CBT not enough?

[kiggles]

I am sure this has been raised in other threads regarding what someone needs to do to use a motorbike on the road. But i went out with a guy this weekend who had just done a CBT. Despite him having a very very lucky off where he was not hurt and bike was fine. I found him a danger to himself and other road users.

looking back at it when i did my cbt I guess I cant really judge on what i was like when riding. But I felt unsafe following him, other cars clearly showed concern for him being on the road. (one lady in a car looked at me, then looked at him, then looked back at me while shaking her head with disapproval and concern as if saying why is he on the road).

But i thought to myself how he may improve his riding without spending money on a full test. The only thing i could think of was to ride more and get more confident with advice from the right people. But we were riding so I guess it was kind of helping him. Despite handing over a think bike leaflet, I couldn't help but worry about his riding and danger on the road. He going to use it to get to work so I guess he will get used to riding pretty quickly. He has a car licence but his riding really did not show he did.

Everytime I try give him advice I feel it is second hand advice from when i did my IAM test. But i know myself I could be putting it out wrong.


But since witnessing this kind of riding first hand I am starting to think maybe they should make CBT a bit tougher, and spell out the dangers more and types of injuries and crashes people have. Not to put them off but to bring them to reality.

[DJ123]

It doesn't matter about the test itself. It is about how you ride afterwards. It is the same as the car test-do A, B & C and ehre is your license. After that ride/drive how you want.
Seeking extra training will help him as will riding with experienced riders who can give him pointers. When giving pointers its important to put it across in a constructive way so they will take on board.

[Sir Trev]

I went out with a guy this weekend ...

It is possibly the amount of wine I've had this evening but I cannot get past this bit of the OP...

[Tomor]

It is possibly the amount of wine I've had this evening but I cannot get past this bit of the OP...

Deffo the amount of wine you have had Trev! Lay off otherwise you wont be coming out on the ride tomorrow!!

[rictus01]

for some of us we can remember when the test was much simpler, now whether you agree with all this cbt and what have you, it's had an effect on any pre-test tuition you may recieve, (if you took lessons) you used to learn how to ride and a bit about traffic but basic survival was the main thing; with the odd requirement thrown in, these days they focus on the test solely and nothing else.

Hence a new rider is wonderfully equipped to take a test, but perhaps not deal with day to day riding.
there is a definite gap from passing a test to being safe on the road, I've coached many new riders on basic survival skill they seam to be totally unaware of.

There are also those who rush into what is termed "advanced rider training" and believing that makes them a "complete" rider, whilst valuable lessons can be learnt; without suitable road experience they'll only learn "parrot fashion" and their ability to pass it on is limited, and of course some just aren't any good at giving advice or indeed reading who they're talking to.

the right advice/demonstration/ explination at the right time delivered in the right way can help dramatically, alas the same is true in reverse.....

My advice would be find a sensible mentor with experience you can trust and ask for advice from them, a word of caution though, as a new rider, better than you doesn't necessarily mean good.

Cheers Mark.

[Biker Biggles]

FWIW
First do a riding course and test.That way you spend several days out with an instructor and learn the "correct" way to ride on the road and pick up a lot of general riding tips.
Then get experience any way you can out on the road and look to do something like a Bikesafe day if it is available.
Then(most important of all)aquire some common sense.Sounds a bit like your mate is missing this vital ingredient.

[Spank86]

CBT is exactly that, basic. The bare minimum you need to be on the road, some people will be at that level naturally, most won't d the CBT helps. You could mandate more training but to be honest it's the attitude that's usually the problem. If people passed their CBts and spent some time improving on quiet roads (which DO exist even in London) it would be fine, it's the odd person that dashes through their CBT, barely passes and jumps out into rush hour traffic/hectic main roads that's gonna hit trouble and to be fair I suspect no amount of training cures that, my 6 months of driving lessons didn't cure my car based insanity, only time did.

[Pricey12]

I agree with what the others have said, in that the CBT is purely that - basic training.

The only way to improve is through experience. I passed my test in 2006, but had a break from riding between 2010 and this year. Even though the basics are still there I still feel like a newbie in a lot of ways. Hours and miles on the bike are what gets you to a reasonable level.

[NTECUK]

Can you get another bike buddy and get him to ride in between you.
The guy infront will help keep him safe.
If hes ok and takes advice ok your help him out.
You can't beat experance,

[madnlooney]

although ive been driving a car for nearly 10 years when i did my cbt 3 years ago i dont even remember being asked if i knew what different road signs meant

[Antrats73]

I passed my test about 2+ years ago and definitely still class myself as a newbie, my 19 year old son hasn't passed his driving test yet but really wants to do do a cbt for commuting to and from uni but I'm worried to death as I've seen and also had a few near misses in the car where youngsters on the nice shiny new scooters have no road sense what so ever, no shoulder checks nothing and I know my son would be exactly the same having no road experience, so I agree that maybe further training or extended cbt would be more than usefull!!

And just to add I'm not having a go at the younger riders as I'm pretty sure at that age I would have thought I was bulletproof and been exactly the same!!:D

[Antrats73]

Can you get another bike buddy and get him to ride in between you.
The guy infront will help keep him safe.
If hes ok and takes advice ok your help him out.
You can't beat experance,

Great advice this is how I learn from my mates!!

[yorkie_chris]

Sure he'll be reet once he's been on the bike more than 5 minutes.

I think CBT is plenty and will never call for more red tape, expense and eurobollox that they keep lumbering us with!

[Antrats73]

Sure he'll be reet once he's been on the bike more than 5 minutes.

I think CBT is plenty and will never call for more red tape, expense and eurobollox that they keep lumbering us with!

I know what you mean may be 5 months rather than 5 mins and I'd feel a bit better about my lad too haha, But it's out of my hands as its his choice now all I've said is i'll go out with him on a few rides to get his confidence up and he seems happy with that so we shall see.. Watch this space!!:?

[NTECUK]

Why not invite him on a ride out local, When sarah passed I got her to ride between me and Daz. Just to the local pub and MAG meets.
She was soon fine enough to go on longer runs.
She had passed her car test a good few years before.

[Spank86]

I passed my test about 2+ years ago and definitely still class myself as a newbie, my 19 year old son hasn't passed his driving test yet but really wants to do do a cbt for commuting to and from uni but I'm worried to death as I've seen and also had a few near misses in the car where youngsters on the nice shiny new scooters have no road sense what so ever, no shoulder checks nothing and I know my son would be exactly the same having no road experience, so I agree that maybe further training or extended cbt would be more than usefull!!

And just to add I'm not having a go at the younger riders as I'm pretty sure at that age I would have thought I was bulletproof and been exactly the same!!:D

go for a few rides with him yourself, clip him round the ear when he forgets his checks. Tell him he can dohis CBT but can only ride solo when you say he's ready and when he's convinced you hes safe.

It wont guarantee he'll do everything right, nothing will at that age but it'll help.

[NTECUK]

clip him round the ear when he forgets his checks. .
Try and make it a more plesant experance.
You have to be carful not to put him off.

[tonyk]

OK shoot me down in flames.

IMOHO I think cbt should be made ridicules hard, and getting a bike license a well earned privilege.
Seen to many youngsters who really should not be on the road, but saying that also some older people.
Same goes for car drivers……mind you some car drivers should never be allowed to drive.

[kiggles]

I kind of agree with tonyk. Too many people own cars/bikes who clearly have wrong mentality of using public roads. Although police are there to stop them, its only when they get caught they may get a slap on the wrist. the amount of people asked me at uni what they need to use a bike like mine, while staring at it imaging themselves on it looking cool. FACEPALM .

should be made harder, with the encouragement further training where ever possible.

[NTECUK]

Valied point.

[Braindead101]

My son's 16 1/2 & wants a bike when he's 17. With the new licence laws he'll be restricted to a 125 until he's 19 so no real need to pass his test. I'll be happy if he just has his CBT. Getting experience is vital, and I'll be going out with him until I think he's good enough.
I've already started talking to him when we're in the car about how to view the road from a biker's perspective & that hasn't put him off! (Nothing worse than being lectured by your dad!)

[Braindead101]

should be made harder, with the encouragement further training where ever possible.

I don't think it should be made harder, but htere should definitely be more training available. Most training offered to new riders is on how to pass your test, not on how to ride well.

[yorkie_chris]

I kind of agree with tonyk. Too many people own cars/bikes who clearly have wrong mentality of using public roads. Although police are there to stop them, its only when they get caught they may get a slap on the wrist. the amount of people asked me at uni what they need to use a bike like mine, while staring at it imaging themselves on it looking cool. FACEPALM .

should be made harder, with the encouragement further training where ever possible.

What the hell is wrong with that?

Half of people on bikes have that "image" mentality or at least start on bikes due to image and then find out it is awesome.

So no it shouldn't be made harder. The EU c*nts are killing our way of life with their stupid stupid licensing laws and you're calling for it to be harder? Have you taken complete leave of your senses?

[Pricey12]

I think it's very much chicken and egg really.

One one hand the CBT is so easy you can't really 'fail' it (unless you are ridiculously dangerous), so there are a lot of 16-17 year old kids on the road with little or no experience and no road sense. But, the only way to get these skills and experience is through being out on the road. As one of the posters above said, some kids (and adults) on bikes seem to think that they are invincible, which makes you an accident waiting to happen. That soon changes once you have your first off.

There has to be a large degree of personal responsibility when you are on a bike, particularly when you are still learning (which lets face it, is forever really). Unfortunately, this is missing from a lot of the 50cc riders out there who end up learning the hard (and painful) way.

[rictus01]

So no it shouldn't be made harder. The EU c*nts are killing our way of life with their stupid stupid licensing laws and you're calling for it to be harder? Have you taken complete leave of your senses?

I tend to agree, legislation and stricter criteria are good in princible, but most often they are mere political point scoring than any help to normal folks, once people have a licence they then tend to look at new riders not as "joining them", but more as "are they good enough", just remember you were crap once yourself (and still maybe to some with more experience).

[yorkie_chris]

Maybe worried they won't be the cool kid any more if any other people get bikes :smt082

[Stenno]

It is darn scary to see some CBT qualified people on the road, to me it's just like getting your cycling proficiency test done but with the added bonus of a wee motor onboard!

Personally I would tell the friend he's got room for improvement and point him towards the police roadcraft book or (for lighter reading) the IAM's How to be a better rider. That way it's not your instruction that he's relying on and it comes down to whether he's sensible enough and open to continued learning.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[timwilky]

From what I recall when my daughter did hers. It is training not a test. So long as they demonstrate competence at the maneuvers and road ride they get a ticket. Of course half a day cannot take you from never been on a bike to competent rider. It is designed to give you sufficient knowledge to stay upright whilst you learn to ride.

I think back to when I was a kid, you get a lid, 250, insurance and L plates all at the local dealers and ride out on your new pride and joy. Hopefully the dealer will point out the controls. A CBT is a big step forward from those days.

[rictus01]

whilst at it (not completely off topic), move all the sundays from mid April to the end of May, into one lump please, not so much new riders, but for this time the amount of "wobbly" riders returning to the road is just plain scary, and worse they do it in the bike lane big out in the middle of traffic.....

[yorkie_chris]

On a GSXR1000, and matching leathers obviously.

Please send an all-points bulletin out to these people and kindly point out that that dashed line down the middle of the cars is what I like to think of as "MINE" and if they want to use it would they kindly take an occasional glance in the mirror and see if they're holding anyone up, I'm quite happy to extend the same courtesy if anyone does want to be braver than me.
Oh and refraining from any incompetent, throttle happy overtakes in the urban areas does rather reduce the incidence of "you're all a bunch of idiots" the other 362 days of the year I'll probably be out on the road when you won't.

[kiggles]

What the hell is wrong with that?

Half of people on bikes have that "image" mentality or at least start on bikes due to image and then find out it is awesome.

So no it shouldn't be made harder. The EU c*nts are killing our way of life with their stupid stupid licensing laws and you're calling for it to be harder? Have you taken complete leave of your senses?

because its the same way giving someone a lambo to look good in and full know they are going to open the throttle first thing

[yorkie_chris]

The idiots will do that regardless. Punishing and making biking impossible for everyone else is not the way to avoid this behavior.

If people want to get on a bike and scare the crap out of themselves in the first minute we do not have a moral right to stop them let alone an obligation.


You've had your chance to jump on a bike and be a muppet... and now it's not right for anyone else to?

[ethariel]

I think back to when I was a kid, you get a lid, 250, insurance and L plates all at the local dealers and ride out on your new pride and joy. Hopefully the dealer will point out the controls. A CBT is a big step forward from those days.

Exactly me too (well a 125 at least)!

Had the good fortune to meet a great bunch of folks not long after gertting it, one of whom rode pillion and was happy to deliver 'kidney rabbit punch therapy' when i did some thing retarded and simple abuse when doing someting silly. I learned fast................

[Bibio]

in the old days the idiots died and the wise survived. seemed to work pretty well back then. CBT etc.etc makes no odds if your a knob your a knob end of. personally i would like to see the knobs crash and give up on biking so i'm all for doing away with the CBT and making it easier to get a licence.

now they are making the test supposedly harder the knobs come out with a full licence thinking they are a better rider for it which is complete borlox. you either have it in you to ride a bike properly or you don't and NO amount of training is going to make you a better rider than your natural ability. its the same as your IQ, your born with it and no amount of reading or studying is going to make you more intelligent than you are.

[timwilky]

in the old days the idiots died and the wise survived. seemed to work pretty well back then. CBT etc.etc makes no odds if your a knob your a knob end of. personally i would like to see the knobs crash and give up on biking so i'm all for doing away with the CBT and making it easier to get a licence.

now they are making the test supposedly harder the knobs come out with a full licence thinking they are a better rider for it which is complete borlox. you either have it in you to ride a bike properly or you don't and NO amount of training is going to make you a better rider than your natural ability. its the same as your IQ, your born with it and no amount of reading or studying is going to make you more intelligent than you are.

I think you are been rather unfair. I had a number of friends die, predominately due to their lack of experience at a time where you had to simply ride round the block a couple of times without being seen to fall off or do something silly.

This was a time when there were no riding schools or instructors. You hoped a mate who had passed his test would tell you what it involved and you practiced for that.

The test had to improve, far too many inexperienced riders featuring in the KSI figures. It will never be perfect.

I see young riders behave stupidly simply because they do not know the rules of the road and what should be common sense. I have seen old riders behave stupidly because the roads/traffic and bikes have changed.

I admit I am a weekend warrior. But, I ride within my comfort zone. That is why I still have my 10 year old 600, simply because I still know that it is capable of more than I am. Oh and I bought it to match my leathers.

[Dicky Ticker]

Going back to the beginning of this thread CBT never existed for me but I was still riding a Honda Super Dream Sport[250cc] on "L" plates capable of 100mph. I did not start with this but a FB Bantam and to me even then it was about making progress slowly and improving as you went along.I used to ride a 650 with a chair which was my uncles as a learner. I think that just because somebody passes CBT they must be completely delusional if they think that they are a fully fledge rider, even after 50 years I can still learn little tips and take heed from others better qualified than me. Unfortunately road sense is only something that normally comes through experience and even then doesn't always sink in with some people

[Braindead101]

I was still riding a Honda Super Dream Sport[250cc] on "L" plates capable of 100mph.

What did you do to get that speed? Mine would barely hit 80 on a good day, downhill & with a following wind!

[NTECUK]

Dicky a. 250 honda s dream never did 100 mph unles it fell of a cliff.which was the best look for it.
RD boys rule lol

[rictus01]

Dicky a. 250 honda s dream never did 100 mph unles it fell of a cliff.which was the best look for it.
X7 boys rule lol

corrected for you.....:cool:

[NTECUK]

Ha ha .
The LC soon put that to rights ;)

[rictus01]

as the X7 did to the coffin tank.

[Biker Biggles]

The Kwak triple was no slouch either-------
But the only one that could handle the poke was the Desmo 250.

[NTECUK]

The KH lead on to the KR 1s.
That was a handy tool,held together better than a Gamma.

[Dicky Ticker]

Honda Dream 250cc Super Sport also called the Hawk maybe didn't do a true 100mph but was very close to it,over 95mph. Don't get it mixed up with the trailing link tin can Dream which did about 75-80mph-----------------just to clarify the doubters

[timwilky]

Briefly using a flying machine of a CB250 K4 (after my c15, the honda was a flyer) I seemed to recall that down hill with a trailing wind and squinting in the right direction I could be convinced there was a ton on the clock. When it got replaced by the GT250, I didn't need to squint quite as much. On a kettle by the time the LC hit affordable.

Great fun ~100mph 250cc bikes on L plates. Poor kids have no fun on their castrated rev and rips.

[Dicky Ticker]

No GPS in them days to check true speed as against the speedo reading and I don't even recall seeing a "radar" trap in 63,64,just needed eyes in your 'rse

[NTECUK]

Honda had fvq susension.= Fade Very Quickly.
Cross ply tyres thin treads We had it all back then .

[Serdna]

What the hell are you guys on about? :p

[aesmith]

What the hell are you guys on about? :p
Ancient bikers discussing prehistoric bikes. Now my NSU Quickly N23 .....

[jambo]

I'm just going to wheel this one out again:
I approve- I've wanted a harder test since about 2 seconds after the nice man said I'd passed, just like everyone else :)

It's Compulsory Basic Training, not Complete. It's intended as a small interim measure while you're in training to take your licence. In the same way people can drive a car on L plates provided someone's sitting helpless in the passenger seat to squeek while they do.

Jambo

[SvNewbie]

I agree with Jambo. I actually think the biggest issue with the CBT is not actually the CBT itself, at the end of the day on a motorbike its not like you can have someone else hitting the brakes for you. You need to take some degree of personal responsibility and learn to ride at your own pace on roads which are suitable for learning.

The biggest issue, as far as I'm concerned, is that the L plates now carry no meaning on a motorbike, in a car most reasonable human beings will give you a little bit of time when they see the L plates, but on a bike people assume you know how to ride a bike and just haven't taken the test.

My solution to this would be to make the A1 test similar in terms of cost and difficult as sitting the CBT for the second time, more of a practical training course than the current test. Unfortunately, I suspect that makes far too much sense for the people in charge.

[aesmith]

The biggest issue, as far as I'm concerned, is that the L plates now carry no meaning on a motorbike, in a car most reasonable human beings will give you a little bit of time when they see the L plates, but on a bike people assume you know how to ride a bike and just haven't taken the test.
I don't think that was related to CBT, as long as I can remember people have rode bikes on L plates. Remember that not so long ago you had a permanent provisional licence as soon as you passed any test. So anyone with a car licence could ride a bike on L plates indefinitely. Add on the people riding mopeds on L plates with no intention of taking a test, and those who rode a bike until they could afford a car. It all adds up to a lot of L plate riders, and probably the reason the CBT came in originally.

Bear in mind also that most car drivers don't have a clue about bikes, so I'd be pretty certain they don't know that riders have taken the CBT (if they can even spell CBT).

[kiggles]

Bear in mind also that most car drivers don't have a clue about bikes, so I'd be pretty certain they don't know that riders have taken the CBT (if they can even spell CBT).

totally agree. so many people who drive ask bikers what they need to ride a bike.

how about reducing the length of time someone is allowed to use a CBT?

people have two years before it expires. So most people CBT and never bothered full test. I recon CBT time should be reduced to almost impose a full test to ride a bike on regular basis.

I did my test with in 3 months of CBT. (which felt like long time as i commuted to work on 125cc.) which i think is more then enough time on a bike assuming you ride it to get the proper training for lience.

[aesmith]

how about reducing the length of time someone is allowed to use a CBT?
That wouldn't address the problem that you've observed, which is the rider's competence when they've only just taken the CBT.

Personally I'd be against anything that makes it all harder. In my day there was no CBT, and you could ride a 250 on L plates with no restriction, then onto an unrestricted licence when/if you took your test.

Maybe the difference nowadays is that bikes are more powerful, people have more money to splash around so more likely to be able to afford a big bike at an early age, and also maybe fewer kids ride pedal cycles on the road. For me the progression was moped to 50cc bike, to 125cc to 250 (three different one) to 400, to 600. Small steps each time, and the moped wasn't a whole lot different to cycling on the road. In my circles there were very very few in their teens on large motorcycles, and "large" might mean a 500.

[SvNewbie]

I don't think that was related to CBT, as long as I can remember people have rode bikes on L plates.

Good point but I still think that is wrong. I don't think the answer is making anything harder. I just think someone who uses a motorbike practically every day for many years shouldn't be on an L plate.

Bear in mind also that most car drivers don't have a clue about bikes, so I'd be pretty certain they don't know that riders have taken the CBT (if they can even spell CBT).

The might not know that, but they will know that (nearly) every Scooter on the road has a pair of L plates on. They are more likely to associate them with people filtering through traffic like crazy than someone genuinely still trying to learn proper machine control and possibly even the rules of the road.