View Full Version : Was I in the wrong?
Hello org, had a close call today avoided by both myself and the driver.
The road is a 40, with two lanes and driveways kurbside.
I was in the right hand lane (Blue) doing 40 with no other cars on the road looking to take the next left, as I changed lane on the slight curve a car was pulling out of a driveway (red).
I cancelled my lane change as I saw him pull out and he stopped halfway into the left lane.
http://i39.tinypic.com/9ieblh.png
No accident, I slowed down in the right lane and then changed lanes and made my exit.
I recognised the driver and since messaged him lightheartedly mentioning the incident and he said " i held back u was lucky... tbh i thought u were stickin to thee outside lane.. ur the dangerous rider cuttin back into the inside lane lol... "
I don't think it was dangerous, what do you think, was it bad riding changing lanes on a curve, even a small one?
liam111
02-06-13, 08:17 PM
In my mind... it was his fault, he should of checked both ways twice before he pulled out of his driveway.. (learnt that the other day on my driving lesson;)
Fallout
02-06-13, 09:05 PM
If he saw you and thought you were staying in the outside lane, its his fault. You have right of way. He has to assume a car/bike on the road with right of way may change lanes. The fact you were indicating makes it even worse. He should've waited.
Tbf from his text response he sounds like a dimwit, and i think that shows in his road sense ;)
Braindead101
02-06-13, 09:11 PM
Just curious, but with no other cars around, why were you in the outside lane?
I had just turned off Fossets way, right off of the roundabout southbound turning west. Here is the map of the road and around it. (https://www.google.co.uk/maps/preview#!q=130+Eastern+Ave%2C+Southend-on-Sea+SS2+4AZ%2C+UK&data=!2m1!1e3!4m10!1m9!4m8!1m3!1d703!2d0.7228357!3 d51.5536623!3m2!1i1680!2i949!4f35&fid=7)
Well I'm glad it's not just me being stubborn, I couldn't be bothered to argue with him.
Perhaps I'll try and be in lane before or after the curve as one day I might not be so lucky, especially as I take this route home from work everyday, twice in fact as I come home for lunch.
Appreciate the comments.
liam111
02-06-13, 10:51 PM
I had just turned off Fossets way, right off of the roundabout southbound turning west. Here is the map of the road and around it. (https://www.google.co.uk/maps/preview#!q=130+Eastern+Ave%2C+Southend-on-Sea+SS2+4AZ%2C+UK&data=!2m1!1e3!4m10!1m9!4m8!1m3!1d703!2d0.7228357!3 d51.5536623!3m2!1i1680!2i949!4f35&fid=7)
Well I'm glad it's not just me being stubborn, I couldn't be bothered to argue with him.
Perhaps I'll try and be in lane before or after the curve as one day I might not be so lucky, especially as I take this route home from work everyday, twice in fact as I come home for lunch.
Appreciate the comments.
Best solution... Kick his wing mirror and pin the bloody throttle back!!!!;)
Best solution... Kick his wing mirror and pin the bloody throttle back!!!!;)
Haha, thing is, I know the guy and he's not that bad all things considered, could be worse, could be EDL like a few of his mates.
Supervox
02-06-13, 11:38 PM
I had just turned off Fossets way, right off of the roundabout southbound turning west. Here is the map of the road and around it. (https://www.google.co.uk/maps/preview#!q=130+Eastern+Ave%2C+Southend-on-Sea+SS2+4AZ%2C+UK&data=!2m1!1e3!4m10!1m9!4m8!1m3!1d703!2d0.7228357!3 d51.5536623!3m2!1i1680!2i949!4f35&fid=7)
Sorry, I don't buy that :-(
I know that stretch of road and the roundabout very well (I always use Waitrose to fill up with petrol) - coming off the roundabout (turning right) the only reason to stay in the offside lane is if there is another vehicle inside of you.
However, the bottom line is he WAS in the wrong for not looking properly, but IMO you didn't do yourself any favours by being in the offside lane - he may have thought you were there to let him out safely.
Anyway - no-one hurt or vehicles damaged :-) Just use the experience to learn from.
There was a car to my left on the roundabout so I did exit onto the offside lane, from there on I usually change anywhere from straight away to after the bend.
I see what you mean by he may have thought i was letting him out, though I even have full size indicators on that bike and I did use them!
Ps. a nice roundabout when it's empty isnt it:)
Supervox
03-06-13, 06:23 AM
There was a car to my left on the roundabout so I did exit onto the offside lane, from there on I usually change anywhere from straight away to after the bend.
Ok - your OP said no other cars around
I see what you mean by he may have thought i was letting him out, though I even have full size indicators on that bike and I did use them!
Ps. a nice roundabout when it's empty isnt it:)Yes :-)
Fordward
03-06-13, 06:27 AM
Its your responsibility to check your lane change is safe and it sounds as though you were in the wrong lane in the first place.
Its his responsibility to check the lane he pulls into is clear, and its perfectly acceptable to pull into a clear lane when other lanes are occupied with traffic (you do it almost every time you join a motorway or busy dual carriageway or you'd literally never get on it).
You had right of way, but he had seen you and wasn't infringing that at the point in time he pulled out.
With this one it boils down to who moved first.
At the point in time he made his decision the lane he was joining was clear and it sounds like he had seen you coming in the other lane. Then the situation changed, and it was you that changed it.
At the point you made your decision it sounds as if he'd already seen you in the other lane and decided it was clear to pull into the one he was joining, so he saw you and made his manoeuvre, before you made your manoeuvre, and the fact you did it suggest that it was in motion before you'd seen him emerging, and when you did eventually see him you cancelled the lane change.
You both have a responsibility to look properly and see each other and have given yourself room for error to avoid an accident if the situation changes, which you both did and so there was no accident.
Your OP doesn't actually say whether your indicator was on or not, it just says you cancelled your lane change. If it was on at the point in time he pulled out it tips blame a bit further onto the car driver as he should have realised the lane was about to be occupied. If you either didn't use it or put it on a fraction of a second before moving lanes it tips fault more towards you.
Only you can decide who was at fault as only you were there.
The lesson to learn is that if you'd been in the left hand lane, assuming he still saw you, he wouldn't have decided to pull out.
Also if there were driveways on the left, then be more aware that a hazard may emerge from one unexpectedly. In this case he had seen you so he must have stopped and looked? A car sitting stationary at the end of a driveway on your left, waiting to pull out - that should have been seen by you and be ringing big alarm bells in your head.
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timwilky
03-06-13, 07:02 AM
Actually being in the right hand lane on that left hand bend would maximise your visibility and in turn also maximise your visual exposure to any driver intending to pull out. So not a wrong call so long as you had intended to get yourself back into the left lane as you cleared the bend.
As a driver, there are times you need to edge out even if not comfortable just to improve your view of the road. Is this such a situation? I would estimate he only has about 100 yard of visibility to his right when on the kerb side. The slightest distraction and he would not see you. So make sure your can is as loud as possible just to give drivers like that an extra sensory aid.
My opinion. You did nothing wrong, except by winding him up by pointing out his error.
yorkie_chris
03-06-13, 08:48 AM
Can see it from both sides tbh. Why not change lanes after passing him?
Fordward
03-06-13, 01:05 PM
Actually being in the right hand lane on that left hand bend would maximise your visibility and in turn also maximise your visual exposure to any driver intending to pull out. So not a wrong call so long as you had intended to get yourself back into the left lane as you cleared the bend.
As a driver, there are times you need to edge out even if not comfortable just to improve your view of the road. Is this such a situation? I would estimate he only has about 100 yard of visibility to his right when on the kerb side. The slightest distraction and he would not see you. So make sure your can is as loud as possible just to give drivers like that an extra sensory aid.
My opinion. You did nothing wrong, except by winding him up by pointing out his error.
Positioning for visibility shouldn't be at the expense of A) Your safety B) Grip or C) The rules of the road.
The rules of the road say to stay to the left unless overtaking.
You shouldn't therefore be in lane 2 of a dual carriageway on a left hand bend, solely to get better visibility on that bend.
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timwilky
03-06-13, 01:43 PM
a) Safety :- This is a dual carriage way. there is no oncoming traffic.
b) grip :- Being on the edge of the LH lane is more likely to impact upon your grip as the road lining is likely to be slippier etc.
c) rules of the road :- Rules are made to be broken. Besides which advanced driving/riding courses will tell you to get over in order to see round left hand bends. The further round you can see gives you more time to plan for anything in your way such as vehicles pulling out etc.
yorkie_chris
03-06-13, 01:57 PM
I would say that being in the outside lane, and moving into left lane before a vehicle waiting to join the left lane falls into the "asking for trouble" category whoever had right of way.
Vehicle waiting to pull out may have interpreted you being over there as you moving over to let him out... in which case "cheers mate... he's obviously seen me and knows I'm joining"
As long as You read the situation ,Actted acordingly You did the right thing. :)
If you drive a Cage your apprecheate its difficuly to see indicators in sunny conditions.
Bike ones even worse!
His also got screen pilliars in his way too.
It's no good being in the right if your drop your bike.
His never going to addmit his in the wrong, so just smile to your self and be happy your better at reading the road than him
Fordward
03-06-13, 03:18 PM
a) Safety :- This is a dual carriage way. there is no oncoming traffic.
b) grip :- Being on the edge of the LH lane is more likely to impact upon your grip as the road lining is likely to be slippier etc.
c) rules of the road :- Rules are made to be broken. Besides which advanced driving/riding courses will tell you to get over in order to see round left hand bends. The further round you can see gives you more time to plan for anything in your way such as vehicles pulling out etc.
I didn't say there was a safety or grip issue, I just gave you the general rules to apply to road positioning.
I also didn't say you shouldn't break rules, so long as you understand that your breaking them, and have made a concious choice to do so.
As for advanced training, you'd be taught to position within your lane. If break the rules of the road on an advanced test, you will fail.
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Red Herring
03-06-13, 05:26 PM
There is nothing wrong with being in an offside lane if the information and circumstances make it to your advantage and it is safe to do so (it obviously wouldn't be to advantage if it was less safe).
In the circumstances described by the Op it is perfectly acceptable to be in the outside of the two lanes providing there was no other traffic coming up behind him (regardless of if they would have to be speeding or not). All of the obvious hazards are to the nearside, including the emerging car, and providing there is nothing entering the central reservation cut through ahead of you by being in the outside lane you are not only safer, but you are also being more considerate to the other driver.
When you position in the road you do not only have to consider the information that you take in, but also the information you give out. It would not be unreasonable for a driver waiting to pull out to assume that a vehicle in the outside lane would be continuing straight ahead and you should be aware of this, and plan accordingly. Remember your position and speed will say far more about your intentions than an indicator bulb.
I wouldn't say anybody was at fault of anything in the situation you describe. You both reacted to the other in plenty of time to avert any danger and all you should be doing is using the experience to help you plan next time. Should you see a vehicle emerging on your nearside again under those circumstances you could consider staying out in the offside lane a bit longer to pass, or giving a nice early indicator, perhaps backed up by a hand signal and a reduction in speed, if you really need to come in for a junction beforehand.
Most collisions are the result of someone making a "mistake", but it's quite rare for that mistake to be so unexpected it could not have been reasonably anticipated by the other party involved.
I haven't had advanced training yet, but I also think I would be in the fast lane there due to all the hazards on your left and if i had rounded the bend in the left lane and seen a car waiting I would move into the fast lane. In your case I would have moved back to the fast lane, moved past the situation and probably never thought about it again. I would like to add nothing annoys me more than fast lane/middle lane hoggers and I will always let someone pass that wants to go even faster than me. And I wouldn't ride in it when the roads empty unless I had reason to like all the entrances from the left here.
Fast lane?
The Eagles. Sang about it,
"They pretendded not to notice they were caught up.in the race."
Biker Biggles
03-06-13, 07:41 PM
Fast lane------Only for Desperados trying to escape from the Hotel California.
Fordward
03-06-13, 10:00 PM
if the information and circumstances make it to your advantage
Agreed with everything you post as a general rule (if you understand why you are ignoring the highway code in that scenario), but in this case the bend isn't sharp enough to make it worth moving out there IMO. Line of sight from the bend to the driveway the car pulled out of is about 60 metres, you can see plenty far enough ahead from lane 1, and you'd have to be considerably above the speed limit (or have particularly poor forward obs) for stopping in time to become a problem. If you are dealing with a specific hazard, then maybe it'd be worth it, or just slow down until you've passed it.
Nothing in the OP suggests there was any advanced positioning technique in use, nor were improved forwards obs being taken advantage of to see the hazard any earlier, so it a bit of a moot point really.
SvNewbie
03-06-13, 10:23 PM
I don't think it was dangerous, what do you think, was it bad riding changing lanes on a curve, even a small one?
Clearly you are a complete moron who deserves to have his licence torn to shreds and flushed down the toilet. :smt119
Alternatively, in the process of checking mirrors, blind spot and moving lanes a hazard developed in front of you. You reacted in good time and no one was hurt.
The fact that you are sweating over whether you done something wrong damn near automatically makes you a better driver than 99% of the driving population. Most would never think twice about such an incident, and as such would never have the opportunity to learn from it.
Keep doing what you're doing and stay safe IMHO :D
kiggles
04-06-13, 08:07 AM
he was in the wrong. I passed driving test in September and I specifically asking if i can pull out onto a new road when there is two lanes and there is one vehicle in the outside lane. The answer was assume they are in both as they have right of way and can change lanes.
nothing wrong with being in outside lane (although people disagree) if there no cars around you. puts you further away from hazards near the curb like idiot who pull out. If you know your going to turn. indicate well so people can see intentions and drop speed accordingly.
NOT YOUR FAULT. you did well, no accident, to go home safe. driver needs to pass his test again in my books, but we all know that's not going to happen
yorkie_chris
04-06-13, 08:15 AM
driver needs to pass his test again in my books, but we all know that's not going to happen
How many thousand miles a month do you do in a car mate?
Fordward
04-06-13, 08:38 AM
he was in the wrong. I passed driving test in September and I specifically asking if i can pull out onto a new road when there is two lanes and there is one vehicle in the outside lane. The answer was assume they are in both as they have right of way and can change lanes
Lol, because that was the safest answer to give you as a new driver to prevent YOU failing to anticipate a lane change and pull out on someone, not because its wrong to do it where the lane is clear.
Whether from a slip road, a give way, a stop sign or a driveway, joining a multi lane road you do have to give way to traffic already on the road, whatever lane they may be in. That means dont cause any of them to change speed or direction as a result of you joining the road. But do you wait for all three lanes to be clear before joining a motorway? Or both lanes of a dual carriageway in rush hour? If so, good luck, and tell someone where you are waiting so they can bring you food, drink and a blanket!! Lol
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To clear a few things up..
I was indicating, as I had passed a very slow car on the outside lane of the roundabout who was exiting onto the same road in the left lane.
I got up to speed pretty quickly as I do when the road is clear, it's a perk of riding a bike. :D
The car I think was a cream driving school mini, and wasn't far off the roundabout I assume as I couldn't see it when I did a left hand shoulder check.
I didn't see the car waiting at all, I assume it emerged from between two garden walls of sorts.
Good discussion here, I thought best to ask as no doubt he'll be telling our mutual friends that I'm an idiot and not long for this world ect.
Fordward
04-06-13, 03:02 PM
I was indicating
In which case there was right of way violation on his part, but as already said indicator bulbs can be hard to see.
kiggles
05-06-13, 08:13 AM
How many thousand miles a month do you do in a car mate?
maybe 500 miles a month lol
most my miles go onto the bike.
yorkie_chris
05-06-13, 09:26 AM
What I'm struggling with is why you are quick to condemn him as needing to do his test again when from his point of view someone has cut into the lane he was about to join for no particular reason. Maybe he thought the bike had even moved over to let him out.
And then on seeing the bike had changed intention and moved into the other lane, he made the correct decision to abort pulling out... and no harm done...
Some people like the Fraking idiot this morning even revers out on to a main road !!
Not read this obviously https://www.gov.uk/using-the-road-159-to-203/reversing-200-to-203
BoltonSte
08-06-13, 06:23 AM
I find MOST do, probably through a mixture of stupidity, lack of understanding and lazyness ( don't want to wait when they get home or go out when the road is quiet later to do it properly)
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