Steering Head Bearings Problem?

[squirrel_hunter]

Got a slight issue with the steering head bearings on my TZR250 2MA Project.

I've installed the races into the frame, the upper sits a bit high and the races don't go over recess like the old ones (or like the ones I replaced on my SV) so removing them looks like it might be interesting, though I'm not worried about the height.

Lower:

http://i153.photobucket.com/albums/s216/squirrel_hunters_photos/Project%20Garage%20Find/IMG-20130601-01520_zpsb5932a8b.jpg

Upper:

http://i153.photobucket.com/albums/s216/squirrel_hunters_photos/Project%20Garage%20Find/IMG-20130601-01525_zps5833f1f1.jpg

I had a local garage press the oil seal, bearing dust seal, and then bearing onto the lower yoke:

http://i153.photobucket.com/albums/s216/squirrel_hunters_photos/Project%20Garage%20Find/IMG-20130601-01533_zpse7161ecd.jpg

But after assembling the yoke its very stiff to move. It would appear that the dust seal is grabbing the bearing once under a bit of load.

So quick chat to the bike shop and we removed the oil seal. Trouble is its still stiff and when losing the bearing off I found a bit of grey powder on the top which implies that it is rubbing on the frame recess?

The only thing I haven't done yet is fully grease it up as I don't want to end up masking any issues with it. So should I apply lots of grease to it and see what happens or can anyone make any other suggestions as I'm a little stuck on this one?

[Bibio]

did you buy an OEM dust seal or buy taper rollers with integrated dust seal or taper rollers with loose dust seal?

[squirrel_hunter]

All pattern parts. All from Yambits. Seal (http://yambits.co.uk/tzr250-steering-bearing-seal-p-22485.html), Bearing Kit (http://yambits.co.uk/tzr250-taper-head-steering-bearing-kit-p-8981.html).

The tapered roller bearings came with separate dust seals. Both dust seals carried the same part numbers on their packets so I expect them to be the same size.

[wideguy]

Are the bearings the same diameter and thickness?
It's hard to tell from the picture, but, could you have the upper and lower bearings reversed? If they are the same, that couldn't be a problem.

[Bibio]

just from the picture the seal look a bit big. are you sure its the right way round?

[squirrel_hunter]

The upper and lower bearings are different sizes. I'm sure I have them round the right way as the upper bearing will not fit down far enough over the stem to seat. The outer races are also correct. I only opened one of the bearing packets and fitted that fully before opening the upper.

The bearing dust seals are round the correct way from what I can tell as the edge of the seal cups the bearing. If it didn't the seal would flatten its lip when installed which wouldn't be right.

I've done a little more checking and the top of the lower bearing is touching the frame recess over the top of the outer race when installed. I've taken a couple of photos and the one without the flash shows up the best. You should hopefully be able to see a polished edge off of the lower race on the frame.

http://i153.photobucket.com/albums/s216/squirrel_hunters_photos/Project%20Garage%20Find/IMG-20130605-01571_zpsb8523084.jpg

So it looks like I have two issues, one the dust seal is gripping the bearing. And two the bearing is rubbing on the frame. Where do I go from here?

[Bibio]

if the bearings are touching then you will have to remove some of the material in the headstock, which means taking the races out again. did the parts come in official Yamaha packaging?

[squirrel_hunter]

No the parts are pattern replacements.

Not sure about modifying the frame. Would hope that there is something less drastic that could be done.

Alternatively I suppose I could refit new OEM bearings which as loose balls in a race?

[wideguy]

You could shim under the lower outer race, but it would take a precision washer of the correct i.d. and o.d.
I wouldn't hesitate to take a rotary file to the offending extra material...

I was still thinking about the differences in the upper and lower bearings. Obviously the i.d. of the upper is smaller, but, could the outer races be reversed? Will either roller assy. fit in either outer race? Will either outer race fit in either bore?
I'm guessing the lower bearing assy. is more robust than the upper- does that apply to the outer races?

[Bibio]

take a die grinder to it. those races are in for good so as long as your careful you should be able to save the day. if not then remember to put checks in when your grinding the excess so you can get the next set out if need be.

once its all fitting then grease grease grease. there is a proper way to pack taper bearings with grease.

[squirrel_hunter]

Its not going to be possible to shim it by any worthwhile amount as there isn't a lot of recess that the race actually grips to as the original race was quite thin.

As for the swapping of the upper and lower outer races, I don't think this happened as I installed the lower bearing completely before I opened the upper race's packet.

I really don't want to start hacking into the frame so might have to get creative to get the races out if needed. Thinking welding a tab on and hammering it out. But will have to leave this to a professional.

I've also been in contact with Yambits. I'm the first to have this problem so they are quite interested to see what's gone on, so emailed them a mass of pictures. I not the first to have a problem installing tapered head bearings though but usually its because the lower race hasn't been removed. It sounds like that is a common problem chatting to them. But I'm sure I have removed that as I have 5 races in front of me from the TZR. One set of upper races, one set of lower races, and an additional lower race I took off of the original lower yoke to practice how to do it before removing the race on the lower yoke I am now using.

[wideguy]

I saw where you had opened and installed one bearing at a time, but maybe they were packaged incorrectly? Or maybe it's just a casting variation in your steering head, which didn't matter with ball bearings, but does with rollers.
I have been cursed several times with the "We've never seen that before" syndrome. I hate it for you.

[jambo]

I really don't want to start hacking into the frame so might have to get creative to get the races out if needed. Thinking welding a tab on and hammering it out. But will have to leave this to a professional.

I've also been in contact with Yambits.

They've supplied the parts, you've had an installation issue, I'd say wait for them to come back with an answer. Occasionally you end up with issues where parts on older bikes are not exactly as they should be. Maybe you'd have suffered the same issue with OE parts, maybe you wouldn't.

Hopefully there will be a simple fix. I don't buy the issue being the taper/ball bearing change as the critical dimensions for the bearing are not affected by it's internal mechanism. You buy bearings by ID, OD, and depth, It could rotate on a sheet of graphine in there and should still fit provided those dimensions are correct.

Don't bodge anything unless you've exhausted the elegant options.

Best of luck.

Jambo

[wideguy]

One reason I thought the outer races might be in reversed from correct locations is the original pictures. The race installed in the top of the steering head appears to protrude above the bore in the steering head, which isn't exactly good practice. That made me suspect that the race installed in the top was perhaps thicker/wider than the one installed in the bottom, and that they should be reversed.
I can't tell for certain, because I can't measure their width and thickness.
I do know I've never seen a bearing installation where the outer race wasn't completely contained within it's bore.

[squirrel_hunter]

I do know I've never seen a bearing installation where the outer race wasn't completely contained within it's bore.

http://i153.photobucket.com/albums/s216/squirrel_hunters_photos/SV650%20Headbearings/IMG-20110728-00325.jpg

That's my SV650, more detail here (http://forums.sv650.org/showpost.php?p=2582033&postcount=32). That's why I'm not as bothered with the top race sitting high on the TZR but it is a little bit more than the SV is.

Or maybe it's just a casting variation in your steering head, which didn't matter with ball bearings, but does with rollers.

That's what I'm thinking.

Spoken to Yambits, they have had a look at all the photos and yep there is something not right but they've never seen this before. Apparently they have sold some 187 of these kits worldwide, I'm the first with this problem. From their perspective it looks like the bearing recess is much larger then they have seen before, more of a shelf then a lip.

So this kit isn't going to be usable on my bike and I'm not modifying the frame. Yambits have given me a refund for the bearings and I don't need to send them back, so I'm happy with that and can't fault their service. Very happy with everything they have supplied me and will continue to use them.

However I still need to a) get these bearing out, and b) need to get some replacement bearings that will work.

So to get them out Yambits suggested welding and tapping which is what I was thinking, will look at getting that done as soon as I can. But with the powdercoating on the frame some damp cloth will be needed to help prevent heat transfer and damage to the finish.

As for replacements I'm thinking OEM. But a quick check on line shows that there is a bit of a difference in price with one of the races against the others. Will check with my local bike shop and see what they suggest...

[jambo]

Well it sounds like yambits have been entirely fair about it. I'd get a vernier gauge once you've got the old bearings out and measure the recesses. You should then check if the bearings that are right for that year will actually fit.

Jambo
Sent from my thingie

[yorkie_chris]

Tit.

When putting the "wrong" bearings in (i.e taper rollers) you need to file out a bit of the shoulder to allow you to knock them out again. Otherwise a simple bearing change needs a welder.

[wideguy]

Thanks for showing me another bearing race not fully in it's bore. I still think it's not good engineering.

Most of the time I was an aircraft mechanic, I worked structures, which means I spent a lot of time removing corrosion, scratches and gouges. We did this by filing, grinding and use of various abrasives. The amount of material we were allowed to remove, without having to do anything else besides restore protective finishes, was, in general, 15% of the original.
I'd take a rotary file to the extended lip (without removing the race) and it wouldn't worry me one bit.

[squirrel_hunter]

Thanks for showing me another bearing race not fully in it's bore. I still think it's not good engineering.

As these are the accepted replacement tapered roller bearings for the SV650 (referring to the image and installation above) that is seated fully into its bore in the headstock, what would you suggest?

[r0ddy]

I don't think I've ever seen a race protruding like that before.

As YC said, you're best off grinding away a bit and knocking it out.

[yorkie_chris]

As these are the accepted replacement tapered roller bearings for the SV650 (referring to the image and installation above) that is seated fully into its bore in the headstock, what would you suggest?

Normally when I've got them they sit down fully in the bore. Never seen one stick up.

It wouldn't really worry me given the relative strengths of the materials. However it will mean being careful about the integrity of the various seals (since you've now got a gap) and the lengths of the spindle w.r.t where the threads are and such.

Of course it could be possible that the bearing is actually the same length when assembled too.

[Red Herring]

There is so much material on the seat for the lower bearing that I to would have no hesitation using a dremel or similar to take a little away. Ideally I would do it with the inner race off the stem so that I could drop it in easily and see how I was doing, but I guess you might be able to see down from above past the stem?

Why are you so concerned about modifying the frame slightly?

[squirrel_hunter]

Normally when I've got them they sit down fully in the bore. Never seen one stick up.

If we are talking about the top race of the SV here then that is as far down as it can go. I can't remember the supplier of these now but lets take it as they are the correct bearing. How then can the bearing sit further down the bore?

Why are you so concerned about modifying the frame slightly?

A little bit here, a little bit there, the next thing I know I'd do a Shervin (http://www.zx-10r.net/forum/showthread.php?t=89168).

[yorkie_chris]

If we are talking about the top race of the SV here then that is as far down as it can go. I can't remember the supplier of these now but lets take it as they are the correct bearing. How then can the bearing sit further down the bore?

Obviously if it's against the shoulder it can't go further. I'd suspect it was the wrong bearing though.

I do tend to wave a vernier over such things before pressing them in.

[Red Herring]

A little bit here, a little bit there, the next thing I know I'd do a Shervin (http://www.zx-10r.net/forum/showthread.php?t=89168).

I think there is a subtle difference between shaving a mm or two off a shoulder and cutting a 6" square hole in a critical part of your frame. If you can't tell that perhaps you have no place working on a bike in the first place.

We are only offering advice, it's your call mate.

[squirrel_hunter]

I fear the internet's lack of eye brows has struck again.

The reason why I don't want to alter the frame is that I don't think I should need to. If the tapered bearings are direct replacements then I shouldn't need to alter anything. The fact I then need to points to either that the bearings are wrong or there is something different in my frame. To that end on the basis of Yambits selling quite a few of these with no issue I wonder if Yamahas Quality Control were on a half day when my frame originally rolled through the factory and this defect if we were to call it that has only shown up now I want to change the type of bearing.

I'm always willing to listen to reasoned advice when given, and this has been an interesting discussion which I have and am learning from.

Coming back to the problem at hand that being the bearings for my 2MA I have decided to revert to OEM and have a set on order. There isn't too much of a price difference between them and the tapered replacements, I will only need to live on cold baked beans for a week or three.

[yorkie_chris]

If the tapered bearings are direct replacements then I shouldn't need to alter anything. The fact I then need to points to either that the bearings are wrong or there is something different in my frame. To that end on the basis of Yambits selling quite a few of these with no issue I wonder if Yamahas Quality Control were on a half day when my frame originally rolled through the factory and this defect if we were to call it that has only shown up now I want to change the type of bearing.

It is completely normal to need to do this with taper rollers on loads of bikes.

End of the day you are modifying the bike by using taper rollers rather than angular contact ball bearings.