Anyone who understands HMRC???

[Nekkid]

Hi all, thought i'd chance it that there may be someone here who can help me with a dilema.
Heres how it is.
I have a Swedish registered company through which i plan to buy a trailer in the uk to bring back to Sweden. So being that I have a vat registered company, I should be able to buy without paying uk vat. BUT HMRC requires that the seller provides proof of export. Proof of export, as far as I can gather hinges mainly on consignment notes and various other commercial transport papers. However, I am planning to drive the trailer home myself, so no such paper will be available.
HMRC are quite vague about what documents are necessary.
Is there anyone who has any experience with this?
My first thought is that I could provide a copy of the V5 (trailers are registered like cars here) which ought to be proof enough that the trailer has been exported, but who knows if they'll accept that?
I've sent a question via HMRC website, but they say (quite incredibly) that it will take up to 15 days and possibly longe to get an answer!
So who knows what??
Cheers!
Charley

[andrewsmith]

I'm guessing this is an articulated trailer of some description?
Could be worth PM'ing Dicky Ticker.

I'm sure trailers are required to make an annual appearance at a VOSA yard for an MOT, so there will be a paper trail somewhere (and possibly a V5 or similar)

[Nekkid]

Thanks andrewsmith. No, its just an ordinary car trailer, so unregistered in the uk.
Charley

[maviczap]

The old system was to get a Customs stamp on the transit document at the port of export, but as HMRC no longer have a presence at the Border, then I don't know what the arrangements are with the UK Border Agency/Force.

I'd like to say phone the HMRC helpline, but that has an awful reputation of long waiting times and not helpful advice, as its a call centre and devoid of experts.

How crazy is it to have a Customs service, with no presence on the Border, the only one in the world.

I'll see what I can find out

When are you planning to export this trailer?

Are you buying it from a private individual or a company?

Which port do you think you might be exporting it from?

[nikon70]

That sounds like good old HMRC...

Oh that reminds me of a movie quote:

English Mother ****er do you speak it!

Good luch on your export

[a_monkey_hint]

Take a picture of it before, during and after ferry journey. Offer them the chance to come and see it physically in Sweden. Can't get better proof than that.

Sent from my Nexus 10 using Tapatalk HD

[maviczap]

That sounds like good old HMRC...

Oh that reminds me of a movie quote:

English Mother ****er do you speak it!

Good luck on your export

Don't blame HMRC, blame the Government, each one has changed & reduced HMRC.

It was at its best when it was HM Customs & Excise, but good old Gordon Brown thought it would be a good idea to merge Customs & Inland Revenue, to form HMRC, reduce staffing & close local offices. Its been a disaster ever since.

[Runako]

Proof of ownership documents, along with proof of sale (proper Sale Invoice with valid VAT number from the seller).

This is the HMRC guidance for UK businesses making VAT purchases in other EU member states - http://www.hmrc.gov.uk/vat/managing/international/overseas-traders.htm

Therefore, it seems the refund scheme may also apply to you in Sweden. I imagine you pay the VAT here and reclaim it through the scheme using your Swedish VAT registration. Otherwise it seems the acquisition rules may apply:

"You can't use the Refund Scheme to reclaim VAT on:
goods you bring in from another EU country (these are called 'acquisitions') ...

... When you bring in goods from another country in the EU to use in your business, these are dispatches from the other EU country. You can't use the Refund Scheme for them but they'll be zero-rated, as long as:

- your EU VAT number is shown on the supplier's invoice (for UK VAT-registered businesses, this is your UK VAT number)
- the supplier has evidence to show that the goods have been sent."

Obviously, these are the rules for UK traders but I assume there is some generalisation of VAT rules across the EU. I would check with your local Tax office for advice on the scheme mentioned.

In short, pay the VAT and claim it back or have documents to show that the seller is VAT registered and has supplied the goods in question.

[maviczap]

Aye that's it in a nutshell, pay it here then claim it back.

I'd try and keep evidence of it being exported, but getting any customs stamps at the border will be nigh on impossible, both here and in Sweden

[Nekkid]

Proof of ownership documents, along with proof of sale (proper Sale Invoice with valid VAT number from the seller).

This is the HMRC guidance for UK businesses making VAT purchases in other EU member states - http://www.hmrc.gov.uk/vat/managing/international/overseas-traders.htm

Therefore, it seems the refund scheme may also apply to you in Sweden. I imagine you pay the VAT here and reclaim it through the scheme using your Swedish VAT registration. Otherwise it seems the acquisition rules may apply:

"You can't use the Refund Scheme to reclaim VAT on:
goods you bring in from another EU country (these are called 'acquisitions') ...

... When you bring in goods from another country in the EU to use in your business, these are dispatches from the other EU country. You can't use the Refund Scheme for them but they'll be zero-rated, as long as:

- your EU VAT number is shown on the supplier's invoice (for UK VAT-registered businesses, this is your UK VAT number)
- the supplier has evidence to show that the goods have been sent."

Obviously, these are the rules for UK traders but I assume there is some generalisation of VAT rules across the EU. I would check with your local Tax office for advice on the scheme mentioned.

In short, pay the VAT and claim it back or have documents to show that the seller is VAT registered and has supplied the goods in question.

The refund scheme doesn't apply, it's the zero rating, which works fine if I order something from the UK to be sent to me here. It's the evidence that the goods have been sent that's the problem because I will be taking it home myself. HMRC is quite vague about what is acceptable and the burden of proof is on the seller. Obviously he's not going to take any chances.
The problem is that the proof would normally be the shipping papers.
Ho hum, only 14 days till I get an answer from HMRC........

[Nekkid]

Aye that's it in a nutshell, pay it here then claim it back.

I'd try and keep evidence of it being exported, but getting any customs stamps at the border will be nigh on impossible, both here and in Sweden

Yup, no chance!

[maviczap]

I'll see what I can find out here

Shipping document would hopefully include paperwork from the ferry company. Would they provide the invoice you need, as on the inward voyage it would be just you vehicle, on the outward it would be your vehicle + trailer?

[Runako]

The refund scheme doesn't apply, it's the zero rating, which works fine if I order something from the UK to be sent to me here. It's the evidence that the goods have been sent that's the problem because I will be taking it home myself. HMRC is quite vague about what is acceptable and the burden of proof is on the seller. Obviously he's not going to take any chances.
The problem is that the proof would normally be the shipping papers.
Ho hum, only 14 days till I get an answer from HMRC........

I thought so. But why then would proof of purchase from the seller not be enough? As you are transporting it yourself, the acquisition rules apply. The only requirement I can see is for proof of purchase from a seller with a valid VAT number.

In any case it should be interesting to see what they say.

[Runako]

Just another point. Assuming its zero rated but you'll still have to pay VAT in Sweden, then there must be a process available in Sweden to allow you to do this.

The only issue for HMRC would be the collection of VAT owed in the UK. If VAT should be paid in your country, then as long as you can demonstrate this to them this should be fine surely.

If the concern is "what evidence does the seller need to retain", then this advice may be useful - http://www.hmrc.gov.uk/vat/sectors/consumers/personal-vehicles.htm#2 "Sending your motor vehicle to another EU country from the UK".

[maviczap]

JThe only issue for HMRC would be the collection of VAT owed in the UK. If VAT should be paid in your country, then as long as you can demonstrate this to them this should be fine surely.

No, as far as I understand, VAT is charged at the point of sale, and then refunded on proof of export.

It minimises the risk to losing the revenue, as otherwise loads of people would be 'claiming' to export stuff and never doing it.

[Runako]

No, as far as I understand, VAT is charged at the point of sale, and then refunded on proof of export.

It minimises the risk to losing the revenue, as otherwise loads of people would be 'claiming' to export stuff and never doing it.

Yes, but I was referring to this case in particular. He's obviously intending to take it across the border so the Seller runs the risk of evasion if he can't account for the VAT on the trailer. I believe its the seller who wants to ensure they comply with the rules before completing the sale for it to be exported to Sweden.

And, the link above describes the scenario for when such goods are treated as zero rated.

[maviczap]

Yes, but I was referring to this case in particular. He's obviously intending to take it across the border so the Seller runs the risk of evasion if he can't account for the VAT on the trailer.

Yes, but a lot of people are 'obviously' exporting zero rated goods, and diverting them to 'Home Use' and pocketing the VAT in the process.

Hence accounting for VAT at the point of sale

[Runako]

Yes, but a lot of people are 'obviously' exporting zero rated goods, and diverting them to 'Home Use' and pocketing the VAT in the process.

Hence accounting for VAT at the point of sale

You know we are in agreement right? In this scenario the OP mentioned purchase through his company which would allow him to reclaim the VAT or seek an exemption under the Zero rating rule:

"Generally speaking, you can zero-rate supplies exported outside the European Union (EU), or sent to someone who's registered for VAT in another EU country, provided you follow strict rules, obtain and keep the necessary evidence, and obey all laws ... If you're sending goods to someone who is genuinely registered for VAT in the destination EU country, you can zero-rate the supply for VAT purposes, provided you meet all the conditions below" - http://www.hmrc.gov.uk/vat/managing/international/exports/goods.htm.

EDIT: And for the OP.

"Evidence of removal will include a number of things like:
- customer orders
- correspondence with customers
- sales invoices
- packing lists
- invoices from hauliers
- bank statements
- consignment notes showing the goods have been received in another EU country".

[maviczap]

You know we are in agreement right? In this scenario the OP mentioned purchase through his company which would allow him to reclaim the VAT or seek an exemption under the Zero rating rule:

"Generally speaking, you can zero-rate supplies exported outside the European Union (EU), or sent to someone who's registered for VAT in another EU country, provided you follow strict rules, obtain and keep the necessary evidence, and obey all laws ... If you're sending goods to someone who is genuinely registered for VAT in the destination EU country, you can zero-rate the supply for VAT purposes, provided you meet all the conditions below" - http://www.hmrc.gov.uk/vat/managing/international/exports/goods.htm.

EDIT: And for the OP.

"Evidence of removal will include a number of things like:
- customer orders
- correspondence with customers
- sales invoices
- packing lists
- invoices from hauliers
- bank statements
- consignment notes showing the goods have been received in another EU country".

Yes, we are in agreement of sorts, but the OP is collecting it himself so doesn't have any invoices from the haulier & is going to have difficulty proving its arrived in Sweden without a customs stamp on a document.

So therefore the easiest option for HMRC is to get him to claim the VAT back, once he's got the goods back to Sweden. It's self policing and doesn't require any action by any HMRC officer, except to process the claim for refund of the VAT once the goods have been exported and proven to have arrived in Sweden.

[Runako]

Yes, we are in agreement of sorts, but the OP is collecting it himself so doesn't have any invoices from the haulier & is going to have difficulty proving its arrived in Sweden without a customs stamp on a document.

So therefore the easiest option for HMRC is to get him to claim the VAT back, once he's got the goods back to Sweden. It's self policing and doesn't require any action by any HMRC officer, except to process the claim for refund of the VAT once the goods have been exported and proven to have arrived in Sweden.

Well, I thought your (or someone's) idea about the ferry documents was a good one. And the list above is not a complete exhaustive list. You don't have to provide all of these, just enough to prove its been sent/transported abroad. Its just a burden of proof thing.

The only clarification needed is what documents can be used if transporting. The act of transporting and sending is the same in that it doesn't change the nature of the zero rating. I'd suggest a combination of the above could suffice.

[maviczap]

Yes, but ferry documentation wouldn't be any good until after the event, so reclaiming the VAT rather than Zero rating is the option here

[Runako]

Well, we disagree on that point. Did you read the link? There's also this in there:

"Collection by customer
If your customer arranges to collect the goods from you, you'll need to be sure how and when the items are leaving the UK, and what evidence of removal they will give you, before you agree not to charge VAT. If you have any doubts at all, it's advisable to take a deposit that's the same as the VAT that would be charged. If they give you the evidence that the goods have left the country within the time limit, you can refund the deposit."

So there is no one way to prove this. As long as they can robustly prove the goods have left the country then that is sufficient in my view. Hence right back to my original post. Proof of purchase documents with VAT details and something to show the goods have left the country "within the time limit". In theory then, the buyer can send the proof of ferry travel to recover the deposit as suggested above. A lot more straightforward than reclaiming VAT.

I suppose HMRC will clarify soon enough.

[Nekkid]

Seems everyone loves a vat discussion!
Thanks to everyone for all the info.
I've now spoken to the tax agency here in Sweden and they said that I can just pay the UK vat then claim it back here because I'm collecting the goods in person.
Theoretically, it would be possible to go the zero rating route, but the problem for the seller is that proof of export relies heavily on freight documents and he wont want to risk that the documents he gets aren't enough to convince HMRC.
So, I'll just have to stump up the extra and hope the tax office here was telling the truth!
Charley

[Runako]

Whot???? Mav won? Lol :) Glad its sorted. Incidentally, if HMRC ever respond, could you post it here? (It might be useful for anyone with a similar query)