Shooting & stuff

[85jas]

Went shooting with my uncle yesterday for the first time; despite the lack of critters and my inexperience I managed to bag myself a nice fat (flying!) wood pigeon and a rabbit, the only successes of the day - beginners luck eh :rolleyes: It was a great day, good bit of family bonding, learned many a skill and now have dinner for the next two evenings! :thumright:

I was idly wondering if there's anyone on here that shoots? The only person I know with a shotgun certificate is my uncle (and he's greek cypriot and pretty old-skool!) and at some point I'd like to apply for a shotgun certificate so purely out of interest....

1. Has anyone had a shotgun or FAC denied / revoked and if so, why?
2. At the moment I seem to be moving house a lot; has anyone had problems transferring their certificate across different police authorities?
3. How the heck did you find somewhere to shoot?
4. What do you shoot at? What do you shoot with?
5. Anyone want some of this rabbit stew? In fact, I retract that... ;)

[Specialone]

I'm gonna be applying for my shotgun cert soon, but for clays not animals.

Apparently they are easy to get and even easier to lose.

[timwilky]

The only problem I had was a policy issue.

Lancs refused to add another rifle to my FAC as policy was no more than 6. Even when I put a copy of the firearms act in front of the copper and said where is this limit defined?

I briefly moved to West Mercia juristiction and got 9 on my FAC. When I moved back I had broken the mythical limit and never had any issues when I then started adding strange requests for black powder pistols etc.

[Wideboy]

I have .22 air rifle and a few of us go shooting on one of their relatives land, currently not able to use my rifle as i think I've pushed it over the limit threshold. my friends is registered as a firearm as its surpassed the limit.

As for the getting land problem, most farmers will be more than happy to allow you on their land if you say you're only shooting pests and get insurance. There is a rifle association (i forget the name) that you join for 40 quid a year and it provides insurance cover, show the farmer the card and they'll more than likely say yes as it shows you're not a complete pikey and he's going to make some money should anything happen.

I've only recently got into it and its bluddy addictive, not after a shotgun but would like to progress onto a proper rifle in the future. My rifle is kill effective over about 80-90 yards so it packs some punch, upgraded to a 3-9x50AO scope on it which I'm yet waiting to use.

[ethariel]

1. IIRC Prior criminal record/commit an offencel can result in the loss of even a clearly demonstrated right to have a shotgun ticket (Dunno how much things have changed but i was always under the impression that the FO has to find a reason not to give you a shotgun ticket, while the onus is on you to prove why you should have a FAC)

2. I never moved while i held a FAC but storage of a shotgun is easy, of a FAC is a bit trickier - Keep your guns in a club armoury?

3. Grew up with it, got my first .410 at age 8

4. Used to hunt - everything from vermin control to deer stalking and the odd cull. Also full bore pistol and rifle shooting never up to ISPC standards really tho

5. Errr no thanks, retracted or not :P

[grimey121uk]

I have both a FAC and A SGC, at the moment I use my shotgun for clays and my rifle for bunnies. Its a right for people to have a shotgun (assuming your police checks come back OK and you can store them securely) where as anything on a FAC must be justified. I got my FAC at the end of last year which gives me permission to acquire a 22LR and a 17HMR, both with restrictions on the amount of ammo I can acquire and keep. The gun I wanted was a 17HMR however the FEO wasn't to keen, preferring me to get a 22LR instead but I stuck to my guns and managed to justify the HMR due the the land I shoot on requiring me to take longer range shots plus ricochets can be a big problem on the slower/heavier 22LR rounds.

Depending what you want to do insurance and legal cover is a must, I'm with BASC which is around £60 a year, my main motivation was fear of accusations being made by crappy neighbours, bearing in mind your guns will be taken immediately on an accusation being made. If it ever happens the legal cover will no doubt come in handy.

It may be worth you reading the pigeonwatch forums as they cover all aspects of UK shooting.

Anyway, shameless excuse for a picture
http://farm4.staticflickr.com/3799/8846780952_2bbcdc4245_b.jpg


I've only recently got into it and its bluddy addictive, not after a shotgun but would like to progress onto a proper rifle in the future. My rifle is kill effective over about 80-90 yards so it packs some punch, upgraded to a 3-9x50AO scope on it which I'm yet waiting to use.

I'm assuming you mean 80 to 90 feet, as a general rule with a standard sub 12 ft lb air rifle shouldn't be shooting at vermin beyond 35 to 50 yards depending on the shooters ability. Standard velocity 22LR round are generally only shot up to 130-150 yards and thay have over 12x the muzzle energy of an air gun. I'm not saying an airgun won't have the ability to kill at that range but 90 yards with 12 ft lb will not give consistant clean kills. At 90 yards your going to have over 2 of drop, even a 5mph wind will take you inches off and you will have under 2ft lb of energy left.

[85jas]

I'm gonna be applying for my shotgun cert soon, but for clays not animals.
Good stuff, what does it cost to shoot clays? I'd like to do it once I've got my sgc, get some practice in. I think I tried for 12 pigeon that day and only got one - and that was probably more luck than judgement!

Lancs refused to add another rifle to my FAC as policy was no more than 6. Even when I put a copy of the firearms act in front of the copper and said where is this limit defined?

I briefly moved to West Mercia juristiction and got 9 on my FAC. When I moved back I had broken the mythical limit and never had any issues when I then started adding strange requests for black powder pistols etc.
So on the whole would you say that the firearms officers you've met over the years tend towards the less or more helpful? I can imagine some are a pain (cf. your experience in Lancs) but the rest I'd imagine are probably quite helpful...

I have .22 air rifle and a few of us go shooting on one of their relatives land, currently not able to use my rifle as i think I've pushed it over the limit threshold. my friends is registered as a firearm as its surpassed the limit.

As for the getting land problem, most farmers will be more than happy to allow you on their land if you say you're only shooting pests and get insurance. There is a rifle association (i forget the name) that you join for 40 quid a year and it provides insurance cover, show the farmer the card and they'll more than likely say yes as it shows you're not a complete pikey and he's going to make some money should anything happen.

I've only recently got into it and its bluddy addictive, not after a shotgun but would like to progress onto a proper rifle in the future. My rifle is kill effective over about 80-90 yards so it packs some punch, upgraded to a 3-9x50AO scope on it which I'm yet waiting to use.
Good call on the BASC and the insurance, that's definitely something I'll do. I've just had my .22 airgun serviced and it puts out a healthy 11.6ftlb; I was thinking of using it for rabbits but only up to about 25 yards - how do you hit a bunny ay 90?!

1. IIRC Prior criminal record/commit an offencel can result in the loss of even a clearly demonstrated right to have a shotgun ticket (Dunno how much things have changed but i was always under the impression that the FO has to find a reason not to give you a shotgun ticket, while the onus is on you to prove why you should have a FAC)

2. I never moved while i held a FAC but storage of a shotgun is easy, of a FAC is a bit trickier - Keep your guns in a club armoury?

3. Grew up with it, got my first .410 at age 8

4. Used to hunt - everything from vermin control to deer stalking and the odd cull. Also full bore pistol and rifle shooting never up to ISPC standards really tho

5. Errr no thanks, retracted or not :P
Pity, it's a mighty fine stew ;)

So you've also had a lot of experience; when approaching landowners do you find they want to see references from previous landowners etc. or is it just the regular paperwork? My uncle reckons that finding a farm / land where they're willing to let you shoot is like finding unicorn poo, either they already have a regular shooter on the land or they just don't want the risk of allowing an unknown to shoot over their land.

I have both a FAC and A SGC, at the moment I use my shotgun for clays and my rifle for bunnies. Its a right for people to have a shotgun (assuming your police checks come back OK and you can store them securely) where as anything on a FAC must be justified. I got my FAC at the end of last year which gives me permission to acquire a 22LR and a 17HMR, both with restrictions on the amount of ammo I can acquire and keep. The gun I wanted was a 17HMR however the FEO wasn't to keen, preferring me to get a 22LR instead but I stuck to my guns and managed to justify the HMR due the the land I shoot on requiring me to take longer range shots plus ricochets can be a big problem on the slower/heavier 22LR rounds.

Depending what you want to do insurance and legal cover is a must, I'm with BASC which is around £60 a year, my main motivation was fear of accusations being made by crappy neighbours, bearing in mind your guns will be taken immediately on an accusation being made. If it ever happens the legal cover will no doubt come in handy.

It may be worth you reading the pigeonwatch forums as they cover all aspects of UK shooting.

Anyway, shameless excuse for a picture
http://farm4.staticflickr.com/3799/8846780952_2bbcdc4245_b.jpg

I'm assuming you mean 80 to 90 feet, as a general rule with a standard sub 12 ft lb air rifle shouldn't be shooting at vermin beyond 35 to 50 yards depending on the shooters ability. Standard velocity 22LR round are generally only shot up to 130-150 yards and thay have over 12x the muzzle energy of an air gun. I'm not saying an airgun won't have the ability to kill at that range but 90 yards with 12 ft lb will not give consistant clean kills. At 90 yards your going to have over 2 of drop, even a 5mph wind will take you inches off and you will have under 2ft lb of energy left.
Nice tools you have there! Interesting that you use the HMR for the bunnies; when I got mine it was pretty far away (50-55 yards) and though I hit it square on with the full choke I didn't get a clean kill. I've read that although it's a more expensive caliber the HMR is becoming very popular for small vermin as you say due to the ricochet issue. So the land you shoot your HMR on is obviously approved for that caliber, what is the size / lie of it? I've read all the documentation I can find on gov.uk but can't find guidelines on rating a certain bit of land for a certain caliber and am curious how it all works...

Did you get your sgc before the fac? I've been thinking about (for the distant future!) either an fac airgun or HMR/22LR for rabbits but of course one needs to provide a good reason for owning it etc. If one already used a shotgun on land with a rating for HMR, say, would it then be much easier to convince your local FEO that you need a rifle?


Thanks for your replies everyone, it's all very interesting to hear about the experience of others! Got a lot of reading / shooting to do before I start any applications I think!

[grimey121uk]

The 17HMR calibre is superior to a a 22LR in every way ballisticaly, it packs a lot more punch (around 250 ft/lb), flatter trajectory, far more accurate and it expands/fragments explosively however it cant be moderated / silenced very well due to the sonic boom of the projectile (it can be heard for about a mile around on open land, that's with a suppressor) whereas a 22LR using sub sonic ammo is almost silent. With the HMR I can put small hen eggs out at 220 yards and achieve a decent hit rate:)

Oh, if you intend to eat your prey aim for the head with a HMR, bearing in mind a HMR will drop a fox easily they make a right mess of rabbit meat!

The land I shoot on is around 600 acres of mainly moorland which is cleared up to .308/7.62mm. in order to clear land you need to walk a licensing officer around the land detailing the boundary's, footpaths, safe backstops etc and depending on the layout they will clear the land suitably. If you have a few years experience under your belt you can ask them to open your ticket up to allow you deem land suitable by yourself without having to have it cleared.

Clay shooting can work out expensive 100 clays at my local place are £30 with 125 shells costing about £25, its certainly fun but that £55 can be blown in around an hour:)

This guys worth a watch - http://www.youtube.com/user/FrenchieBoy1951?feature=watch, basically when I got my FAC they put a condition on saying that I needed to go out with an "experienced vermin controller" before they would let me out alone so I went out with this guy a few times who was happy with my safety, he wrote a letter to the police who then removed the condition.

I had a go with his .243 which is an absolute monster with around 2000 ft/lb of energy :)
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fG-mxaZqrDI

He has an interesting video of zeroing a HMR in with another new shooter
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Zi7CzRdEsYQ

[Wideboy]

no bunnys at that range it wouldn't be effective. Yet to take a shot at a bunny but pigeons and crows are still clean kills at around 50-60 through the chest, neck or head if i fluke. Up to yet i've only been using a 4x40 scope so its really long range stuff hasn't yet been tested

I'm using superdomes at the minute which has made a huge difference to power (slightly more drop) and replaced a lot of internals with stainless parts plus the valve has been degutted of its filters and opened up more along with the exhaust block. I've done a fair bit to it but i don't want to risk taking it out before i get it chrono'd, i've had some close 20 yard shots in teh garden and its making a mess of half inch ply so fairly sure its long surpassed the limit

[Fordward]

currently not able to use my rifle as i think I've pushed it over the limit threshold

In which case your committing an offence by owning it, doesn't matter if you shoot it.

I'm assuming you mean 80 to 90 feet, as a general rule with a standard sub 12 ft lb air rifle shouldn't be shooting at vermin beyond 35 to 50 yards depending on the shooters ability

Agreed, though I'd have said 35-40 not 35-50. And that means ANY vermin, not just rabbits.

There is no rule of thumb, it depends on the conditions on the day, the kill zone of the quarry you are shooting at, the gun, the pellet, the scope, the time taken for the pellet to cover the distance being enough for the quarry to have moved, whether the shooters having a good day....

The only correct maximum range is the range at which you can be 100% sure of a clean kill. When shooting at animals and birds, if you are wondering whether or not your shot will be successful, then you shouldn't be taking that shot. If that means 25 yards is too far, then it's too far.

[Wideboy]

I know

Which is why its kept stripped down. Kind of stating the obvious there, despite what some may think some people actually look up and follow the laws of the sport they enjoy. I also carry around the relevant documents for any member of the public to view if they have a complaint to make about what we're doing. Which I'm glad I do as its already come into use for some rambler threatening to phone the police. For some reason I get nothing but agro from members of the public just for an air rifle despite being private land and following the regulations on the quarry for plinking. I could probably stand there firing off a 50 cal and get less attention.

Also get the land owners permission in writing. It's worth following all the laws to the T as you'd be surprised at how many people will get in a hissy fit about a rifle.

Edit. Yes meant feet.

[tinpants]

I have long been into shooting in many of its forms. First started when I was about 11 when my dad bought me a new Diana G80 .22 air rifle. I then progressed to the supervised use of a shotgun at the age of 14. I've had my own SGC for years but have recently gone back to an air rifle. Me and the boy go out rabbiting quite a lot. As Gav has said, it's really addictive. Not just the rabbiting but the whole process of getting out and zeroing the sights etc. I'd like to do my FAC in the not too distant future but its a bit pricey (for the rifle!!) so it may have to wait a bit.
My air rifle is a Webley Axsor, in .22, with a Twink moderator and a Harris bipod. The boy has a BSA Ultra Multi in .177, with a Weihrauch moderator and Harris bipod. Both guns have 3-9x50 IR sights.
The shotguns are a Lincoln O/U 12g, a Gunmark Sable sbs sidelock 12g and an AYA Number 3 boxlock non ejector in 12g.

Love shooting. Whether its clays, paper targets or bunnies etc.

[85jas]

...loadsa stuff...
Really interesting, thanks for all the information and the links; that .243 is a complete monster! Didn't realise that clays were so expensive, given that the Rottweiler cartridges we were using were only about 20p each I think I'd be better off just trying to get dinner more often :)

Thinking about all this & given what you say about experience etc. I reckon the best course of action for me would be to get the sgc and shoot for a couple of years on land which is also rated for a rifle caliber, then get some experience with a rifle via someone who knows their stuff, then apply for the closed FAC using something sensible like an HMR, then get upgraded to an open license in the future with some more experience under my belt.

It all seems like experience, experience, experience!

Love shooting. Whether its clays, paper targets or bunnies etc.
It is really addictive - really bought home to me that we are all, in fact, just animals who have evolved to hunt and the mode that your brain goes into in that situation... well it's a bit like riding a motorcycle! Calm, relaxed, and singularly focussed, with maybe a touch of heart flutter :)

Good rifle the Axsor, I used one some 8 years ago (first experience with a pcp) though I've heard the quality of Webleys has gone down since they moved manufacturing to Turkey? I always wanted an axsor, maybe one day...

wrt. shotguns I used a beretta o/u 12g boxlock on the weekend and there was some level of jibing and jesting about o/u vs side by side - I believe that an o/u was described as an "artless killer's penis extension" - not a school of though I'd subscribe to but apparently it's easier to hit stuff with them. I certainly did well for a newbie! What is your preference?

[grimey121uk]

Really interesting, thanks for all the information and the links; that .243 is a complete monster! Didn't realise that clays were so expensive, given that the Rottweiler cartridges we were using were only about 20p each I think I'd be better off just trying to get dinner more often :)

Thinking about all this & given what you say about experience etc. I reckon the best course of action for me would be to get the sgc and shoot for a couple of years on land which is also rated for a rifle caliber, then get some experience with a rifle via someone who knows their stuff, then apply for the closed FAC using something sensible like an HMR, then get upgraded to an open license in the future with some more experience under my belt.

It all seems like experience, experience, experience!


It is really addictive - really bought home to me that we are all, in fact, just animals who have evolved to hunt and the mode that your brain goes into in that situation... well it's a bit like riding a motorcycle! Calm, relaxed, and singularly focussed, with maybe a touch of heart flutter :)

Good rifle the Axsor, I used one some 8 years ago (first experience with a pcp) though I've heard the quality of Webleys has gone down since they moved manufacturing to Turkey? I always wanted an axsor, maybe one day...

wrt. shotguns I used a beretta o/u 12g boxlock on the weekend and there was some level of jibing and jesting about o/u vs side by side - I believe that an o/u was described as an "artless killer's penis extension" - not a school of though I'd subscribe to but apparently it's easier to hit stuff with them. I certainly did well for a newbie! What is your preference?

Don't worry about experience I had non when I applied for my FAC, you just need basic knowledge and the ability to justify the gun you want. My feo asked me why I wanted a 17HMR as well as a 22lr so I give him 3 solid reasons for needing it, longer range, less ricochets and flatter trajectory - On asking why I wanted a 22lr too if the HMR was superior, I gave him the reason that its ideal for night shooting due to the combination of a moderator and sub sonic ammo resulting in near silent shooting. I'm sure the outcome would of been totally different if I appeared clueless!

If you have the need for a FAC apply for it now before it gets even more difficult, its worth noting that shotgun experience counts towards nothing for rifle experience, some people say this is wrong but its just the way it is. Although a shotgun will give you experience of safe handling and security procedures it won't give you much experience on rifle ballistics such as backstops. Ultimately if you miss with a shotgun you are not going to kill some unlucky sod a mile away with a stray round nor will you have to worry about ricochets.

PS - you need to apply for moderators in addition to your guns, if you forget it will cost you 26quid for a variation!

SxS vs OU - the OU is superior in every way but SxS are seen as an old English tradition

[PyroUK]

Are any of you guys, other than wide boy, down south? Bournemouth Poole ish way? I have just gotten myself a .177 BSA lightning that I want to use for target shooting amd once a bit more proficient move on to hunting. I ideally want to get my fac but as it has been a while since firing live ammo wanted to get back in the swing of it.

Just wondering where you go to shoot for targets? Do you use a range or gardens etc? I am looking at joining Christchurch gun club but that could take a while.

If any if you are local enough amd would consider getting together for a shoot to help me hone my skills and also zero my scope that would be great!

[Specialone]

Not down you're way but if it helps I'm going clay pigeon shooting tomorrow :smt041:smt041:smt041

[Wideboy]

Why what's wrong with me?

I've never been to clubs but have been looking into it as the land access I have is getting more limited. I'd imagine some clubs to be sterile and clique so I'm just about to get my insurance membership deeley and go chat to some farmers. The two pieces of land I have access to are pretty limited, the first one the neighbour has just died and half of it is their land. The second place the farmers wife doesn't like it (although he appreciates it) so it's only when she's not about.

My friend had an invite to Portsmouth & Havant club (or something like that in that area) and said it was utter shehight. So would be worth going to look around before signing up and paying the fee's.

[PyroUK]

Nothing! Just that I knew you were down this way already!

Yeah I have been thinking about places near by and honestly can't really think if anywhere to start in terms of approaching farmers etc.

Think I will get joined up with the club and get a lot of practice in then I can look at insurance and farmers etc.

There was a fairly reasonably sized farm near my old place but no idea who owned the land!

[Wideboy]

It's difficult to find somewhere. Most farmers seem to be worried if members of the public are roaming when you're shooting. I've not been doing it long but I've found a lot of people won't tell you where they shoot or are dismissive, I can only think this is because they have a sweet spot and don't want people stepping on their toes. I can understand this as one of my mates is trigger happy/greedy and ruins a lot of shots by either stealing it or constantly zero'ing in and making a racket.

I would invite you up but it's not up to me

[PyroUK]

Makes sense, what are the rules on where you can shoot?

Does it have to be private land or could you pitch up in the middle of the new forest and start taking on the wabbits? Or how about wood land areas in less built up areas of town?

[Wideboy]

www.basc.org.uk/en/shooting/airgunning/air-rifles.cfm

Really useful site. If you follow that then in theory anyone that complains you can tell to sod owf

And no, it has to be on private land with the owners permission.

[PyroUK]

Awesome, cheers for that, will give it a good read when I get home!

[MattCollins]

I thought that I had to jump through some hoops, but it sounds like you all get it tougher.

The gun case has had a major thinning in the last couple of years and I currently have Sako 85 stainless varmint rifles in 223Rem and 308Win. The work horse is the 308Win which is mostly used for pest control... everything from cats to camels and even the odd headless rabbit for the pot.

[grimey121uk]

Sorry to drag up an old thread but I got a new toy today, my FAC variation for .223 and 8x57mm on top of 22lr and 17hmr landed on my door mat this morning

So I picked up a nice 1948 Mauser M48, its an incredibly powerful round which is good for 1000 yards and its pretty cheap to shoot. £250 for the rifle with 200x once fired brass cases, 100 stripper clips, 5 ammo boxes and a set of reloading dies -
http://farm4.staticflickr.com/3689/9326535489_67619eb55e_b.jpg

A quick size comparison with my other calibres (22LR, 17HMR, 8x57mm)
http://farm4.staticflickr.com/3767/9330261992_4725bf925a_b.jpg

[savage86]

Sorry to drag up an old thread but I got a new toy today, my FAC variation for .223 and 8x57mm on top of 22lr and 17hmr landed on my door mat this morning

So I picked up a nice 1948 Mauser M48, its an incredibly powerful round which is good for 1000 yards and its pretty cheap to shoot. £250 for the rifle with 200x once fired brass cases, 100 stripper clips, 5 ammo boxes and a set of reloading dies -
http://farm4.staticflickr.com/3689/9326535489_67619eb55e_b.jpg

A quick size comparison with my other calibres (22LR, 17HMR, 8x57mm)
http://farm4.staticflickr.com/3767/9330261992_4725bf925a_b.jpg

Lovely rifle really nice grain on the stock. Bargain at that price

[Wideboy]

that is seriously cool.

is there any additional safety certificate required for owning and firing an antique gun?

[PyroUK]

That is awesome but I think this is cooler:
http://youtu.be/mAgDKR0L2RA

[grimey121uk]

that is seriously cool.

is there any additional safety certificate required for owning and firing an antique gun?

Non at all its just classed as a section 1 firearm same as the others

[Specialone]

Sorry to drag up an old thread but I got a new toy today, my FAC variation for .223 and 8x57mm on top of 22lr and 17hmr landed on my door mat this morning

So I picked up a nice 1948 Mauser M48, its an incredibly powerful round which is good for 1000 yards and its pretty cheap to shoot. £250 for the rifle with 200x once fired brass cases, 100 stripper clips, 5 ammo boxes and a set of reloading dies -
http://farm4.staticflickr.com/3689/9326535489_67619eb55e_b.jpg

A quick size comparison with my other calibres (22LR, 17HMR, 8x57mm)
http://farm4.staticflickr.com/3767/9330261992_4725bf925a_b.jpg


Dude that's awesome, I want !!!
Just applied for my shotgun permit, 6 months backlog in applications in west mids police :(

[grimey121uk]

Dude that's awesome, I want !!!
Just applied for my shotgun permit, 6 months backlog in applications in west mids police :(

Its daft everyone pays the same fee's yet some parts of the country get **** poor service, my SGC was around 10 days from posting it to receiving my ticket back, same with my FAC - this is with GMP.

Well me and the mrs put 50 rounds through it today (25 each) and all I can say is WOW, its power is immense and it kicks like a mule - great fun though!