Touring season approaching, France?

[embee]

SInce it's the season to be jolly (sorry, wrong one) jollying off abroad, this is a topic of ongoing discussion elsewhere and I thought it might be useful info to pass on here.

What prompted it was the issue of the gendarmes now enforcing the long existent but seldom applied law about reflective stickers on helmets (potentially Eu135 on the spot fine for not having them, applies to any rider whatever nationality)

The DEAVILLE FORUM (http://www.deauvilleuk.org/forum/viewtopic.php?f=1&t=20122&start=15) has a member who has lived in France for some years, and he posted up his lates take on the biking situation over there, so here it is.

HELMET STICKERS
The stickers on helmets law has been in place for quite a long time, longer than I've been in France. The stickers are a b@st@ard to try and remove and you will need some sort of alcohol (as well as a scotch) to get them off - hence the damage to the helmet. They will check you have stickers in place if you are stopped.

BREATHALYSER
Breathalyser Test Kit law (éthylotest) in France has been subtly changed. In fine French fashion the law still stands, they just changed the amount of the fine to…

0€.

Yes you read that correctly… 0€!

I’ll leave it to you to decide if it’s going to be enforced and whether you need to carry a kit when visiting France.

HI-VIS
Hi Vis has caused a bit of a furore in France. Basically, last year a law was passed requiring riders to have reflective material on their clothing (shoulders and back) which could be seen from behind. As of 1st January 2013, this law has been scrapped. Though due to the French drivers’ propensity to use mobile phones in their cars, fiddle with their GPS, radios and MP3 players all while wearing earphones and totally oblivious to their surroundings, I would recommend as much visibility as possible. A very loud horn or loud pipes wouldn't go amiss either!

Note: If you break down you must wear Hi Vis while off the bike and, if there is a crash barrier, you must stand behind it if you are not attending to your bike.

FILTERING
Sense has prevailed at long last! According to FFMC – Fédération Française des Motards en Colère (the French Federation of Angry Bikers) a proposal to make Filtering legal in France has been put before the National Council for Road Safety by Prefect Régis Guyot– a copy of the proposal can be found here: http://www.ffmc.asso.fr/spip.php?article2469 (http://www.ffmc.asso.fr/spip.php?article2469). As it is in French I thought you might like a very brief synopsis.

The proposal suggests that:
Filtering should be allowed next to the left most lane
Speed while Filtering should be limited
Training should be given on how to do it
It should be practised on “a reasoned and reasonable basis, not anywhere, anytime and no matter how”.

This is a long way from being law so don't filter outside of the major cities.

SPEED CAMERAS
You may have heard that the Speed Cameras (Radar) in France no longer need warning signs and or replacing them with electronic speed signs. Well, it seems that’s about to change and they are going to revert back to the old system of a warning sign at least 500m before a fixed Camera. It seems the electronic speed signs which they installed instead were, on average, lasting about 6 months before turning up their toes.

They also have "Stealth Speed Cameras" i.e. one which are nigh on impossible to see. They are installing Average Speed Cameras and they have unmarked cars driving around with speed cameras.

Now, you’ll think, “not a problem for us Brit registered vehicles”. At the moment, not really as you’ll only have to cough up if stopped by the Gendarmes and they check-up. But, the French are trying to make reciprocal arrangements with other European countries to issue fines and points. Belgium and France already have such an arrangement. How long before the UK joins in?

On the subject of Speed Cameras, in France it is illegal to have a Speed Camera POI warning on your Sat Nag. Garmin have already updated theirs, well mine has been, to “Zone Dangereuse” (Danger Zone). If you’re visiting France over the summer, make sure yours has been updated (or the Speed Camera POIs removed) or you’ll lose it if stopped – an expensive reminder.


OLD BILL AND DOCUMENTS
In general the Gendarmes are relatively tolerant. The Police Municipal are not. Whether in France for the French Moto Grand Prix at Le Mans in May, Le Mans 24 hour race in June or just to enjoy the delights of France (hic) here are some tips if you are stopped.

1. Be Polite. When approached say “Bon jour Monsieur l’agent” or “Bon soir Monsieur l’agent” first. Don’t just start talking, greet them - extremely important. It can make the difference between a fine and a warning.
2. Give them your documents in this order: Driving Licence; Passport (or ID); Insurance; V5; MOT (if required). This is because, when seeing a UK driving licence, they may just tell you to continue by saying “allez”, especially if it is just a general roadside check.
3. If you have broken the law, if or when asked, admit it and apologise. They’re not stupid; they stopped you for a reason – unless it’s a general roadside check.
4. If your French isn’t very good say to the Officer “Je suis anglais, je ne parle pas très bien français. Pouvez-vous parler plus lentement.” (“I am English I don't speak French very well. Can you speak slowly.”), they may then speak to you in English. Quite a lot speak reasonable English whether they use it with you or not - so watch what you say in English! If you don’t understand something, ask them to repeat it “Je ne comprends pas pouvez-vous répéter s'il vous plait.”
5. Foreign visitors are seen as “cash-cows” by some Police and they do have quotas, so keep to the rules of the French roads. Signs with 130 don’t mean 130mph but 130kph (80mph). They can and will crush your pride and joy for excessive speed. There is also a story doing the rounds of someone being caught doing about 150mph. The Police stopped him. Called their Captain who came out and tore up his driving licence there and then in front of him. No judge, no jury, no licence. Whether true or not, I don’t know, but the scary truth is they are allowed to do it!

FINES
Fines for minor infractions (i.e. not putting your foot on the ground at a Stop sign - don't ask me how I know this) used to be relatively small, 35€ upwards. Most have been raised to 135€. If you don't have the money on you don't worry, the Police will escort you to the nearest cash machine!

Regards,
John

[Serdna]

My recent experience this January was:

163kph on the motorway in a hired MINI. Coming round a right bend and in a cut out a few meters back from the motorway impossible to see in time were the Gendarme in a blue Subaru Impreza. They took me to the next Aire where I spoke with them and showed them my documents. I pretty much treated the situation as outlined above, but we spoke in English. I think I said Hello Sir. Anyway we had to go to a cash point off of the motorway to withdraw cash. 90 euro fine, no points.

Sucked a bit because we were on a tight budget, but we learned a lesson. If you want to speed in France you have to be prepared to pay. No more speeding in France for me.

[Murley.]

Makes me think twice before going across the channel. What a weird ass country. Thanks for summarising it all though.

[Runako]

Very useful post. Most of this I knew but the sticker is new to me. Two questions, why the stickers and where to get them? (one) And last year I took photocopies of my passport and insurance rather than risk losing the originals. Will they accept this? (two) I had all my original vehicle documents.

[embee]

I just ordered some of these off the 'bay (http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/Reflective-helmet-stickers-x-4-Meet-French-Helmet-regulation-law-France-/230956510650?pt=UK_Motorcycle_Parts&hash=item35c614adba#ht_391wt_930), which is what prompted me to make this thread.

The rules for the stickers is, as you'd expect, ridiculously complicated, but in essence 4 stickers, front & back and each side. Minimum area is 12.5cm^2, the shape must either accommodate a 40mm diameter circle (but can be bigger or oval etc) or rectangle with the smaller side at least 2cm. The rule also says they must not be removable without damaging the helmet (! bizarre, but so French) but I doubt the gendarmes will be enforcing this bit too rigorously.

You must have originals of documents, but I always carry photocopies also, and leave another photocopy at home.

[Runako]

I just ordered some of these off the 'bay (http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/Reflective-helmet-stickers-x-4-Meet-French-Helmet-regulation-law-France-/230956510650?pt=UK_Motorcycle_Parts&hash=item35c614adba#ht_391wt_930), which is what prompted me to make this thread.

The rules for the stickers is, as you'd expect, ridiculously complicated, but in essence 4 stickers, front & back and each side. Minimum area is 12.5cm^2, the shape must either accommodate a 40mm diameter circle (but can be bigger or oval etc) or rectangle with the smaller side at least 2cm. The rule also says they must not be removable without damaging the helmet (! bizarre, but so French) but I doubt the gendarmes will be enforcing this bit too rigorously.

You must have originals of documents, but I always carry photocopies also, and leave another photocopy at home.

Ta

[fizzwheel]

Makes me think twice before going across the channel. What a weird ass country. Thanks for summarising it all though.

I wouldnt let it put you off. The pro's of riding abroad and exploring IMHO far outweight the negative's of a bit of French bureaucracy.

[Bluefish]

Good info there, I'd never heard of the helmet stickers before either, good job we never got stopped. Apparently some new helmet's come with them, mrs has just said the last one she got a couple of years ago came with some stickers.

[DJ123]

I went abroad 3 times last year, all through France. Even at the Moto GP with all the Police presence, talking to them/getting directions it was never mentioned to us about helmet stickers.

[Spank86]

The rule also says they must not be removable without damaging the helmet (! bizarre, but so French).

You would think this would fall foul of EU free travel rules.

[embee]

There are all sorts of local rules in different countries when it comes to the road, the UK is one of the most relaxed, we don't even have to carry our licence or vehicle docs. In other countries you need spare bulbs, spare spectacles if you wear them, fire extinguisher, first aid kit, hi-vis for each person in the vehicle, 2 warning triangles, winter tyres, the list goes on.

It is interesting how laws can be applied to foreign vehicles/drivers though. French bikes don't have MOT's (controle technique), but can come over here effectively with no MOT quite freely. What if our police started ticketing French bikers for having no MOT?

[Spank86]

I know there are different rules but France seems to me to be the only place where you have to vandalise your equipment.

I mean you shouldn't put ANY stickers on your helmet really let alone ones that will damage it coming off.

[Bluefish]

That's the point though why would you ever have to take them off? It's the Law, Unless they made it ok for visitors to have removable ones, which would be common sence.

[Spank86]

That's the point though why would you ever have to take them off? It's the Law, Unless they made it ok for visitors to have removable ones, which would be common sence.
Because I don't live in France so it's not the law everywhere and I'd argue they could be a distraction to drivers on British roads who are unused to them.



That said, it doesn't really matter if I'm taking them off or not, I'm still putting adhesive stickers on a helmet that specifically says not to. Have they tested them with every helmet?

[Rogue_Shadow]

Off to France in June and all the motorcycle specific laws past and present is a real ballache.
I could understand the high vis jacket, but the adhesive stickers onto your helmet is too far.
How do they plan on testing the " cannot be removed without damaging the helmet" section?

" Yep, your right. Those stickers are permanent, look at the hole it's left! "
" Your helmet is now unusable in our Country, Got another? We'll test that one too" :D

I'll be using removable reflectors & pay the fine if they get assy about it.

[Griff-SV]

Thanks for sharing this info, good stuff to know :)

With regards to the helmet stickers, being the pain that they are, I would consider buying myself a cheaper lid to put them on. But then you could argue is it worth spending the money if you didn't do many trips to France.

[Runako]

Thanks for sharing this info, good stuff to know :)

With regards to the helmet stickers, being the pain that they are, I would consider buying myself a cheaper lid to put them on. But then you could argue is it worth spending the money if you didn't do many trips to France.

Surely you want to wear the best and most appropriate equipment for a trip to a foreign country where the roads are unfamiliar and there is a greater detriment should an issue occur.

[Griff-SV]

Surely you want to wear the best and most appropriate equipment for a trip to a foreign country where the roads are unfamiliar and there is a greater detriment should an issue occur.

True, I was just thinking of an idea round having stickers on your lid if you didn't want the marks there from removing them.

[Runako]

True, I was just thinking of an idea round having stickers on your lid if you didn't want the marks there from removing them.

Yeah I understand. The fact that we're debating it shows how much of a stupid rule it is.

In fact, in my experience, French drivers (not in the big cities where its mental) are far more aware of motorcyclists than British drivers. When I first encountered this, I thought they were crazy in how far some of them would pull to the verge of the road to allow you to pass. But then I discovered this was commonplace, as everyone including Lorries would do much the same.

[Griff-SV]

Like you say, it is a stupid rule. However when I get my act together & ride over there I don't think it would bother me that much.

[matt_rehm_hext]

Stupid rule - helmet stickers. I rode to Brussels and back in a day with a numberplate made from cardboard written on with marker pen after mine fell off. No problems in France and Belgium and as I entered the M20 on the way home, ended up in front of a police car expecting to get pulled but luckily, nothing.

[embee]

Yes it's a stupid rule, but I always tend to work on the basis of giving them as little reason to get stroppy as possible. You never know, as the writer of the article said, the plods can be on quotas and foreign bikers near borders would be a very easy target for a few Eu135 on-the-spot fines, and if you haven't got the stickers you're guilty, clear cut no defence.

A couple of quid for a few stickers or risk a possible Eu135 fine, now let me think.............................

I'm sure it will all go away, I've never had any issues with the French plod in 35yrs of riding over there, and I love it.

[dyzio]

I forgot, do you need to have the counterpart with you when traveling in Europe?

[DJ123]

Yes, card part, paper part, MOT, V5 & insurance certificate

[dyzio]

Cheers :thumright:

[victor_meldrew]

True, I was just thinking of an idea round having stickers on your lid if you didn't want the marks there from removing them.

Put the sticker onto some gaffer tape, stick the gaffer tape to your helmet - wont damage it when you pull it off then ? Could even cut the gaffer tape to size n shape so that its not visible :)

i "had a chat " when I was in france a few years ago on my old 89 VFR for doing about 100 mph along the toll motorway .. I stopped for a fag and a drink, he pulled in behind me , had one of me fags , a chat about bikes and off he went with a " not so fast " comment as he left - lucky by all accounts !

[Specialone]

Surely you want to wear the best and most appropriate equipment for a trip to a foreign country where the roads are unfamiliar and there is a greater detriment should an issue occur.

For the record, a cheaper lid DOES NOT always compromise on safety, some of the cheaper lids have higher ratings than expensive ones.

I'm not putting bloody stickers on my £400 lid, it ain't happening.


In regards to the OP, speed camera warnings on your satnav are illegal but they aren't allowed to search your satnav, if pulled over just turn it off.

[Ajwou]

Found a few things on the internet with regards to motorcycle stickers in France. Here is one of them:
- The law is applied to helmets sold in France, so if you come from abroad, you're fine. So don't go and start buying stickers if you're coming to France.

Not sure if it's true.

I.

[Runako]

For the record, a cheaper lid DOES NOT always compromise on safety, some of the cheaper lids have higher ratings than expensive ones.

I'm not putting bloody stickers on my £400 lid, it ain't happening.

Well this was not really my point. If people bought their helmets only on the safety rating you wouldn't have mentioned the cost of yours. The poster mentioned buying a cheap helmet to put the stickers on so as not to ruin his main helmet. The impression is that the "better" hemlet would be staying at home safe and sound, which was the point I was addressing.

[Runako]

Found a few things on the internet with regards to motorcycle stickers in France. Here is one of them:
- The law is applied to helmets sold in France, so if you come from abroad, you're fine. So don't go and start buying stickers if you're coming to France.

Not sure if it's true.

I.

Rest of your post missing dude. This sounds like useful info so post up a reference or a link to this info as it will be useful for me this summer. ta

[Ajwou]

Rest of your post missing dude. This sounds like useful info so post up a reference or a link to this info as it will be useful for me this summer. ta

Sorry mate, here is the link:

http://news.motorbiker.org/blogs.nsf/dx/france-some-clarification-about-the-motorcycle-helmet-stickers.htm

[Runako]

Cheers buddy

[embee]

Not sure that I agree with that interpretation of the rule. My French isn't perfect by a long way, but as I read the rule in the link it says that all riders and passengers of bikes and mopeds must wear a helmet conforming to the law, that's the first bit.

It then goes on to say that any helmet sold in France after such a date must comply with these specific regulations including a date of manufacture and the reflective areas.

It definitely does NOT say that the rule ONLY applies to helmets sold in France and subsequently worn in France, nor does it say that it does NOT apply to foreigners. Obviously the French have no way to insist other countries apply any particular standard or marking requirement to helmets sold there, but they can require riders to comply with the local law when in France.

It does refer to safety/date mark regulations of other EU states being recognised, but that doesn't necessarily mean that a rider on French roads doesn't have to comply with having the reflective bits.

Somewhat subtle but nonetheless important technicalities.

As usual the letter of the law is just as confusing as the general debate.

At the end of the day, you decide what you want to do.

[Runako]

Not sure that I agree with that interpretation of the rule. My French isn't perfect by a long way, but as I read the rule in the link it says that all riders and passengers of bikes and mopeds must wear a helmet conforming to the law, that's the first bit.

It then goes on to say that any helmet sold in France after such a date must comply with these specific regulations including a date of manufacture and the reflective areas.


Your interpretation is only partly right. Having read this for myself I've now concluded the following (SKIP TO THE BOTTOM FOR THE SHORT VERSION):

Fre:"Les dispositions de l'article 1er de l'arrêté du 21 novembre 1975 susvisé sont remplacées par les dispositions suivantes:
<< Les casques des conducteurs et passagers des véhicules relevant des titres IV et V du code de la route doivent être conformes: ..."

Eng: Stuff stuff stuff ... "helmets must comply with either ..."

Fre: prescriptions de la norme française NF S72-305, homologuée par décision du 11 septembre 1984, et porter une estampille de conformité permettant de déterminer la date de fabrication;
<< - soit aux prescriptions du règlement no 22, amendement 04 de Genève susvisé, relatives à l'homologation des casques de protection et de leurs écrans pour conducteurs et passagers de motocycles et de cyclomoteurs et porter les inscriptions et étiquettes prévues aux paragraphes 4 et 5 dudit règlement qui sont indiquées en annexe au présent arrêté ..."

Eng: Blah blah blah "... the requirements of the french motorcycle safety standards ... or ... some other common EU safety standard etc etc"

Fre: "Ces casques devront aussi porter les éléments de signalisation en matériaux rétroréfléchissants prévus au paragraphe 6.16 dudit règlement. >> Toutefois les casques conformes à des réglementations, normes ou spécifications techniques des Etats membres de l'Union européenne ou d'un Etat partie à l'accord sur l'Espace économique européen, équivalentes du point de vue des performances techniques assurant la protection des utilisateurs, des procédures de contrôle de la qualité et de la signification du marquage apposé sur les casques peuvent être acceptés. ..."

Eng: more detail ... "[must carry] retroreflective stickers ... [HOWEVER] Helmets conforming to the technical and safety requirements of EU member states can be accepted".

However, it then makes specific mention of "de la signification du marquage apposé sur les casques", which to my mind is suggesting that the EU member state must make provisions addressing markings on helmets.

BOTTOM

This is the good guidance from the Coordinatrice juridique de la FFMC:

"R431-1 of the code of the road states that all riders and pillions of motorcycles must wear an approved helmet and that helmet must have retro-reflective elements attached. The text does not exempt foreign riders. We can therefore deduce that British riders are subject to these regulations When they travel in France.

The standards of approval for helmets are the same in France as the UK. They are described in regulation 22-05 which leaves the choice to each State to impose the retro-reflective elements. France chose to impose these elements. Therefore a helmet without retro-reflective elements is deemed as not approved and justifies a fine of €135."

So it seems the UK made no provisions for stickers in British laws so our helmet regulations don't completely meet the French standard, hence the requirement to use stickers.

[embee]

I think we are in agreement here.


I was referring to the link comment which said it didn't apply to Brits, only to helmets sold in France, which is definitely not true. I hadn't found the last paragraph you quote, which sums it all up nicely. Strange as it may seem, foreign laws do actually apply to us Brits when we'ere over there! ;)

[Runako]

I think we are in agreement here.
...

Yes, I know this is your original advice, was specifically referring to the actual wording of the regulations as written (in French).

Unfortunately, I'll have to purchase some stickers :( Although, my cunning plan is not to apply them (carry them with me) and feign a little bit of British ignorance - "Desole monsieur, je ne sais pas! Je vais le faire immediatement! ;-)" ... or would the wink be a little excessive/gay? ;)

[embee]

... or would the wink be a little excessive/gay? ;)

Mais oui, mais c'est de rigueur.

[Ajwou]

Found more info about those funny stickers ;-)

http://ukfrancebikers.com/2013/03/16/france-compulsory-reflective-stickers-on-all-helmets/

[Runako]

Found more info about those funny stickers ;-)

http://ukfrancebikers.com/2013/03/16/france-compulsory-reflective-stickers-on-all-helmets/

Yes, if you actually read my post, it takes some of the advice from the comments in that article. The comments link to the FFMC guidance, part of which I've paraphrased above (so old news ;))

[Ajwou]

Yes, if you actually read my post, it takes some of the advice from the comments in that article. The comments link to the FFMC guidance, part of which I've paraphrased above (so old news ;))

And I thought I'll be the first one ;-). Maybe next time :-)

[Runako]

And I thought I'll be the first one ;-). Maybe next time :-)

Ha ha, I was hoping your post was going to have something saying we dont have to wear the bloody stickers, but I guess the French will be the French!

[Ajwou]

True. I should go and get some of those lovely french stickers ;-)

[Skybaba]

Just bought a new helmet today and can't even imagine sticking non-removable stickers on the helmet.