational way

[Spank86]

I don't think so but the arguments about guns on this thread have repeatedly included the assertion that if guns weren't available in the home then they would be acquired or a bomb made etc...

I was just wondering if you thought it was a possibility in this one hypocritical case.

[yorkie_chris]

This guy had aspergers (sp*) so they by nature don't see consequence in their actions.

So why did he top himself then?

[Spank86]

So why did he top himself then?

Perhaps he didn't see the consequence of being dead.

[widepants]

So why did he top himself then?
the same way my lad will headbut his way through the door if I didnt stop him.When in a meltdown the consequence of an action does not exist

[widepants]

I don't think so but the arguments about guns on this thread have repeatedly included the assertion that if guns weren't available in the home then they would be acquired or a bomb made etc...

I was just wondering if you thought it was a possibility in this one hypocritical case.
My lad is under all sorts of mental health proffesionals and to 99.9% of people who see him for a sort time he looks so sweet.
BUT
When in a meltdown any action he does take could be dangerous.
Could he run amoke with a gun????? who knows.
Could he plan it ????? No

[Specialone]

So why did he top himself then?

Are we 100% sure he did?

But even the act of shooting himself in his mind could be to him a act without consequence, who knows what was going on in his head, we'll never know.

His mom was a member of a cult that prepares for the armegeddon so who knows how fecked up he was at home.

[Runako]

Are we 100% sure he did?

But even the act of shooting himself in his mind could be to him a act without consequence, who knows what was going on in his head, we'll never know.

His mom was a member of a cult that prepares for the armegeddon so who knows how fecked up he was at home.

Yes. He did.

And this is not complicated. The boy was affected long term by the impact of his parent's split. His socialisation went some way to this outcome, but the extent of the damage was due to his easy access to guns. End of.

[Specialone]

Yes. He did.

And this is not complicated. The boy was affected long term by the impact of his parent's split. His socialisation went some way to this outcome, but the extent of the damage was due to his easy access to guns. End of.

Was you there then to be 100% sure?
Too easy to pigeon hole like that.

You cannot simply blame guns or 20million gun owners are gonna do a similar act based on your logic.

We don't know fully all the facts, normal people do not just pick up a firearm, kill their mother then murder 20 odd people.

If I had a kid with aspergers, I'd certainly make sure the guns were locked up out of his reach though.

[Runako]

Was you there then to be 100% sure?
Too easy to pigeon hole like that.

You cannot simply blame guns or 20million gun owners are gonna do a similar act based on your logic.

We don't know fully all the facts, normal people do not just pick up a firearm, kill their mother then murder 20 odd people.

If I had a kid with aspergers, I'd certainly make sure the guns were locked up out of his reach though.

What's there to be unsure about? He killed himself. This is the psychosis of a mass murderer. Read this for an example - http://members.iimetro.com.au/~hubbca/pam2.htm

What logic? 20 million Americans with guns are no more likely to go on a murdering spree than 20 millions kids who play online FPS shoot em ups. Both are easy targets but not my reasoning.

My reasoning says his socialisation had a part to play in the outcome, but the EXTENT of the damage was due to having access to so many guns.

I never said the kid was normal. But then what is normal? There is a thin line between someone who is drastically affected by some event in their lives that has a negative effect on their outlook. It doesn't have to result in mass shootings. Its more common for internalised anger to lead to suicide. Many more people commit suicide than are killed in these occasional mass shootings. And there is still a lack of understanding about why.

So I think this is not such a complicated case. The specific reasons we will no doubt have heard before. I don't believe there is anything uniquely special about his motives. I just believe he had too much means in a society that normalises access to high powered weapons.

[Owenski]

Kind of hypocritical when you think of the USA going into all the various countries they've invaded in the hunt for WoMD's with the argument "we know you say you'll be careful, but they're dangerous so we think they should be removed from your possession"... Then they allow firearms in every home on their own soil. Surely if their argument for those invasions is justified then try should insist that those in possession of firearms should also have their dangerous weapons removed and they be judged before possession granted.

Going back a few posts, I don't quote understand the logic of him shooting himself nor him carrying his brothers ID. if he is unable to develop understanding of consequence. Surely his suicide is acknowledgement of that understandings existence, otherwise he'd have just popped to McDonald's or something afterwards.
The guy picked up 3 guns not one but three!!! Then after shooting mummy went to mummy's work, he was thinking logically, maybe not to a standard rationally on par with society but still he once more proved he had enough going on upstairs.

Be interested to know if he was on rydolin Tom cruise will be bouncing sofa to sofa if so.

[Runako]

The guy picked up 3 guns not one but three!!!

4 - shotgun in the boot

[The Basket]

Knee jerk reaction? But it happens all too often in YankeeVille. There comes a time when somebody says stop. Cars kill people but cars are not designed to kill people. The sturmgewehr is a weapon designed to give the infantryman the power of a rifle with the magazine capacity and auto of a submachine gun. It is a military weapon to fill a military need. The StG 44 wasn't designed for hunting, concealment or target practice or home defence.

[BanannaMan]

we all no the gun lobby in the states is almost as powerful as the government and a very big and profitable business so very little will ever happen to prevent this happening again




This is the sad truth. Nothing will be done.

The NRA is a powerful political organization with close ties to it's allies,
The republican party, the gun maufacturers and the mob.
Not to mention it's influence over the votes of it's members.
The only affect this will have on gun sales is people will buy more.


Gun laws here are a joke.
They only apply to guns sold in gun shops and shows and there are loopholes in the tradeshow laws.
Privitely sold guns are not regulated. Anyone with the money can buy any weapon they desire without the government's knowledge.

Does anyone really need an assualt weapon?
No of course not. (But they are bloody fun to shoot!)
But again, as others mentioned, could have done the same damage close range with a Glock.
Take away their guns and people like these will come up with something else.
http://www.4ni.co.uk/northern_ireland_news.asp?id=153919

Banning assault weapons has been tried but failed miserably.
Due to the NRA telling 'the sheep' things like "Today it's your guns next week the government will tell you can't buy a cheeseburger at McDonalds because they kill people". (actual advert)
Sheep, most Americans are , well, stupid. Nearly half of them still think the war in iraq was because of 911.


And It's way too late to ban assault weapons now. Too many out there.
One need only travel as far as the local Walmart (think Tesco) to purchase your favorite version of an AR-15.





I don't know about the full auto thing under special license, I know several Americans who wanted them but were restricted by law, perhaps bananaman could clear this up?

You are correct.
Citizens can NOT own a fully automatic weapon.
The special use thing would be for movies, tv, of course gun manufacturers. etc. and these guns would be locked up according to laws. (in a gun safe , in a secure locked room, etc.)
You would not be able to have one in your home or for personal use.

You can have a disabled (non-firing) full auto weapon for display purposes.
Key parts are removed and others disabled by police. Often the bolt is welded open. You would not be able to make one of these fire again.

As for converting semi auto weapons to full auto.
It's simply not done.
Strict laws on automatic weapons mean jail time (on the spot) and fines.
They are very strict on this!
And on most weapons, like the M16/ar15 and such, it's really not that useful for civi use when you consider things like accuracy and possible rate of fire on semi.

[Specialone]

Cheers Bill, I did suspect I was right about full autos but wanted the real truth from someone like yourself.

[widepants]

Bill (Bananna man) do you own any guns yourself , that you keep at home?

[BanannaMan]

Bill (Bananna man) do you own any guns yourself , that you keep at home?



Don't do much shooting these days so I only have a few.

2 revolvers (.38 and.22)
1 9mm baretta type handgun
1 single shot bolt action rifle (.22)
1 1851 Navy Colt (with matching serial numbers) (don't fire this one for obvious reasons)

I've always prefered rifles and shotguns to pistols although current inventory doesn't seem to reflect that.

[Specialone]

Interestingly, the news interviewed two gun shops in the states, dunno whereabouts, said since the massacre on Friday, sales have been the best they have ever been, their shops were packed.

Panic buying just in case of knee jerk reactions?


Apparently, he was a big call of duty fan, played it all day long, IMO, there is defo a link to this, with aspergers, it could have been the catalyst he needed.

[The Basket]

The Aurora batman shooting also used a AR-15 type weapon with a 100 round drum. Ain't no knee jerk coz that wheel keeps on turning.

.

[Spank86]

Apparently, he was a big call of duty fan, played it all day long, IMO, there is defo a link to this, with aspergers, it could have been the catalyst he needed.
A link, no doubt.

Of course it could be that he became violent because he liked call of duty but IMHO it's more likely he liked call of duty because of his violent tendencies.

I believe these games attract violent types more not that they create them but I have no evidence to back it up.

[Specialone]

A link, no doubt.

Of course it could be that he became violent because he liked call of duty but IMHO it's more likely he liked call of duty because of his violent tendencies.

I believe these games attract violent types more not that they create them but I have no evidence to back it up.

I wouldn't disagree tbh, if you have violent tendencies, you have them, but if young enough kids play them, they disassociate violence with any consequence.
There has been a case(s) where kids have killed their friends acting out a scene from a violent video game.

I play call of duty games quite a lot, as do quite a few friends, we ain't killed anyone yet.

[Spank86]

There has been a case(s) where kids have killed their friends acting out a scene from a violent video game.
Incidents like that make me wonder would the killing have taken place anyway just in a different form?

Did the game give them the idea TO kill or just a suggestion as to the way?

Unfortunately a controlled study would be a touch unethical.

I play call of duty games quite a lot, as do quite a few friends, we ain't killed anyone yet.
I think most gamers do, especially ones of his age so it may be erroneous to draw much of a strong link.

He also breathed oxygen 24 hours a day.

[yorkie_chris]

Only if you're some sort of mental deficit anyway.


Kids have been fascinated by warfare since time immemorial, viking kids with wooden swords, victorian kids with tin soldiers, action man collections... whatever.

I don't think video games have anything to do with it unless you're a mental anyway.

[Specialone]

Well the knee jerk reactions have started, Obama is now calling for the ban on sale of assault rifles, so semi autos will get it and the loons will continue to murder people regardless, they will use shotguns or pistols next then they will get restricted, before long weed killer and sugar will be banned too.

[yorkie_chris]

so semi autos

Well there's more to an "assault rifle" than semi auto fire if you look at the previous federal assault weapons ban or whatever it was called.


Basically it was a load of sh*te as you could still buy an M16 mechanism so long as it was sold with a traditional rifle stock looking thing rather than the military style stuff. As far as I understand it anyway.

And obviously it's the woodwork (or lack or) that makes a rifle deadly not the clicky bangy bit in the middle...

[widepants]

I could tell if my Ex had been letting my lad play call of duty , GTA etc , It was like feeding him a diet of blue smarties , fizzy e numbers and carp.He was violent , agitated and could be damn right dangerous if he got hold of something to throw.

[Specialone]

I could tell if my Ex had been letting my lad play call of duty , GTA etc , It was like feeding him a diet of blue smarties , fizzy e numbers and carp.He was violent , agitated and could be damn right dangerous if he got hold of something to throw.

Yep, my nephew was similar, games should hold more info IMO, so parents can make better calls.

I haven't got kids but there ain't a cat in hells chance I'd let someone as young as 11 or 12 play 18 games, especially violent ones.

[Spank86]

depends on the 18 game, COD or GTA are certainly a bit realistic.

[Specialone]

Well there's more to an "assault rifle" than semi auto fire if you look at the previous federal assault weapons ban or whatever it was called.


Basically it was a load of sh*te as you could still buy an M16 mechanism so long as it was sold with a traditional rifle stock looking thing rather than the military style stuff. As far as I understand it anyway.

And obviously it's the woodwork (or lack or) that makes a rifle deadly not the clicky bangy bit in the middle...

Some of it, I believe, was to reduce the amount of nuts walking round with shortened, pistol gripped, full autos being hidden in long macs and then pulled out for total carnage.

As you said, obviously a lightweight carbon/ plastic folding stock makes the bullets so much more powerful and deadly.

[Specialone]

depends on the 18 game, COD or GTA are certainly a bit realistic.

Yeah of course, if it's just 18 because of swearing then fair enough.

[Spank86]

I was just thinking back and the original top down view GTA was an 18 but I would argue that would be fine.

Some aspects of the new GTA's might also be okay supervised but games are a bit realistic these days.

[Runako]

There has been a case(s) where kids have killed their friends acting out a scene from a violent video game.

I can only think of 1 occassion where this has happenned and the killer was mentally ill/delusional. Please find us another case where this actually happenned and it involved a kid or teenager who was influenced by video games to commit such a crime.

And then reason this: If a kid is influenced to commit violent crime as a result of violent games, then what would exposure to guns in a culture that normalises them do in comparison?

Also, if the video game argument were valid wouldn't there be more killings all over the world the world by kids who have been duly influenced? COD is a global phenomenon as was GTA back in the day.

Another thing. The most trouble I ever got into was when bored at that age. Without even video games or sport to hold my attention I was inevitably drawn into something that I would never do again. It was plain stupid and had unknown consequences for someone as I was never caught in the act and so never saw the outcome (to clarify, this was nothing too serious and no violenece was involved).

I don't regret that this happenned because it gave me cause to think about what I had done and why and, more importantly, work out for myself why I would never get involved in something like that again.

I can guarantee that if my parents knew about it I would have been severely punished. Had I chosen to follow that path I have no doubt things would be very different and I would be worse off.

I say this simply to emphasise that its easy to pick an obvious target like video games, or the existence of guns for that matter. Whilst not ruling out the possibility that some kid somewhere might be so affected by a game that they would attempt to realise this, I would question what has gone wrong before that point!

It is almost always something more personal and connected to an adult that has far more influence on that child. If a parent is able to teach a child about the context of video games or the purpose and correct use of weapons then that child is likely to develop a better understanding and ability to moderate negative behaviour associated with these things.

[yorkie_chris]

And then reason this: If a kid is influenced to commit violent crime as a result of violent games, then what would exposure to guns in a culture that normalises them do in comparison?


My argument is that you would simply see guns as a tool, rather than as anything cool because they're banned/taboo like over here.

[Specialone]

Not all violence possibly influenced by video games results in a murder or massacre, I'm sure there is loads of cases, I only know of one directly related to a video game, hence why I put a 'S' in brackets.

I'm a video game fan so not saying they should be banned but...

Throw these things into the mix...
Violent video games,
Aspergers or similar,
Unbalanced parents,
Access to a gun and ammunition,
[inset another ingredient of your choice]

And the end result can be carnage.