View Full Version : Virgin Media "upto 60mb" - apparently you HAVE to use their superhub router?
Paul the 6th
10-07-13, 04:27 PM
"Or the broadband will just disconnect and it causes alsorts of errors on the system mate" said the virgin media guy on the phone.
I asked him why it had to be this specific router to make the broadband work and he seemed very vague in terms of "it just does" and "I've put an order through without a superhub before and the customer tried using their existing router and it came up as an error on the system"...
I'm not an expert, but I'm also not a moron (not most of the time) - I understand that an existing router might not be able to give the fastest data transfer rates so may struggle to match the speed of the data coming down the line, but the idea that no other wireless router will work with the 60mb broadband seems ridiculous.
Also just so happens that it's £20 for delivery and activation, apparently there's a number to ring and they activate it - I asked how and the guy vaguely said "well they have to activate it at this end to get it all working".
Does anyone work for virgin on here? Am I right to think they're trying their luck?
to do with how the packets are fed. cable lines are struggling under the pressure as fibre is not all that it was meant to be so i think virgin is using some sort of jiggery pokery to send the packets down the line and as so it's how the router interprets the packets.
i could be wrong though as its a loooong time since i done my cisco.
Spank86
10-07-13, 04:40 PM
I believe the first box on the line, the "modem" has to be virgins own to talk to their Dslam (well, not necessarily but I'm not sure you can get one from anywhere else) but after that you can put more or less any router on it to do wireless and switching provided you know how to set it up.
DISCLAIMER: I don't work for virgin.
Paul the 6th
10-07-13, 04:45 PM
Cool cheers guys, loads of posts from people on money saving expert forum saying virgin sent them a superhub at no extra cost when they were upgraded to 60mb. Gonna call them back and give them a nudge asking about that
Murley.
10-07-13, 05:11 PM
The superhub is far from super. The wireless range is pathetic and because of that, the Internet speeds quickly drop off with a matter of a few feet. You can put it in modem mode then connect a router to it to get a good wireless signal.
Paul the 6th
10-07-13, 05:29 PM
hmmm might just phone them back and arrange to drop tv, phone and stick with 20mb broadband - got all excited at the prospect of 60mb but for the faff and the reports of the super hub actually being a mediocre hub, it'll be less hassle to stick with what I've got now. And cheaper :)
Spank86
10-07-13, 05:38 PM
First thing, what are you going to be doing with it?
60mb is enough to stream 2 HD movies simultaneously whilst gaming, watching porn and still having 20mb spare (Not that I've tried but It's on my bucket list).
Ask them if the superhub supports N and AC wireless standards, If as I suspect it's only N (if even that) it may not be worth upgrading just yet when there could be a better model round the corner.
Paul the 6th
10-07-13, 05:43 PM
current usage is mainly BitTorrent, streaming music via 8tracks/spotify.. uploading my own videos to vimeo and youtube... Oh and probably about 3 times a year I'll go on xbox live, although that is about to change when grand theft auto 5 comes out in september.
20mb is plenty enough tbh..
Spank86
10-07-13, 05:52 PM
I bet your best ever bittorent DL rate is less than 10meg. streaming music is less than 128kbps, and you could Xbox live on Dial up.
I honestly don't think you need an increase at them moment unless you're going to invite Fallout to be your lifepartner and move in with you. In which case I'd recommend a dedicated gigabit fibre link.
tigersaw
10-07-13, 06:13 PM
I went from 6 meg to 37 meg with BT
Nothing ever got any faster, save the speed tests
Paul the 6th
10-07-13, 06:29 PM
just phoned them back, free super hub and gone from 20mb to 30mb. The guy did try to romance me into thinking that 60mb would be the best of both worlds (like some sort of digital gsx-r 750). Fastest bit torrent is about 2.5mb a sec at its hottest. Which is quick enough :)
Spank86
10-07-13, 06:35 PM
I went from 6 meg to 37 meg with BT
Nothing ever got any faster, save the speed tests
Limited by the other end.
course HD TV would have been a struggle at 6meg
I have a super hub and its ****e, as said before wireless is pants. I switched it to modem mode and used an old Belkin router I had but for some reason my housemate couldn't connect to it so had to switch back to the super hub.
Also I hope all that was free? As they are rolling out speed upgrades across the board, 20meg will cease to exist as 30 will be the lowest and you would have gotten the bump to that anyway.
In terms of your bit torrent, have you played with the settings? And also multiply the speed shown by 10 to get your proper speed to compare to your broadband. So if it say 1.8mbs on torrent it should be 18 in broadband speed speak.
Spank86
10-07-13, 07:26 PM
times 8 not 10.
Bytes to bits.
you can use both routers wireless BTW if you connect them with ethernet cables.
Ah it was close enough!
The super hub didn't like having the router running while connected to another router hence modem mode.
Paul the 6th
10-07-13, 07:49 PM
awesome, might stick it on modem mode and see if the existing netgear manages ok, it's been fine the whole time I've had it, and everything works, windows laptop, iMac, iPad, phones etc..
https://lh6.googleusercontent.com/-gpq8dFpqM7Y/Ud26kmdGAII/AAAAAAAAGZI/sMCoOgGCYUE/s119/Screen%2520Shot%25202013-07-10%2520at%252020.47.21.png
https://lh4.googleusercontent.com/-S6meMRJFgpM/Ud26kfax4VI/AAAAAAAAGZE/NWupzuu23EA/s129/Screen%2520Shot%25202013-07-10%2520at%252020.48.05.png
17.6 down speed there! Very nice!
And yeah if you don't have multiple people sharing the net it should be ok but we had about 10 things at a time connecting and it was only his POS Linux laptop, pos Nokia and pos htc that wouldn't connect.
It's BS... I'm getting 90 Mbit right now on the modem version before the SuperHub came along, and I'd probably get the full 120 if I could be bothered to connect with wires.
Paul the 6th
10-07-13, 08:06 PM
that was my thinking Oli, unless like spank speculated that the super hub was a bespoke bit of kit doing some fancy switching and processing (the technical shiz is beyond me at this point btw) must just be a money spinner...
Spank86
10-07-13, 08:10 PM
Ah it was close enough!
The super hub didn't like having the router running while connected to another router hence modem mode.
have to change the router settings and at the very least set up fixed IP between them.
17.6 down speed there! Very nice!
And yeah if you don't have multiple people sharing the net it should be ok but we had about 10 things at a time connecting and it was only his POS Linux laptop, pos Nokia and pos htc that wouldn't connect.
often changing the wireless security solves that.
Spank86
10-07-13, 08:12 PM
that was my thinking Oli, unless like spank speculated that the super hub was a bespoke bit of kit doing some fancy switching and processing (the technical shiz is beyond me at this point btw) must just be a money spinner...
It's not that. It's just that the virgin stuff connects direct to the fibre TV cable so I couldn't say either way what you could or couldn't connect to that but everything after that first box you can definitely chop and change.
Paul the 6th
10-07-13, 08:23 PM
sweet cheers dude, I'll report back once it's all connected
thefallenangel
10-07-13, 08:44 PM
Out of interest is there anyway to speed up the TV box connection as my Youtube on tv lags a bit. And +2 customers with poor wireless capabilities. Anything beyond 5m in my mums makes internet a no go and in my house about 10m. Both on the new boxes. Didn't think about the extra router idea tho.
phil24_7
10-07-13, 09:06 PM
PT6 -I have recently upgraded...well if that's hat you can call it. Fisrt off, I had no connection, or very spurradic. Then the just out of school tech came around to "fix" the problem (regret doing it last thing on a Friday as he seemed to be in a rush to finish!) all he did was replace the router and twiddle some wires (I did more to try and fix the problem than he did). That one also failed to work to which the tech/installer said it was a signal issue. I found this a little odd as I had 58-59meg when connected with a cable!
I swiftly turned off the internal WiFi and used the old router which worked perfectly, giving me 20-30meg. After a brief call to Virgin, the lovely girl informed me the automatic channel switching, isn't automatic so I should try switching that. Apparently it needs to be switched off and back on to change channels when one is too clogged!
Now to my issues. Torrents takes ages as it appears the new superhub has more invasive throttling for this type of data (this may just be a coincidence) and my wireless still gets far too slow at peak times so I need to change channels again. This is really annoying when the old one just worked out of the box!
I think I may run the old router with the new hub as it's more reliable, though this kind of defeats the point of an all-in-one box!
phil24_7
10-07-13, 09:12 PM
have to change the router settings and at the very least set up fixed IP between them.
often changing the wireless security solves that.
May give this a try, then I can run a cat6 cable downstairs and use the second router to hardwire all the TV/consols/amps to the network as well as have the more reliable wireless signal close to the areas it's used most!
Spank86
10-07-13, 09:22 PM
Out of interest is there anyway to speed up the TV box connection as my Youtube on tv lags a bit. And +2 customers with poor wireless capabilities. Anything beyond 5m in my mums makes internet a no go and in my house about 10m. Both on the new boxes. Didn't think about the extra router idea tho.
possibly not. Is it connected with ethernet, wireless or powerline(mains) adaptors?
things to try with poor wireless include changing the channel and unplugging your microwave to see if its an interference issue. 5m would be ridiculous for 10 yr old wireless routers in the absence of interference.
Spank86
10-07-13, 09:24 PM
I swiftly turned off the internal WiFi and used the old router which worked perfectly, giving me 20-30meg. After a brief call to Virgin, the lovely girl informed me the automatic channel switching, isn't automatic so I should try switching that. Apparently it needs to be switched off and back on to change channels when one is too clogged!
common problem.
You can get a free program called Inssider which will show you what channels the routers in your area are on. you can use that to pick a free channel but beware if they're all on the same channels then it may be because the others are stuffed. Channel 11 used to be the common one they were auto set to.
phil24_7
10-07-13, 10:49 PM
6 seems to be the new one. I changed to 13 first (I think) but that was nearly as bad, on 9 now but still crap at peak times! Will look at inssider to make a better choice, cheers.
Spank86
10-07-13, 11:03 PM
yeah, others did default to 6.
Interestingly american routers only go up to 11, ours expand further and 13 is a ways away from the rest in terms of spectrum so may be worse.
the reason for defaulting to 6 was it was central and 11 was it wasn't 6.
TBH "peak times" shouldn't affect wireless unless you've got interference or A LOT of hubs in your area.
Microwaves are the big one but old cordless phones, strip lighting and basically anything with a transformer can affect it as they get older.
You can get spectral analyzers for a few hundred quid but Inssider is free and gives you a bit of an idea.
Littlepeahead
11-07-13, 07:17 AM
I tried reading this thread but it made my brain melt.
I'm on Orange and when they switched to EE they sent me a cardboard box with a plastic box inside and a leaflet about how much better it would be. That was a few months ago. Currently it's in the cupboard under the TV next to the old Orange hub whatsit. Still in the wrapper. Should I bother swapping them over?
Now to my issues. Torrents takes ages as it appears the new superhub has more invasive throttling for this type of data (this may just be a coincidence) and my wireless still gets far too slow at peak times so I need to change channels again. This is really annoying when the old one just worked out of the box!
What times are you downloading and roughly how much data?
Virgin throttle when p2p data exchange goes over 2gb during peak hours which I believe is 8am to 7pm. Can be quite annoying as Xbox live counts as p2p apparently so I used to get throttled after a full days gaming.
As long as you aren't goin over that you shouldn't get throttled. If you do wait till about 8.30pm and reset the hub and bingo back to full speed. I normally do all my downloading over night to avoid this.
Unfortunately you do HAVE to use the Virgin Router (POS) box, the reason for this is that the old Virgin "MODEM" could bearly handle connection speeds above 10mbps, i used to have a 20mbps service and it lagged like nuts and constantly dropped packets, then when I got a newer Virgin router (old hub) the connection was a million times better. Like others have said, switch the superhub into modem mode and use your own kit behind it, unless your not worried about speeds etc as you have wired connections regardless (like me).
if your using P2P downloading a lot, set your upload speeds to ~15% of your download to save your upload speed killing your downlaod as upload takes priority over downloads.
Spank86
11-07-13, 02:18 PM
Currently it's in the cupboard under the TV next to the old Orange hub whatsit. Still in the wrapper. Should I bother swapping them over?
not unless you're having problems with the old one.
phil24_7
13-07-13, 01:40 PM
What times are you downloading and roughly how much data?
Virgin throttle when p2p data exchange goes over 2gb during peak hours which I believe is 8am to 7pm. Can be quite annoying as Xbox live counts as p2p apparently so I used to get throttled after a full days gaming.
As long as you aren't goin over that you shouldn't get throttled. If you do wait till about 8.30pm and reset the hub and bingo back to full speed. I normally do all my downloading over night to avoid this.
I usually download in the evening, either a few programmes or a couple films. It's slow from the get go since the new hub whereas it was blindingly quick before, even being throttled!
phil24_7
13-07-13, 01:47 PM
Like others have said, switch the superhub into modem mode and use your own kit behind it, unless your not worried about speeds etc as you have wired connections regardless (like me).
if your using P2P downloading a lot, set your upload speeds to ~15% of your download to save your upload speed killing your downlaod as upload takes priority over downloads.
I recommend this too, just want to find a router capable of 60meg (or at least getting closer to it!). That -15% thing is a good tip too, though I must admit I've always used unlimited :(.
Spank86
13-07-13, 02:09 PM
I usually download in the evening, either a few programmes or a couple films. It's slow from the get go since the new hub whereas it was blindingly quick before, even being throttled!
In theory all the throttling should be done at the exchange end not the hub end.
Traffic prioritization however is done everywhere.
capable of 60meg (or at least getting closer to it!). That -15% thing is a good tip too, though I must admit I've always used unlimited :sad:.
Upload and download on a *DSL service are completely separate, they work over different bandwidths and never the twain shall meet.
Can't however guarantee this with the virgin service, it's not something I deal with however I shall ask next time I bump into one of their engineers
I usually download in the evening, either a few programmes or a couple films. It's slow from the get go since the new hub whereas it was blindingly quick before, even being throttled!
Hmmm that is odd, have you run the set up in your torrent client to ensure the correct ports are forwarded and the speeds are set right?
That's the only thing I can think of if there is a difference tween old and new.
In theory all the throttling should be done at the exchange end not the hub end.
I was told by the engineer that the hub can build up a bit if buffer memory which can send the wrong signals back up the line and kick throttling in, hence the need to reboot every so often, any truth to this?
Spank86
13-07-13, 03:51 PM
I was told by the engineer that the hub can build up a bit if buffer memory which can send the wrong signals back up the line and kick throttling in, hence the need to reboot every so often, any truth to this?
Well, that's garbled nonsense but you can get errors on the line/With the hub that'll cause a reboot. Some hubs just lock up at times. A perfectly working hub however won't do this (if you can ever find one).
The line throttling is based on errors and dropped connections, if the exchange sees too many it will slow the speed, and again and again until they stop. Sometimes the exchange does get stuck at the slowest possible speed and very occasionally a hub reboot can clear it but its a lot less common than it was.
Thank you very much, will save myself the hassle of rebooting unless its farked then!
phil24_7
16-07-13, 07:21 AM
Hmmm that is odd, have you run the set up in your torrent client to ensure the correct ports are forwarded and the speeds are set right?
That's the only thing I can think of if there is a difference tween old and new.
Haven't done any of this since the change so will do it before I use utorrent again, cheers.
I will also change the channel tonight and re-boot the hub.
Regards
phil24_7
16-07-13, 07:21 AM
So does anyone know of a good router to use so that I can ditch the hub's wireless?
Haven't done any of this since the change so will do it before I use utorrent again, cheers.
I will also change the channel tonight and re-boot the hub.
Regards
Yeah give it a go, depending hat version of utorrent you are running you can run the tests separately.
Do the ports first and get that sorted, then once that is done run the speed so it tracks the optimum.
I used to have to actually go in and manually forward ports on my old virgin router and belkin but the super hub seems to work ok once utorrent is set
timwilky
16-07-13, 09:18 AM
there is a new VM superdud being user tested at the moment. It still isn't perfect.
Background, VM introduced the knobbled netgear hub as a response to users who wanted to do more than plug a single PC into a modem and expected VM to provide them with tech support for hardware/installs they knew nothing of.
My own advise. use the hub in modem mode. Install a decent throughput nat router/firewall. (mine will happily cope with > 600Mb) and put your own network behind that.
You do not need to use the superdud as a router. But you need either a VMG 300 or superdud 2 to get VMs cable service at a reasonable speed. Then shove an 802.11ac router to give the a reliable wifi element of the superdud
phil24_7
16-07-13, 12:58 PM
Recommends on a good home router? ie easy to set up/maintain, quick and reliable? :)
phil24_7
17-07-13, 09:25 PM
Just ordered a Cisco Linksys E3000 as a few cable/digital forums highly recommend them. The other option was an ASUS RT-N66U but they'ms a bit expensive for my pocket!
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