Changing gears without using the clutch?

[Vinc]

Hi Guys.

I have ridden for 6 months now, and I am loving it. So this question is based on inexperience!

I have now begun to rider smother and I play around with the gears, try to change faster and better.

Today it felt like I could change gears upwards (1->2->3) without using the clutch, I didn't have the guts to try changing down again.
Is this really possible, unless the gears are aligned by chance?
Is it because my clutch is adjusted wrongly?

There's lost of torque from the engine and nothing suggests that I am riding on the clutch.

Cheers!

[Stuuk1]

Hi Guys.

I have ridden for 6 months now, and I am loving it. So this question is based on inexperience!

I have now begun to rider smother and I play around with the gears, try to change faster and better.

Today it felt like I could change gears upwards (1->2->3) without using the clutch, I didn't have the guts to try changing down again.
Is this really possible, unless the gears are aligned by chance?
Is it because my clutch is adjusted wrongly?

There's lost of torque from the engine and nothing suggests that I am riding on the clutch.

Cheers!

Being at the right revs, yes. Same as a car.

Although I don't know the ins and outs I wouldn't recommend doing it without a quick shifter fitted..

[jambo]

Changing up without the clutch is fairly easy, just apply a little upward pressure on the lever as you roll off the throttle and it should slip in. You can go down as well but that's trickier to do smoothly.

Jambo
Sent from my thingie

[Sid Squid]

From some time ago:

Clutchless changes...good or bad? Well I can tell you, categorically, right now:

It depends...mainly on the specific technique used.

A well executed clutchless change puts no more wear/stress/load on anything, and clearly puts less wear on the clutch, 'cos you didn't use it.

Upchanges:

There are several ways to do it, all essentially similar, differing only in detail and by the advantage they may give, (if you get it right that is).

Fastest change, used as if you're on a timed quarter, (ie drag racing):
Preload the lever firmly, roll out the throttle *just* enough for the dogs to be unloaded and the change to occur. With practice (ie lots of time on the strip), this can be a lightning fast change, the gear will go through very quickly, the time taken from on, to off, to on throttle is where the practice/skill lies, the further out you roll the throttle the longer it takes, the less you roll it out the harder the gear change is which takes longer too.
Downside: Wear, on everything, forks/grooves/pins/drum/dogs the lot, can be worth lots of time though, (relatively speaking, in a quick quarter), that said, as long as you don't make a constant habit of it, you won't break anything that quickly.

Lazy change, changing gear smoooooothly and unhurriedly just exactly like you would with the clutch, only...without:
Roll throttle out, lift gear lever, roll throttle back in again. If you do it right this change can be smoother than a cashmere codpiece, what you're looking for is for there to be no 'jerk' in the drive, bit of practice though and anyone can do it, the trick, (if there is one), is to only drop the throttle out to the point at which you would need it to be so that in the next gear you would neither be accelerating or decelerating from the speed at which you initiated the change, thus allows all the bits and pieces to be revolving at as near the same speed as possible thus they mesh together as imperceptibly as possible.
Downside: None, if you get it right, which isn't hard. Won't win you any drag races though.

Downchanges, Bit different this, similar principle to lazy change, that is: Smooooth.

First some things to know:
No matter what gear you're in, when the engine isn't running the speed of everything is nil, (yeah I know, blindingly bloody obvious, but hold that thought), that is; all the same speed. Using convenient figures, say that at 10,000rpm 1st gear makes the output shaft of the gearbox revolve at 1000rpm, 2nd 2000rpm, 3rd 3000rpm etc. Knowing this it can easily be seen that the faster the engine speed is, the further apart, relatively speaking, the speeds of the gearbox parts are. At 10,000rpm the relative speeds are 1000rpm apart, at 5000rpm 500rpm apart, at tickover (say 1000rpm, easy numbers see? I like that), the relative speeds only differ by 100rpm.

A smooth change occurs when the various bits that need to mesh are revolving at as similar speeds as is possible, in practice the slowest that you can run the engine is tickover, if you were to change down clutchless at as close to tickover as possible the relative parts would be as best speed matched as is possible. If you were to add the slightest smidgeon of throttle just as you go to change, this would unload the 'box and make the change easier, also it would speed the drive into the gearbox up a bit, such that it would be running at the slightly higher speed that the lower gear would demand to run at the same speed, just as in the the lazy change above.
Downside: Not easy to get right, and basically no advantage anyway, save for a useful technique to have when the clutch cable breaks at an inconvenient time, I have done several hundred miles like this, getting neutral while still rolling makes all the difference.

[muzikill]

Dont fanny about with a sv engine. A broken gearbox isnt an expense you want to deal with.

[NTECUK]

Bikes have bigger dogs in the g box, so changing up is allot easier than a car.

[Sid Squid]

Dont fanny about with a sv engine.
SV is no better or worse than any other gearbox in this respect, a good or bad gearchange is not solely dependant on the use, or not, of the clutch.

Bikes have bigger dogs in the g box, so changing up is allot easier than a car.
Cars and bikes have completely different methods of gearbox construction, there's no parallel.

[thebug]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PdrUj1KqNRI&sns=em

This is a fairly good video on clutchless gear changing if u want to give it a go, from the guy that taught me to ride.

[NTECUK]

http://www.importtuner.com/tech/impp_1109_synchromesh_vs_dog_box/viewall.html
difference tween car syncro and competition dog box

[Vinc]

NTEC, the suggestion in that article is to change gears as quickly as possible? I suppose as violently as possible?

Sent from my HTC Desire using Tapatalk 2

[Bluefish]

You can do it up and down, the problem is, will you knacker the box before you get any good at it? And what for to save half a second a change, is it really worth it? Joke, I believe ACME do anchors so you don't have to use the brakes ;0)

[sam anon]

Another downside to clutchless downshifts are that it's far easier to find a false neutral.

When braking for a corner, the last thing you want to happen is wonder why you're not slowing down very quickly, why your bike is suddenly very quiet, then realise you're not in gear and have to get it back in, while doing everything else a corner requires.

[Paul the 6th]

I like the method of changing upwards only applying a about 10-15% of clutch so that it barely disengages = quick smooth up change, but still with the pre-applied pressure on the shifter and slightly unloading the engine to relieve pressure...

Same for downchange but with a bit of a blip to help the relative speed of the incoming lower gear match that of the outgoing higher gear.

Just practice being smooth and looking far enough ahead that all this lot naturally falls into place when you're in the cosmos flowing from bend to bend effortlessly :) that's where true happiness lives.

[NTECUK]

re NTEC, the suggestion in that article is to change gears as quickly as possible? I suppose as violently as possible?
Yes well when I had a Cossie(The shame) I Cut the teeth off 1/3 of the sycro hub on 2 nd and 3 rd and dumped the rings.
It was easy to smack it in gear .Broke in spectacular fashion lol

[NTECUK]

Having a vac slipper clutch lets the rsv do down shifts quite easy.
handy if you being lazy.But no good when your gunning the thing .Clutch,Bilp click far better downwards

[rb8989]

Some bikes "like" it more than others. The zx7r has a robust but clunky box as it's basically a homogenated race bike (RR engine). Take your time shifting at higher revs with the clutch and its a clunky, unpleasant ride. Fine at low revs but if you want to ride it hard into the revs you wont want to use the clutch, positive pressure roll off 3kish rpm boot it in. The linkage is also pretty sloppy stock so you do boot it in, some people switch to GP pattern to get more purchase. Some think it was somewhat designed with gp shift in mind as it really works better on that box (same box as 9r).

Essay over, it's a common thing on some bikes but the sv was fine with and without the clutch at any rpm.

[yorkie_chris]

Dont fanny about with a sv engine. A broken gearbox isnt an expense you want to deal with.

The gearboxes on early pointies are weaker than the other ones. However they can go bang without much warning or cause.

I have no idea how much hammer my curvy gearbox has had, but I tend to ride SV's quite harshly on the gears. Quite mobile tapping up and down the box all the time. Quite how many gearchanges that 'box must have done I've got no idea... half a million?



Clutchless going up... small lift-off of the throttle... snick... up it goes...
Clutchless going down... very low rpm, tiny blip of positive throttle, down it goes.

If it goes in smooth and there's no banging and crunching then you're not harming owt.

[Dicky Ticker]

If it goes in smooth and there's no banging and crunching then you're not harming owt.[/QUOTE]

If it doesn't you can chipping teeth or knocking whole teeth off the gear cogs which is an expensive hobby

[markc123]

If it doesn't you can chipping teeth or knocking whole teeth off the gear cogs which is an expensive hobby

Not going to happen in a constant mesh gearbox....

Mines done 20K and still shifts perfectly. I use the clutch from 1st to second and on downshifts (except while the clutch cable broke), everything else is clutchless. Well worth learning and can be super smooth.

[SvNewbie]

You could knock a tooth off of one of the dogs...not that it is likely to happen.

[Dicky Ticker]

I notice you don't change down clutchless which was part of what the OP was asking.
As for as not being able to damage a constant mesh box your head is in the clouds.

I can change up or down on my bike clutchless,only using the clutch to pull away from standstill but I am not advocating other people to do it because if they damage the box while "learning" it is expensive to repair while you are saying you can't damage the box

[markc123]

I'm in no way saying you can't damage the box, I'm merely stating that you cannot damage the teeth of the gears like you suggest.

I think people should learn techniques like these, and all it takes is a little mechanical sympathy to avoid damage.

[Dicky Ticker]

So if it isn't the teeth on the gears what makes all the crunching noise?

[markc123]

So if it isn't the teeth on the gears what makes all the crunching noise?

The dogs.

[KobayashiMaru]

I watched the Roadcraft Nottingham vid to learn about clutchless shifting after I shifted up with no clutch forgetting to use it. Thought I'd brake something but as long as it's smooth it's fine. I now clutch 1-2 then clutchless up to 6th then clutch all the way back down. Still learning to blip on downshifts on a bike. Can heel and toe fine in a car so will just come with a bit more practice.

[yorkie_chris]

I don't really see the utility of clutchless downshifts except as a nice way to get home if your clutch cable snaps.

Clutchless on the way up, OTOH, is the smoothest way to change gear. A lot of people who have driven cars change gear WAY too slowly which if riding with a pillion means a massive lurch as they fart about.
Even if you do use a little slice of clutch, nothing wrong with that, the change should still be about as fast.

Too little chain slack will make your shifts feel notchy and horrible too, you need that bit of gob there to allow everything a bit of backlash to move.

[kiggles]

Dont fanny about with a sv engine. A broken gearbox isnt an expense you want to deal with.

i did clutchless gear changes after a year of riding. Regretting it now as first second and neutral give me a headache now. Since servicing bike seems better but still not as good as it used to be

[Aquila]

I was out this afternoon doing clutchless upshifting,never thought about it before,must admit its a lot easier & smoother riding,pleasantly surprised.This forum is full of surprises.

[muzikill]

The gearboxes on early pointies are weaker than the other ones. However they can go bang without much warning or cause.

No joke ..... :)

[Fallout]

I tried some clutchless shifting on the Tiger today, after reading this thread. It never felt right with the Gixxer, but I suspect this is because the rev range between gears is longer so its harder to get it right. The Tiger is a piece of pish to clutchless upshift. Preload, roll back as if I was gonna pull in the clutch, and it slots in as smooth as a babies bum hole. Didn't try down shifting.

Its interesting to learn, as it gives you an idea of how accurate your roll off and blips are when changing, but I'm gonna stick with Mr clutch. :)

[Spank86]

I wouldn't sci clutch less shift but I reckon a lot of the time I only get the clutch half in. When I think back a lot of time at speed I'm not fully clutching in on the lever just snapping it an inch or two.

Had a few false neutrals mind but I think I've had them with a full pull of the lever too.

[Fallout]

That's because you're limp-ankled Ad.

[Spank86]

I prefer to think of it as having a light touching the controls.

[NTECUK]

Well you need a light touch to feel when the box is just right to go but a positive selection to engage it.
A bit of both.

[yorkie_chris]

I wouldn't sci clutch less shift but I reckon a lot of the time I only get the clutch half in. When I think back a lot of time at speed I'm not fully clutching in on the lever just snapping it an inch or two.

Had a few false neutrals mind but I think I've had them with a full pull of the lever too.

99% that's related to not puishing the lever up far enough rather than clutch related.

Look in any gearbox there is couple of thou of play between gears engaging... on worn boxes this gets wider. But if it was not there then it would try be in two gears at once and discombooberate itself rather violently.

[NTECUK]

If you gun it false neutrals appear mainly due to above as a result of slidding down the seat.

[markc123]

99% that's related to not puishing the lever up far enough rather than clutch related.

Look in any gearbox there is couple of thou of play between gears engaging... on worn boxes this gets wider. But if it was not there then it would try be in two gears at once and discombooberate itself rather violently.

Unless is a Honda MotoGP box, which somehow manages to be in 2 gears at once for a tiny fraction of a second. Without exploding into very expensive shrapnel. Pretty impressive stuff.

[ChrisCurvyS]

I hardly ever use the clutch for upshifts these days. I find I can shift up really smoothly and quickly at low-ish revs (around the 4/5k mark) but it gets a bit jerkier when the revs are higher, despite what a lot of people will tell you about clutchless upshifts.

Anyone else find that?

[NTECUK]

Oh that's back to front to most peiple Chris.

[ChrisCurvyS]

Oh that's back to front to most peiple Chris.
Yeah thought so. Was trying to work out why while riding today - think it's because when I'm revving it a bit, I'm also pressing on a bit so the throttle is pulled back further and thus needs to be closed more violently.

Prob also more focused on potential hazards when accelerating hard to less grey matter devoted to hand-foot coordination! Otherwise, my upshifts are DSG-smooth.

[NTECUK]

I thought about up shifting comming of the avenue roundabout onto the A12 slip.

The more i though about it the clunker it was.
So don't dewll on it
I'm sure it will just happen.